Trump era: Fascist dawn, or road to liberation?

Seppo Ilmarinen said:
Laura said:
SummerLite said:
Something happened to a portion of the liberals during the 8 years of Obama, what was it? so many where on their toes during the Bush years and against everything he stood for and watching closely. Maybe people where to wide awake and in need of a sleeping pill, enter Barack Obama with his soothing speech and manner :zzz:. The neocon agenda moved behind closed doors, no longer in ones face and gave people a much needed rest and time to dream of other things. The New Age movement was going strong during all this time, lots of dreaming going on there, makes me consider what is behind that (I think we know for the most part). In some New Age circles, channelers portrayed Obama as an enlightened being doing his best to save us. :zzz: Others where dreaming about human rights a lot, I guess. Then all of a sudden BAM! The alarm clock goes off and Trump is the new president! People stumble from their beds agitated and confused then become angry :mad: THIS IS NOT MY DREAM they scream! What the hell is going on here??? Who is this man ragging all around and making so much noise and changing things! But they are still dreaming, the scenery has changed and now they find themselves in a nightmare with Hitler.

A lot of these sleepy heads are very young and the dream is all they've known. I wonder how many people are actually involved in this insane acting out. The numbers may be lower then we think (I hope).

This is an excellent description of what happened. Obama was a spell-binder and it didn't matter how many times I pointed out that he was doing all the same stuff that Bush did, and even worse stuff, the liberals simply paid no attention. And while he was doing all the Bush/Neocon stuff, he salted it with a bunch of liberal stuff here and there to keep the liberals attention focused elsewhere.

To me, it is utterly amazing that so many people did NOT realize that Obama was just Bush and the gang in disguise.

Yeah. Maybe what we're seeing now with these snowflakey-type-vehemently-reacting-people is great example of what happens, when you believe such a lies. Like said, in many ways 8 years of Obama was even worse than Bush years: the lies went deeper with bombing of Libya and Syria (among others), funding and arming terrorists, waging secret wars with drones, creating false flags in Europe and US, worsening living standards, reintroducing cold war, and so on. So many events that would have needed reaction by liberal/humanitarian types, yet they decided to stay asleep. Same time it became harder and harder for them to get on board with what's really going on; first you would have to accept your own ignorance, gullibility and participation as a blind bystander in all these crimes. So much easier to just take the blue pill and keep dreaming.
Yeah, one could also see it as finally releasing a valve on a pressure cooker after a long time of pressure building. During Obama's 8 spell binding years in power, all his voters and the now turned ant-Trump protesters, were in a sense not allowed to protests. They had their man, a man of colour and a cool guy, and though the inequalities persisted and in many places got worse, then they were putting the gag on themselves, much like during Slick Willy's presidency, where during the ongoing Starr investigations, the democrats kept quite on the neo-liberal/con policies,so as not to make things for their 'democratic' president even worse.

Now that Trump is the president, these people can finally go out and release all their pent-up emotions as Trump is not from the Democratic party, he is not black and also not a woman.

During the Bush years there was also to a certain degree, a silencing of people due to 'TERROR' and the constant 'bin Laden under the bed' routine. America was at war, so questioning the leaders could be seen as unpatriotic.

So one could make the case, and perhaps it is a weak case, that we are seeing 24 years (Clinton,Bush, Obama) of anger and frustration being released. Coupled with the hysterization and the dumbing down that has taken place during this whole period and the powder keg is ready to go off with untold concequences.

mkrnhr said:
Niall said:
Laura said:
I agree. Americans deserve Trump: he is the reflection of the majority of them and he will bring on the destruction of America. And not because he is a bad person or because the left is good; neither assessment is remotely true. The left HAS gone evil and the Right does have legitimate concerns; they've just lost all capacity for rational thought on both sides.

My sense these last few days is: chaos is coming.

That's my sentiment as well, and it hit me during the latest weeks that at this point there is only destructive chaos ahead. The spread of psychosis is chilling. What amazes me is the notion of liberal arts including at its core grammar, logic, and rhetoric, and not a shred of any of these can be encountered in the actual liberal discourse.

Yes, the ability to think and reason is well and truly gone and it is not surprising that the democracy is heading south. Regarding the liberal arts, I have been pondering the same things as Mkrnhr and especially what it says in the beginning:
_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education

The liberal arts (Latin: artes liberales) are those subjects or skills that in classical antiquity were considered essential for a free person (Latin: liberalis, "worthy of a free person")[1] to know in order to take an active part in civic life, something that (for Ancient Greece) included participating in public debate, defending oneself in court, serving on juries, and most importantly, military service. Grammar, logic, and rhetoric were the core liberal arts, while arithmetic, geometry, the theory of music, and astronomy also played a (somewhat lesser) part in education.[2]
So one can see the combined citizenship as an unformed mass devoid of rational and independent thought and who is at the mercy of the puppet masters to fullfil their whims. And the uncontrolled emotional energies of hundreds of millions of people is a force to be reckoned with. Just like Mao used the young people in the Cultural Revolution in 1966 to cement his position in power, so are the PTB unleashing the millenials to force their agenda and without regard for the destruction that it might herald.
 
In the background, I've been reading Mary Douglas' two books "Purity and Danger" and "Natural Symbols" - seminal texts in social anthropology. Interesting how many things studied in "primitive" cultures maps onto modern society. It really helps to see what different groups are doing/feeling and why: what is at the basis. Ties into psychological studies in some respects. But Douglas didn't factor in anything like psychopathology which obviously plays a starring role.

Have a look here: https://www.dustinstoltz.com/blog/2014/06/04/diagram-of-theory-douglas-and-wildavskys-gridgroup-typology-of-worldviews
 
To add to my post above, bureaucrats seem to be already anticipating "Trump's will" and go beyond the actual orders concerned with the so-called "Muslim ban", according to this article from the Duran:

To the extent that Trump’s Executive Order imposes visa bans and limits asylum claims from certain countries for limited periods, or in Syria’s case indefinitely, it seems to me that it breaks no fundamentally new ground. However there have been some other claims: that it turns away people who have already been granted asylum status – or who were about to be – and that it prevents entry to the US of individuals who previously had a right to enter and remain there. There are numerous reports that such things have actually been happening.

If so then all I can say is that there seems to be no permission for such practices in the Executive Order, which so far as I can see takes away no one’s legal right to enter and stay in the US if that right is already granted. Whether an Executive Order can in fact as a matter of law take away such legal rights I do not know but strongly doubt.

I suspect that what has happened is that in the early days of the new administration, with the relevant departments such as Homeland Security still not under the proper control of their newly appointed chiefs, officials lower down the command chain are not getting proper guidance from their superiors, and are choosing to avoid taking risks with their careers by interpreting the Executive Order beyond the meaning of its text. Doubtless one factor in causing them to act in this way is that they believe that this is how Trump wants them to act,
 
Trump, Brexit and psychometrics

Interesting article about Big Data being utilized to manufacture messages targeted at specific types of people, allegedly a big part of the reason Trump got elected and also behind Brexit:

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-our-likes-helped-trump-win
 
Trump on torture:
- "Do I think, it works? Absolutely!"

Trump Full Interview with David Muir - ABC News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkHa2-c_8Pk

Taking the oil out of Iraq:
- "If we kept the oil, you probably wouldn't have ISIS, because that's why they made their money in the first place. So we should have kept the oil.
But.. okay.. ** maybe you will have another chance. ** "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMBqDN7-QLg

It appears he was assured that torture works by a close friend and ally he trusts absolutely - and this person may have been brought to the dark side, without Trump being aware of the friend's corruption. Also Trump might be saying this and other outrageous things, like Chelsea Manning is a traitor, to appear to be a psychopath as well to ** ease ** thoughts within the 5th Column that his assassination will be necessary, I think.

After carefully watching Spicer's two press conferences and his CIA speech and above interview, it appears if there is a real danger of fascist dawn - it will be a close shave, when we successfully evade it and sail through toward a better future.

Confusing little bits emanate from these people looking at them during the video:
1. Why did they say it
2. Could there be a strong external factor influencing them
3. Are they in conflict with what they HAD TO say and what they are really feeling
Because they are alive - Spicer, Trump and others clearly seen talking when the camera shows their faces -, there is a universal connection allowing a certain amount of information stream be downloaded from the 'psyche' of these living people, which creates, makes up this confusing feeling about them.

There is the fear of being wrong about Trump - because I want Trump to succeed without going "nuclear"- Hitler - and now I'm afraid every day to look at the breaking news and find a news peace that proves straight any beginning signs and symptoms, sayings and actions that suggest of him becoming Hitler. I actively want to avoid latter.

I want to see us moving forward into a better future [or less than worst] evading the dark, so we can end up walking on the road to liberation.
 
c.a. said:
whitecoast said:
One idea that's been sitting around in my head for awhile is that, if the return of Nazism was an inevitable part of the plan to exterminate semitic races, and this increaese in islamophobia is indispensable for this, why was Trump not favored by the PTBs? He seems much more willing to play that role than Hillary and the progressives, who are highly accepting and inclusive of islam, and are well aware of the ways in which muslims are demozied from the behavior of radicals and western-backed wahhabi nutjobs.

One theory I had was that, perhaps the "tolerance" of islam was supposed to be official protocol for the next few years or so, in order to build further public fear of radical islamic terror, and cement the notion that the state was not going to proect them sufficiently from it? If this gaslighting of the common american people went on further with more false flag attacks framing muslims, but then simultaneously welcoming more refugees into the country, perhaps the anti-muslim sentiments would have grown to be even more feverish than they currently are? Perhaps this build-up was mean to be exploited in order to create even more public wishes to crack down on them when an out-and-out fascist leader did get into power. What I mean is that, maybe Trump and his islamophobic rhetoric - in a way - sort of "set off the bomb" before the rest of the charges were in place, so to speak? So the left is more able to effectively mobilize against islamophobia now than it would have been maybe 8 or 12 years down the line, effectively helping to save some of the arabs?

Obviously I'm just talking about how muslims themselves are treated in western countries - not what is going on in the middle east itself. It seems like the feedback loop of "[bomb muslim counties] --> [create refugees] --> [perform terror attacks] --> [rouse islamophobia and desire for revenge] --> [bomb muslim countries]" may be broken, depending on how Trump's foregin policy plays out, and if the domestic pro-islam progressive forces can help put the brakes on step 4. Just some thoughts I had.

Boy is that not the truth.
(Rudy, Rudy, Rudy, Rudy)
{snip}

c.a. with all due respect, that's kind of a non-answer. What specifically were you trying to convey with those videos of Rudy Giuliani?
 
lilies:
Confusing little bits emanate from these people looking at them during the video:
1. Why did they say it
2. Could there be a strong external factor influencing them
3. Are they in conflict with what they HAD TO say and what they are really feeling
Because they are alive - Spicer, Trump and others clearly seen talking when the camera shows their faces -, there is a universal connection allowing a certain amount of information stream be downloaded from the 'psyche' of these living people, which creates, makes up this confusing feeling about them.
SL:
We shouldn't forget Trump finally agreeing that Russia was involved in the elections. Thats a good example of what your saying here. I watched a report from Spicer recently and I felt sorry for him. It was so apparent he is under a great deal of pressure. He seems like a decent person. The pressure bearing down on these people is immense and I've feared for their health at times.

lilies: There is the fear of being wrong about Trump - because I want Trump to succeed without going "nuclear"- Hitler - and now I'm afraid every day to look at the breaking news and find a news peace that proves straight any beginning signs and symptoms, sayings and actions that suggest of him becoming Hitler. I actively want to avoid latter.

I want to see us moving forward into a better future [or less than worst] evading the dark, so we can end up walking on the road to liberation.
SL:
I know what you mean. I'm actually holding my breath every day with the prospect of what new element will arise. At the same time I remind myself not to get to caught up in it. I work at being responsible and taking care of basic values in my life and being stable for the people I care for. It requires a certain detachment from the "society" we live in which more often then not is screwed up. I live in a town surrounded by mountains. Sometimes I go to a mountain top overlooking the town. From this vantage point, out in nature, I remove myself from society and can see clearly what its all about. The solitude of nature and its peaceful expansiveness is a profound reality check. It's a stark contrast to the self absorbed, frenzied complications created by humanity living in a bubble of technology. So, I endeavor to keep this broader perspective which helps with not getting caught up in the macabre circus we find ourselves in.

edit: dont know what happened here, all was posted as a quote! I added SL to where I'm speaking.
 
Laura said:
mabar said:
So, what would you think of this? Because, from one part, I usually do not trust what government denies or says, and US remain silent ... one wonders ... and the other part thinks that someone through AP and/or via the MSM want to create more circus? or focus in something else? ... https://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/230039-trump-mexico-hacerse-cargo-bad-hombres ---spanish
_http://time.com/4657474/donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-mexico-bad-hombres/?xid=homepage said:
President Trump Threatens to Send U.S. Troops to Mexico to Take Care of 'Bad Hombres'

President Donald Trump threatened in a phone call with his Mexican counterpart to send U.S. troops to stop "bad hombres down there" unless the Mexican military does more to control them itself, according to an excerpt of a transcript of the conversation obtained by The Associated Press.

...just read this article -finding more about this issue-, and is from June 2016 _http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/06/13/president-trump-will-invade-and-attack-mexico/ ... the author has good points, I think.

I don't see a version of this article on RT English, but it IS the headliner on WaPo and derived from AP. That, in itself, is suspicious. And, VT is pretty well-known disinfo site.

According to the Washington Times, the AP misreported the story: _http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/1/fake-news-mexico-says-associated-press-misreported/

A spokesperson for the Mexican President said Trump did not threaten to invade Mexico during the phone conversation. Looks like more faked or misrepresentation from the MSM.
 
NormaRegula said:
Laura said:
mabar said:
So, what would you think of this? Because, from one part, I usually do not trust what government denies or says, and US remain silent ... one wonders ... and the other part thinks that someone through AP and/or via the MSM want to create more circus? or focus in something else? ... https://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/230039-trump-mexico-hacerse-cargo-bad-hombres ---spanish
_http://time.com/4657474/donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-mexico-bad-hombres/?xid=homepage said:
President Trump Threatens to Send U.S. Troops to Mexico to Take Care of 'Bad Hombres'

President Donald Trump threatened in a phone call with his Mexican counterpart to send U.S. troops to stop "bad hombres down there" unless the Mexican military does more to control them itself, according to an excerpt of a transcript of the conversation obtained by The Associated Press.

...just read this article -finding more about this issue-, and is from June 2016 _http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/06/13/president-trump-will-invade-and-attack-mexico/ ... the author has good points, I think.


I don't see a version of this article on RT English, but it IS the headliner on WaPo and derived from AP. That, in itself, is suspicious. And, VT is pretty well-known disinfo site.

According to the Washington Times, the AP misreported the story: _http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/feb/1/fake-news-mexico-says-associated-press-misreported/

A spokesperson for the Mexican President said Trump did not threaten to invade Mexico during the phone conversation. Looks like more faked or misrepresentation from the MSM.


It was on the morning news here. Their tried and true obfuscating methods were used in the story. The story starts with, 'various unconfirmed reports are saying that Trump declared he might have to invade Mexico.... blah blah. And later, 'depending on what version of the story you want to believe'... then reiterating the original statement. This of course puts it out there in peoples minds, like coded words sent to the sheep. And will probably end up on a sign in some protest in the future. as if it was truth. With many willing to follow along, having itching ears, wanting to hear what they want to hear. I think that reviewing the possibility that many are programmed, to go off, all at once, this seems to be an aspect of it. But I think that there is still more sinister things to come. It could be in stages, and this is just the first part.
 
Laura said:
As for Trump being a Hitler - there are certainly a number of markers present, but the backgrounds and personalities are quite different. If the Nazi situation develops - and it looks like there is a good chance it will - it will be mainly due to the leftist opposition forcing the situation. After all, if they keep up what they are doing against a single-minded Trump who thinks he is doing what is right, what options does he have? Martial Law. And certainly, there are some Nazi types in his advisors and a bunch of them running the government bureaucracy. A good understanding of what happened in Germany is useful. You might want to read my article from back when: https://www.sott.net/article/152271-Chaos-and-Consent-Working-Towards-the-Fuhrer

In that article I wrote:

The point I am making here is that what we are seeing in the U.S. and the rest of the world today is closely modeled on the Nazification of Germany which brings us back to Sebastian Haffner's book Defying Hitler.

The general public today understands very little about the actual Nazi takeover, the "Nazi Revolution," as they liked to call it. Yet it is in this process - in really understanding it - that we can come to perceive the signs and symptoms of how a civilized nation could be taken over by madmen who then sought to use the population as pawns to take over the World. And make no mistake about it: history shows that Hitler certainly intended to conquer the world! The same goal is driving the already existing One World Government which merely wants to make their rulership open and official.

That was certainly the case with the neo-liberals leading on to Hillary.

But Trump beat Hillary. So, how are the PTB going to work Trump - a kind of simple guy - to get the same result?

Think about it.


Added: see also: https://www.facinghistory.org/holocaust-and-human-behavior/chapter-5/working-toward-fuhrer

Are you saying that if enough people come to perceive the "signs and symptoms" of takeover by madmen, THAT is the cure? If enough people are immune to the hystericization process and the pathological thinking that follows the skid into madness will stop? That is what Lobaczewski argues, in a nutshell, isn't it?

I have a some other questions from what I read, apologies for the length of this post:

Haffner said:
Did not some of the surface waves send out vibrations, as evidenced by a new jittery tension, a new intolerance and heated readiness to hate, which began to infect private political discussions, and even more by the unrelenting pressure to think about politics all the time? Was it not a remarkable effect of politics on private life that we suddenly considered any normal daily private event as a political demonstration?

Be that as it may, I still clung to this normal un-political life. There was no angle from which I could attack the Nazis. Well then, at least I would not let them interfere with my personal life.

This "unrelenting pressure to think about politics all the time" is definitely present in the US right now. Each day I hear everyone talking about politics and it is the first or second topic that is broached in every conversation before or after the weather. Many of my millennial friends feel that the Women's March and last night's riots at UC Berkeley are forms of "resistance", but I hardly see how they could be since they are encouraged and condoned by the MSM and public figures who are openly opposed to Trump. They are forms of "resistance" that have been tried many times in the past and have always failed.

If there is no angle from which I can attack the Nazis, and there's nowhere to go to escape them, what can I do? Keep reading and trying to understand? Keep asking questions?

Haffner said:
True, something further was necessary to achieve all this. That was the cowardly treachery of all party and organisational leaders, to whom the 56 per cent of the population who had voted against the Nazis on the 5th of March had entrusted themselves. This terrible and decisive event was not much noticed by the outside world. Naturally, the Nazis had no interest in drawing attention to it, since it would considerably devalue their 'victory', and as for the traitors themselves: well, of course, they did not want attention drawn to it. Nevertheless, it is finally only this betrayal that explains the almost inexplicable fact that a great nation, which cannot have consisted entirely of cowards, fell into ignominy without a fight.

The betrayal was complete, extending from Left to Right. [...]

This cowardly treachery began a long time ago, as you cover in your article, and IMO was much more insidious here in the US than in Germany, but maybe its because I've been living it and hindsight is 20/20. The betrayal is complete at this point and almost everyone seems to be playing for the same team. So I'm wondering what you make of Tulsi Gabbard (just one example, not that there are many). She seems to be speaking up. Is she truly displaying courage and "breeding," or is she another tool?


LKJ said:
One most important point needs to be made here: the phenomenon has nothing to do with the Ideologies used by the various deviant players. Being a psychopath is common to any and all groups, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. The second point is: Just because we can identify many Zionists as a gang of psychopathic manipulators on one side, because they have used Judaism as their ruse, and have hidden themselves behind the masses of normal Jews, does not mean that their ostensible nemesis, Adolf Hitler, was a "good guy." In fact, it is not uncommon for psychopaths to play exactly this sort of game: to be working together behind the scenes while presenting a confrontational farce for the consumption of the masses.

This is an important point to keep in mind when dealing with Trump, IMO. Just because he appears to be the enemy of the neoliberalcon establishment does not mean he is a "good guy". This is part of your point, no?


LKJ said:
But what is it that makes a society so vulnerable? Haffner has described what happened, we need to turn to Lobaczewski to understand the psychology of WHY it happened. How does an entire society have a Nervous Breakdown, fall into a state of total moral collapse? How do they become susceptible to the machinations of pathological deviants? Lobaczewski wrote:
Lobaczewski said:
During happy times of peace and social injustice, children of the privileged classes learn to repress from their field of consciousness any of those uncomfortable concepts suggesting that they and their parents benefit from injustice. Young people learn to disqualify the moral and mental values of anyone whose work they are using to over-advantage. Young minds thus ingest habits of subconscious selection and substitution of data, which leads to a hysterical conversion economy of reasoning. They grow up to be somewhat hysterical adults who, by means of the ways adduced above, thereupon transmit their hysteria to the younger generation, which then develops these characteristics to a greater degree. The hysterical patterns for experience and behavior grow and spread downwards from the privileged classes until crossing the boundary of the first criterion of ponerology.

[The atrophy of natural critical faculties with respect to pathological individuals becomes an opening to their activities, and, at the same time, a criterion for recognizing the association in concern as ponerogenic. Let us call this the first criterion of ponerogenesis.]

When the habits of subconscious selection and substitution of thought-data spread to the macro-social level, a society tends to develop contempt for factual criticism and to humiliate anyone sounding an alarm. Contempt is also shown for other nations which have maintained normal thought-patterns and for their opinions. Egotistic thought-terrorization is accomplished by the society itself and its processes of conversive thinking. This obviates the need for censorship of the press, theater, or broadcasting, as a pathologically hypersensitive censor lives within the citizens themselves.

When three "egos" govern, egoism, egotism, and egocentrism, the feeling of social links and responsibility disappear, and the society in question splinters into groups ever more hostile to each other. When a hysterical environment stops differentiating the opinions of limited, not-quite-normal people from those of normal, reasonable persons, this opens the door for activation of the pathological factors ... (Andrew Lobaczewski, Political Ponerology)

The process that Lobaczewski describes here is becoming clearer and clearer to me as things ramp up here. The hysterical thinking. They entitlement. The splintering of society "into groups ever more hostile to each other". The open contempt for factual criticism. I'm sure this is all old news for many of you and in many ways it is for me, but recently I have been experiencing these things in a much more personal way. My question here is: what do we do at this point? When faced with growing "contempt for factual criticism" coming from those who are normally at least somewhat reasonable? Should we just keep trying to get through to them? Is it better to observe and try to understand? Depends on the situation?


Rees said:
The idea that the Gestapo itself was constantly spying on the population is demonstrably a myth.

So how was it possible that so few people exercised such control?

The simple answer is because the Gestapo received enormous help from ordinary Germans. Like all modern policing systems, the Gestapo was only as good or bad as the cooperation it received - and the files reveal that it received a high level of cooperation, making it a very good secret police force indeed.

Only around 10 per cent of political crimes committed between 1933 and 1945 were actually discovered by the Gestapo; another 10 per cent of cases were passed on to the Gestapo by the regular police or the Nazi Party. This means that around 80 per cent of all political crime was discovered by ordinary citizens who turned the information over to the police or the Gestapo. The files also show that most of this unpaid cooperation came from people who were not members of the Nazi Party - they were 'ordinary' citizens.

Yet there was never a duty to denounce or inform. The mass of files in the Würzburg archive came into being because some non-party member voluntarily denounced a fellow German. Far from being a proactive organization that resolutely sought out its political enemies itself, the Gestapo's main job was sorting out the voluntary denunciations it received.

This section immediately brought the NSA spying programs and Snowden to mind for me. It is considered common knowledge at this point with most of the people I know that the NSA reads all of our emails, listens in on our phonecalls and even taps into our Nest thermostats to see how warm we like our apartments. I think y'all expressed doubts about Snowden early on and he could still be either a plant or an tool of those wishing to plant this kind of "the gestapo are everywhere" idea into the minds of the people. Interesting parallel, OSIT.


Rees said:
Denunciations became a way in which Germans could make their voices heard in a system that had turned away from democracy; you see somebody who should be in the army but is not - you denounce them; you hear somebody tell a joke about Hitler - you denounce them as well. Denunciations could also be used for personal gain; you want the flat an old Jewish lady lives in - you denounce her; your neighbours irritate you - you denounce them too.

How long until this sort of thing starts up en masse? What defense is there against this? Anything?

Rees said:
During his many months of research in the Würzburg archive Professor Gellately struggled hard to find a 'hero' - someone who had stood up to the regime, an antidote, if you like, to the bleak aspect that the study of the Gestapo files casts on human nature. He believed he had found just such a person in Ilse Sonja Totzke, who went to Würzburg as a music student in the 1930s.

Her Gestapo file reveals that she became an object of suspicion for those around her.

The first person to denounce her was a distant relative, who said that she was inclined to be too friendly to Jews and that she knew too much about things that should be of no concern to women, such as military matters. This relative said that he felt driven to tell the Gestapo this because he was a reserve officer (though there was nothing in being a reserve officer that required him to do so).

Totzke was put under general surveillance by the Gestapo, but this surveillance took a strange form: it consisted of the Gestapo asking her neighbours to keep an eye on her.

There follows in the file a mass of contradictory evidence supplied by her neighbours. Sometimes Totzke gave the 'Hitler greeting' (Heil Hitler) and sometimes she didn't, but overall she made it clear that she was not going to avoid socializing with Jews (something which at this point was not a crime). One anonymous denouncer even hinted that Totzke might be a lesbian ('Miss Totzke doesn't seem to have normal predispositions'). But there is no concrete evidence that she had committed any offence.

Nonetheless, it was enough for the Gestapo to bring her in for questioning. The account of her interrogation in the file shows that she was bluntly warned about her attitude, but the Gestapo clearly didn't think she was a spy, or guilty of any of the outlandish accusations made against her. She was simply unconventional. The denunciations, however, kept coming in, and eventually the file landed on the desk of one of the most bloodthirsty Gestapo officials in Würzburg - Gormosky of Branch 2B, which dealt with Jews.

On 28 October 1941 Totzke was summoned for an interrogation. The Gestapo kept an immaculate record of what was said. Totzke acknowledged that, 'If I have anything to do with Jews any more, I know that I can reckon on a concentration camp.'

But despite this, she still kept up her friendship with Jews and was ordered once more to report to the Gestapo. She took flight with a friend and tried to cross the border into Switzerland, but the Swiss customs officials turned her over to the German authorities. In the course of a long interrogation conducted in southwest Germany, she said:
'I, for one, find the Nuremberg Laws and Nazi anti-Semitism to be totally unacceptable. I find it intolerable that such a country as Germany exists and I do not want to live here any longer.'
Eventually, after another lengthy interrogation in Würzburg, Totzke was sent to the women's concentration camp at Ravensbrück, from which we have no reason to believe she ever returned. Her courage cost her her life.

So... to make a long story short, the one person they could find in the Gestapo files who stood up to them and refused to be broken ended up dead in a concentration camp. My question here is, what good is it to stubbornly and openly resist in a society gone mad? Is it a matter of the soul? One MUST resist, or not. Is it a matter of inevitability? In other words if are there only 2 choices: to resist or to be broken, is it better to resist from the start and lose your life than to allow yourself to be broken?

LKJ said:
In the Chaos of today, have YOU consented to atrocity? Or, do you have "breeding"?

How many Frau Kraus' are there today in America, Europe or around the world? Unassuming, ordinary people yet whose minds have been softened by subconscious selection and substitution, a sense of entitlement to the lifestyle supported by the suffering of others, infected by years of a psychopathic "morality" leaving them supremely susceptible to the type of organised hysteria that led Frau Kraus to condemn her neighbor, an innocent woman, to death 65 years ago in Germany. Are there such people among your friends, your family members? More importantly, is there one when you look in the mirror?

There are many, many Frau Kraus' starting with the "leaders" we hoped would stand up to this madness and betrayed us long ago. This brings me back to my initial thought:

One thought I had is that understanding this process is a form of "cultural self-remembering". If enough people understand this process well enough and know how to resist it humanity could avoid falling into the same trap time and again.

I know I don't fully grok what is happening but I can taste it, smell it. I am here. I read and I try to understand, try to network, try to rework pathologically infected thought patterns and programs. I have conversations with my friends and family and try to encourage them to think when I don't see the full picture myself. Am I doing it "right"? Learning to be more aware on 3 levels and trying to help others into the step behind me? Is resistance a personal struggle that we all must undertake? Haffner's "duel":

Haffner said:
This is the story of a duel.

It is a duel between two very unequal adversaries: an exceedingly powerful, formidable and ruthless state and an insignificant, unknown private individual. The duel does not take place in what is commonly known as the sphere of politics; the individual is by no means a politician, still less a conspirator, or an enemy of the state. Throughout, he finds himself very much on the defensive. He only wishes to preserve what he considers his integrity, his private life and his personal honour. These are under constant attack by the Government of the country he lives in, and by the most brutal, but often also clumsy, means. ...

The individual is ... ill-prepared for the onslaught. He was not born a hero, still less a martyr. He is just an ordinary man with many weaknesses, having grown up in vulnerable times. He is nevertheless stubbornly antagonistic. So he enters into the duel - without enthusiasm, shrugging his shoulders but with a quiet determination not to yield. He is of course, much weaker than his opponent, but rather more agile. You will see him duck and weave, dodge his foe and dart back, evading crushing blows by a whisker. You will have to admit that, for someone who is neither a hero nor a martyr, he manages to put up a good fight. Finally, however, you will see him compelled to abandon the struggle, or if you will transfer it to another plane.

Is this duel worth dying for? Worth endangering friends and family? I think so but I know that I have not been truly tested yet.

LKJ said:
Just as everyone who does not stand up against the Fascism galloping across the planet today is just as guilty of murder as the one who commits the act. Any American who does not stand against incarceration without habeas corpus, is guilty if violating the constitution. Anyone who does not stand against torture, wherever it happens, is guilty of torture and guilty of the death of the victim if the torture results in their death. Any person who does not stand against the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, is guilty of the deaths of over a million innocent Iraqis and Afghans.

Am I doing enough? Am I really speaking out against torture by sending out a few tweets and conversing with like-minded friends when there is little danger? What will happen to me if/when the rubber really hits the road? Do I have the character, the conviction, "breeding" to stand up when it really matters? These are the kinds of questions that keep me up at night.

I hope these questions and thoughts are productive and not just noise. Just trying to understand...
 
Hello H2O said:
[...]
It was on the morning news here. Their tried and true obfuscating methods were used in the story. The story starts with, 'various unconfirmed reports are saying that Trump declared he might have to invade Mexico.... blah blah. And later, 'depending on what version of the story you want to believe'... then reiterating the original statement. This of course puts it out there in peoples minds, like coded words sent to the sheep. And will probably end up on a sign in some protest in the future. as if it was truth. With many willing to follow along, having itching ears, wanting to hear what they want to hear. I think that reviewing the possibility that many are programmed, to go off, all at once, this seems to be an aspect of it. But I think that there is still more sinister things to come. It could be in stages, and this is just the first part.

The government also released a statement on Twitter, saying that the comment “did not happen during that call.”
https://sputniknews.com/us/201702021050293033-mexico-denies-ap-trump-call-claims/
 
If this Executive Order ends up being issued, it will definitely "send chills up (my) spine".

Leaked Draft of Trump’s Religious Freedom Order
Reveals Sweeping Plans to Legalize Discrimination


by Sarah Posner
The Nation
2-1-17


A leaked copy of a draft executive order titled “Establishing a Government-Wide Initiative to Respect Religious Freedom,” obtained by The Investigative Fund and The Nation, reveals sweeping plans by the Trump administration to legalize discrimination.

The four-page draft order, a copy of which is currently circulating among federal staff and advocacy organizations, construes religious organizations so broadly that it covers “any organization, including closely held for-profit corporations,” and protects “religious freedom” in every walk of life: “when providing social services, education, or healthcare; earning a living, seeking a job, or employing others; receiving government grants or contracts; or otherwise participating in the marketplace, the public square, or interfacing with Federal, State or local governments.”

Language in the draft document specifically protects the tax-exempt status of any organization that “believes, speaks, or acts (or declines to act) in accordance with the belief that marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman, sexual relations are properly reserved for such a marriage, male and female and their equivalents refer to an individual’s immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy, physiology, or genetics at or before birth, and that human life begins at conception and merits protection at all stages of life.”
...
“This executive order would appear to require agencies to provide extensive exemptions from a staggering number of federal laws—without regard to whether such laws substantially burden religious exercise,” said Marty Lederman, a professor at Georgetown University Law Center and an expert on church-state separation and religious freedom.
...
White House spokesman Sean Spicer told reporters, “I’m not getting ahead of the executive orders that we may or may not issue. There is a lot of executive orders, a lot of things that the president has talked about and will continue to fulfill, but we have nothing on that front now.”
...
UPDATE 2-2-17:
A White House official, speaking with ABC News, did not dispute the authenticity of the draft religious freedom executive order, but officials said it is one of hundreds circulating, some drafted by the transition team, others by the White House [whichever, it's "chilling" to see such thinking even proposed by key policy-makers surrounding Trump], not all of which are likely to become policy. The official did not say who drafted this particular order.

https://www.thenation.com/article/leaked-draft-of-trumps-religious-freedom-order-reveals-sweeping-plans-to-legalize-discrimination/
 
Wright Mills' book, The Power Elite (1956), indicates that the key to understanding American concerns lies in the over-organization of its society.

George Soros and the Anti-Trump Plot
http://katehon.com/article/george-soros-and-anti-trump-plot

Thus, the establishment is "the elite group formed by the union of the political, military, economic, university and mass media sub-elites of the USA” and lobbies of pressure that are interconnected by "a restless alliance based on their community of interests and directed by military metaphysics.” This concept is based on a military definition of reality and transforms the economy into a permanent economic war whose paradigm would be Rockefeller’s. This means full participation in the financial, military, and, “Jewish industry” one of whose members, David Rockefeller, would be the impeller of the Trilateral Commission(TC) or Trilateral (1973).

Yet Donald Trump, a candidate who in principle is totally refractory to party discipline and has become the "black sheep" of the establishment, was finally elected President of the United States in the November presidential elections. His surprise triumph along with that of Brexit will mark the end of the "stage" of the teleological "scenario in which the purpose of the creative processes were planned by finite models in which the intention, the purpose and the anticipation and its substitution by the ‘teleonomic scene’ [are] marked by extreme doses of volatility” that will affect in a special way the New World Geopolitical Order.

New Geopolitical InterPares (G3)

With Trump, we will witness the termination of the United State’s unipolarity and its role of global gendarme and its replacement with the new doctrine of Multipolarity or “Geopolitical Inter-Pairing” formed by the troika of the US, China, and Russia (G3). The EU, Japan, India and Brazil will be guests of stone in the new geopolitical scenario. Thus, in a speech given by Trump at the headquarters of the influential political magazine The National Interest, Donald Trump presented the main lines of his foreign policy that could be synthesized in his motto “America first", which de facto means the return of economic protectionism after canceling the Free Trade Agreement with Canada and Mexico (TLCAN) as well as the TTIP and the Transpacific Partnership (TPP), i.e., the central piece of the Obama Administration in its policy of reaffirming economic power and military supremacy in the Pacific region. This would be a direct hit on the geopolitical interests known as the "club of the Islands" with assets of around € 10 trillion and whose head, according to the Russian spy Daniel Estulin, is the financial and expert designer of “color revolutions”, George Soros.

On the other hand, in an interview with the American TV channel ABC, President-elect Donald Trump expressed the idea that "NATO is obsolete, does not serve to combat terrorism and costs too much to the US", demanded that the European countries that are members of NATO "pay their share" because the economic contribution of these European countries is be a meager 2% of the national GDP, leaving the bulk of the funding in the hands of the US (70% of the total budget).

Trump also denounced the "excessive amount of weaponry currently circulating in the world" which would imply the assumption of the US isolationism on the military level, and the enthronement of the G-3 (USA, Russia and China) as "primus peer" in global governance. This would mean the suspension of the US nuclear program with a duration of thirty years and a cost of a Billion $ as well as the stoppage of the system designed to detect cruise missiles in US territory (JLENS) so it would be a missile on the line Of the military-industrial complex that has shaped for the post-Obama stage the recovery of the role of the US as a world gendarme through the fifth phase of the deployment of the missile shield in Europe (Euro DAM) and an extraordinary increase of US military interventions in The exterior (read New Middle East War).

Soros and the anti-Trump plot

Even Eisenhower, the CIA was only the central intelligence organization for the United States government and was behind multiple tasks of insurgent training and destabilization of governments opposed to Pentagon policies, but the military and financial lobbies (both phagocytosed by the Jewish lobby) could not resist the temptation to create a de facto government that manipulated the intricacies of power, resulting in the emergence of a new entity (Eisenhower's military-industrial complex), refractory to public opinion and to the control of the Congress and Senate of the United States). At present, the company would have been transformed into the so-called Homeland Security and to the Hydra-CIA would have been born 17 new heads in the form of intelligence agencies that would integrate the American Intelligence Community (the Fourth Branch of the Government according to Tom Engelhardt), pathogens of a totalitarian nature, and become a parallel state, true power in the shadow phagocytes by the "Club of the Islands" of George Soros, and that would have been conjured up against a Trump supporter of the Geopolitics Primus InterPares or G3.

This anti-Trump plot would have been designed following the recent meeting in Washington in which nearly 200 campaigners from Hillary Clinton participated in the so-called Alliance for Democracy (DA), a mega-organization founded by George Soros in 2005.

This is the first phase to torpedo the Obama-Trump transfer of powers through a "patriotic or multicolored revolution" in the USA. According to the website Zero Hedge, the spontaneous popular anti-Trump demonstrations would have been inspired by the website MoveOn.org, sponsored by Soros under the motto "Get up and fight for American ideals", and whose second phase would be truncating the political career of Trump, after which Vice-President Mike Pence would assume the Presidency and return to the path of the pseudo-democracies guarded by the true Power in the shadow of the USA (Fourth Branch of the Government).


A British man and a Swedish woman have been arrested for disabling 70 percent of the CCTV cameras in Washington in the days leading up to US President Donald Trump’s inauguration.

Two Arrested in London for Hacking DC CCTV Cameras on Eve of Trump Inauguration
https://sputniknews.com/europe/201702031050295900-two-arrested-cyber-attack-inauguration/

At the request of the US government, the National Crime Agency detained the two 50-year-olds in Streatham, South London, for helping to disable 123 of Washington’s 187 CCTV security video cameras. Authorities believe the incident may have been a dry run for a similar hack planned for the inauguration.

There were 28,000 law enforcement personnel on hand at the inauguration for a crowd estimated at some 900,000, and photos of the event showed attendance was scant, compared to previous inaugurations.

The unprecedented amount of security was driven not only by tensions between Trump supporters and detractors, but also by recent global terror attacks. For instance, authorities made sure to be prepared for a truck attack such as was seen in recent attacks in Berlin and Nice, France.

Although Trump was protected by over 900 Secret Service agents, an Inauguration Day CCTV blackout of that magnitude would have thrown the security detail into disarray. Last week, US officials confirmed that, between January 12-15, most cameras in the Washington DC area were not functional, and an investigation was initiated when it was discovered that many of the cameras were not functional.

The investigation revealed that sophisticated software was used to infiltrate the surveillance system. The cameras were out of service for 48 hours, according to Washington interim Police Chief Peter Newsham.

Washington DC’s Chief Technology Officer, Archana Vemulapalli, told the Washington Post that, "the city paid no ransom and resolved the problem by taking the devices offline."

The suspects were identified before they could carry out another hack during January’s inauguration activities.

According to the NCA, the "officers executed a search warrant at an address in Natal Road, SW16, on the evening of Thursday 19 January. A man and a woman were arrested and later bailed until April 2017."


Despite media representing protests against US President Donald Trump as grassroots spontaneous uprisings, there is actually a significant amount of money being spent on special interest groups to keep the disruptions happening.

Billionaire Financier Soros Continues to Fund Anti-Trump Protests
https://sputniknews.com/us/201702021050292146-soros-anti-trump-protests/

As we previously reported, billionaire financier George Soros has provided funding to at least 56 of the “partner” organizations, including National Resource Defense Council and Planned Parenthood, on the Women’s March on DC. MoveOn.org has also been consistently organizing and calling for protests, and shocker, is also financed by Soros. While protesters themselves may not always be “paid” in any monetary way, the organizations often provide them with legal aid, housing, food, or other comforts to encourage protest or other activities that fit their agenda.

There’s kind of a tradition of paid protesters. That’s not a job per say, but special interest groups have funds, they are somewhat quite organized. They will pay people to protest in support of an issue. They provide attorneys, they provide places for them to stay, they rent houses, they provide medics for them,” David Carter, professor of the School of Criminal Justice and director of the Intelligence program at Michigan State University, as well as a former Kansas City, Missouri, police officer, recently told Sputnik News.

The source of funding for this unrest is important to note, as organizations affiliated with the billionaire have been deeply connected to color revolutions and political uprisings across the globe, including Arab Spring. This point has led many to question what his end goal is for the US, where heavily-funded protests are raging on over a fair and free election.

Soros is effectively the puppet-master pulling most of the strings in Kiev. Soros Foundation’s Ukraine branch, International Renaissance Foundation (IRF), has been involved in Ukraine since 1989. His IRF doled out more than $100 million to Ukrainian NGOs two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, creating the preconditions for Ukraine’s independence from Russia in 1991. Soros also admitted to financing the 2013-2014 Maidan Square protests that brought the current government into power,” a report in the New Eastern Outlook journal explained in 2015.

These “democracy-building” projects have been used, much like the Clinton Foundation in Haiti, to line Soros’ own pockets.

“Make no mistake that the events you’re seeing transpire nationwide are being orchestrated in part by a billionaire political elite class that is looking to subvert the will of the American people by attempting to foment a new American revolution. Soros’ formula has been duplicated in numerous nations, and it looks as if he now has the US in his sights as the next target,” the Free Thought Project wrote of Soros meddling in November 2016.
 
Seamas said:
This is an important point to keep in mind when dealing with Trump, IMO. Just because he appears to be the enemy of the neoliberalcon establishment does not mean he is a "good guy". This is part of your point, no?


It does seem that way. It would have been easy to set him up with something so heinous to destroy his credibility, even lock him up. Anyone who has gone to the point of being a major candidate, has been vetted (using one of Trump's popular terms) by the elite. It's been a great narrative to distract people while thing are going in the same direction. Maybe more Obama's- like a Hillary, would enrage the right too much- got to keep both sides satiated. It's always a funny coincidence that the other side gets blamed for issues and they don't usually let there be a majority. You have a mixed congress and a middle president, or a right congress and a left president, and so on. Great excuse why Obama couldn't do anything. Boo hoo, "i tried". SICK !!!

The process that Lobaczewski describes here is becoming clearer and clearer to me as things ramp up here. The hysterical thinking. They entitlement. The splintering of society "into groups ever more hostile to each other". The open contempt for factual criticism. I'm sure this is all old news for many of you and in many ways it is for me, but recently I have been experiencing these things in a much more personal way. My question here is: what do we do at this point? When faced with growing "contempt for factual criticism" coming from those who are normally at least somewhat reasonable? Should we just keep trying to get through to them? Is it better to observe and try to understand? Depends on the situation?
[/size]<snip>
Is this duel worth dying for? Worth endangering friends and family? I think so but I know that I have not been truly tested yet.


<snip>

Am I doing enough? Am I really speaking out against torture by sending out a few tweets and conversing with like-minded friends when there is little danger? What will happen to me if/when the rubber really hits the road? Do I have the character, the conviction, "breeding" to stand up when it really matters? These are the kinds of questions that keep me up at night.

I hope these questions and thoughts are productive and not just noise. Just trying to understand...


Great questions. I think what agility was described in Haffner's duel and the rest of his book was to keep his wits while the rest have gone mad. He did miss opportunities to leave, but that is not always available. Nowadays, the system is global. We have NATO all over- which Trump makes to look like is doing Europe favors "that they aren't paying for", HAHA.


I don't think you die for the duel if you choose not to get yourself in those situations where you DO have to follow some sick twisted order. Authoritarian followers were probably quick to volunteer to be high level political and military leaders who helped execute the holocaust. They "sold their soul" to fit in. Those who blindly supported them ("support our troops", etc) gave whatever little free will they had to choose, by choosing "us vs them". That's the whole garbage now with Trump vs anti-Trump. Both sickened me, and we see here the choice to not side with either idealogy- to practice critical thinking in any policy- fueled by our compassion for humanity- NOT some ideology or religion! On the same page, as Haffner showed, we shouldn't feel entitled that our choice to not side is something that others will understand. So, a Trump follower, such as my supervisor- I entertain his "political stories". The friends who are left leaning, I entertain their complaints about Trump. It keeps you safe to not fight the inevitable.


Am I getting this strategy wrong? I don't recall Haffner choosing a side, but playing a role to not be attacked, but at the same time not be called upon as a leader to do the horrific acts of that time.


It also protects friends and family to play the role as an indecisive middle person. I hope it doesn't become "if you aren't with us you are with them", but even that can be played. Honesty with everyone is weakness!


The hardest thing about this for me is the loss of hope, how enmeshed this narrative of politics has captured people's emotions and thoughts. It angers me a lot to hear all of this propaganda from both sides lacking compassion for all.


Maybe this is only what matters now.
 
JGeropoulas said:
If this Executive Order ends up being issued, it will definitely "send chills up (my) spine".

Leaked Draft of Trump’s Religious Freedom Order
Reveals Sweeping Plans to Legalize Discrimination


by Sarah Posner
The Nation
2-1-17


A leaked copy of a draft executive order titled “Establishing a Government-Wide Initiative to Respect Religious Freedom,” obtained by The Investigative Fund and The Nation, reveals sweeping plans by the Trump administration to legalize discrimination.

The four-page draft order, a copy of which is currently circulating among federal staff and advocacy organizations, construes religious organizations so broadly that it covers “any organization, including closely held for-profit corporations,” and protects “religious freedom” in every walk of life: “when providing social services, education, or healthcare; earning a living, seeking a job, or employing others; receiving government grants or contracts; or otherwise participating in the marketplace, the public square, or interfacing with Federal, State or local governments.”

Language in the draft document specifically protects the tax-exempt status of any organization that “believes, speaks, or acts (or declines to act) in accordance with the belief that marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman, sexual relations are properly reserved for such a marriage, male and female and their equivalents refer to an individual’s immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy, physiology, or genetics at or before birth, and that human life begins at conception and merits protection at all stages of life.”

Oh boy, this is a tricky one: how far can you go to force people to do things against their conscience? And do you want to?

I've never thought it was right to force people who believe that abortion or homosexuality is wrong to accept it within their own "enclaves" or whatever. Of course, that would only apply to religious organizations, IMO, and not to regular for-profit businesses. If you have a business, your right to be licensed means that you serve the public as long as they are not disruptive. A business should not be allowed to keep its license if it discriminates without good cause and that cause can't be religious or racial.

But then, what about nuns who work in hospitals? Or doctors who are strong believers? Is the hospital a for profit organization, or is it owned by the religious org? On the one hand, I don't think they should have to perform abortions if it is against their conscience but if that is the case, they should either make sure it is a hospital fully owned and operated by the religion where they work in service to that religion, and if it is not, they should find another job if they can't fulfill the requirements of a for-profit hospital.

Same with burkas and hijabs and such: if they want to wear them to their religious place, or at home, fine, but not on the job or at school unless it is a school owned and operated by their religion. I was reading the other day about a Muslim girl who got a job as a flight attendant and refused to serve alcohol to the passengers. Well, she needs to be fired because serving drinks is part of the job. She should not be allowed to bring her religion to work if the company is not owned and operated by the religion and she volunteering to serve.

So, I don't know how this business is going to sort out, but I think that it could be very bad or very good depending on how it is worded in the end.
 

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