Turkey shot down Russian bomber over Syria

[striveforselflessness]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Can anyone make sense of this from Russian tv? Seems interesting.

http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/296953

Starting around 8:00

Журналисты "Рейтер" встретились с этими боевиками. Они представились сирийскими туркменами, их также называют туркоманами. Эта народность живет в Сирии, на границе с Турцией. Однако блоггеры смогли установить личность главаря банды. На фотографии он позирует с деталью парашюта. Его зовут Альпаслан Челик. По данным создателей сайта "Геополитик", он никакой не туркмен, а настоящий турок. Сын мэр города Кебан, который расположен вдали от сирийской границы. Несколько лет назад турецкие СМИ писали, что он под другой фамилией отправился на войну в Ирак. На имеющихся фотографиях Альпаслан Челик с таким же, как он, боевиками. Голубой флаг и жест, который показывают вооруженные люди - символы ультраправой турецкой молодежной организации Серые Волки. Движение придерживается фашисткой идеологии.

Apparently the shooter is not a "Syrian Turkmen," but the son of the mayor of Keban, a city in Turkey, and has ties to fascist ideology? The following source says neonazism, specifically: http://rusvesna.su/news/1448461289

 

[angelburst29]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

First the tourist trade, now the export trade.

Russian customs unofficially stops the flow of Turkish goods
http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/11/russian-customs-unofficially-stops-flow.html

Customs brokers are now disengaged in the clearance of goods from Turkey, told the radio station "Moscow speaking" about an unspoken ban on TCF imports of goods from that country.

One of the interlocutors of the radio station that is engaged in the import of products said, in an interview to "Moscow speaking", that today they did not accept the customs Declaration for the issue of Turkish goods of all categories and recommend the carriers to issue a re-export.

"Any kind of official paper was not shown to anybody, but the point is that for the goods today, the Turkish issue was impossible. The machine that is used is slowing down, and for those that already arrived, a re-export was issued. The goods that arrived by air, are also experiencing the same problem," the source added.

Source in the Federal customs service said to "Moscow speaking" that the customs officers gave the order of 100% screening of cargo from Turkey, and then to leave them at the warehouse of temporary storage. We are talking about all types of transportation.

On the forum devoted to the Russian customs, entrepreneurs discussed this issue. Some of them decided to suspend the transportation.

 

[munaychasumaq]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria


Turkey presidente obviosly is not using his brain.He is really upset becouse the rusians destroy his oil company!!! last week.what`s gonna happen next?hwo knows...but is really interesting watch the next Putin´s movment.Pay atention!!!

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

One thing I've noticed among most Turks, here at least, is that they're very nationalistic. Unfortunately those (not all of them thankfully!) who are open-minded otherwise (and can see through some of Western media manipulation, they realize US backs terrorists, they recognize false flag attacks etc.) can't see that Erdoğan's actions were crossing the line, they also don't seem to acknowledge that Turkey has been financing and supporting ISIS etc. Some of them have now turned against Russia and Putin. Everything Erdoğan/Turkey does and says is right, it seems. Sad to see!

 

[angelburst29]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

I'm wondering if the Turks are lying about the jet's flight path, or if they are claiming their 'borders' encompass land that is actually Syria. Can someone overlay the two images in this article to see (i.e. the Turkish-provided map and the Russian one shown in the YT vid)?

http://fortruss.blogspot.fr/2015/11/who-violated-whos-airspace-you-decide.html

The coastlines look different in each one, so they may not be using the same mapping methods, but maybe something can be gleaned.

Russia “Violated” Turkish Airspace Because Turkey “Moved” Its Border
http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-violated-turkish-airspace-because-turkey-moved-its-border/5480430

(This article originally published on October 7, 2015 is of utmost relevance in understanding the action taken by Turkey to down a Russian jet fighter over Syria airspace. (GR. Editor. M. Ch.)

One Russian plane may even indeed have slightly crossed the border [in October] while maneuvering. But the real reason why the U.S. military official and Turkey claim the above “violations” is because Turkey unilaterally “moved” the Turkish-Syrian border five miles south:


Turkey has maintained a buffer zone five miles inside Syria since June 2012, when a Syrian air defense missile shot down a Turkish fighter plane that had strayed into Syrian airspace. Under revised rules of engagement put in effect then, the Turkish air force would evaluate any target coming within five miles of the Turkish border as an enemy and act accordingly.


If Syrian rules of engagement would “move” its northern border up to the Black Sea would any plane in eastern Turkey be in violation of Syrian air space? No one would accept such nonsense and that is why no one should accept the U.S.-Turkish bullshit here. Russian planes should not respect the “new” Turkish defined border but only the legitimate one.

 

[canavare]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Can anyone make sense of this from Russian tv? Seems interesting.

http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/296953

Starting around 8:00

Журналисты "Рейтер" встретились с этими боевиками. Они представились сирийскими туркменами, их также называют туркоманами. Эта народность живет в Сирии, на границе с Турцией. Однако блоггеры смогли установить личность главаря банды. На фотографии он позирует с деталью парашюта. Его зовут Альпаслан Челик. По данным создателей сайта "Геополитик", он никакой не туркмен, а настоящий турок. Сын мэр города Кебан, который расположен вдали от сирийской границы. Несколько лет назад турецкие СМИ писали, что он под другой фамилией отправился на войну в Ирак. На имеющихся фотографиях Альпаслан Челик с таким же, как он, боевиками. Голубой флаг и жест, который показывают вооруженные люди - символы ультраправой турецкой молодежной организации Серые Волки. Движение придерживается фашисткой идеологии.

Apparently the shooter is not a "Syrian Turkmen," but the son of the mayor of Keban, a city in Turkey, and has ties to fascist ideology? The following source says neonazism, specifically: http://rusvesna.su/news/1448461289

It is true, there are a lot of turkish sources which confirms that Alparslan Çelik is a turkish Grey Wolf not a syrian Türkmen ! Please find below an english source about this:

The "Turkmen" commander Alparslan Çelik who shot at the Russian pilots is a Turkish citizen and Grey Wolves member. (self.syriancivilwar)
19 saat önce * fearnote gönderdi
Alparslan Çelik is a Turkish citizen and Grey Wolves member, a member of the MHP party. Born in Keban district, Elazığ province. He is the commander of the Turkmen unit circulating around the news where he said he and his men shot at the Russian pilots.
http://www.dha.com.tr/mhpli-eski-baskanin-oglu-savasmak-icin-iraka-gitti_715269.html
https://twitter.com/dijraberi/status/669272397556658176
https://twitter.com/dijraberi/status/669272773286608896
This is him talking about killing the pilots.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2015/11/24/turkmen-says-his-forces-killed-two-russi?videoId=366438602
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/nov/24/turkmen-rebels-say-they-shot-at-russian-pilots-ejected-from-downed-jet-video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xbxdAbUfNg
He pretty much proved he is a Grey Wolves member with these tweets. He makes the Grey Wolves hand signal and posts a picture of MHP Grey Wolves leader Alparslan Türkeş.
https://twitter.com/celikalparslan
https://twitter.com/CelikAlparslan/status/558103467383062529
https://twitter.com/CelikAlparslan/status/319534975353507840

_https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/3u6im0/the_turkmen_commander_alparslan_çelik_who_shot_at/

 

[curious_richard]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Consider the tiny size of the Turkish land the Su24 (supposedly) flew over, and for such a short time. The Turkish F16 was behind the Su24, and must have been over Syrian land for a much longer time.

 

[sbeaudry]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Anything on China's reaction? I find it strange that there doesn't seem to be any kind of official response yet.

 

[sbeaudry]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

From Global Times regarding Chinese response
---
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/954739.shtml

Putin faces tough choice after jet downed
Source:Global Times Published: 2015-11-25 0:53:01

A Russian Su-24 warplane was shot down Tuesday by Turkey near the Turkish-Syria border. Turkey claimed responsibility for the downing, saying it had violated Turkish airspace and the move was "within engagement rules." Russia insisted the plane was in Syrian airspace on a mission to strike the Islamic State. Russian President Vladimir Putin called the downing "a stab in the back delivered by accomplices of the terrorists."

This could be one of the most critical moments since the end of the Cold War. Its potential severity and associated risks could be a climax of geopolitical crises over the past decades. This is the first time that Russia has suffered such big losses.

Putin is faced with a choice that carries more risk than when he considered whether or not to annex Crimea. After calling Turkey's move "a stab in the back" for Russia, he apparently would be under more pressure to make Turkey pay a price for the downing and his personal prestige and Russia's tough image will be tested.

Moscow can retaliate against Turkey in many ways, but this means it will face a Cold War-style confrontation with NATO. Turkey didn't seem to rush to this decision. Russian warplanes have entered Turkish airspace at least twice before, which Moscow admitted and sent delegations to consult with the Turkish side. Ankara has repeated that it has the right to shoot down warplanes that infringe on Turkey's territory. Obviously it had the plan and had communicated with NATO.

Ankara must be well aware of what it means to shoot down a Russian warplane. Next it will be careful enough not to give Russia a chance to down one of its warplanes in retaliation. Moscow probably has to cross the Syrian-Turkish border to implement retaliation, which however risks escalating military confrontation.

If Russia strikes down a Turkish warplane in Turkish airspace, or strikes a Turkish air base, it will touch NATO's nerve. If NATO takes no action, its pledge to protect smaller alliance members will be discredited. However, if NATO adopts substantial action toward Russia, Europe will confront an unprecedented turbulent situation not seen since World War II.

We can sense the antagonism from the incident as NATO's eastward expansion triggered Russian countermeasures while Russia's strategic reaction prompts NATO to incrementally intend to constrain Russia. The US and Russia are clearly aware that their every reaction will send signals about the future order of Europe and the Middle East.

Currently the most burning issue in the world is to counter terrorism. But the overshadowing of geopolitics is too expansive to shun. It remains to be seen whether a rational manner can be adopted by Russia and NATO in the aftermath of the plane downing. We hope peace can prevail.

 

[striveforselflessness]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Please find below an english source about this:

Thank you, that is just what I was looking for. That did jump out at me, and I couldn't find anything in english (didn't understand much of it).

The extremist fascists always jump at the chance to join the destruction, in Ukraine and in Syria, they strike me as culture-perverting psychopaths who turn everyone around them into sociopaths, in Babiak's terms. It is obvious, but it must either be too much of a bitter truth for people to acknowledge (Erdogan must be 'on our side' after all, things like this would cause uncomfortable cognitive dissonance!), or if people acknowledge the existence of these types then they downplay their involvement, ignorant of the way psychopaths 'ponerize' a group.

 

[loreta]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Yesterday I read this news in Spanish, not found in English, at Sputnik, that the order to shot down the Russian fighter came, possibly, by a general from Spain. The article says that Madrid, where you have a NATO's military base, is controlling an area of 11 millions of kilometers from the Azores islands, Irak, Syria, Iran. They have 90 radars extremely efficient. The Spanish general said, in another interview some months ago, that if an airplane has to be shot down the decision comes from him. I don't know what to think about this news. What do you think? Is it possible? We know that the military base in Madrid is very important.

Here is the article in Spanish:

http://mundo.sputniknews.com/orientemedio/20151125/1054065885/espana-testigo-derribo-su24.html

 

[Siberia]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

Yesterday I read this news in Spanish, not found in English, at Sputnik, that the order to shot down the Russian fighter came, possibly, by a general from Spain. The article says that Madrid, where you have a NATO's military base, is controlling an area of 11 millions of kilometers from the Azores islands, Irak, Syria, Iran. They have 90 radars extremely efficient. The Spanish general said, in another interview some months ago, that if an airplane has to be shot down the decision comes from him. I don't know what to think about this news. What do you think? Is it possible? We know that the military base in Madrid is very important.

Here is the article in Spanish:

http://mundo.sputniknews.com/orientemedio/20151125/1054065885/espana-testigo-derribo-su24.html

There's also this Sott article according to which a Canadian news website reported the following:

Meanwhile, Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said that he himself had given the order to destroy the Russian jet.

"Despite all the warnings, we had had to destroy the aircraft. The Turkish Armed Forces carried out orders given by me personally," said Davutoglu, speaking to a meeting of his ruling Justice and Development Party, the Canadian ThinkPol news website reported.

 

[un chien anadolu]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

The Turkmen card which Turkish Government and Erdogan playing to disgrace Russia's operations in Syria and to legitimize downing of the Russian jet is a big lie :

- According to trustable, objective Turkish sources who know the area well and have almost daily contact to the people located there; in the mountainous region where Russia is bombing there are no Turkmen civilians left. Years ago, after the war in Syria started they either migrated to South of Syria or to Turkey. There are some Turkmen young men in Nusra front and similar terrorist organizations, but that's all. There may be also some Turkmen civilian villages left, with a few hundreds of population which are armed to defend their villages against invaders, but they are not in the area that Russia is bombing.

- Being sensitive about Turkmens in Syria and naming this topic as a red line is another big lie to gain public support for aggression against Syria and Russia. In June-July 2014 ISIS killed thousands of Turkmen, raped the Turkmen women or sold them as slaves in Northern Iraq. But the Turkish government did nothing to protect them. They didn't even mentioned about this slaughter which was happening in front of them. Oh wait, maybe because they were Shiite Turkmens.

- Assad and Syrian regime being oppressive against Turkmen population is another lie. The first president of Syria after the independence in 1946 was a Turkmen: Sükrü Kuvvetli, even his name is Turkish. There have been many other Turkmen in high level positions in Syrian government until today. Even when the war started the Chief of Army was a Sunni Turkmen appointed by Assad, Hasan Turkmani who was killed in 2012 by Free Syrian Army a.k.a Erdogan's good boys.

 

[Laura]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

The Turkmen card which Turkish Government and Erdogan playing to disgrace Russia's operations in Syria and to legitimize downing of the Russian jet is a big lie :

- According to trustable, objective Turkish sources who know the area well and have almost daily contact to the people located there; in the mountainous region where Russia is bombing there are no Turkmen civilians left. Years ago, after the war in Syria started they either migrated to South of Syria or to Turkey. There are some Turkmen young men in Nusra front and similar terrorist organizations, but that's all. There may be also some Turkmen civilian villages left, with a few hundreds of population which are armed to defend their villages against invaders, but they are not in the area that Russia is bombing.

- Being sensitive about Turkmens in Syria and naming this topic as a red line is another big lie to gain public support for aggression against Syria and Russia. In June-July 2014 ISIS killed thousands of Turkmen, raped the Turkmen women or sold them as slaves in Northern Iraq. But the Turkish government did nothing to protect them. They didn't even mentioned about this slaughter which was happening in front of them. Oh wait, maybe because they were Shiite Turkmens.

- Assad and Syrian regime being oppressive against Turkmen population is another lie. The first president of Syria after the independence in 1946 was a Turkmen: Sükrü Kuvvetli, even his name is Turkish. There have been many other Turkmen in high level positions in Syrian government until today. Even when the war started the Chief of Army was a Sunni Turkmen appointed by Assad, Hasan Turkmani who was killed in 2012 by Free Syrian Army a.k.a Erdogan's good boys.

You should explain this to a nutcase who keeps posting on my FB wall about how wonderful Erdogan is and how evil Putin is. See: https://www.facebook.com/laura.knightjadczyk/posts/10153805276434679?comment_id=10153807607474679

and https://www.facebook.com/laura.knightjadczyk/posts/10153805962264679?comment_id=10153807415584679

https://www.facebook.com/laura.knightjadczyk/posts/10153806248394679?comment_id=10153807428079679

https://www.facebook.com/laura.knightjadczyk/posts/10153807439319679?comment_id=10153807726639679

https://www.facebook.com/laura.knightjadczyk/posts/10153807439319679?comment_id=10153807898734679

etc etc.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Turkey shot down Russian fighter jet over Syria

I read this morning on a bunch of blogs that had Syrian sources (and also some Russian sources) that the Russians started hugely increasing the bombing in the area where the plane was shot down. So the Turkey supported terrorists in the area seem to have taken a real beating in that area. Russia also said they'll be delivering the S400 system missiles (the rest of the systems are already in Syria, just the missiles for the system are being delivered now - seems Russia had anticipated something like this). The Turks grounded their air force I read on SOTT and other sites this morning. So they're scared of the Russian announcement that any threats to Russian aerospace forces will be destroyed (there were reports that Russia had "painted" all Turkish military planes flying near the border with their radar systems, meaning they can and will shoot down anything that endangers their forces).