The Vegetarian Myth

One of the reasons many vegetarians choose to avoid meat is because of 'animal cruelty.' They are outraged when people who eat meat don't feel guilty eating animals. So the joke is a play on the attitude of 'meat eaters,' as if they reacted like vegetarians towards meat.
'Killing' a vegetable is like killing an animal, except that vegetarians don't view it that way, which is hypocritical in my opinion. It's an STS world—no need to pity the natural order of things.
i do not recall why i said je ne comprends pas... browsing this time, je comprends tout de suite
 
One of the reasons many vegetarians choose to avoid meat is because of 'animal cruelty.' They are outraged when people who eat meat don't feel guilty eating animals. So the joke is a play on the attitude of 'meat eaters,' as if they reacted like vegetarians towards meat.
'Killing' a vegetable is like killing an animal, except that vegetarians don't view it that way, which is hypocritical in my opinion. It's an STS world—no need to pity the natural order of things.
When I was 16 I spent a month in the Colorado Rockies with an organization called Outward Bound. At the end of our 28 day "outing" we had rabbit for dinner. As part of the course it was required we killed our meal for the evening. Working in pairs one would hold the live rabbit by the legs and ears stretching it taught. The other person would, swiftly, deftly, and with as much force as possible karate chop the rabbit in the back of the neck. The purpose was to make us aware of where and how our animal meats were produced. After 47 years that lesson has stayed with me and I am always thankful for the loin, rib, or leg of whatever animal I happen to be consuming. I also include the seafood in there too!
 
The thing about this whole debate is that we ought to dislike any 'kill for sustenance' mechanism. Certain plants regenerate the edible parts by default without needing to be rooted up, killed and replanted. The whole notion of of predatory cycles gives credence to us being a part of 'middle earth' at best. If the primary way to transfer energy is through death of organisms transferring energy, earth might even masquerade as a middle planet while being way down on the spectrum, close to a hellish planet.
 
The thing about this whole debate is that we ought to dislike any 'kill for sustenance' mechanism. Certain plants regenerate the edible parts by default without needing to be rooted up, killed and replanted. The whole notion of of predatory cycles gives credence to us being a part of 'middle earth' at best. If the primary way to transfer energy is through death of organisms transferring energy, earth might even masquerade as a middle planet while being way down on the spectrum, close to a hellish planet.

Well, J.G. Bennet wrote that the first freedom in the Work could be described as freedom from like and dislike, which are often based on programming. This comes when we learn observe reality as it actually is, and adapt ourselves accordingly. That includes eating meat, which is normal for humans. Without it, we get very sick. That's a major clue about what we should like or dislike in an objective sense. It's one of the rules of the school, like it or not.

I think part of the veganism and vegetarianism thing comes from the fact that lots of us live in a very death-phobic culture. A lot of consequences flow from that, including our likes and dislikes. I've thought that with the widespread fear of death, there's also a widespread fear of killing. That includes killing for sustenance. I think it comes from lack of education or opportunity in approaching the unknown of death. We don't understand that not all killing is bad, because not all death is bad. Death is what creates life. The C's recommended reading the book Women Who Run With the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola-Estes, and in it she calls for understanding the Life/Death/Life nature of existence. Can't have one without the other:

In much of western culture, the original character of the Death nature has been covered over by various dogmas and doctrines until it is split off from its other half, Life. We have erroneously been trained to accept a broken form of one of the most profound and basic aspects of the wild nature. We have been taught that death is always followed by more death. It is simply not so, death is always in the process of incubating new life, even when one’s existence has been cut down to the bones.

Rather than seeing the archetypes of Death and Life as opposites, they must be held together as the left and right side of a single thought. It is true that within a single love relationship there are many endings. Yet, somehow and somewhere in the delicate layers of the being that is created when two people love one another, there is both a heart and breath. While one side of the heart empties, the other fills. When one breath runs out, another begins.

We also have this linear program that death is final that Laura mentioned in The Wave. Whereas the C's say that all souls recycle, 2D animals returning to their Soul pool. And we might also say that our food animals also have a Soul mission while being here. In some Native American traditions, it is understood that the deer aren't here by accident, but by part of a grand design - the deer accept their part in their grand design. They accept that will be food for us, and others, and in return the deer get to be prolific breeders and enjoy an ongoing existence as our companions. Our part of the deal is to respect them and give thanks to them for their sacrifice, their willingness to come here to die so we can live. In the West, this thanksgiving for our meat is expressed in the story of the Patron Saint of Hunters, Hubertus, who was out hunting one day and came across a vision of a glowing buck with a cross between his antlers. This buck dictated to him the first terms of ethical hunting practices.

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To the old Christians, the cross between the antlers was understood to be a direct connection between the sacrifice of the deer and the sacrifice of Jesus. Both were seen to be holy in some way, as both sacrificed their lives for ours. This biblical connection is alluded to in session from the C's:

Okay. Now, you made a remark about the diet that is normal for the human being. And I know {name redacted} and a lot of people - not just {name redacted}, but a lot of people - have a problem with a diet that requires you to consume the flesh of other creatures. And I know that we’ve read what Lierre Keith has written about it, and it’s a very moving statement about life and earth and so on and so forth. But I’d like to know if there’s something a little more esoteric that we could understand about this? I mean, I don’t understand why and how a person can achieve spiritual growth, which is what you seem to be implying throughout all of this stuff that we’ve been learning, from eating meat. How many other groups have taken a vegetarian pathway and said that this is… I mean, aside from the fact that we now know that agriculture and vegetables and the owning of the land is pure STS destruction… What about fruit? Well of course they didn’t have fruit then. Like everybody, I’m having a little problem with this. So can you help me out here?

A: You know the saying: Only through the shedding of blood is there remission of sins?

Q: (L) Yes.

A: And what about: Take eat, this is my body?

Q: (L) Yes.

A: And: Take, drink, this is my blood?

Q: (L) Yes. (Burma) So it sounds like they’re saying that there’s a hidden thing in the whole resurrection or salvation by the blood thing. That agriculture is evil and we could return by going on an animal-based diet?

A: No not exactly. When humankind “fell” into gross matter, a way was needed to return. This way simply is a manifestation of the natural laws. Consciousness must “eat” also. This is a natural function of the life giving nature of the environment in balance. The Earth is the Great Mother who gives her body, literally, in the form of creatures with a certain level of consciousness for the sustenance of her children of the cosmos. This is the original meaning of those sayings.

Q: (L) So, eating flesh also means eating consciousness which accumulates, I’m assuming is what is being implied here, or what feeds our consciousness so that it grows in step with our bodies? Is that close?

A: Close enough.

Q: (Ailen) And when you eat veggies you’re basically eating a much lower level of consciousness.

(L) Not only that, but in a sense you’re rejecting the gift and you’re not feeding consciousness. And that means that all eating of meat should be a sacrament.

A: Yes

Q: (Burma) With agriculture, you’re not only rejecting the gift, you’re turning around and beating up the Mother. (L) Well that sure puts a whole different light on the whole Cain and Abel thing!
{Interesting that the original “vegetarian” was the first murderer, too.}

A: Yes.
 
I summarize in a few lines, and you can laugh at me :-) . when I was young I became a vegetarian because I found the supermarket slice of meat hypocritical. aseptic and devoid of the splatter of slaughter, which is instead an integral part of the process. then I became a crudist vegan for health reasons (recurring candida, impossible to cure by official medicine) and with complete success. Never had it again. with menopause I started eating meat again, for hormonal balance reasons. as vegetarian first and as a vegan later, I both maintained my food tolerance of both meat ( always been a glutton for raw meat, once a year were binges with my thalassemic friend) and wheat. I also weaned my son as an omnivore which he still is. and yes. Not only in my current hypocrisy as a non-hunter do I thank the animal I eat, but also in my current hypocrisy as a gatherer, I thank the plants, whose hair I in all humility cut.
 
When I was 16 I spent a month in the Colorado Rockies with an organization called Outward Bound. At the end of our 28 day "outing" we had rabbit for dinner. As part of the course it was required we killed our meal for the evening. Working in pairs one would hold the live rabbit by the legs and ears stretching it taught. The other person would, swiftly, deftly, and with as much force as possible karate chop the rabbit in the back of the neck. The purpose was to make us aware of where and how our animal meats were produced. After 47 years that lesson has stayed with me and I am always thankful for the loin, rib, or leg of whatever animal I happen to be consuming. I also include the seafood in there too!
I had a similar experience. Years ago I decided not to eat food - very spontaneously. I was invited to a birthday eating and I felt so bad after having eaten a "Schnitzel" that I avoided meat from that moment on. This lasted about 3 years. I came back to eating meat again when I was staying at a friends small farm. He had to slaughter a pig, he was not a professional in doing this. I had to help him to cut the throat and also dividing the pig. I had to kill a hen, too. After these very impressing exercise he told me that now I had to eat something of the pig we slaughtered. And so I did and this was the end of my vegetarian years. I am also thankful that I was able to participate in this process. It makes one feel different and thankful . . .
 
Thank you @iamthatis for your words of wisdom... I am no longer vegetarian since I met Laura and this forum which opened my eyes to so many things...It's not so much death that I fear for animals but "suffering"...As for the rabbit, when I was 7/8 years old my father (a soldier) found nothing better than to offer Mamn, my two little sisters and me the spectacle of killing a rabbit to eat it. ..I still remember this horrible scene perfectly today...I never ate rabbit again in my life because I vomited which scared my parents who never forced me to eat it again...Today I only eat grass-fed beef because I think it's a death that feeds a lot of people for a single kill...
 
Thank you @iamthatis for your words of wisdom... I am no longer vegetarian since I met Laura and this forum which opened my eyes to so many things...It's not so much death that I fear for animals but "suffering"...As for the rabbit, when I was 7/8 years old my father (a soldier) found nothing better than to offer Mamn, my two little sisters and me the spectacle of killing a rabbit to eat it. ..I still remember this horrible scene perfectly today...I never ate rabbit again in my life because I vomited which scared my parents who never forced me to eat it again...Today I only eat grass-fed beef because I think it's a death that feeds a lot of people for a single kill...

I think that suffering is also something we don't understand in the West. It belongs to the dark shadowy stuff like blood, dirt, poverty, grief and sickness, etc., all the things we're supposed to overcome or ignore or shut out. We're all supposed to be happy, moving away from pain and towards pleasure, away from failure and towards success. IMO if we can't have life without death, in the same way we can't really experience joy without suffering. They are also two sides of the same coin.

There's the Buddhist saying that life is suffering. It's inevitable here. But what do I do with that fact? Become a victim? I tried that for a long time. I was pretty blown away with J.G. Bennet's description of Gurdjieff's 'doctrine of reciprocal maintenance', which is the idea that our suffering feeds a certain type of vibration the higher ones and helps the world keep on turn, the sun keep on rising, and the water keep on flowing, the harmonious movement of the whole solar system. This is analogous to the way that the suffering of animals and plants, those lower than us on the scale of being, feed us and keep our society going. So there's a heroic option in terms of suffering - we can choose to suffer and direct our sacrifice to feed those higher than we are, and helps to maintain the cosmos. Gurdjieff had a name for this spiritual ecology food pyramid, the Trogoautoegocrat. Everything is always eating, and we are food whether we like it or not. We do get a choice in whom we feed - we can feed the forces of darkness or the forces of light.
Jordan Peterson says that the antidote to suffering is responsibility. I think that's a great way to look at all this. With the Fourth Way we can understand that our suffering can be a force for good in the world, taking responsibility for our small and sometimes confusing role as human beings, and doing the best we can in our own lives, which emits vibrations that support or feed those higher than us. Suffering also helps us directly, too, by up-regulating our DNA and clearing our karmic debts. This cleans out our channels of static, and helps to form the conduit for goodness, beauty and truth to flow into this fallen world. So it's in this sense that intentional suffering and responsibility is the road to joy. I like this poem by Khalil Gibran, On Pain:

And a woman spoke, saying, Tell us of Pain.
And he said:
Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun,
so must you know pain.
And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life
your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy;
And you would accept the seasons of your heart,
even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields.
And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief.

Much of your pain is self-chosen.
It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self.
Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquility:
For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen,
And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips, has been fashioned of the clay
which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears.

It might be that the suffering of animals is similar to our own - their suffering may also help to up-regulate their DNA and could be an important step on their path to 3D. Who knows. It's definitely a strong vibration, tho, and when we're small and innocent and accustomed to teddy bears and pets and cartoons, it can be shocking to witness pain, blood, and death. But that's just growing up, coming to know the price of life. I do think it makes sense to minimize the amount of suffering an animal goes through in killing them, tho, as that is a way of taking responsibility for their lives, and honouring their sacrifice in trying to ensure their passage is smooth. And a death at human hands is often quicker than in the wild. A good shot will end the life quickly, whereas a pack of wolves will start eating the entrails while a moose is still alive and kicking. There's a poem by Leslie Marmon Silko, conjuring up a deer who makes a willing agreement to go along with the death and the suffering. Maybe this is the 2D group soul speaking. To me at least, it present the challenge of killing with love.

Deer Song
Storm winds carry snow
to the mountain stream
clotted white in silence,
pale blue streak under ice
to the sea.

The ice shatters into glassy
bone splinters that tear deep into
soft parts of the hoof.
Swimming away from the wolves
before dawn

choking back salt water
the steaming red froth tide.

It is necessary.
Reflections that blind
from a thousand feet of
gray schist
snow-covered in dying winter sunlight.
The pain is numbed by the freezing,
the depths of the night sky,
the distance beyond pale stars.

Do not think that I do not love you
if I scream
while I die.
Antler and thin black hoof
smashed against dark rock -
the struggle is the ritual
shining teeth tangled in
sinew and flesh.

You see,
I will go with you
because you call softly
because you are my brother
and my sister.

Because the mountain is
our mother.
I will go with you
because you love me
while I die.
 
I think that suffering is also something we don't understand in the West. It belongs to the dark shadowy stuff like blood, dirt, poverty, grief and sickness, etc., all the things we're supposed to overcome or ignore or shut out. We're all supposed to be happy, moving away from pain and towards pleasure, away from failure and towards success. IMO if we can't have life without death, in the same way we can't really experience joy without suffering. They are also two sides of the same coin.




It might be that the suffering of animals is similar to our own - their suffering may also help to up-regulate their DNA and could be an important step on their path to 3D. Who knows. It's definitely a strong vibration, tho, and when we're small and innocent and accustomed to teddy bears and pets and cartoons, it can be shocking to witness pain, blood, and death. But that's just growing up, coming to know the price of life. I do think it makes sense to minimize the amount of suffering an animal goes through in killing them, tho, as that is a way of taking responsibility for their lives, and honouring their sacrifice in trying to ensure their passage is smooth. And a death at human hands is often quicker than in the wild. A good shot will end the life quickly, whereas a pack of wolves will start eating the entrails while a moose is still alive and kicking. There's a poem by Leslie Marmon Silko, conjuring up a deer who makes a willing agreement to go along with the death and the suffering. Maybe this is the 2D group soul speaking. To me at least, it present the challenge of killing with love.
When we studied Ho'opono'pono with Morna (sp?), she tells the story of growing up in a small fishing village on the Southern part of the Big Island, and one of the things that she did for her village was to walk down to the shore and call the deep sea fish in and then enough of them to feed the people would leap out of the water onto the shore to be collected and eaten. Then the rest would swim back out to deep water. My belief tends to run to "when we are in harmony with our surroundings, then source energy provides". We are in the process of learning what we know so little of. Thanks Laura, Team and C's.
 
Thanks for the comments. To be clear, what i said was not about any kind of judgement or morals to be questioned/ discussed, but rather that the cycles themselves have started to appall me when clearly there are 'better ways' possible. Biochemical transfer/ transportation/ availability of 'stuff' does not require death. The notion that it is the best or even only way to recycle certain parts of our physical reality is beyond silly, but perhaps this requires a topic of its own.
 
I personally greet the moment where killing something to eat it isn’t a necessity to life. I accept this is the nature of a STS realm though I have never witnessed a slaughter in person I can imagine it would cause me a great deal of discomfort.

Having said that, killing something (even a person) in self defence, kill or be killed, doesn’t have the same hurt about it. In fact it doesn’t hurt at all to consider it.
I’ve dreamed and imagined scenarios where I’ve had to do what I had to do, it was me or them, from that perspective it’s just a job that needed to be done and something warrior like inside me takes over with incredible strength, stoicism and skill to perform a rear naked choke on the attacker. I’d rather not use weapons, but I do consider the cast iron pans we have an asset. We also have a few swords, and a traditional handcrafted Fijian skull crusher that I’ve imagined needing to use. and using with precision.

I would, without a doubt, kill something with the intent to eat it, but I can’t see myself ever being comfortable with the idea.
 
When I was in my 20's I got heavily into "mind over matter" and studied the ZanZen processes of staring at a wall and erasing all thoughts. I stopped eating meat and eventually got very emaciated and sick. The only permanent damage 30 years later is bad teeth and bone mass loss in my jaw. But what I remember was always being hungry. No matter how many potatoes or bowls of rice or great garden veggies - I never felt full.

What's interesting in the May 2024 session with the C's was how they correlated information on the stage of food development (eggs etc). I've only come to recently not like eggs at all. I never liked pork as a kid, and always gravitated to beef. My wife and now I eat pork 5 to 1 over beef now. But as was mentioned previously - mass processed anything isn't going to help much. We did find that Boar is much easier to digest and has a richer taste than domestic pigs. There aren't inbred boars to the extent of pigs (mass produced barns) that I know of. These aren't the wild ones - but raised and harvested.

With the C's matching food and its "frequency" I was wondering what about salt water crocodile? I tried it from our local specialty meat store two years ago (harvested 14000 km away in Darwin Australia - so not anywhere near a genetic match in the Canadian prairies) and loved it. We eat it once a week now. There's no food I like more and have multiple recipes for it. But it is eating the closest species to a Reptoid, isn't it? So do you eat your enemy and become them? Or weaken them by absorbing your enemy into your DNA?

I'm half joking - at least on the bio availability of nutrients level. Salt Water Croc is amazing food. But the information interface level might concern me. I'm thinking that with the thousands of years of "civilization building" they may have influenced by grain storage and eating (declining nutrients), that it's unlikely the plan is now switching to killing their cousins for food in specialty meat stores...
 
Depuis mon enfance, j’ai toujours refusé de manger des oeufs sans savoir pourquoi... Maintenant je sais...

Ever since I was a child, I've always refused to eat eggs, without knowing why... Now I know...
 
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