Trump orders attack on Syria, asks for other countries to join him.

The rhetoric coming out of the Trump admin is not looking good. (I almost typed "Bush admin" there by mistake! :O)

_http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/09/middleeast/syria-missile-strike-chemical-attack-aftermath/

US envoy Nikki Haley says Syria regime change is 'inevitable'

By Angela Dewan, CNN

Updated 1104 GMT (1904 HKT) April 9, 2017

Watch Jake Tapper's full interview with Nikki Haley on CNN's "State of the Union" at 2:00 p.m. CET.

(CNN)The US ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, has told CNN that removing Syrian President Bashar al-Assad from power is a priority, cementing an extraordinary U-turn in the Trump administration's stance on the embattled leader.

Two days after the US launched military strikes on a Syrian airbase in response to a chemical weapons attack widely blamed on the Assad regime, Haley said the departure of Assad was inevitable.

Before Tuesday's attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun, which killed 89 people, Haley had said toppling Assad was not a priority. President Donald Trump, before his election, described fighting ISIS and seeking Assad's removal at the same time as "idiocy."

But after seeing images of the horrific aftermath of the chemical attack, US President Donald Trump ordered a bombardment of the Shayrat airbase in western Syria, which the US believes was the launchpad for the strike. It was the first time that the US had struck the Syrian regime since the start of the six-year civil war

In her interview with CNN's "State of the Union," Haley said removing Assad from power was one of a number of priorities for the US.

"Getting Assad out is not the only priority. So what we're trying to do is obviously defeat ISIS. Secondly, we don't see a peaceful Syria with Assad in there. Thirdly, get the Iranian influence out. And then finally move towards a political solution, because at the end of the day this is a complicated situation, there are no easy answers and a political solution is going to have to happen," she said in the interview with anchor Jake Tapper, to air on Sunday.

[...]
 
Aeneas said:
Egypt has stood out as not joining the Gulf states in supporting the US strikes. This, I found interesting as it confirms the trend by Egypt away from the orbit of the US and closer to orbit of Russia.

So Egypt does not support the US strikes in Syria and today ISIS apparently, sends two suicide bombers in two different cities in Egypt to cause a bloodbath:


Up to 11 people have been killed and 40 injured following a suicide bomb attack at a Coptic Christian Cathedral in Alexandria, according to Egypt’s Health Ministry as cited by state media.

This follows another suicide bomb attack in Tanta, Egypt earlier Sunday morning. Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) have claimed responsibility for both bomb attacks in Egypt.[...]

The attack earlier this morning at St. George’s Coptic church in Tanta, approximately 130 km (80 miles) southeast of Alexandria killed at least 21 people and injured a further 38.

More on RT.

It seems that Trump has not stop the sending of US government/secret services paychecks to the jihadi nut-jobs.
 
I think the way to get a read on this situation is to look closer at some of the smaller or apparently insignificant details and the context in which this event occurred. Also, I think such events are usually designed to serve multiple purposes, and there are other purposes that can be served from an opportunistic pov.

For example, Russia was apparently notified of the attack. This would, presumably, have allowed the Russians time to decide whether or not to act to prevent it. It seems they decided not to do so. Does that suggest Russian consent to the attack? Maybe as a way to allow Trump some relief from the accusations of being 'pro-Russian'. Then again, if Trump and Putin sort of 'agreed' on this, then that would tend to imply ties between the two! Although I think that angle is too nuanced for the Western press, they're just happy that Murika fired some of its "beautiful weapons" at a "bad guy" and restored some prestige.

Does Trump know the 'chem weapons' thing was a set up? Or does he really believe it was Assad? I think the former is more likely. In that case, the people who orchestrated the chemical attack may have done so for the specific purpose of not exactly forcing Trump's hand, but more like making him a tempting offer: 'run with the Assad used chemical weapons line and back the attack on the airfield to relieve pressure on you from your anti-Russian detractors in the USA and make you seem more like a real US president'. But in taking this action, Trump has left himself open to being under serious pressure to take more action in the event that some similar trumped-up charges are leveled at Assad, or even Russia. Note that in the aftermath of the 'pew! pew!' on the airfield, the Senate announced that they would be looking into whether or not Russia was involved in the chemical attack!

When you look at the last few years of the covert war between the US and Russia, the US warmongers seem able only to engage in fairly crass set ups that are relatively easily predictable (or manageable) by Russia, along with rather crass propaganda that is nevertheless emotionally charged and therefore convincing to the average person (see MH17 for example).

It seems that game theory is being employed here by both sides. with Russia coming out on top so far because it seems able to employ more complex 'algorithms' than the US. But maybe it's not so much a case of ability as it is a product of the positions from which each side started the 'game'. The US began from a position of apparently unrivaled power and influence, while Russia was relatively weak. The US' long history of using a big stick to intimidate others gave them good reason to assume they would be able to continue to do so and therefore they saw no need to budget for a competent challenger coming on the scene, at least not any time soon.

From the Russian perspective, aware of their weakness, they were naturally forced to get stronger, get smart, get creative, study their enemy in depth, identify weaknesses, study possible scenarios in a detailed way and formulate plans. When Russia was ready and announced itself as a challenger, at least in the Middle East, it not only came as a surprise to the US, but in the 18 months since then it seems Russia has done an excellent job of covering all the bases in terms of neutralizing all possible US responses. So for the last 18 months the US firsters have been made to look pretty impotent by Russia, and they are NOT happy about it. No wonder that the recent 'pew! pew!' Tomahawk attack on the Syrian airfield, while quite 'poor' by military ops standards (as the Russians said), was greeted by people like John McCain almost with tears of joy!
 
There is in this thread some mentions of the deep state.
Here after an interview with Mike Lofgren the author of the essay “Anatomy of the Deep State.” (Already mentionned by angelburst29)
You can have the trancript.

And some quotes and review from the book " The American Deep State: Wall Street, Big Oil, and the Attack on U.S. Democracy", by Peter Dale Scott:
"I am aware of the possibility of establishing a real tyranny in the United States. So we have to make sure that the National Security Agency, and all those who have these technologies, operate within a legal framework and under proper supervision, so that we never fall into this abyss. To sink there would be no return. "
- Senator Frank Church (1975)
This provocative book makes a compelling case for a hidden “deep state” that influences and often opposes official U.S. policies. Prominent political analyst Peter Dale Scott begins by tracing America’s increasing militarization, restrictions on constitutional rights, and income disparity since the Vietnam War. He argues that a significant role in this historic reversal was the intervention of a series of structural deep events, ranging from the assassination of President Kennedy to 9/11. He does not attempt to resolve the controversies surrounding these events, but he shows their significant points in common, ranging from overlapping personnel and modes of operation to shared sources of funding. Behind all of these commonalities is what Scott calls the deep state: a second order of government, behind the public or constitutional state, that has grown considerably stronger since World War II. He marshals convincing evidence that the deep state is partly institutionalized in non-accountable intelligence agencies like the CIA and NSA, but it also includes private corporations like Booz Allen Hamilton and SAIC, to which 70 percent of intelligence budgets are outsourced. Behind these public and private institutions is the traditional influence of Wall Street bankers and lawyers, allied with international oil companies beyond the reach of domestic law. With the importance of Gulf states like Saudi Arabia to oil markets, American defense companies, and Wall Street itself, this essential book shows that there is now a supranational deep state, sometimes demonstrably opposed to both White House policies and the American public interest
...of authoritarian and coercive shadow power as a prerequisite for social cohesion. This coercive power advocated by Huntington is therefore the antithesis of open and persuasive power. According to him, "power can remain strong only when it is kept in the shade; When exposed to daylight, it begins to evaporate.
"A level of government or super-control that is hardly perceptible,maintains whatever the result of the elections and which is likely to thwart social movements or radical changes. "
 
Windmill knight said:
...
In her interview with CNN's "State of the Union," Haley said removing Assad from power was one of a number of priorities for the US.

"Getting Assad out is not the only priority. So what we're trying to do is obviously defeat ISIS. Secondly, we don't see a peaceful Syria with Assad in there. Thirdly, get the Iranian influence out. And then finally move towards a political solution[/b], because at the end of the day this is a complicated situation, there are no easy answers and a political solution is going to have to happen," she said in the interview with anchor Jake Tapper, to air on Sunday.
[...]
What about getting the American influence out. The hubris and presumptuousness of the US is sickening.


Alana said:
...
So Egypt does not support the US strikes in Syria and today ISIS apparently, sends two suicide bombers in two different cities in Egypt to cause a bloodbath:
So monotonously predictable. It just seems that it doesn't matter how much this pattern becomes obvious, because for reasons I can't quite understand, as long as our "officials" act like the "official narrative in the media" is true, then for all practical purposes, that is "reality"--even if everyone knows it's a lie.

zak said:
...
And some quotes and review from the book " The American Deep State: Wall Street, Big Oil, and the Attack on U.S. Democracy", by Peter Dale Scott:
"I am aware of the possibility of establishing a real tyranny in the United States. So we have to make sure that the National Security Agency, and all those who have these technologies, operate within a legal framework and under proper supervision, so that we never fall into this abyss. To sink there would be no return. "
- Senator Frank Church (1975)
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise* of fighting a foreign enemy."
- James Madison, American statesman and Founding Father who served as the fourth President of the United States from 1809 to 1817

*guise: an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.
 
Ellipse said:
My question is, if it's true, "what channel" Trump use to coordinate with Russia?

Well, I am no expert in this, but my guess is that Trump currently has no means of communication with Russia without the 'deep state' getting wind of it. If, and that's a big if, he somehow coordinated the attacks with Putin (besides the official forewarning) in a strategic way, it probably was more based on a 'silent understanding'. That's just speculation of course, fwiw.
 
Pashalis said:
Press TV with a special guest from SOTT :) :thup:

Well done Joe! I think you made a great point about how important it is for the US military to maintain a facade of invincibility. I hope you're right and this was a prestige based show of force!
 
Joe said:
But in taking this action, Trump has left himself open to being under serious pressure to take more action in the event that some similar trumped-up charges are leveled at Assad, or even Russia. Note that in the aftermath of the 'pew! pew!' on the airfield, the Senate announced that they would be looking into whether or not Russia was involved in the chemical attack!

Exactly. But what would be the best move for Trump? In one hand you're destitute or killed in the other hand you take more pressure. Let's hope he always want to resist.

luc said:
Ellipse said:
My question is, if it's true, "what channel" Trump use to coordinate with Russia?

Well, I am no expert in this, but my guess is that Trump currently has no means of communication with Russia without the 'deep state' getting wind of it. If, and that's a big if, he somehow coordinated the attacks with Putin (besides the official forewarning) in a strategic way, it probably was more based on a 'silent understanding'. That's just speculation of course, fwiw.

If it's the case we need to be ready for even more chills. :/
 
luc said:
Ellipse said:
My question is, if it's true, "what channel" Trump use to coordinate with Russia?

Well, I am no expert in this, but my guess is that Trump currently has no means of communication with Russia without the 'deep state' getting wind of it. If, and that's a big if, he somehow coordinated the attacks with Putin (besides the official forewarning) in a strategic way, it probably was more based on a 'silent understanding'. That's just speculation of course, fwiw.

Both from Sputniknews:

US Had Not Warned Russia Prior to Attack on Syria Through Political Channels
White House spokesman Sean Spicer said that the United States did not warn Russia prior to launching its missile strike on the base of the Syrian Air Force, and instead informed Moscow only through military channels.
Sean Spicer said:
“When it came to this strike, our military team was engaged in a regular course of action of deconflicting, because we [the United States and Russia] are both operating in Syria, so we have made sure we deconflicted our military responsibilities, but there was no contact with Moscow in terms of political leadership there prior to the strike,” Spicer told the Fox News broadcaster.

Twitter Users Slam MSM Hack Over Claim Putin & Trump Colluded in Syria Strikes
Just as Russian-US relations under President Trump hit a new low after Thursday's cruise missile strike on a Syrian air base, the mainstream media rolled out a new theory worthy of any tinfoil-hat wearing nut: that the Kremlin and the White House deviously colluded in the attack for political gain. Social media users responded to the claim.
 
bjorn said:
Joe said:
bjorn said:
Yeah, that's the problem here. They US can literally launch hundreds of those subsonic missiles. That will simply overwhelm Russian air defences.

Even for the S-400 system, hundreds of cruise missiles might not be a problem

"One system comprising up to 8 divisions (battalions) can control up to 72 launchers, with a maximum of 384 missiles"

Well, in that case. Let them try :cool: It's a relief to hear that.

I once had something in mind to write about how the Israeli Iron Doom system is a complete farce by making comparison video's about showing how Russian air defence systems intercept missiles. And how the Israeli Iron Doom just simply doesn't. Isreal just shoot missiles in the sky that randomly explode up air to give the impression that they are under fire.

Israel has claimed that they have been under fire by hundreds if not thousands of missiles. When asked about the damage, they simply tell that 99% get's intercepted hence no damage. They never share radar data about those interceptions either. Because it's a lie.


I searched for video's that showed visible interceptions to point out the difference but I couldn't find that many, that's mainly because interceptions mostly happen out of visible range. But I found a small amount that did show a visible interception. And ofcourse those were all Russian.

Like this one (starts from 2:20 min)


Another article from Sputnik today discusses the complex and multi-layered nature of modern Russian SAM air defense systems. Its not just the S-X00 systems that are important, there are also short-medium range systems that need to be deployed for maximum protection:

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201704091052462296-russian-syria-air-defense-upgrade/ said:
Without Pantsir, Buk and Tor, S-400s Alone Not Enough to Cover Syria's Skies
In the aftermath of Thursday's Tomahawk cruise missile attack on the Ash Sha'irat airbase in Homs, Syria, Moscow vowed to strengthen its air defense umbrella over the country. Experts have already explained which systems need to be deployed to ensure Syria's safety against future US attacks.
Russian experts, meanwhile, have also explained that Russia's own air defense systems deployed in the country are marked for the pinpoint defense of Russian military sites and hardware in the country. Furthermore, they've pointed out that until Thursday's incident, the Russian systems had operated in accordance with Moscow's memorandum with Washington on avoiding incidents over Syria's skies. This presumably meant that the air defenses wouldn't target presumed 'friendly' US objects. On Friday, Moscow suspended the agreement.
Moscow's decision to strengthen Syria's air defenses is long overdue, says Vladimir Karjakin, a retired Air Force colonel and professor at the Defense Ministry's Military University in Moscow.

"In order to create an air defense system which can defend against any air attack, it's not enough to use the S-300 and S-400 long-range antiaircraft missile systems," he explained. "It's necessary to understand that the supply of these systems to Syria was, first and foremost, a military-diplomatic move. By doing so, we demonstrated, first and foremost to Turkey, that the Russian Federation is capable of introducing a no-fly zone over Syrian territory, thus insisting that the Turkish Air Force should proceed as carefully as possible."

"All of this is well and good, but for the genuine defense of objects (both civilian and military) from the air, completely different means are needed," the officer stressed. "Means such as the Buk medium-range air defense system, the short range Tor and Kub, and even portable systems such as the Verba and the Igla."

"Furthermore, I believe that Syrian air bases and garrisons must be equipped with the Pantsir-S self-propelled anti-aircraft missile and gun systems on a priority basis," Karjakin added.

"This system can detect and destroy any aircraft, helicopter, guided aerial bomb or enemy ballistic missile in a matter of seconds. In addition, the Pantsir-S1…is also designed to destroy ground targets, making it truly universal. The system combines anti-aircraft missiles and cannons, and there is no analogue…in the world today."

"If the Syrians had had the Pantsir-S, the outrage of the [US] cruise missile attack on the Ash Sha'irat airbase would not have happened," the officer noted.

He also touches on the problem of massive strikes:
"By the way, another important lesson from this attack was that there need to be a lot of air defense systems at Syria's [military] installations. Otherwise, in the event of a massed strike, the technical capabilities of the air defense system will not allow for the processing of all targets."
 
Seamas said:
luc said:
Ellipse said:
My question is, if it's true, "what channel" Trump use to coordinate with Russia?

Well, I am no expert in this, but my guess is that Trump currently has no means of communication with Russia without the 'deep state' getting wind of it. If, and that's a big if, he somehow coordinated the attacks with Putin (besides the official forewarning) in a strategic way, it probably was more based on a 'silent understanding'. That's just speculation of course, fwiw.

Both from Sputniknews:

US Had Not Warned Russia Prior to Attack on Syria Through Political Channels
White House spokesman Sean Spicer said that the United States did not warn Russia prior to launching its missile strike on the base of the Syrian Air Force, and instead informed Moscow only through military channels.
Sean Spicer said:
“When it came to this strike, our military team was engaged in a regular course of action of deconflicting, because we [the United States and Russia] are both operating in Syria, so we have made sure we deconflicted our military responsibilities, but there was no contact with Moscow in terms of political leadership there prior to the strike,” Spicer told the Fox News broadcaster.

Twitter Users Slam MSM Hack Over Claim Putin & Trump Colluded in Syria Strikes
Just as Russian-US relations under President Trump hit a new low after Thursday's cruise missile strike on a Syrian air base, the mainstream media rolled out a new theory worthy of any tinfoil-hat wearing nut: that the Kremlin and the White House deviously colluded in the attack for political gain. Social media users responded to the claim.

Thanks Seamas. I hope it show that the military on the US side is not necessary a compact group of war hungry persons. Let's hope there's some balance and that Trump take the decision knowing their will be this communication at the military level before the strike.
 
happyliza said:
Tom Duggan is a FB friend who lives in Damascus with his Syrian wife. We were chatting in February about the situation.

Here Tom explains what actually happened - and IS happening on a regular basis. Please share. Stay safe Tom!

125,966 Views
Hanin Elias at Damascus Kassa.
5 April at 17:29 · Damascus, Syria ·

My Interview with British Journalist Tom Duggan in Damascus Kasaa at the French Hospital
tells us about the chemical attacks accusations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjOSZ6QgGgY&feature=youtu.be

The video has only had 49k shares. So please help distribute! :cool2:

Thanks for the video happyliza, I shared it on twitter. The bits where he describes the effects of chlorine gas on children (4:55) and where she asks him what the Syrian people want (5:44) are really heartbreaking:

 
Seamas said:
happyliza said:
Tom Duggan is a FB friend who lives in Damascus with his Syrian wife. We were chatting in February about the situation.

Here Tom explains what actually happened - and IS happening on a regular basis. Please share. Stay safe Tom!

125,966 Views
Hanin Elias at Damascus Kassa.
5 April at 17:29 · Damascus, Syria ·

My Interview with British Journalist Tom Duggan in Damascus Kasaa at the French Hospital
tells us about the chemical attacks accusations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjOSZ6QgGgY&feature=youtu.be

The video has only had 49k shares. So please help distribute! :cool2:

Thanks for the video happyliza, I shared it on twitter. The bits where he describes the effects of chlorine gas on children (4:55) and where she asks him what the Syrian people want (5:44) are really heartbreaking:


That was an excellent account by Tom Duggan in Damascus. Thanks very much for sharing!
 
So much is happening, thanks to all for the input here. One question came to mind while reading all the comments on the Syrian air base strike. With the warning given, and the departure of Russian personnel etc. why was anyone left on that base to be killed? One report said, only one hour notice was given before the strike.

Watching various commentators last night on Trumps strike, one possibility was given that I haven't seen mentioned here. Xi Jinping was a guest of Trumps when the strike occurred and this was a warning to him and North Korea. So, many ways for Trump to benefit from this strike it seems. I think he knew, the claims where false about the chemical attack by Assad,(seems obvious) but jumped to the opportunity. Once again, we wait and see how thing unfold.
 
Well if I summarize the events, the Syrian Air Force took out a weapons storage facility that was also a chemical weapons factory. This released the gas and subsequently killed people living close by. The Syrians may not have known that chemical weapons were there, or maybe were tricked into attacking that location. In the event of scenario 1, this would be a big problem for the PTB. As they could be exposed for being part of the whole situation. That being, that rag tag terrorist would not be able to operate a chemical weapons factory in Syria without outside help. In this case they would be caught somewhat off-guard and would have to go into damage control mode almost instantly. Their number one priority would be to not have any investigation into the whole event, as this could expose things that they would not want to have exposed, Hence the current narrative released very quickly with them giving no doubt as to the source being Assad. The rather pathetic Tomahawk missile response was needed to put a cap on it, and seal the narrative of Assad did it. But this response has allowed Russia to break from military cooperation with the US in Syria, and also to vow to beef up their defenses.

As to the other scenario, and tricking the Syrians to unknowingly bomb a chemical weapons factory, this still leaves the problems of the first scenario. So it seems to me that if they, (PTB) are using Game Theory here, they are doing a pretty bad job of it. Or maybe they are just running out of things they can do. And are kind of stabbing around in the dark.
 
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