The Vegetarian Myth

[dugdeep]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Remember that the author is not suggesting a fiber free diet. In fact he is talking about a diet low in (processed) fiber....

Have you read the entire book? I am in the target population for which he suggests a fiber-free diet (perhaps not permanently, depending upon what healing takes place over time). Perhaps you are not.

We have not, that I am aware of, had very much discussion yet about this book. Other books we use here have proven to be very helpful for some things, but not everything in them checks out. I have little doubt that that will be the case here as well.

I understand your concern Megan. I'm about a third of the way through the book (you're a fast reader!) and I'm getting some weird vibes from some of what he's saying. He doesn't seem to understand the physiology behind the Atkins diet, (or other low-carb diets), for one thing. He's essentially a calorie counter trying to fit that approach in with the low-carb approach and seems to be basing his negative viewpoint of the Atkins diet on theory rather than practice.

What he's saying about water is a bit of a shock too, and I think I'll need some backup before I start lowering water consumption, particularly considering I'm detoxing regularly (something he doesn't address).

There is definitely some good info here, though. I won't comment more, since I haven't finished the book and he might come back to some of these points later. I think his overall premise is solid and I'm looking forward to his recommendations on how to safely ween yourself off fibre-dependence without suffering constipation.

 

[mcb]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I understand your concern Megan. I'm about a third of the way through the book (you're a fast reader!) and I'm getting some weird vibes from some of what he's saying. He doesn't seem to understand the physiology behind the Atkins diet, (or other low-carb diets), for one thing. He's essentially a calorie counter trying to fit that approach in with the low-carb approach and seems to be basing his negative viewpoint of the Atkins diet on theory rather than practice.

What he's saying about water is a bit of a shock too, and I think I'll need some backup before I start lowering water consumption, particularly considering I'm detoxing regularly (something he doesn't address).

There is definitely some good info here, though. I won't comment more, since I haven't finished the book and he might come back to some of these points later. I think his overall premise is solid and I'm looking forward to his recommendations on how to safely ween yourself off fibre-dependence without suffering constipation.

My "gut feeling" is that he is right on track with the water thing. I have always been skeptical about the advice to drink that much water, ever since my vegan cooking class in 1995 recommended "flushing clear" each day (i.e. drink enough water to make your urine clear). My body says "what the hell are you trying to do to yourself" when I drink all that water, so I don't. It's one of those oft-repeated but never validated claims that people like to pass on. It's right up there with "we only use 10% of our brains."

I have long suspected that you have to take into account water intake from all sources, and I had not even thought about water being synthesized internally. What I have learned to do is drink plenty of water and take supplemental minerals just before a FIR sauna. My body was very clear about that.

I have never had an interest in the Atkins or South Beach diets and if there are problems with that part of the book I wouldn't notice. All I can say for sure so far is that this book is the closest thing to a User's Guide for the human GI tract that I have ever seen, that it has answered a number of my questions about what is going on in there such as the sudden "urge" sometime after a meal, and that lowering my fiber intake has reduced the gas and bloating like nothing else I have tried in the past year. It is very clear to me after only a few days that there is a connection.

Of course lowering fiber is the one thing I have literally feared trying, with good reason, so I havent tried it previously to see how it affects the symptoms. Frankly, it never occurred to me to try it, although I was well aware from observation that "roughage" could cause bleeding on the way out. I am not sure what happens next, but I have only reduced fiber, not eliminated it (I am not following the recommendations in the book at this time), and hopefully whatever it is won't be too painful.

 

[Laura]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

The fiber issue is one I was pretty stuck on too - until the Christmas holidays this year when Atriedes spent over two weeks in the hospital and nearly lost his colon because of fiber. Some people are just "canaries in the mine" and their bodies react strongly to what only does slow, cumulative damage in the rest of us. I observed what mostly meat has done for him in terms of healing (after the gastroenterologist told us that the low residue/no fiber diet is what they prescribe to clean the colon!), and we've all been experimenting ourselves.

As I've said before, I still like my veggies and I'm not giving them up entirely, and Psyche is going through this text and checking sources, but we ARE trying out eating more meat and "regularizing" the colon following some of these suggestions. So far, it's pretty impressive. His remarks about what ought to be coming out and how are quite interesting, too.

Of course, he does, as dugdeep says, talk about the calorie thing and doesn't put as much emphasis on eliminating gluten and dairy and a few other things as we do, but the general trend of what we have all been learning seems to be toward more meat, fewer veggies, fruits in season, minimal grains. Somebody who is ill with any kind of digestive issues probably ought to go to the mostly meat option until the colon heals. And some people, obviously, as "canaries in the mine" probably should eat mostly meat all the time, all their lives.

His comments about why and how people "lose touch with their colon" are useful and true as far as I can see. We send kids off to school very young and they start creating conditions to be constipated then and that sets them off on a life-path of colon misery. Then, we give them antibiotics and that just makes things worse.

Anyway, we are having some good success with the reduction (and in some cases, elimination) of fiber from our diets. Like re-learning how to sleep properly, it takes some thinking, adjusting, and a few props in the beginning to get things back on track.

 

[Ollie]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

What he's saying about water is a bit of a shock too, and I think I'll need some backup before I start lowering water consumption, particularly considering I'm detoxing regularly (something he doesn't address).

There is definitely some good info here, though. I won't comment more, since I haven't finished the book and he might come back to some of these points later. I think his overall premise is solid and I'm looking forward to his recommendations on how to safely ween yourself off fibre-dependence without suffering constipation.

My "gut feeling" is that he is right on track with the water thing. I have always been skeptical about the advice to drink that much water, ever since my vegan cooking class in 1995 recommended "flushing clear" each day (i.e. drink enough water to make your urine clear). My body says "what the hell are you trying to do to yourself" when I drink all that water, so I don't. It's one of those oft-repeated but never validated claims that people like to pass on. It's right up there with "we only use 10% of our brains."

I have long suspected that you have to take into account water intake from all sources, and I had not even thought about water being synthesized internally. What I have learned to do is drink plenty of water and take supplemental minerals just before a FIR sauna. My body was very clear about that.

I'm still drinking plenty of water (according to my body mass, as posted elsewhere), and I've been detoxing for well on two years, and my body is still constantly telling me to drink more water, a dry mouth and lips indicating dehydration, and this is based on getting my sluggish liver back on track, adjusting to eating a lot more meat and fat, etc. And, this is on top of taking a reasonable amount of Vit C and Magnesium that my body tells me to take.

 

[mcb]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

The fiber issue is one I was pretty stuck on too - until the Christmas holidays this year when Atriedes spent over two weeks in the hospital and nearly lost his colon because of fiber. Some people are just "canaries in the mine" and their bodies react strongly to what only does slow, cumulative damage in the rest of us. I observed what mostly meat has done for him in terms of healing (after the gastroenterologist told us that the low residue/no fiber diet is what they prescribe to clean the colon!), and we've all been experimenting ourselves.

Atriedes' experience is looming large in my memory. I really don't want to go there or anywhere near, but the "standard medical advice" can take people like me right down that road. Fiber Menace indicates that in the US, more fiber might have been the medical recommendation, but thankfully you are not in the US and it sounds like you were spared having to deal with that misinformation on top of everything else.

So far I am doing fine with reduced fiber. My gut is definitely feeling better and things are still moving OK, not perfect but good enough for now. I eliminated hemp milk from my shakes (it had added soluble fiber) and increased my magnesium and vitamin C supplements a bit. The only fiber in the shakes now is from berries and bananas. The new hemp protein is 70% protein and zero fiber. I don't want to make huge adjustments to what I eat all at one time, so this seemed like the best way to go for now.

I noticed that the book didn't take into account magnesium and vitamin C supplements, though it mentioned using Epsom Salts as a laxative (no thanx). It will take some doing to validate the information and put it together with the other information we have, but I think this will be a major step forward for those of us that were ODing on fiber and have had chronic "intestinal distress" (as I have come to call it).

After this, I am not even a little bit vegetarian. I feel somewhat betrayed by all the misinformation I was given earlier in my life by people I trusted that promoted vegetarianism/veganism but, as I said before, it has been a good lesson and I am certainly having "fun."

 

[mcb]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I'm still drinking plenty of water (according to my body mass, as posted elsewhere), and I've been detoxing for well on two years, and my body is still constantly telling me to drink more water, a dry mouth and lips indicating dehydration, and this is based on getting my sluggish liver back on track, adjusting to eating a lot more meat and fat, etc. And, this is on top of taking a reasonable amount of Vit C and Magnesium that my body tells me to take.

I drink more water too when I have any symptoms of dehydration. The problem comes when you blindly follow blanket advice to "drink lots of water" even when your body tells you it is already drowning in it! I am sure that water needs will vary from person to person and from day to day.

I have increased my water intake substantially as a part of detoxing, but the only time I approach the "recommended" volumes is on FIR sauna days when I drink an extra quart (give or take) beforehand. When I have to pee so often that I can't get my work done, I know I am drinking too much, and that is exactly what happened when I followed the "recommendations." It also left me feeling "washed out."

 

[D Rusak]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I just retook the UM Solution tests today and found that in several areas my scores were lowered. I took them in September 2010 before I had started eating meat for the first time in 13 or 14 years (I had started eating occasional fish a few months prior, but not much). As I've had a high amount of stress the last few months and have been rationing supplements due to lack of funds, I can only assume that the change to eating meat regularly improved my scores. It really couldn't have been anything else.

Thought this would be of interest.

 

[mcb]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I just retook the UM Solution tests today and found that in several areas my scores were lowered. I took them in September 2010 before I had started eating meat for the first time in 13 or 14 years (I had started eating occasional fish a few months prior, but not much). As I've had a high amount of stress the last few months and have been rationing supplements due to lack of funds, I can only assume that the change to eating meat regularly improved my scores. It really couldn't have been anything else.

Thought this would be of interest.

I wouldn't be surprised if increasing meat and fat and reducing fiber didn't improve a lot of peoples' scores, especially in cases where the original quiz results didn't seem to point to a particular area.

I have spent a lot of money on supplements over the last 6 months without seeing a lot of results. In contrast, a reduction in fiber intake brought about a major, immediate (after 2-3 days) improvement. I am staying with a basic set of supplements including a multi-vitamin/mineral and a few others (fish oil, "detox cocktail," etc.) but otherwise I am including supplements only when there is a specific need.

 

[Laura]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I wouldn't be surprised if increasing meat and fat and reducing fiber didn't improve a lot of peoples' scores, especially in cases where the original quiz results didn't seem to point to a particular area.

I have spent a lot of money on supplements over the last 6 months without seeing a lot of results. In contrast, a reduction in fiber intake brought about a major, immediate (after 2-3 days) improvement. I am staying with a basic set of supplements including a multi-vitamin/mineral and a few others (fish oil, "detox cocktail," etc.) but otherwise I am including supplements only when there is a specific need.

I agree. I've cut way back on supplements. I think that eating meats and fats keeps the liver exercised and on detox mode. Plus, the fats seem to be what is needed to manufacture hormones and my adrenal issues are fading. I'm also able to sleep at night without melatonin (getting the room really dark helped there, too), and reducing fiber seems to have calmed my insides down a lot. Like you, Megan, I'm pushing 60 and I reckon I've got a lot of damage to deal with. I didn't get this way overnight and I won't be fixed up overnight either.

I take minerals pretty regularly, vitamin D3 and E, and of course, the magnesium and vitamin C cocktail with NAC about every day.

I have to make a point of eating the fat on my meat rather than cutting it away and leaving it on the plate which I did habitually for years.

 

[mcb]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

...I have to make a point of eating the fat on my meat rather than cutting it away and leaving it on the plate which I did habitually for years.

When I was growing up the "excess" fat was one of my favorite foods! Of course then I was discouraged from eating it. Today, if you are eating "conventional" meat you may be taking your life in your hands to eat the fat, but with organic and natural meats we can enjoy it again.

Just be sure that the meat is what it claims to be. Ours is "local" (regional, really) and has a distinctly different taste from the corn-fed hormone-soaked variety. Some of it costs up to $30 a pound (but not usually that high), but it is cheap compared to the potential medical bills from eating the other stuff.

Fiber Menace talks about not eating meat at every meal because of the amount of internal effort spent digesting it. Basically it takes 4-6 hours to digest meat so if you eat meat three times a day you will be digesting it for up to 18 hours a day. Does that seem right? What makes sense from a "paleo" perspective?

I do see that there can be problems eating too many small "meals." Often, if I simply taste food while I am cooking in the evening it triggers something that causes me not to be hungry by the time I serve dinner (my mother would have said I "spoiled my appetite"). From my observation it seems to be better to not taste while cooking, at least in the evening. There is something in the book that might relate to this, but I don't remember what it said at the moment.

 

[Laura]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Fiber Menace talks about not eating meat at every meal because of the amount of internal effort spent digesting it. Basically it takes 4-6 hours to digest meat so if you eat meat three times a day you will be digesting it for up to 18 hours a day. Does that seem right? What makes sense from a "paleo" perspective?

For me, that kind of solved itself since I only eat if I'm hungry and that is usually only twice a day.

 

[mcb]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

For me, that kind of solved itself since I only eat if I'm hungry and that is usually only twice a day.

Oh, I hadn't thought of that. :)

If I ate a better lunch (i.e. meat and maybe a few veggies instead of the Ultrashake) I think I wouldn't need another meal. There are a lot of nights when I eat very little. I still cook for my housemate at night, but more and more we don't eat the same things anyway and if I don't eat it is less work. I could also cook myself lunch for the next day. This could work. (No dancing banana yet, but maybe soon.)

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

For me, that kind of solved itself since I only eat if I'm hungry and that is usually only twice a day.

Oh, I hadn't thought of that. :)

And that seems to be the natural hunter-gatherer way, going out into the wild twice a day to get the necessary nourishment. Our bodies remember. Funny how nature works that way, huh?

 

[theos]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

Since moving to low carb/fiber and upping the meat and fat I've noticed several things that mesh with what is said on gutsense.org. (I'm still waiting for my copy of Fiber Menace to arrive.)

I eat just two meals a day. My stools resemble #4 and #5 on the Bristol Stool Scale where before they resembled #2 or #3 and I would have bleeding at times. I drink less water because I'm less thirsty and I've had way fewer instances of getting up to pee in the middle of the night. Also, when I was eating more carbs it was like every time I had to urinate it was a major emergency. So much so that I would barely make it to the toilet in time.

Over the weekend I had several helpings of pea soup (which I could eat before with no problem) after weeks of just eating root veggies on ocassion. On Monday my mouth was incredibly dry and my thirst was unquenchable. I also ended up with a two day headache. When I eat mostly meat and fat my mouth feels cleaner, teeth smoother. At times I forget I have to brush my teeth.

I've noticed changes with my cat too. When I switched him from dry kibble to canned organic he now barely drinks any water at all. With the dry food he would really lap up the water. He also sheds a whole lot less and I haven't seen him cough up a hairball in quite some time. With the dry food he would vomit frequently.

Edit: addition, clarity

 

[RyanX]

Re: The Vegetarian Stance

I've noticed changes with my cat too. When I switched him from dry kibble to canned organic he now barely drinks any water at all. With the dry food he would really lap up the water. He also sheds a whole lot less and I haven't seen him cough up a hairball in quite some time. With the dry food he would vomit frequently.

Interesting... I just switched my cat from dry cat food to canned recently too. Did you have a tough time converting him to the new food?

Mine really resisted for a couple days. I was almost afraid he was going to have problems if he didn't eat something. I finally had to break down and feed him the dried cat food and mix in a little of the meat and ease him into the new diet slowly. He's now eating just the canned food, but he sure didn't like it at first! I can already see a difference already in the way he acts, he seems more calm yet alert. And yes, he also drinks a lot less water now. I recall reading somewhere that cats in the wild actually get most of their liquid from the prey they consume, so eating wet food from a can makes more sense - in theory. Anyways, this is probably a conversation for another thread. Thanks for the report!

And good to hear the diet changes are going well for you too! :)