Turkey shot down Russian bomber over Syria

[bjorb]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

By today Loreta I can only conclude the same. I have been trying to follow the geopolitical situation close up but only know do I understand were the C’s and Laura are coming from.

Nothing is going to chance and Russia alone will not be able to stop the madness that awaits us. The camps are coming, Muslims and everyone who resists are going to meet a terrible fate and if the PTB are going to have there way tenths of millions if not hundred of millions will fall into their cross-hair. To be round up and exterminated immediately.

The Third Reich has nothing on what is going to come and this time Russia really will stand alone.

My grandpa fought against this evil, was captured, tortured and only survived by sheer luck. I am glad he died recently because for him to witness the same evil arise in a globally unstoppable mass-murdering machine that the Nazi’s couldn’t even imagine in their wildest dream would be to much to bare.

Only the ‘cosmos’ can chance the outcome. Rather today than tomorrow.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

I'm wondering if the Turks are lying about the jet's flight path, or if they are claiming their 'borders' encompass land that is actually Syria. Can someone overlay the two images in this article to see (i.e. the Turkish-provided map and the Russian one shown in the YT vid)?

http://fortruss.blogspot.fr/2015/11/who-violated-whos-airspace-you-decide.html

The coastlines look different in each one, so they may not be using the same mapping methods, but maybe something can be gleaned.

I grabbed the images, scaled them until the coast line matched and then overlayed them.

*edit* given the difference between the radar data/borders, I don't know how accurate it is.....but the coastlines match

Thanks for composing the overlay image. But it seems the two paths of the jets (red, blue) do not match at all... Maybe someone used flight paths of a previous time to claim whatever was convenient?

Thanks, RedFox! Yeah, it looks like the maps are a good match, but the farther east it goes, the less the borders match. Even then, it's very close and shows that the flight paths are NOT the same. The Turkish data shows a more East-West trajectory, while the Russian shows a curve around the border.

 

[Sol Logos]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

I reckon when it comes down to it psychopaths rely on fear, not that they are afraid but they imagine they can have their boot on the face all those they seek to control for time immemorial. Their Achilles's heel is believing that they can keep us there with their boot on our faces. It's wishful thinking as the past has shown this isn't the case and their reign isnt subject to change but it is. Yes its also insane, as they would prefer to have the whole world burning in flames (which includes them) than to ever have to lift up their boot.

It seems to me they can't conceive of fearless foresight, they only know how to provoke fear and indecisive sudden reactions. Seems to be the only response they know but when we're not responding in step, what power do they really hold? It's wishful thinking as the Cs have said and it predicts their slipping hold on the world as far as I can tell for now.

Given the Cs speak from outside our "physical" world and don't rush to put words in our mouths but wait for us to learn for ourselves, kind of indicates that even "death" isn't a threat worthy of provoking that fear. For me its seems that without such fear, foresight is more likely and from there what do psychopaths have left in their arsenal?

Seems to me why they are at a loss with Putin.

This may have even been Caesar who said this, I don't know but by fearlessly seeking truth and plainly stating the facts as they are, its a sword that psychopaths can't sheild themselves from for too long. I always took this passage to mean that sword is truth.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword [truth]. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Truth might not make peace, but its the foundation of change and perhaps that's why the psychopaths are ramping up and doing the only thing they know how to do.

 

[luke wilson]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Regarding any future world wars... Who will be fighting them really? Beyond the military, no civilian will be inclined to sign up for what is essentially death. What? Give up the lazy life chasing money for being shot at? The govs of the world will have a hard time rallying their masses. They can rally them to support their respective militaries but rally them to join en masse to fight some shadow enemies who don't exist... Good luck with that! Do they not know how exceptionally lazy the average person is!

 

[Seaniebawn]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Regarding any future world wars... Who will be fighting them really? Beyond the military, no civilian will be inclined to sign up for what is essentially death. What? Give up the lazy life chasing money for being shot at? The govs of the world will have a hard time rallying their masses. They can rally them to support their respective militaries but rally them to join en masse to fight some shadow enemies who don't exist... Good luck with that! Do they not know how exceptionally lazy the average person is!

True, but look at Ukraine and their Terror Operation in the east, populations have been forced before into war conscription etc, that doesn't mean they will be an effective fighting force, just more meat for the grinder.

 

[RedFox]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Regarding any future world wars... Who will be fighting them really? Beyond the military, no civilian will be inclined to sign up for what is essentially death. What? Give up the lazy life chasing money for being shot at? The govs of the world will have a hard time rallying their masses. They can rally them to support their respective militaries but rally them to join en masse to fight some shadow enemies who don't exist... Good luck with that! Do they not know how exceptionally lazy the average person is!

Well as we've seen in France, the dupes who 'joined ISIS' came from an area of poverty (or so it seems) - so as with all wars, if you can make people poor enough you can entice them to war if there are no others jobs (so no food).
If the only way to 'chase money' is 'go to war', what would the average person do?

 

[bjorb]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Regarding any future world wars... Who will be fighting them really? Beyond the military, no civilian will be inclined to sign up for what is essentially death. What? Give up the lazy life chasing money for being shot at? The govs of the world will have a hard time rallying their masses. They can rally them to support their respective militaries but rally them to join en masse to fight some shadow enemies who don't exist... Good luck with that! Do they not know how exceptionally lazy the average person is!

If the economy crashes short-term solution can be a war-economy. If they can get the population hateful enough to let them allow genocide inside their own borders. The mind-state of the population would be so depraved that war with whomever the PTB want to get rid of would be easy to sell. No more need for complicated proxy armies.

 

[luke wilson]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Regarding any future world wars... Who will be fighting them really? Beyond the military, no civilian will be inclined to sign up for what is essentially death. What? Give up the lazy life chasing money for being shot at? The govs of the world will have a hard time rallying their masses. They can rally them to support their respective militaries but rally them to join en masse to fight some shadow enemies who don't exist... Good luck with that! Do they not know how exceptionally lazy the average person is!

Well as we've seen in France, the dupes who 'joined ISIS' came from an area of poverty (or so it seems) - so as with all wars, if you can make people poor enough you can entice them to war if there are no others jobs (so no food).
If the only way to 'chase money' is 'go to war', what would the average person do?

Poor and uneducated is a dangerous combination. Hopefully there aren't enough of them around. They would be residing in the inner cities of western countries this type of person and they would have a bone to pick with society (which has essentially screwed them over).

 

[RedFox]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Regarding any future world wars... Who will be fighting them really? Beyond the military, no civilian will be inclined to sign up for what is essentially death. What? Give up the lazy life chasing money for being shot at? The govs of the world will have a hard time rallying their masses. They can rally them to support their respective militaries but rally them to join en masse to fight some shadow enemies who don't exist... Good luck with that! Do they not know how exceptionally lazy the average person is!

Well as we've seen in France, the dupes who 'joined ISIS' came from an area of poverty (or so it seems) - so as with all wars, if you can make people poor enough you can entice them to war if there are no others jobs (so no food).
If the only way to 'chase money' is 'go to war', what would the average person do?

Poor and uneducated is a dangerous combination. Hopefully there aren't enough of them around. They would be residing in the inner cities of western countries this type of person and they would have a bone to pick with society (which has essentially screwed them over).

Watching the way the UK governments budget is moving further away from any kind of social/societal support and all going towards war is laying the ground work for this.
Austerity, poverty, war.

Just listened Lavrov's press conference, and there where some real gems in it! It's worth watching.
https://www.rt.com/news/323404-lavrov-syria-s24-turkey/

The downing of a Russian warplane in Syria by Turkey appears to be a pre-planned provocation, the Russian Foreign Minister said. Ankara failed to communicate with Russia over the incident, he added.

“We have serious doubts that this act was unintentional. It looks very much like a preplanned provocation,” Lavrov said, citing Turkey’s failure to maintain proper communication with Russia, the abundance of footage of the incident and other evidence.

Earlier in the day, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu slammed Russia for "attacks on Turkmen" in Syria, which according to Ankara preceded the incident with the downed Su-24.

http://<iframe width="690" height="...1U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The Russian FM said the region where the incident happened is not just home to Turkmen people. There are also hundreds of foreign fighters affiliated with known terrorist groups and elements of their infrastructure such as weapons depots and command points there, he said.

“I asked [Turkish FM Çavuşoğlu] whether Turkey’s close attention to this region, including the calls to create a buffer zone there, was motivated by a desire to protect this infrastructure from destruction. I didn’t receive any reply to this question,” Lavrov said.

He added the downing of the Russian warplane occurred shortly after a series of airstrikes on terrorist oil convoys and facilities by the Russian Air Force. The incident “sheds new light” on the issue, according to the Russian foreign minister.

The Russian diplomat criticized NATO for failing to express condolences to Russia over the loss of its troops lives.

“Very strange statements were voiced after a NATO meeting called by the Turks, which didn’t express any regret or condolences and in effect were aimed at covering up what the Turkish Air Force did yesterday,” Lavrov said. “A similar reaction came from the European Union.”

Lavrov reiterated the statements of the Russian Defense Ministry, which denied Ankara’s allegations that the Russian warplane had violated Turkish airspace.

He added that even if Turkey’s words were taken on face value, its actions contradict its own position expressed in 2012, after Syria took down a Turkish military plane. At the time, then-Prime Minister Erdogan told the Turkish parliament that a short incursion into another nation’s airspace cannot justify an attack on it.

Russia’s relations with Syria will change after the attack on the Russian plane, Lavrov said, adding that Turkey, which is now calling for dialogue, should have done more to communicate with Russia prior to and right after the incident.

Moscow will measure its response to limit the harm done to Turkish and Russian businessmen, who had nothing to do with the incident, and would decide on a proper action, Lavrov said.

“We cannot fail to react to what had happened. Not because we must retaliate. It’s just that there are too many issues in the Turkish territory that pose a direct terrorist threat to our citizens. And not only ours,” he said.

 

[luke wilson]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

The UK gov has shot itself in the foot big-time if they intend on reenacting a ww2 sort of mass mobilization. The average British person will simply not take to being told what to do. Modern society has made people demanding and self centered. In Ukraine, the mass mobilization has failed.

Naturally you have the aggressive types, I believe most of these types are already in the army or criminals.

In todays multinational world, you just cant bring people together along national lines. Its a losing battle. The country is fast becoming an outdated idea. Its more an ideal than anything real. You realise how much of an ideal it is when you ask people to die for their country. They will simply go, 'screw the country, it's not worth my life.'

Russia is fighting paid for mercenaries, not even people with national ideologies, more like people motivated by money and maybe ideal fancy fairy images of war or maybe just seriously disturbed people who want an arena to act out their warped natures. All in all, they are in a minority. To bad they are being supported by one of the best funded organisations the world has ever seen (ptb).

 

[rylek]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Russia soldier dies in downed jet rescue operations
_http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2015/11/24/439009/Russia-Syria-Turkey-fighter-jet

At least some good news, RT reported that at least one of the pilots has been saved:

One of 2 Russian pilots shot down by Turkey rescued, back to airbase in Syria

The second Russian pilot, who ejected from the Su-24 bomber shot down by Turkey on Tuesday over Syria, is safe and sound and has been taken to the Russian airbase in Latakia, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said.

“The [rescue] operation is successfully over. The pilot has been delivered to our base. Safe and sound,” Shoigu said during a meeting of the Defense Committee, adding that the operation was performed by Russian and Syrian special forces.

Shoigu said the joint operation had taken about 12 hours and thanked all special forces’ personnel that took part in the operation to rescue the pilot.
...

_www.rt.com/news/323377-russian-pilot-saved-syria/

 

[Mr.Cyan]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

The US via its puppet Turkey most likely would like the drums of war to be sounded and the breaking of alliances. But I don't think Putin will do that. There are so many other ways to make Erdogan and his masters suffer that will hurt much more. One would be to make sure the NATO mercenary force, IS, is routed. Another is to keep building alliances including the weak links in Europe. Yet another is jam electronics of NATO planes inside Syrian airspace.

The best move is the one that nobody anticipated, which doesn't hurt Russia itself either.

Yeah, had similar thoughts too. Russia is definitely going to react in a way that nobody anticipates, and it will be a dish served cold to the Empire.

 

[angelburst29]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

This article was posted last Saturday, Nov. 21, before Turkey/Erdogan shot down the Russian Military plane. Erdogen and Obama are trying to force an "no-fly zone" or "safe-zone" as a buffer to keep the Syrian border open for their own conquest. Erdogen would then try to provoke [NATO Article 5] as a mutual defense clause if its military were deployed to Syrian territory to set up a buffer zone, thus dragging NATO out in the open (Turkey/NATO/U.S.) against President Assad.

Turkey gets toehold on Syrian territory, finally
http://atimes.com/2015/11/turkey-gets-toehold-on-syrian-territory-finally/

The cloud of uncertainty is lifting about any new directions of Turkish policies on Syria following the parliamentary elections three weeks ago, which led to a great political consolidation by President Recep Erdogan. The policies will run in the old directions – regime change in Syria – as per Erdogan’s compass, which was set four years ago, but they will be vastly more visible in the ‘kinetics’.

That is the assessment one can make regarding the extraordinary demarche made by Turkey on Friday threatening Russia with “serious consequences” unless the latter ended this military operation (air strikes) “as early as possible” in northern Syria close to the Turkish border inhabited by the Turkmen tribes. Importantly, the Turkish threat was generic in character and not specific to any particular incident.

The Turkish diplomacy has a long tradition running through centuries and the timing of the demarche cannot be coincidental. Moscow reports had disclosed just the previous day, Thursday, that Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov will be traveling to Turkey on November 25 to discuss Syria.

An easy explanation is possible that Turkey decided to set the agenda for Lavrov’s talks on coming Wednesday that would devolve upon the parameters of the Russian operations in northern Syria that will not cross Turkey’s ‘red lines’. The exceptionally strong words used by Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu regarding the “bloody and barbarian” Syrian regime leaves very little to the imagination as to how Erdogan views the prospect of Assad’s future role. The last known Turkish stance is that Erdogan can tolerate Assad for a maximum period of six months during the transition.

However, it is wrong to conclude that the Turkish demarche is a mere tactical ploy. There is also the backdrop of the robust Turkish push for establishing a ‘no-fly zone’ in northern Syria to be kept in view. The demarche is linked to a live broadcast by Erdogan on Wednesday where he underscored that the creation of ‘no-fly’ and ‘safe’ zones is crucial to resolving the Syrian crisis.

The reports from Turkey through the one-week period had indicated that there is a joint Turkish-American military effort under way to fasten the border with Syria. Washington has been cagey about admitting the scale of involvement of the US military, but did not deny the Turkish media reports conclusively, either.

At any rate, the strategic ambiguity has just ended. The ‘breaking news’ from Ankara says Syrian opposition group Al-Sultan Murad Brigades “supported by Turkish and US war planes took control of two Turkmen towns in northern Syria” early Saturday. The reports say six Turkish F-16 aircraft, four US F-15 fighter jets and an American AC-130 took part in the operation along with three drones.

The Turkish security sources have been quoted as claiming that the joint Turkish-American move is the “first step for the creation of a Daesh-free zone in northern Syria (which) will further encourage the opposition forces to fight Daesh terror and help ensure Turkey’s border security”.

In strategic terms, a defining moment has been reached in the Syrian conflict – the “first step” in the creation of a swathe of land in northern Syria that will be out of bounds for military operations by Syrian government forces, Russian aircraft, or various militia groups such as Hezbollah who are fighting on the side of the Syrian regime.

But if the latest reports coming from Turkey are to be believed, Obama has given the green signal, finally, for direct American military participation in creating the ‘safe zone’ in northern Syria. Indeed, on the sidelines of the G20 summit in Turkey last week, Obama and Erdogan had the opportunity for holding in-depth discussions on Syria.


German General: NATO Article 5 won’t apply to Turkey’s buffer zone in Syria
http://atimes.com/2015/11/german-general-nato-article-5-wont-apply-to-turkeys-buffer-zone-in-syria/

In a Nov. 9 interview with CNN’s Christiane Amanpour, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said a ground forces operation in Syria could be possible to establish a buffer zone, but Turkey would not conduct it alone.

“[A] ground forces [campaign] is something which we have to talk [about] together and share…there’s a need of an integrated strategy, including an air campaign and ground troops.” Davutoglu added that Turkey alone cannot take on this burden.[1]

A Turkish security source said such an operation is unlikely without support from the UN Security Council or NATO Council.

In an interview on “Anne Will” ARD-TV broadcast, and stating almost the same words that Davutoglu said on CNN, General Kujat said “look, that’s what Turkey wants to provoke [NATO Article 5]. Therefore it keeps saying ‘we can’t do that alone, others have to participate.’”

In face of then ISIS massacre of Kobane Kurds, he continued bluntly: “Turkey basically wants to drag NATO into this situation because the actual goal of Turkey is to neutralize Assad…

On whether Turkey could invoke the mutual defense clause if its military were deployed to Syrian territory to set up a buffer zone, General Kujat said “if Turkish troops were to conduct operations in Syria without Syria’s permission and without a UN mandate and then be attacked this would never amount to a casus foederis (Article 5).”[5]

Thus, in the absence of a NATO Article 5, would Turkey be able to acquire a UNSC mandate for a buffer zone/no-fly zone similar to Libya?

That would likely depend on whether the buffer zone is really for humanitarian purposes.

Aleppo as Turkey’s 82nd province?

On a practical level, the buffer zone in Syria’s Aleppo region is an illusive haven. By definition a safe zone maintains neutrality in a military conflict, but the positioning of armed opposition groups in the safe zone will turn the area into a prime target.

Moreover, claims that on 10 August Turkish military forces entered the planned zone in Syria along with the Sultan Murat Brigade, which is composed of Turkmens, presents a worrying picture when taken in conjunction with pro-government media that proclaimed Aleppo as the 82nd province of Turkey.[6]

Safe haven for Eurasian militants?

According to the director of Syrian Observatory for Human Rights Rami Abdul Rahman, there are at least 2,000 fighters from Chechnya, Dagestan and other Caucasus regions operating with Al Nusra, and “they are concentrated in Idlib, Aleppo, and Latakia provinces”—where Erdogan has called for a buffer zone.[9]

Counterterrorism experts also reveal Chinese Turkistan Islamic Party, Uzbek Imam Bukhari Jamaat and Katibat Tawhid wal Jihad have planted themselves in Idlib. In Aleppo, a May 2015 USAID report on Central Asian fighters in Syria, referred to three Uzbek militant groups allied with Al Nusra as “Aleppo Uzbeks”: Imam al-Bukhoriy Brigade, Uzbek Brigade of Jabhat al Nusra, and Seyfullah Shishani Jamaat.[10]

Now, various intelligence sources estimate there are around 5,000 Uzbek, 2,000 Chechens and more than 1,000 Chinese militants in Syria.[11]

The Syrian army has been fighting these militants on behalf of Central Asian states, China and Russia—all members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO). However, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are now weakening regime forces with supplies of anti-tank TOW weapons.

As such, a UNSC resolution for a buffer zone is unlikely from China and Russia, as it would provide a base for their militants from which to launch attacks on the homeland.

Without NATO and UNSC backing, Turkey would stand alone against these Eurasian states’ interests to deny Syria as a haven for their militant groups. Any escalation of the conflict would only draw in these Eurasian powers to fortify ground forces that are helping them fight their militants—that means the Syrian Kurds and the Syrian army




List of border disputes with Turkey. Also, a serious photo of Lavrov.

Tension high on Turkey-Syria border since 2012
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tension-high-on-turkey-syria-border-since-2012--.aspx?pageID=517&nID=91590&NewsCatID=352

 

[Laura]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Well, it seems to me that Turkey has lost any possibility of a "no-fly zone" along the border with this recent stupid act. They may have thought they could make it stick, but I think Russia will force it the other way and be hitting that region even harder and just waiting for a chance to take out some of Turkey's hardware if they are stupid enough to get in firing range.

 

[RedFox]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Well, it seems to me that Turkey has lost any possibility of a "no-fly zone" along the border with this recent stupid act. They may have thought they could make it stick, but I think Russia will force it the other way and be hitting that region even harder and just waiting for a chance to take out some of Turkey's hardware if they are stupid enough to get in firing range.

Turkey got a "no-fly zone" of sorts...

http://southfront.org/vks-russian-federation-has-annihilated-the-militants-in-the-area-where-the-su-24-was-brought-down-erdogan-has-ordered-that-air-force-planes-of-turkey-be-grounded/

Russian Air Force Annihilated Militants In Area Where Su-24 Was Shot Down. Erdogan Ordered Turkish Air Force Planes Be Grounded

Information has come from Syrian sources that last night (24.11) the Russian Aerospace Defence Forces struck with massive attacks on the positions of militants (including Turkomans) in the region where the Russian Su-24 was brought down.

Originally appeared at Cont.ws, translated by Caraptho-Russian exclusively for SouthFront

The source reported that most likely nothing remains of the militants who shot down the Russian MI-8 .

No detailed information has arrived yet.

Meanwhile, there has appeared information that the Turks are not putting their fighters in the air after the majority of them were lit up by Russian radar (the S-300 and, according to early reports, possibly the S-400). After the statement of the Ministry of Defense of Russia, Turkey is afraid that their planes can be destroyed when approaching the border.

In this regard the Syrians reported that the Russia air-space forces can begin the full-scale destruction of camps in the border territory, and also annihilate the retreating militants and the fuel trucks which are moving towards Turkey.

Erdogan did not receive the hoped-for support from NATO. Erdogan has acknowledged that if the Russian plane even violated the border of Turkey, this was for only for 17 seconds, which means that the Turkish Air Force, on purely physical grounds, could not have reacted to it if the provocation was not prepared in advance. This figure of 17 seconds appears in NATO reports.

Members of NATO have been ambiguously treating Erdogan’s action. At present it is difficult to judge how the situation will develop. While it is obvious that Erdogan is attempting to back off, it is already too late, as Vladimir Putin gave to understand at a meeting with the king of Jordan.

Most likely Turkey did not expect such a severe reaction from Russia.