The Vegetarian Myth

[Joe]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

And i am not sure if i as a vegetarian contribute to the killing of animals, because i grow my own vegetables and look very carfully what i buy. I don't buy in supermarkets for example if i can avoid it and prefer little healthfood stores.

It doesn't matter if you don't contribute to the killing of animals, because you grow your own vegetables. You think that is enough to make any difference? You think that that is the MAIN way that you are STS?

The point is that you are full of assumptions about "killing" animals. You think there is a difference between killing a cow and eating an apple because an apple "will die anyway". You are so arrogant as to assume that eating an apple or carrot is 'better', less 'evil' than eating animal meat.

You do all this unconsciously to justify your unrecognised (by you) emotional need to believe that eating meat is wrong (for you) and eating vegetables is right or, at least, not so 'wrong'.

You could keep talking like this on this thread for years and you would never gain any new insight until you recognise that your vegetarianism is not a intellectual choice informed by conscious awareness of your real feelings but rather an intellectual "choice" fueled and driven by buried and unknown emotions in you.

The bottom line is that you will share the fate of the collective of humanity unless you begin to wake up to the extent to which you lie to yourself.

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

And i thought we have something like free will so i can decide what to eat. I don´t want to blame anyone for what he is eating and if i did i am sorry. It was not my intention even if it sounded like. On the other side everybody could be wrong once a while in his life most of us are not born perfect. I thought life is a kind of lesson, so we all are here to learn.

 

[Beau]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

And i thought we have something like free will so i can decide what to eat.

Don't meat-eaters deserve the same choice, without passionate arguments against by non-meat-eaters?

I don´t want to blame anyone for what he is eating and if i did i am sorry. It was not my intention even if it sounded like.

Perhaps you should think about why you came across the way you did, even if it wasn't your intention. You know what the road to hell is paved with, don't you?

On the other side everybody could be wrong once a while in his life most of us are not born perfect. I thought life is a kind of lesson, so we all are here to learn.

This is correct, but I'm not sure how or where this fits with the discussion at hand. Are you saying that you now see the benefits of eating meat, or that since anyone could be wrong, meat-eaters here might be just that, wrong?

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I did not say that meat-eaters are wrong and if please show me where. I already said more than once that everybody should eat what he wants. My statement was against industrial meat farming you can reread it. And i said i dont want to kill animals, that is my choice and has nothing to do with you. I much more feel attacked by some of you because i don´t eat meat. Some say i do destroy the environment because i am vegan. Maybe, i also have a car and use electricity. And i meant i can make mistakes in my life because i am not perfect. If i am wrong i hopefully will learn something out of it, i guess i did already.

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

What about the road to hell ?

 

[Laura]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I did not say that meat-eaters are wrong and if please show me where. I already said more than once that everybody should eat what he wants. My statement was against industrial meat farming you can reread it. And i said i dont want to kill animals, that is my choice and has nothing to do with you. I much more feel attacked by some of you because i don´t eat meat. Some say i do destroy the environment because i am vegan. Maybe, i also have a car and use electricity. And i meant i can make mistakes in my life because i am not perfect. If i am wrong i hopefully will learn something out of it, i guess i did already.

CB, had you read the entire thread, you would have realized that the issue of industrial meat farming had been MORE than covered. You would have also learned a whole lot of other things. Then, even if after learning those things, you still chose to be a vegetarian, out of respect for the position of the owners of this forum, you probably would have figured out to keep your personal beliefs - for that is what they are - about what is good for you to eat, to yourself. We aren't interested in your beliefs, we are interested only in data that leads to truth that WORKS. And in this case, that works for everyone. There are possibly some cases where a person is better off being a vegetarian, but I haven't encountered one yet.

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I already said that i was wrong not reading the whole thread before writing my post, i can not make it undone. If i could i would. And i am just responding to what other members write to me. I really have nothing against anyone of you otherwise i would not be here. I also think there are a lot more important issues to discuss.
I can stop answering posts about this topic if you wish but that would be not very polite.

 

[Stranger]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Commander Borg, you are avoiding the discussion. A discussion is based on arguments. What you said in your last post has nothing to do with this topic, and even than, it is nonsense.

And i thought we have something like free will so i can decide what to eat.

You can do what you want, nobody here wants to force you into doing anything. So may I ask why you said that? Where in this topic did anyone forced you to eat meat? Since no one did that, it seems you are distracting from the discussion and the fact that all your arguments against meat are disproved. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you can eat what you want.

I don´t want to blame anyone for what he is eating and if i did i am sorry. It was not my intention even if it sounded like.

You didn't and you know that. It seems you don't know how to react, because you can't disprove Percevals arguments. He revealed your unconscious reasons for avoiding meat are based on wrong assumptions.

On the other side everybody could be wrong once a while in his life most of us are not born perfect. I thought life is a kind of lesson, so we all are here to learn.

Again, this has nothing to do with this topic, at all. You can end every discussion with saying "Oh, wait guys, lets stop here. Everybody could be wrong, we aren't perfect. So there is no reason to discuss, at all."

It is merely your try to avoid a fact based discussion, which could lead to result that your assumptions may be wrong.

Nine of your ten arguments against meat are in fact not against meat but against the meat industry. And you may have noticed that most of us agree with you on this point. Simply because the meat industry indeed is polluting the environment and torturing the animals.

It is already said that there are differences how animals are raised and one can choose grass-feed organic meat of local farms, which support the life of the animal, the environment and the health of the consumer. How animals are raised has nothing to do with the discussion about health.

So in the end, your are free to eat what you want, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. When examining the facts, there is no doubt that there are a lot of health benefits in consuming meat and avoiding it is quite suicidal. Secondly, life, and so humans, feed on life on this planet, you can't change the reality, regardless what lifeform you consume.

[quote author=Commander Borg]I can stop answering posts about this topic if you wish but that would be not very polite. [/quote]

It is impolite to distract from the discussion. First of all you have to realize that facts and opinions are to different thing and the latter won't help anyone here.

Edit: This is not against you, just about helping you to see things more clearly. I really appreciate that you deal with this topic, though you never ate meat. I really know how you feel, since I was a vegetarian myself. And only when I realized that I don't help anyone with avoiding meat and that it is just about social programming and childhood trauma, I changed my diet.

 

[truth seeker]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

And i thought we have something like free will so i can decide what to eat. I don´t want to blame anyone for what he is eating and if i did i am sorry. It was not my intention even if it sounded like. On the other side everybody could be wrong once a while in his life most of us are not born perfect. I thought life is a kind of lesson, so we all are here to learn.

For me, this is close to the crux of it. I think the reason so many of us can be reluctant to give up our programs (vegetarian or otherwise) is because we don't feel comfortable with being wrong. Through our narcissistic wounding, we can equate being wrong with being bad and feeling blamed. It is only when we let go of the importance we attach to being right/good, that we loosen the grip of our programs and begin to be unencumbered by them.

Added: The full saying is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

The thing is you are right i do not have any real facts if meat eating is good or bad. That was only my assumption. I was not familiar with this topic. I better had not started it. I am raised as a vegetarian, my whole family is vegetarian. Not only my parents even my grandparents were (not all). Almost all doctors say if you are sick you should eat less meat, you hear a lot of being said that meat eating is not very healthy, doctors say one should eat more vegetables or fruits. This is the first time i hear the opposite and i cant argue because i don´t have the facts, i am no doctor and no scientist. Well i learned in school that you can´t survive without meat. I did not belief it because my parents and grandparents did survive and had a quite healthy life. On the other side i never said in this forum that meat eating is unhealthy, again: it was not meant as a health issue. I am not vegan because of my health like many vegetarians. I just see the destruction from industrial farming but that also includes crop farming etc Does anyone of you know Greg Page the CEO of Cargill Minnesota ? These guys destroying the environment. (I have only a german link here: http://lupocattivoblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/greg-page/) And i am not thinking i am doing anything wrong by not eating meet, that is just my decision like yours is to eat meat.

 

[anart]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

The thing is you are right i do not have any real facts if meat eating is good or bad. That was only my assumption. I was not familiar with this topic. I better had not started it. I am raised as a vegetarian, my whole family is vegetarian. Not only my parents even my grandparents were (not all). Almost all doctors say if you are sick you should eat less meat, you hear a lot of being said that meat eating is not very healthy, doctors say one should eat more vegetables or fruits. This is the first time i hear the opposite and i cant argue because i don´t have the facts, i am no doctor and no scientist. Well i learned in school that you can´t survive without meat. I did not belief it because my parents and grandparents did survive and had a quite healthy life. On the other side i never said in this forum that meat eating is unhealthy, again: it was not meant as a health issue. I am not vegan because of my health like many vegetarians. I just see the destruction from industrial farming but that also includes crop farming etc Does anyone of you know Greg Page the CEO of Cargill Minnesota ? These guys destroying the environment. (I have only a german link here: http://lupocattivoblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/greg-page/) And i am not thinking i am doing anything wrong by not eating meet, that is just my decision like yours is to eat meat.

Have you read this entire thread yet? If not - stop posting - go to page one and read the entire thing, including referenced articles. Then, return and post if you'd like, but if you cannot post without going in circles on this topic, then perhaps it's best you refrain. What matters here are FACTS. This thread contains facts, so please read it - entirely.

 

[Beau]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Almost all doctors say if you are sick you should eat less meat, you hear a lot of being said that meat eating is not very healthy, doctors say one should eat more vegetables or fruits.

Why would you trust what doctors say about diet? They aren't taught anything about that, they can diagnose disease but aren't taught to be nutritionists. They follow whatever the mainstream thought is and what they are told by "nutrition experts" like the FDA. Do you really think something like the food pyramid is what's supposed to be eaten? If so, well, you've wandered into the wrong bar, I'm afraid.

 

[Commander Borg]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Almost all doctors say if you are sick you should eat less meat, you hear a lot of being said that meat eating is not very healthy, doctors say one should eat more vegetables or fruits.

Why would you trust what doctors say about diet? They aren't taught anything about that, they can diagnose disease but aren't taught to be nutritionists. They follow whatever the mainstream thought is and what they are told by "nutrition experts" like the FDA. Do you really think something like the food pyramid is what's supposed to be eaten? If so, well, you've wandered into the wrong bar, I'm afraid.

I am more afraid of a lot of doctors than anything else. But whom can you trust ? The scientists ? They write what the companies like them to write who are paying them. I guess you have to experience it yourself. If i would give something about the food pyramid i would not be a vegan.

 

[anart]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I am more afraid of a lot of doctors than anything else. But whom can you trust ? The scientists ? They write what the companies like them to write who are paying them. I guess you have to experience it yourself. If i would give something about the food pyramid i would not be a vegan.

Have you read this entire thread yet? If not - stop posting - go to page one and read the entire thing, including referenced articles. Then, return and post if you'd like, but if you cannot post without going in circles on this topic, then perhaps it's best you refrain. What matters here are FACTS. This thread contains facts, so please read it - entirely.


Please don't post in this thread again until you have read it and all linked articles within it completely.

 

[Joe]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

A relevant article from Sott.net

French vegans in dock over baby's death

Tue, 29 Mar 2011 08:08 CDT

Two vegans who fed their 11-month-old daughter only mother's milk went on trial in northern France on Tuesday charged with neglect after their baby died suffering from vitamin deficiency.

Sergine and Joel Le Moaligou, whose vegan diet forbids consuming any animal product including eggs and cow's milk, called the emergency services in March 2008 after becoming worried about their baby Louise's listlessness.

When the ambulance arrived at their home in Saint-Maulvis, a small village 150 kilometres (90 miles) north of Paris, the baby was already dead.

The ambulance workers called the police because the child was pale and thin, weighing 5.7 kilos (12.5 pounds) compared to an average eight kilos for her age.

The baby had only been fed on the milk of her mother, who was aged 37 at the time.

An autopsy showed that Louise was suffering from a vitamin A and B12 deficiency which experts say increases a child's sensitivity to infection and can be due to an unbalanced diet.

"The problem of vitamin B12 deficiency could be linked to the mother's diet," said Anne-Laure Sandretto, deputy prosecutor in the city of Amiens where the trial is taking place.

The couple has been charged with "neglect or food deprivation followed by death" and face up to 30 years in prison if convicted.