Trump era: Fascist dawn, or road to liberation?
- Thread starter Cosmos
- Start date
NormaRegula said:
I've been having a similar experience. I find it very interesting that the conservative tribe currently has more critical thinking skills, during the Bush years they were the ones that seemed to have totally lost it but now most "liberals" have totally lost it. A few years ago I would have self identified as a liberal or progressive but right now conservatives like Paul Joseph Watson and Stefan Molyneaux are making a heck of a lot more sense to me. Stefan Molyneaux released a video on Youtube the other day that starts out addressing the visa suspension executive order "Muslim ban" and then goes on to talk about "teams". Skip to about 2/3 of the way through if you just want to listen to that part.
https://youtu.be/9OVnqerWUHg
I think this is relevant to our discussion because the terms "conservative" and "liberal" don't necessarily mean much in terms of ideology anymore, they are more like teams. Especially on the national level most politicians are "neoliberalcons" who are all happy to go along with the shock doctrine foreign policy while the put up a rabble-rousing show about domestic issues to keep everyone distracted. Many Americans want to win, they want their team to win and they are trained to hate the other team and their fans. Red Sox vs Yankees. Cowboys vs Giants. Warriors vs Cavaliers. Lakers vs Celtics. Etc. etc. So I'm agreeing with you. Millions of Americans want their team to win and they hate the other team and hope they lose.
Scottie said:
Its pretty interesting to watch! I've noticed the same thing about people coming out of the woodwork to attack Trump for "banning Muslims" when Obama bombed all of their countries for 8 years! As Stefan Molyneaux says (paraphrasing) "Now all of a sudden you're upset? Where have you been all this time? Oh that's right, its okay if Obama does it because he's on YOUR team."
I've been trying to take a similar neutral approach by posting questions to try to encourage people to question the assumptions that they pick up from the MSM, but most of my FB friends seem to be too delicate right now to handle it. They don't want to think in a different way, they are in hysterical black and white mode.
That said I've had a few interesting conversations with people IRL. Yesterday I had lunch with a couple friends who are Chinese citizens and they said they are shutting down or cleaning up their social media accounts and laying low because they don't want trouble with ICE and the TSA. I said I didn't realize that the recent executive orders would effect people like them and they said that it was because of Obama's policies! We had a good quiet laugh about all of the "Obama is great" snowflakes. It seems that many people who disagree with the very vocal minority are lying low, at least here in the San Francisco area.
angelburst29
The Living Force
Alejo said:
I would think, it would be in Mexico's best interest to diversify it's investments and Trade Agreements. In this way, Mexico isn't putting all it's eggs in one basket, which unfortunately, was the case in many of the Trade deals between Mexico and the US. It basically gave the US "leverage" over what Mexico could and could not do in some of it's enterprises.
With a stroke of a pen, President Trump actually did Mexico a big favor by withdrawing from TPP and setting about in renegotiating NAFTA AND taking steps to secure the Border between Mexico and the US. It gives Mexico an opportunity to act more independently and expand it's economic interests.
If the US was to suffer a Color Revolution, which is a strong possibility at this point - would Mexico - still want "open Border's?"
Mexico Eyeing Extension of Trade Deal With EU Amid Possible Collapse of NAFTA
https://sputniknews.com/latam/201702011050222611-mexico-eu-nafta/
On January 23, the US president signed an executive order withdrawing the United States from Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) free trade treaty, and promised to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
On Tuesday, Guajardo announced that Mexico had launched free trade negotiations with Australia, Brunei, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and Vietnam following the United States withdrawal from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) free trade treaty.
"We are preparing for the third round of talks with the European Union to expand our agreement. I had a telephone conversation with European Commissioner for Trade Cecilia Malmstrom and we plan to accelerate our negotiations," Guajardo said at a press conference.
Divide by Zero
The Living Force
Seamas said:
There's also the nutties like Scott Walker who are trying to destroy unions getting a say with Trump. No critical thinking on his part, he's part of the war on the working class- with government workers and "right to work" laws:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/scott-walker-advises-white-house-gutting-federal-unions-article-1.2961839
People like to bash government workers, distracted from the huge waste of privatization. I work for a local government agency that fights us to make us not take a raise for some years, while wasting billions on private contractors for projects that are half the time not needed.
But the right wingers see privatization as cheaper, because the right wing leadership makes it sound "logical".
So, critical thinking in appearance, but short sighted. It's like wall street and their justification for huge profits... sounds logical, but deep down it's manipulative and a lie sandwiched in truth.
Divide By Zero said:
DBZ,
I have to say I agree with you after working for state government for about 25 years I saw the gradual shift to privatization. There is rarely much sympathy for government employees being lost to attrition and replaced by private companies.
There are many losers in this whole game. I came from a family that was in the thick of the coal miners being attacked by Pinkerton thugs. They had to live in tents and were shot at by mercenaries hired by the coal companies who kept them as serfs spending their wages at the company stores owned by the company of course.
Of course then the unions became corrupted as well so now the working man is again without much support from pubic opinion.
It's the common folk that seem to get the short end of the stick and we are left grabbing at glimpses of hope offered by the next elected official who promises he will defend the working class.
Divide By Zero said:
True, there are definitely insane people and insane arguments on both sides. Even if someone like Paul Joseph Watson makes alot of sense in some of his video posts he is still an ardent supporter of Israel and he seems locked into a conservative ideology with all that entails. Grains of salt are needed all around.
"Liberals" do seem more hysterical as a group ATM and critical thinking goes out the window with hysteria. That's what I was commenting on earlier.
DBZ said:
Absolutely! The argument that private businesses are "more efficient" is just an excuse for politicians to outsource big taxpayer funded contracts to their buddies, or well meaning politicians being taken advantage of. The other side of the "private business is more efficient" campaign is to paint government jobs as cushy and government employees as lucky, lazy bums who get paid alot without having to do much.
Just another example of twisted, pathological thinking that serves the interests of the wealthy and divides the general population.
piliangie
Jedi
Alejo:
I agree with you all the way,that it can Be good to Mexico if you search my other comments that's what I have been said, that is time to Mexico to look to the south or other countrys..of course! But trump ? I looks that is not going to stop he is very paranoid , and narcissist..he is very offensive to Mexicans, do you think is necessary? I don't think so, you can't push so many buttons and expect that you are going to win win...México is not the same since 2 centuries ago, USA always have been the bullies to Mexico and Mexico always respond in better ways, what I'm trying to say is that we have dignity I don't care what you believe or not , he is offensive, and an entertainer .......and really who really wants to make deals with a president so hostile?
I agree with you all the way,that it can Be good to Mexico if you search my other comments that's what I have been said, that is time to Mexico to look to the south or other countrys..of course! But trump ? I looks that is not going to stop he is very paranoid , and narcissist..he is very offensive to Mexicans, do you think is necessary? I don't think so, you can't push so many buttons and expect that you are going to win win...México is not the same since 2 centuries ago, USA always have been the bullies to Mexico and Mexico always respond in better ways, what I'm trying to say is that we have dignity I don't care what you believe or not , he is offensive, and an entertainer .......and really who really wants to make deals with a president so hostile?
One idea that's been sitting around in my head for awhile is that, if the return of Nazism was an inevitable part of the plan to exterminate semitic races, and this increaese in islamophobia is indispensable for this, why was Trump not favored by the PTBs? He seems much more willing to play that role than Hillary and the progressives, who are highly accepting and inclusive of islam, and are well aware of the ways in which muslims are demozied from the behavior of radicals and western-backed wahhabi nutjobs.
One theory I had was that, perhaps the "tolerance" of islam was supposed to be official protocol for the next few years or so, in order to build further public fear of radical islamic terror, and cement the notion that the state was not going to proect them sufficiently from it? If this gaslighting of the common american people went on further with more false flag attacks framing muslims, but then simultaneously welcoming more refugees into the country, perhaps the anti-muslim sentiments would have grown to be even more feverish than they currently are? Perhaps this build-up was mean to be exploited in order to create even more public wishes to crack down on them when an out-and-out fascist leader did get into power. What I mean is that, maybe Trump and his islamophobic rhetoric - in a way - sort of "set off the bomb" before the rest of the charges were in place, so to speak? So the left is more able to effectively mobilize against islamophobia now than it would have been maybe 8 or 12 years down the line, effectively helping to save some of the arabs?
Obviously I'm just talking about how muslims themselves are treated in western countries - not what is going on in the middle east itself. It seems like the feedback loop of "[bomb muslim counties] --> [create refugees] --> [perform terror attacks] --> [rouse islamophobia and desire for revenge] --> [bomb muslim countries]" may be broken, depending on how Trump's foregin policy plays out, and if the domestic pro-islam progressive forces can help put the brakes on step 4. Just some thoughts I had.
One theory I had was that, perhaps the "tolerance" of islam was supposed to be official protocol for the next few years or so, in order to build further public fear of radical islamic terror, and cement the notion that the state was not going to proect them sufficiently from it? If this gaslighting of the common american people went on further with more false flag attacks framing muslims, but then simultaneously welcoming more refugees into the country, perhaps the anti-muslim sentiments would have grown to be even more feverish than they currently are? Perhaps this build-up was mean to be exploited in order to create even more public wishes to crack down on them when an out-and-out fascist leader did get into power. What I mean is that, maybe Trump and his islamophobic rhetoric - in a way - sort of "set off the bomb" before the rest of the charges were in place, so to speak? So the left is more able to effectively mobilize against islamophobia now than it would have been maybe 8 or 12 years down the line, effectively helping to save some of the arabs?
Obviously I'm just talking about how muslims themselves are treated in western countries - not what is going on in the middle east itself. It seems like the feedback loop of "[bomb muslim counties] --> [create refugees] --> [perform terror attacks] --> [rouse islamophobia and desire for revenge] --> [bomb muslim countries]" may be broken, depending on how Trump's foregin policy plays out, and if the domestic pro-islam progressive forces can help put the brakes on step 4. Just some thoughts I had.
whitecoast said:
Boy is that not the truth.
(Rudy, Rudy, Rudy, Rudy)
https://youtu.be/B3ixJIuBzWg
https://youtu.be/jfoDAVDqd4Q
Rudy Giuliani San Bernadino Memorial Service FULL Speech
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTlrz9iXHFk
'Craft Intl mercenaries carried out San Bernardino shooting'
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/12/08/440834/Craft-International-mercenaries-San-Bernardino-shooting
Mercenaries from the Craft International, a tactical training company for the US military, carried out last week’s false flag operation in San Bernardino, California, according to Steven D Kelley, a former NSA/CIA contractor.
piliangie said:
I think you are becoming a little bit hysterical about all of this. Take a few deep breaths and calm down.
Trump clearly has some dead-wrong ideas that people get when they don't do deep research. His approach to the Palestine/Israel problem, for example, is far more concerning than his grandiose claims that he will build a wall between the US and Mexico.
It seems to me that most of Mexico's problems are due to the wealthy elite there sending all of Mexico's products to the US to make money, and the Mexicans get nothing. That's pretty similar to what happened in the US: jobs were outsourced to the far east because companies didn't want to pay US level wages or taxes. Both countries were royally screwed by their wealthy elite.
Now, Trump comes along and all he can see is that a lot of Mexicans came to US for jobs because there were none in Mexico. They came because they were willing to work for less than "spoiled Americans" - the same Americans who were now without work because companies had transferred operations elsewhere.
So, Trump thinks that he can do a simple fix: bring the companies and jobs back, and send the Mexicans home and close the door. He hasn't looked deeply enough into the problem to figure out that it is really a question of elite-to-elite deals.
Meanwhile, running in the background is the fact that a lot of Mexicans who could not get work otherwise, went into the drug trade and, of course, they were encouraged by deals with their own elites in cahoots with CIA because they were all making piles of money. Trump only sees the damage this does on the surface: Mexicans sell drugs to America. So, he wants to fix it. It all comes together in his mind with 'build a wall'.
I seriously doubt that there are any plans to invade down South. I've heard that the Bush family (and others) have large holdings in Paraguay, but have never seen the evidence. If they do, it is probably financial investment, or even having a place to retreat to if things go pear-shaped on them. It's not because the Yankees plan to invade like Hitler did to Poland and Austria. You have to remember that a large chunk of Poland belonged to Germany at one point, and they were just taking back what they felt was theirs by precedent. Another large chunk of Poland formerly belonged to Austria, and Austria was a "Germanic" country. Nothing about that situation maps onto the current one.
As for Trump being a Hitler - there are certainly a number of markers present, but the backgrounds and personalities are quite different. If the Nazi situation develops - and it looks like there is a good chance it will - it will be mainly due to the leftist opposition forcing the situation. After all, if they keep up what they are doing against a single-minded Trump who thinks he is doing what is right, what options does he have? Martial Law. And certainly, there are some Nazi types in his advisors and a bunch of them running the government bureaucracy. A good understanding of what happened in Germany is useful. You might want to read my article from back when: https://www.sott.net/article/152271-Chaos-and-Consent-Working-Towards-the-Fuhrer
In that article I wrote:
That was certainly the case with the neo-liberals leading on to Hillary.
But Trump beat Hillary. So, how are the PTB going to work Trump - a kind of simple guy - to get the same result?
Think about it.
Added: see also: https://www.facinghistory.org/holocaust-and-human-behavior/chapter-5/working-toward-fuhrer
So, what would you think of this? Because, from one part, I usually do not trust what government denies or says, and US remain silent ... one wonders ... and the other part thinks that someone through AP and/or via the MSM want to create more circus? or focus in something else? ... https://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/230039-trump-mexico-hacerse-cargo-bad-hombres ---spanish
...just read this article -finding more about this issue-, and is from June 2016 _http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/06/13/president-trump-will-invade-and-attack-mexico/ ... the author has good points, I think.
_http://time.com/4657474/donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-mexico-bad-hombres/?xid=homepage said:
...just read this article -finding more about this issue-, and is from June 2016 _http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/06/13/president-trump-will-invade-and-attack-mexico/ ... the author has good points, I think.
FTR #944 Fireside Rant: WTF Is Going On? The Caligulization of America and the End of the American Century
_http://emory.kfjc.org/archive/ftr/900_999/f-944.mp3 Podcast
Trump kept a copy of this by his bedside.
Dave Emory
Snip:
_http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/ftr-944-fireside-rant-wtf-is-going-on-the-caligulization-of-america-and-the-end-of-the-american-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SpitfireList+%28Dave+Emory+-+Spitfirelist.com%29
Next Article
_http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58999
_http://emory.kfjc.org/archive/ftr/900_999/f-944.mp3 Podcast
Trump kept a copy of this by his bedside.
Dave Emory
Snip:
_http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/ftr-944-fireside-rant-wtf-is-going-on-the-caligulization-of-america-and-the-end-of-the-american-century/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+SpitfireList+%28Dave+Emory+-+Spitfirelist.com%29
Next Article
_http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58999
Laura said:
Very interesting. I think the idea of people within the bureaucracy carrying out pro-actively what they perceive as the "will of the Führer" is very important, also in the context of Trump.
I once took an interdisciplinary course at university with a law professor and a historian where we looked into the development of the legal system and legal thought under the Nazis in some detail. It seems that many aspiring people within the system (who were there already during the Weimar republic) got quite a kick out of it: they could introduce new legal arguments and so on, while strictly working within the existing legal system. It was quite an interesting challenge to them it seems, and they could always work within the mindset of "anticipating the Führer's will". Something to think about in terms of Trump.
Another case in point is post-war Germany: both in West and East Germany, lots of bureaucrats (and others) transitioned from being Nazis to zealous democrats or communists respectively. Knowing what we know about authoritarian followers, this makes sense - it's not about ideologies, these come and go, it's about what people perceive to be the "consensus". That explains why they can easily "download" a new ideology and just change their justifications, while continuing to do what they have always done.
So, if burocrats, people in the media and others in the US start thinking that the "wind has changed" in the sense that "Foreigners are bad people", "the liberals are traitors" etc., they might start anticipating the will of those in power and actually get a kick out of redefining the game, while justifying it with "just sticking to the constitution", US legal traditions, Christian roots etc. Dangerous!
luc said:
Yup. And no telling which countries will be targeted, either. And the end result will be, I think, a more or less global rejection of USA, possibly even some destruction there though that will likely be mostly due to revolutionary and counter-revolutionary actions. In other words, it will eat itself up.
With Hillary, the situation would have been way worse for other countries - while still pretending friendship, paying out big bux to buy the support of others, a war with Russia and China would probably be in the offing with mass destruction all over the planet.
The way I'm seeing it is that Trump is bringing all the chickens home to roost. Cs said that suffering would have to get a lot worse for people to wake up so, in a sense, we should be glad that he's accelerating things within the US. As far as I can see, with the US being the "5D city on a hill" nobody who has a choice would want to emigrate there. Mexicans and other immigrants don't realize that Trump is doing them a favor by sending them home where they really will be safer in the long run. Or so it seems to me.