Theun Mares (Toltec Seer) - Facing The World Crisis

[Tigersoap]

[quote author=axj]I am also not too sure about this guy. I want to believe that what he does is for the best - and it probably is. In a way, we are all working towards the same goals for us and for the world. The methods may differ on the surface, but in the end the 'goal' is the same - waking up, building a magnetic center, and so on.
[/quote]

Hi Axj,

Then what "method" does he propose to achieve just that, from what I've seen there are dream classes ? with different totem animals and test to be performed ?

Does he mention anywhere something along psychopathy and the consequences ?

I am asking as you seem to have read much more than I did.

 

[axj]

Does he mention anywhere something along psychopathy and the consequences ?

As far as I know, he does not talk about psychopathy directly. He talks about things that may be related, such as the control freaks behind the NWO ("Old Sorcerers" or black magic users) or that it is possible to die in more ways than just physical - eg. the living dead which Gurdjieff also talks about.

 

[Laura]

I think it is only fair to go to the guy's site to check him out. Lord knows, there are enough people out there flaming me or claiming me! I lead a far more interesting life than I'm aware of!

Even if a video game seems a little flaky, don't brush it off as an idea to reach people. We have to remember how the programming was put in place and consider if it is possible to use similar methods to change it. After all, there are a LOT of people on this planet who just don't have the "right stuff" to do hard work on the self, but they are certainly capable of being decent and compassionate if they have proper guidance and role modeling.

I know that many of us (myself included) are often knee-jerk skeptical, and that is understandable; we swim in a sea of lies and corruption. Mares' way of teaching is probably just right for many people... there is more than one way to the top of the mountain!

 

[Mark Meiword]

And what does he do? He doesn't even go to the site where the article in question was published (_www.unconditionalfriendship.com), a blog that only posts Theun's work. Instead he goes to the site of some crackpot you believes he is the reincarnation of the biblical Jonah to get his information.

In fact I did, I just looked for other websites and links talking about Theun Mares.
It's always interesting to look for connections and what kind of company people keeps.

[quote author=Mark Meiword] I hope this helps to make this a more informed discussion.

As in "let's not criticize one bit Theun Mares teachings" ?

[/quote]

Hello Tigersoap,

Thank you for the response. I agree that it always gives one more perspective to see who is associating themselves with the person in question. I just remember from my own experiences in other groups like the 911 truth movement, where I would meet some people that were very well educated and clear thinking and in the same group meet others who were clearly mentally ill. I found it important to remain objective under such circumstances in order to keep from missing the true message. So for example, this fellow running the unconditional friendship blog also "keeps company" with this fellow Theun, at least in the same sense as Jonah, but he seems much more clear headed than this Jonah character.

I also didn't want to give you the idea that I was defending Theun Mares work against criticism. His work speaks for itself and I would be interested in reading your genuine criticism if you would challenge it directly instead of going through the "guilt by association" approach. For example, I myself was surprised by the idea of using a video game to reach people. After I saw the toltec legacy public page though, I started to think that he may actually know what he is doing.

 

[obyvatel]

I did spend some time in the public pages of the toltec legacy website. There was some information which was in tune with the general understandings of this forum IMO. However I did not find any evidence of understanding of the ascending and descending currents of spirituality ( as per Illion in Darkness over Tibet) or STS/STO (as per The C's) and psychopathology among humans. It was a bit surprising given that a lot of information was similar to Castaneda's writings as stated by axj but no mention of the predator's mind part at least in the pages that I checked. I did however find statements which seem to support YCYOR thinking.

In the section about relationships and the "rules to follow", some of the rules were based on external consideration. Rule 4 however says to always look for and focus on the positive. Advice was to always committing oneself to stay happy and also once an investment is made in the form of a relationship, to stay with it no matter what comes. The key rule to relationships and life was "be real and make others' real".


As we know in this forum that making up generalized rules regarding complex topics cannot take the specific context of the situation into account and without this context, rules are mechanical and do not correspond to objective reality. So the advices of "focus on the positive", "committing to stay happy" or "staying the course no matter what" may not be applicable in all situations and would generally lead to dreaming in the sense of the Work. Regarding the "make others real" part - my feeling is that it probably violates free-will but again the statement is ambiguous and difficult to interpret without a context.

Regarding learning, I quote from the site

Quote from _http://www.toltec-legacy.com/public/learning.html

"It follows that the act of learning directly affects how we perceive the knowledge gained in the process of learning. The profound truth that emerges from this is that, in learning, we create the answers we seek, according to our perception of what is revealed to us during the process of learning. In other words, we create our own reality, whether we are aware of this or not."
................
It is simply not possible to live with the knowledge that we are the creators of our own reality, without being overcome by the most intense desire to dream true to the purpose of the One Life.

Regarding the warrior and the path of the warrior

Quote from _http://www.toltec-legacy.com/public/warrior.html

Once the warrior has embarked upon the Path of Knowledge he is no longer liable for what may happen to those whose fate brings them into contact with him. Therefore the warrior has no remorse about anything he has done, because he knows that were he to see his acts as being vile or evil, he would be making his own actions more important than the fate of others.
..........
The Warrior's Path is not an exercise in spiritual development.

Perhaps these statements which raised a flag for me may need to be understood metaphorically or be interpreted differently depending on context. To me it seems to violate the author's own "law" about taking responsibility for the people in one's life - but maybe rules are different for a warrior than common people.

Overall, based on the little I checked, I did not have a very positive impression. My 2 cents fwiw.

 

[Tigersoap]

I also didn't want to give you the idea that I was defending Theun Mares work against criticism. His work speaks for itself and I would be interested in reading your genuine criticism if you would challenge it directly instead of going through the "guilt by association" approach.

And yet you ask me to produce a genuine criticism of his works, if you did not care, why would you say that ?

Although I browsed his texts, to be fair and see if my first impression was incorrect, I listened to the videos while working so here it goes :

Theun Mares likes to play piano, likes to cook and pet dogs. So far so good.
I've been primed into liking him already. (I just watched the intro.)

What bothers me for example, as Adpop pointed out is the emphasis on business/money (crystalized power) and rather naive approach overall, but he sounds nice and friendly, I agree.

In his Money, business and politics speech,for example he acknowledges that all the money has been gathered in the hands of a few, thus creating poverty for others.
For TM, the true meaning of bartering has been forgotten, people stop to think outside the "money box" so to speak, conditioned to think this way, so from his own word "they accept a mindest of poverty and therefore it's not surprising that they are living in poverty".

Fine, but he does not explain one bit where that comes from and how to de-brainwash yourself from it (not in this particular speech in any case.).
Further in the speech, he never ever talks about the true reality, meaning, how psychopaths and their 4dsts friends have set-the game up.

Another thing for example, is the emphasis on community, for TM, your solution to get out of the system is to gather with people to form a group, which would be a sensible thing to do, when seeing how the economic situaton is heading but what happens to groups such as these without the knowledge of psychopathy/work on the self and ponerology ?
My bet is that they get hijacked or disintegrate after a while because that's how the whole matrix works against such groups.

I think his vision of Middle ages which became corrupted through time is quite naive and idealistic as well.

I found more informations backed up by quoted evidence with these sott articles for example than TM explanations about politics and economics :

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/169225-Money-Supply-Debt-Slavery-and-other-Manipulations

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/170407-State-Repression-and-the-Establishment-of-Capitalism


Until a certain point the teachings of TM might be interesting, but for me, they fall short on certain crucial points that make me doubt the rest.
You may feel knowing more, after listening or reading him, but if you spent any amount of time looking for such matters, there isn't much you would not know already.

 

[Laura]

Yes, it does seem that Mares is lacking a great deal of knowledge and that he has been influenced by the Postmodernist take on reality that has been promoted by the psychoanalytic movement. It might also help him to realize that it seems pretty clear that Castaneda was deeply influenced by the work of Gurdjieff and it is entirely possible that much of the "Toltec" thing was made up to be a vehicle for Castaneda's interpretation of the 4th Way with some additional shamanic material from the SouthWest added in for flavor.

 

[Mountain Crown]

An item that may be of interest:

[quote author=Théun Mares from Freedom Vs Shamanism]...the “foreign installations”, the so-called “fliers”, also have no place in any Toltec lineage. [/quote]

 

[foofighter]

[quote author=Théun Mares from Freedom Vs Shamanism]...the “foreign installations”, the so-called “fliers”, also have no place in any Toltec lineage. [/quote]
Hm.. that doesn't compute. My understanding is that the "foreign installation" (aka "predators mind" aka "negative introject") was installed by the "fliers" (aka Lizzies aka Dark T-Shirts), and not that they are the same. Am I missing something here?

 

[Laura]

An item that may be of interest:

[quote author=Théun Mares from Freedom Vs Shamanism]...the “foreign installations”, the so-called “fliers”, also have no place in any Toltec lineage.

[/quote]

In short, Mares is promoting ideas that either deny or conceal one of the most important aspects of our reality that people most desperately need to know about. That amounts to disinformation or vectoring.

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Laura]That amounts to disinformation or vectoring.[/quote]Precisely.

If memory serves me right, the preservation of Toltec wisdom was supposed to have been through separate lineages. What should we make of Mares saying:

...no place in any Toltec lineage.

 

[axj]

In the section about relationships and the "rules to follow", some of the rules were based on external consideration. Rule 4 however says to always look for and focus on the positive. Advice was to always committing oneself to stay happy and also once an investment is made in the form of a relationship, to stay with it no matter what comes. The key rule to relationships and life was "be real and make others' real".

As we know in this forum that making up generalized rules regarding complex topics cannot take the specific context of the situation into account and without this context, rules are mechanical and do not correspond to objective reality. So the advices of "focus on the positive", "committing to stay happy" or "staying the course no matter what" may not be applicable in all situations and would generally lead to dreaming in the sense of the Work. Regarding the "make others real" part - my feeling is that it probably violates free-will but again the statement is ambiguous and difficult to interpret without a context.

I just read those rules and I did not see anything about "staying in a relationship no matter what comes". "Make yourself and others real" can indeed be interpreted in a few ways. My take on it is to perceive yourself and others in more objective ways.

These "relationship rules" are actually from a book that was written to benefit those who may not be interested in self-growth work. As such, this is not a part of the Toltec teachings you find in his other books for people who are interested in the real nitty-gritty of the Work.

 

[axj]

What bothers me for example, as Adpop pointed out is the emphasis on business/money (crystalized power) and rather naive approach overall, but he sounds nice and friendly, I agree.

FWIW, his Toltec teachings books do not focus on business and money almost at all.

Another thing for example, is the emphasis on community, for TM, your solution to get out of the system is to gather with people to form a group, which would be a sensible thing to do, when seeing how the economic situaton is heading but what happens to groups such as these without the knowledge of psychopathy/work on the self and ponerology ?

My bet is that they get hijacked or disintegrate after a while because that's how the whole matrix works against such groups.

With Mares, his emphasis is always on doing the self-growth work. So my guess is that working on the self is what will help groups to spot hijackers etc. who are not co-linear with the group.

 

[axj]

Yes, it does seem that Mares is lacking a great deal of knowledge and that he has been influenced by the Postmodernist take on reality that has been promoted by the psychoanalytic movement. It might also help him to realize that it seems pretty clear that Castaneda was deeply influenced by the work of Gurdjieff and it is entirely possible that much of the "Toltec" thing was made up to be a vehicle for Castaneda's interpretation of the 4th Way with some additional shamanic material from the SouthWest added in for flavor.

Mares claims that he is a seer and that as such he can see past lifetimes and his previous training with the Toltec teachings. I am not sure what the postmodernist take on reality is. Could you elaborate? TIA.

 

[axj]

An item that may be of interest:

[quote author=Théun Mares from Freedom Vs Shamanism]...the “foreign installations”, the so-called “fliers”, also have no place in any Toltec lineage.

In short, Mares is promoting ideas that either deny or conceal one of the most important aspects of our reality that people most desperately need to know about. That amounts to disinformation or vectoring.
[/quote]

There is also the possibility that Castaneda did made up the "flyers", the "magical passes", and so on. I agree that Mares does not talk too much about the dark aspects of our reality. Yet in my opinion, the self-growth system he provides is more than capable to help people wake up and see for themselves.