Seamas said:Are you saying that if enough people come to perceive the "signs and symptoms" of takeover by madmen, THAT is the cure? If enough people are immune to the hystericization process and the pathological thinking that follows the skid into madness will stop? That is what Lobaczewski argues, in a nutshell, isn't it?
No, that's not what I said: that perceiving is the cure. And I don't think Lobaczewski said that either. But perceiving the signs and symptoms of the disease "out there" may very well be what inoculates YOU against catching it!
Seamas said:I have a some other questions from what I read, apologies for the length of this post:
Haffner said:Did not some of the surface waves send out vibrations, as evidenced by a new jittery tension, a new intolerance and heated readiness to hate, which began to infect private political discussions, and even more by the unrelenting pressure to think about politics all the time? Was it not a remarkable effect of politics on private life that we suddenly considered any normal daily private event as a political demonstration?
Be that as it may, I still clung to this normal un-political life. There was no angle from which I could attack the Nazis. Well then, at least I would not let them interfere with my personal life.
This "unrelenting pressure to think about politics all the time" is definitely present in the US right now. Each day I hear everyone talking about politics and it is the first or second topic that is broached in every conversation before or after the weather. Many of my millennial friends feel that the Women's March and last night's riots at UC Berkeley are forms of "resistance", but I hardly see how they could be since they are encouraged and condoned by the MSM and public figures who are openly opposed to Trump. They are forms of "resistance" that have been tried many times in the past and have always failed.
If there is no angle from which I can attack the Nazis, and there's nowhere to go to escape them, what can I do? Keep reading and trying to understand? Keep asking questions?
Well, truth is, at this point, we aren't really sure WHO are the "Nazis". The Left is acting like the Brown-shirts who brought Hitler to power, but they are screaming about Trump and Trump is the one supposedly acting like a nationalist xenophobe. So what's the deal? Is it possible that it is ALL theater?? Is the Left activated against Trump in order to facilitate Trump doing what he might be wanted to do: impose fascism? Was Hillary sacrificed deliberately in order to get Trump in? And I'm not suggesting that Trump was part of some conspiracy, but that the string pullers behind the scenes know how to make the puppets do what is wanted, including those who are unaware they are being manipulated. And if, in the end, the real objective is to provide more loosh for 4D STS, we really can't call one side the bad guys and the other side the good guys here. I think we just have to look at each issue and yes, keep reading and trying to understand.
Seamas said:Haffner said:True, something further was necessary to achieve all this. That was the cowardly treachery of all party and organisational leaders, to whom the 56 per cent of the population who had voted against the Nazis on the 5th of March had entrusted themselves. This terrible and decisive event was not much noticed by the outside world. Naturally, the Nazis had no interest in drawing attention to it, since it would considerably devalue their 'victory', and as for the traitors themselves: well, of course, they did not want attention drawn to it. Nevertheless, it is finally only this betrayal that explains the almost inexplicable fact that a great nation, which cannot have consisted entirely of cowards, fell into ignominy without a fight.
The betrayal was complete, extending from Left to Right. [...]
This cowardly treachery began a long time ago, as you cover in your article, and IMO was much more insidious here in the US than in Germany, but maybe its because I've been living it and hindsight is 20/20. The betrayal is complete at this point and almost everyone seems to be playing for the same team. So I'm wondering what you make of Tulsi Gabbard (just one example, not that there are many). She seems to be speaking up. Is she truly displaying courage and "breeding," or is she another tool?
Well, I'm not making hard and fast categories or seeing anything as black or white. She seems to be the real deal though, as is often - usually - the case, good people without some knowledge of psychopathology and history, etc, and without a network of those trying to see objectively, can't see everything.
Seamas said:LKJ said:One most important point needs to be made here: the phenomenon has nothing to do with the Ideologies used by the various deviant players. Being a psychopath is common to any and all groups, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. The second point is: Just because we can identify many Zionists as a gang of psychopathic manipulators on one side, because they have used Judaism as their ruse, and have hidden themselves behind the masses of normal Jews, does not mean that their ostensible nemesis, Adolf Hitler, was a "good guy." In fact, it is not uncommon for psychopaths to play exactly this sort of game: to be working together behind the scenes while presenting a confrontational farce for the consumption of the masses.
This is an important point to keep in mind when dealing with Trump, IMO. Just because he appears to be the enemy of the neoliberalcon establishment does not mean he is a "good guy". This is part of your point, no?
Exactly. See what I commented above. And keep in mind the 4D STS feeding factor, too. In many articles I don't talk about that because they are for a wider readership.
Seamas said:LKJ said:But what is it that makes a society so vulnerable? Haffner has described what happened, we need to turn to Lobaczewski to understand the psychology of WHY it happened. How does an entire society have a Nervous Breakdown, fall into a state of total moral collapse? How do they become susceptible to the machinations of pathological deviants? Lobaczewski wrote:
Lobaczewski said:During happy times of peace and social injustice, children of the privileged classes learn to repress from their field of consciousness any of those uncomfortable concepts suggesting that they and their parents benefit from injustice. Young people learn to disqualify the moral and mental values of anyone whose work they are using to over-advantage. Young minds thus ingest habits of subconscious selection and substitution of data, which leads to a hysterical conversion economy of reasoning. They grow up to be somewhat hysterical adults who, by means of the ways adduced above, thereupon transmit their hysteria to the younger generation, which then develops these characteristics to a greater degree. The hysterical patterns for experience and behavior grow and spread downwards from the privileged classes until crossing the boundary of the first criterion of ponerology.
[The atrophy of natural critical faculties with respect to pathological individuals becomes an opening to their activities, and, at the same time, a criterion for recognizing the association in concern as ponerogenic. Let us call this the first criterion of ponerogenesis.]
When the habits of subconscious selection and substitution of thought-data spread to the macro-social level, a society tends to develop contempt for factual criticism and to humiliate anyone sounding an alarm. Contempt is also shown for other nations which have maintained normal thought-patterns and for their opinions. Egotistic thought-terrorization is accomplished by the society itself and its processes of conversive thinking. This obviates the need for censorship of the press, theater, or broadcasting, as a pathologically hypersensitive censor lives within the citizens themselves.
When three "egos" govern, egoism, egotism, and egocentrism, the feeling of social links and responsibility disappear, and the society in question splinters into groups ever more hostile to each other. When a hysterical environment stops differentiating the opinions of limited, not-quite-normal people from those of normal, reasonable persons, this opens the door for activation of the pathological factors ... (Andrew Lobaczewski, Political Ponerology)
The process that Lobaczewski describes here is becoming clearer and clearer to me as things ramp up here. The hysterical thinking. They entitlement. The splintering of society "into groups ever more hostile to each other". The open contempt for factual criticism. I'm sure this is all old news for many of you and in many ways it is for me, but recently I have been experiencing these things in a much more personal way. My question here is: what do we do at this point? When faced with growing "contempt for factual criticism" coming from those who are normally at least somewhat reasonable? Should we just keep trying to get through to them? Is it better to observe and try to understand? Depends on the situation?
I think that "depends on the situation" is the right answer; External Considering. Sometimes External Considering includes finding activities that relieve pressures and frustrations such as anonymous social interactions. I think that's the best attitude to have about any "trying to get through to them".
Seamas said:Rees said:The idea that the Gestapo itself was constantly spying on the population is demonstrably a myth.
So how was it possible that so few people exercised such control?
The simple answer is because the Gestapo received enormous help from ordinary Germans. Like all modern policing systems, the Gestapo was only as good or bad as the cooperation it received - and the files reveal that it received a high level of cooperation, making it a very good secret police force indeed.
Only around 10 per cent of political crimes committed between 1933 and 1945 were actually discovered by the Gestapo; another 10 per cent of cases were passed on to the Gestapo by the regular police or the Nazi Party. This means that around 80 per cent of all political crime was discovered by ordinary citizens who turned the information over to the police or the Gestapo. The files also show that most of this unpaid cooperation came from people who were not members of the Nazi Party - they were 'ordinary' citizens.
Yet there was never a duty to denounce or inform. The mass of files in the Würzburg archive came into being because some non-party member voluntarily denounced a fellow German. Far from being a proactive organization that resolutely sought out its political enemies itself, the Gestapo's main job was sorting out the voluntary denunciations it received.
This section immediately brought the NSA spying programs and Snowden to mind for me. It is considered common knowledge at this point with most of the people I know that the NSA reads all of our emails, listens in on our phonecalls and even taps into our Nest thermostats to see how warm we like our apartments. I think y'all expressed doubts about Snowden early on and he could still be either a plant or an tool of those wishing to plant this kind of "the gestapo are everywhere" idea into the minds of the people. Interesting parallel, OSIT.
I think that information collection is everywhere, but they can't possibly "listen to" or read it all. That's where "citizen denouncement" would come in. Without something to flag a person, their data is just a few bits in millions of other bits, un-reviewed and un-listened to.
Seamas said:Rees said:Denunciations became a way in which Germans could make their voices heard in a system that had turned away from democracy; you see somebody who should be in the army but is not - you denounce them; you hear somebody tell a joke about Hitler - you denounce them as well. Denunciations could also be used for personal gain; you want the flat an old Jewish lady lives in - you denounce her; your neighbours irritate you - you denounce them too.
How long until this sort of thing starts up en masse? What defense is there against this? Anything?
I think it's already going on, but as to when it becomes common, nobody knows. The best defense is to have a good network both here and in your IRL environment. External considering again.
Seamas said:Rees said:During his many months of research in the Würzburg archive Professor Gellately struggled hard to find a 'hero' - someone who had stood up to the regime, an antidote, if you like, to the bleak aspect that the study of the Gestapo files casts on human nature. He believed he had found just such a person in Ilse Sonja Totzke, who went to Würzburg as a music student in the 1930s. <snip>
So... to make a long story short, the one person they could find in the Gestapo files who stood up to them and refused to be broken ended up dead in a concentration camp. My question here is, what good is it to stubbornly and openly resist in a society gone mad? Is it a matter of the soul? One MUST resist, or not. Is it a matter of inevitability? In other words if are there only 2 choices: to resist or to be broken, is it better to resist from the start and lose your life than to allow yourself to be broken?
This woman wasn't practicing External Considering. Her ego was running the show. It got her killed.
Seamas said:LKJ said:In the Chaos of today, have YOU consented to atrocity? Or, do you have "breeding"?
How many Frau Kraus' are there today in America, Europe or around the world? Unassuming, ordinary people yet whose minds have been softened by subconscious selection and substitution, a sense of entitlement to the lifestyle supported by the suffering of others, infected by years of a psychopathic "morality" leaving them supremely susceptible to the type of organised hysteria that led Frau Kraus to condemn her neighbor, an innocent woman, to death 65 years ago in Germany. Are there such people among your friends, your family members? More importantly, is there one when you look in the mirror?
There are many, many Frau Kraus' starting with the "leaders" we hoped would stand up to this madness and betrayed us long ago. This brings me back to my initial thought:
One thought I had is that understanding this process is a form of "cultural self-remembering". If enough people understand this process well enough and know how to resist it humanity could avoid falling into the same trap time and again.
I know I don't fully grok what is happening but I can taste it, smell it. I am here. I read and I try to understand, try to network, try to rework pathologically infected thought patterns and programs. I have conversations with my friends and family and try to encourage them to think when I don't see the full picture myself. Am I doing it "right"? Learning to be more aware on 3 levels and trying to help others into the step behind me? Is resistance a personal struggle that we all must undertake?
I think you may be making it harder on yourself than it needs to be. Don't have conversations with those close to you unless asked. Practice External Considering. Engage with your home network on the level they are at, and keep working with the "soul network" to achieve understanding. That way, you are able to help others when and if they ask. And that may be in the future.
But, at the same time, it is helpful to send out a signal to the Universe about where you stand, but that can be done privately, or even anonymously; in these days it is even easier because of the net and its potentials.
Seamas said:Haffner's "duel":
Haffner said:This is the story of a duel.
It is a duel between two very unequal adversaries: an exceedingly powerful, formidable and ruthless state and an insignificant, unknown private individual. The duel does not take place in what is commonly known as the sphere of politics; the individual is by no means a politician, still less a conspirator, or an enemy of the state. Throughout, he finds himself very much on the defensive. He only wishes to preserve what he considers his integrity, his private life and his personal honour. These are under constant attack by the Government of the country he lives in, and by the most brutal, but often also clumsy, means. ...
The individual is ... ill-prepared for the onslaught. He was not born a hero, still less a martyr. He is just an ordinary man with many weaknesses, having grown up in vulnerable times. He is nevertheless stubbornly antagonistic. So he enters into the duel - without enthusiasm, shrugging his shoulders but with a quiet determination not to yield. He is of course, much weaker than his opponent, but rather more agile. You will see him duck and weave, dodge his foe and dart back, evading crushing blows by a whisker. You will have to admit that, for someone who is neither a hero nor a martyr, he manages to put up a good fight. Finally, however, you will see him compelled to abandon the struggle, or if you will transfer it to another plane.
Is this duel worth dying for? Worth endangering friends and family? I think so but I know that I have not been truly tested yet.
"Transfer it to another plane" is the key. Haffner escaped Germany for very good reasons: his life was at risk because of his girlfriend or wife (can't remember which). Unless you are faced with that particular situation, you don't have to "escape". You can, effectively, live a life of External Considering. Read about Gurdjieff's life and work during the war, that should give some inspiration.
Seamas said:LKJ said:Just as everyone who does not stand up against the Fascism galloping across the planet today is just as guilty of murder as the one who commits the act. Any American who does not stand against incarceration without habeas corpus, is guilty if violating the constitution. Anyone who does not stand against torture, wherever it happens, is guilty of torture and guilty of the death of the victim if the torture results in their death. Any person who does not stand against the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, is guilty of the deaths of over a million innocent Iraqis and Afghans.
Am I doing enough? Am I really speaking out against torture by sending out a few tweets and conversing with like-minded friends when there is little danger? What will happen to me if/when the rubber really hits the road? Do I have the character, the conviction, "breeding" to stand up when it really matters? These are the kinds of questions that keep me up at night.
I hope these questions and thoughts are productive and not just noise. Just trying to understand...
The above paragraph was written at a time when standing up in those ways was still possible. That time is passing.
Just remember External Considering and the fact that sometimes survival to the other side of a catastrophe is itself a worthy goal. External Considering, Stalking a la Castaneda. Study those things for inspiration.