The Vegetarian Myth

We have a hige provlem with feral animals here in Australia, mainly through ignorance of those that released them in the first place (foxes, dogs, rabbits, cats ect.). They are totally destructive to the environment - at least to pastoralists and farmers. Is it wrong to hunt these animals to try restore sort of a balance? A lot of these animals can't be eaten (maybe dog food) and their skins are unusable.

What do you think?
 
herondancer said:
NormaRegula said:
herondancer said:
whitecoast said:
What's also quite telling IMO is that vegetarianism in the west didn't really become mainstream as an idea until agriculture moved away from local ranch production to mass production in feedlots. Most people no longer interact with food animals, and often only experience human-animal interactions with pets and companion animals. So in modern times there's an artificial separation of animals we love from animals we eat. To a vegan it's inconceivable that you can love animals you intend to eat, but such an interaction would have been commonplace in ancient animal domesticators and hunters.

Indeed. Many Native American ceremonies revolved around expressing gratitude to the animals that sustained them. The ceremonies expressed the idea that the tribe was able to eat only because the prey animal (bison, deer, salmon etc.) was moved by a sense of compassion for the humans that were so ill-equipped to survive in the world. The animal agreeing to be sustenance for humans was their way of serving the Creator. The human's obligation was to take no more than needed, to waste nothing, and thank the Creator and the animal for providing them with food.

This is an Anishnabe (Ojibwa/Chippewa) belief. My late father was part Ojibwa and an accomplished hunter. He taught the concept of giving thanks to the animals who sustained us with their sacrifice to me and my siblings. When he hosted a tv show in the 1960s entitled Michigan Outdoors, he was able to expound this theory to mostly white guy hunters on the air, at Ducks Unlimited banquets, and hunter-related events. The hunters seemed to like this idea. :) My father also believed one should only hunt for food and clothing skins and not for pure sport. He encouraged sport hunters to donate their meat, bones and skins to those who would make use of them.

How great that your dad could have a opportunity to change the views of sport hunters. I think indigenous beliefs about the proper relations between humans and animals were pretty consistent across the nations. I heard it as a story of Antelope, and read about the ceremonies the Haida of west coast Canada do welcome the spring salmon run and the Cree dances for the Bison. The theme is always gratitude.

It was a good teaching my dad gave to others back then. According to my sister who lives in Michigan, one of the organizations my dad helped found still disperses venison, wild game and skins to those who want these items. Pretty cool.

nicklebleu said:
We have a hige provlem with feral animals here in Australia, mainly through ignorance of those that released them in the first place (foxes, dogs, rabbits, cats ect.). They are totally destructive to the environment - at least to pastoralists and farmers. Is it wrong to hunt these animals to try restore sort of a balance? A lot of these animals can't be eaten (maybe dog food) and their skins are unusable.

What do you think?

My own take on this is the hunting of these animals is not for pure sport...so the idea of eating or using their skins may not be an issue. If a fox came into my hen house every night, despite more and more security measures, I'd probably have to do something about it. Same with bears who develop a taste for human food due to the carelessness of humans. For survival's sake, sometimes it may be necessary to cull a dangerous, destructive animal or especially a species that were introduced into an ecosystem without a higher predator animal to keep their numbers in check.

The situation in Florida where illegal Burmese python pets were let loose into the Everglades and multiplied comes into play. I personally have no qualms about those beasties being hunted down and destroyed as they are very destructive to the area. I guess the python skins could be used, but then I'm not overly-fond of snakes or snakeskin items so my thoughts may be skewed.
 
From NPR yesterday and going around the web today:
http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/05/19/478645426/humans-are-meathooked-but-not-designed-for-meat-eating

Because, you know, our canine teeth prove it.
 
https://fr.sott.net/article/28310-Etre-vegan-peut-il-vous-tuer-en-haute-montagne-Oui

A pair of Australians vegans wanted to prove that their diet does not prevent climb Everest. Unfortunately, the girl died, her husband was hospitalized.

The idea was commendable. Proving that being vegan does not stop to realize certain sporting achievements. Cross the seven highest peaks of the world, including Everest, for example. This is the challenge that was launched a couple of Australian scientists, vegans, that is to say that no product or eat food from animals or their operation.

But the challenge of the couple turned to tragedy. Maria Strydom, 34, passed away during the descent. She died of a pulmonary embolism related to mountain sickness. There is no evidence that diet is implicated in his death. 'After reaching the summit yesterday, she said she felt very weak and have an energy loss (...) Signs of mountain sickness,' said a sherpa who accompanied the couple to AFP.

'Prove that vegans can do everything'

Before his ascent of Everest last of the seven stages of challenge, Maria Strydom gave an interview at the University of Melbourne. 'People have a distorted image of vegans, they think we are malnourished and weak. We will prove that vegans can do everything, and even more,' she explained.

Her husband also suffered harm montages, he was hospitalized but is now out of danger. 'Physically he's better, but he is devastated by the death of his wife. The two of them were not amateurs, they were very experienced,' explained the father of Maria, in the Time column.

Since the beginning of the season in March, five people died on Mount Everest. More than 300 since the first ascent in 1953.
 
azamat7r said:
It discusses healthy eating, particularly vegeterian and breatharianizm (translated into English).

Vegetarianism is not healthy eating. It is anti-physiological and dangerous for people's health. It is irresponsible to recommend it. Please do read the recommended material. Knowledge protects, ignorance endangers.
 
Yupo said:
From NPR yesterday and going around the web today:
http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/05/19/478645426/humans-are-meathooked-but-not-designed-for-meat-eating

Because, you know, our canine teeth prove it.

Gently open a (calm) dog's jaw, and there at the back will be the carnassial teeth, "blade-like and sharp and perfect for slicing meat." Lions and tigers, racoons and house cats — all carnivores — have them too. We don't.

This argument is completely bogus. Human don't have dentition to slice meat because primitive human used one hand holding a sharp tool to slice meat and the other hand to bring piece of meat to the mouth.

There is a reason why human have no claw, no fur, no especially good nightvision, not a great sense of smell, does not run very fast and not especially strong. The reason is that man evolved the most lethal organ of all animals, the brain. Human brain allowed communication leading to cooperation, it allowed to design and use tools to hunt and procure housing and use fire. It also allowed wearing clothes, resulting in adaptation to changing climate...
 
Gently open a (calm) dog's jaw, and there at the back will be the carnassial teeth, "blade-like and sharp and perfect for slicing meat." Lions and tigers, racoons and house cats — all carnivores — have them too. We don't.

To the individual that sent me that NPR story (and subsequently asked for my advice on doing a keto-vegan diet), I sent this image of some other carnivore teeth that don't appear to be designed for slicing meat.
 

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Yupo said:
Gently open a (calm) dog's jaw, and there at the back will be the carnassial teeth, "blade-like and sharp and perfect for slicing meat." Lions and tigers, racoons and house cats — all carnivores — have them too. We don't.

To the individual that sent me that NPR story (and subsequently asked for my advice on doing a keto-vegan diet), I sent this image of some other carnivore teeth that don't appear to be designed for slicing meat.

Good one Yupo! Not to forget that pigs, which are omnivores like humans, have teeth very similar to us. And they eat everything - from plants to bugs, insects and even carcasses.

pigdom_lat.jpg



This "argument" is really stupid on many levels...
 
The other thing that jumped out at me from the NPR piece was the bit about humans being (all of a sudden) designed. It gave me a good belly laugh, considering the source.
 
My theory about human evolution, meat eating and vegan apparent traits is that human came from some monkeys similar to present day monkeys that were mostly eating succulent leafs and some bugs here and there, living happily up in tree inside jungle, completely adapted to a vegan lifestyle.

Then came major climatic disruptions at onset of Quaternary glaciation 2.58Myr ago causing major evolutionary pressure. The vast existing jungle then began to shrink to become steppe (grassland plains). More and more primitive monkeys were forced to try to live in these expanding grass lands.

Evolutionary pressure made these primitive vegan monkeys to adapt to a new lifestyle, hunting grass feeding animals. The best way to survive in such changing conditions were versatility and adaptability under short intervals. The mean to achieve this were provided by natural selection favoring a powerfull brain.

Quaternary glaciation resulted in frequent advance and retreat of glaciers causing never ending climatic disruptions. Specialized animals like sharp toothed fur animals could not change their "tooling" within a short time but primitive human could make tools and wear clothing when it is cold, then remove it when temperature is too hot, allowing them to do persistence hunting.

Since we came from a primitive ancestor that was vegan, this is why we still have "apparent" traits of being vegan, but we evolved for the last ~2Myr being meat eaters, only recently (~15kyr max) that human began agriculture, this a too short interval to readapt to a new way of feeding...
 
Personnellement, je préfère les théories d'Anton Parks dont j'ai lu tous les livres en Français... Il en existe en Anglais...

I personally prefer the theories of Anton Parks I've read every book in French. . . There are in English. . .
 
PERLOU said:
I personally prefer the theories of Anton Parks I've read every book in French. . . There are in English. . .

I must admit Anton Parks's theories are much more colorfull than mine...
 
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