upsetting knee-jerk reaction

[tendrini]

Yikes!

My husband is always telling me that I just blurt things out and don't think through how they affect other people, and up to now I really hadn't believed him. I just thought he was overly sensitive.

Much to think about for me.

I'm aware of several motivations. One is fear that if Rofo was angered that he would become an enemy of this group. which I very much identify with, even though I rarely post. Over the last eight years it has been a very important part of my life and has changed my worldview enormously.

Another was thinking how hurt I would be if someone told me to "take my toys and go home" or "weeded out another one" or that my avatar was creepy. Posting is a very scary thing and its not easy to express oneself with only the written word.

Another is how weird this exchange seemed to me. I'm not sure I was aware of all of it. Forgive me for this subjective interpretation, but it seemed to me that Laura was more irritated in this exchange than I have ever seen. Rofo didn't seem annoying enough to elicit this intensity and I guess I wonder if there is something I'm missing (obviously there is). I have always admired Laura's ability to deal with people of all sorts with a lot of patience.

Finally, the last thing I would ever want to do is to contribute to Laura being exhausted. This issue bothers me a lot because I see it in my husband all the time. He teaches at a university and he is dreadfully overworked but he feels that he can never turn down any request for help. He is always giving of his time and energy and never lets others know that he is exhausted and also dealing with some serious health problems that cause him a great deal of discomfort. Please forgive me if I'm projecting that Laura is doing the same thing.

I don't know if I have any right to ask you to forgive me for being insulting and manipulative, except to tell you truly that I didn't mean to be taken that way.

 

[anart]

Yikes!

My husband is always telling me that I just blurt things out and don't think through how they affect other people, and up to now I really hadn't believed him. I just thought he was overly sensitive.

Much to think about for me.

I would think so.

I'm aware of several motivations. One is fear that if Rofo was angered that he would become an enemy of this group. which I very much identify with, even though I rarely post. Over the last eight years it has been a very important part of my life and has changed my worldview enormously.

Another was thinking how hurt I would be if someone told me to "take my toys and go home" or "weeded out another one" or that my avatar was creepy. Posting is a very scary thing and its not easy to express oneself with only the written word.

All of the above is inappropriate projection. There is no reason to think that rofo reacts/thinks/feels the way you do.

Another is how weird this exchange seemed to me. I'm not sure I was aware of all of it. Forgive me for this subjective interpretation, but it seemed to me that Laura was more irritated in this exchange than I have ever seen. Rofo didn't seem annoying enough to elicit this intensity and I guess I wonder if there is something I'm missing (obviously there is). I have always admired Laura's ability to deal with people of all sorts with a lot of patience.

This, again, is an error in your reading instrument. I did not read or sense that Laura was 'irritated' or 'more irritated'. You read that into the situation and took it as fact without questioning your own thinking. You are still not questioning your own thinking.

Finally, the last thing I would ever want to do is to contribute to Laura being exhausted.

Laura always has more on her plate than ten normal human beings - she's not exhausted and you're again reading things that are not there and are not questioning your thinking.

This issue bothers me a lot because I see it in my husband all the time. He teaches at a university and he is dreadfully overworked but he feels that he can never turn down any request for help. He is always giving of his time and energy and never lets others know that he is exhausted and also dealing with some serious health problems that cause him a great deal of discomfort. Please forgive me if I'm projecting that Laura is doing the same thing.

Yes, I think you are projecting. If I'm mistaken on that, I'm sure Laura will correct me.

I don't know if I have any right to ask you to forgive me for being insulting and manipulative, except to tell you truly that I didn't mean to be taken that way.

Then it's quite a lesson in working to come across in the way you intend and to pay attention to your words and their effect. All there is is lessons and we are all learning all the time.

 

[Guardian]

or that my avatar was creepy.

I think you have a very cute Avatar. :D

Finding the eyeless Avatar creepy may well be a cultural thing.... where I come from it's considered VERY rude not to take off your sunglasses when you're talking to someone so they can see your eyes.

Posting is a very scary thing and its not easy to express oneself with only the written word.

I've seen others mention that "posting is scary" for them...so I understand that some folks do feel that way, but I have a hard time believing that someone who just busts in and starts pushing a particular viewpoint is "scared"

Rofo didn't seem annoying enough to elicit this intensity and I guess I wonder if there is something I'm missing (obviously there is).

Did ya happen to miss the part where he mentioned he was INTENTIONALLY being annoying? He KNEW his posts were contrary to the focus of both the thread AND group. That's what ticked me off. He didn't even have the decency to start his own thread, he hijacked one she was using for research into a particular topic.

If you're looking for a fight or want to toot your own horn, create your own forum...or better yet, go to Usenet...that's what it's for.

I have always admired Laura's ability to deal with people of all sorts with a lot of patience.

I certainly can't speak for Laura, but when dealing with others (in any venue) my patience is directly tied to their INTENT.

Earlier today my roommate went to the store, and when she got back, she got my truck stuck in the mud. It was kinda funny, and I had to work at not laughing because she was very embarrassed...but no reason to get snarky because she didn't mean to get the truck stuck.

Now if she'd said "I think I'll drive Betsy's truck into a mud hole just to annoy her because I really enjoy giving people grief and wasting their time".... we wouldn't still be roommates. It's all about intent...at least to me.
From my perspective, Laura showed wayyyyy more patience with the guy than I would have. I would have booted him when he made this post.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=18760.msg178074#msg178074

If you want respect, show it to others. You just don't flounce into someone's house and take a poop on the carpet they're trying to shampoo.


PS: When I say "you" I mean the universal "you"...not "you" in particular.

 

[SeekinTruth]

I just want to add that rofo was annoying enough. And that's with me missing some of the initial posts BEFORE they were split off into another topic thread. (I was confused at first because other forum members quoted and made references to posts by rofo that were already moved. I must have just missed them.) I mean, rofo just kept coming back selecting what he wants to respond to, projecting his own behavior and refused to acknowledge his blind spots and manipulative behavior, accusing others of what HE was doing, etc.

What really shows people like rofo up is that they claim they've uncovered a crucial flaw in the working hypothesis or one branch of it, but either present no data or present totally irrelevant and/or invalid data. They continue to insist that what they're saying should convince the rest of the network to accept (and naturally be greatful for) their pointing out the "error of our ways and ideas" and on and on. I mean, what the heck are people like this hanging around this forum for? If I felt any way near what these types claim, I'd just leave and go elsewhere where I wouldn't have to insist on correcting the crucial "error of the ways" of those I want to research and network with. Right? If we are so deluded (and there's been instances where this claim of some crux of the matter being opposed and claimed that we were deluded was proclaimed MUCH more forcefully, and even over many years sometimes) why bother sticking around and trying to convince us? But if there was data that supported the claims and made a strong case for revising some part of a hypothesis, etc., we certainly would have BEEN convinced and made whatever adjustments necessary. Just doesn't make sense and points to some other motive like a "right man" program or something similar. These types just wait around trying to convince us something that can't be supported by data and objective reasoning, I suspect, so THEY don't have to change THEIR conclusions that are untenable.

 

[tendrini]

Feeling utterly horrid about my posts. My husband tells me I say insensitive things, my daughter thinks I'm judgmental. You could add arrogant, self righteous and mechanical. I think I see the flaws in others, but not in myself, as I seem to have a giant blind spot. Your many replies have illuminated this part of my personality and the experience has been quite painful. I hope I'm learning, but it's certainly not fun.

 

[Laura]

Feeling utterly horrid about my posts. My husband tells me I say insensitive things, my daughter thinks I'm judgmental. You could add arrogant, self righteous and mechanical. I think I see the flaws in others, but not in myself, as I seem to have a giant blind spot. Your many replies have illuminated this part of my personality and the experience has been quite painful. I hope I'm learning, but it's certainly not fun.

If it was me, I think I would be more frightened to realize that I have a big blind spot in my thinking that prevents me from seeing reality and puts me in danger in many ways. In fact, it was just such a realization many years ago that led to the idea that one must network because we are all programmed.

 

[tendrini]

Laura -

I don't think I have the sense yet to be frightened. I'm too busy being ashamed. All I can see is that I often lose awareness and act unconsciously, and realize too late that I've blown it in some way.

I am seeing that arrogance and shame alternate in me all the time.

I'm wondering if both arrogance and shame come from self-importance, and that I need to let go of both in order to continue to network. Right now I'd much rather hide under a rock that participate in this forum, but perhaps this desire to hide is just my ego seeking protection.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Laura -

I'm wondering if both arrogance and shame come from self-importance, and that I need to let go of both in order to continue to network. Right now I'd much rather hide under a rock that participate in this forum, but perhaps this desire to hide is just my ego seeking protection.

I think you're spot on here on both counts. You could substitute 'Predator' for 'Ego,' too.

As for shame, there is a disfunctional aspect to it, but remorse is healthy. So I guess the question is what exactly are the differences between remorse and shame?

 

[EmeraldHope]

Laura -

I'm wondering if both arrogance and shame come from self-importance, and that I need to let go of both in order to continue to network. Right now I'd much rather hide under a rock that participate in this forum, but perhaps this desire to hide is just my ego seeking protection.

I think you're spot on here on both counts. You could substitute 'Predator' for 'Ego,' too.

As for shame, there is a disfunctional aspect to it, but remorse is healthy. So I guess the question is what exactly are the differences between remorse and shame?

That reminds me of an article I read that discusses the differences between shame and regret. I will post it here for everyone.

The heart that is opening to greater awareness of spiritual reality is essentially a moral heart, one that wants to love more and to share the beauty of life with all beings. Such a heart often feels discouraged in the presence of its own limitations and especially in the light of truth which shines on these limitations, showing places in the self that are not loving, that may, instead, be selfish, unforgiving, and angry.

Out of such limitations, actions are taken and words are spoken that the awakening heart deeply regrets but does not know how to prevent from happening. For in the moment of expression, these words and these actions seem to leap out of oneself unbidden, often to be regretted later on. In many challenging situations in life, the ego is quick to stand up to defend itself, seizing the moment to take revenge or to assume control in some other way. Such emotional upsurges are not looked at kindly by a loving heart, even while they are looked at as necessary or justified by the self that feels threatened, wounded, or deprived.

In the presence of such limitations, one always has a number of choices. The choice that is most light-filled is that of responsible awareness - of desiring to learn from our mistakes. It is the choice of alignment with light and with higher purpose, and leads us on the path of healing with the help of our higher being and guidance from the Divine within. This choice is often accompanied by deep regret or remorse for one's past words or actions, wishing that we could take them back. Remorse or regret, however, is not a bad thing. It is the manifestation of a longing heart that desires to do better and to be better - to love more and to be more. And whether this love is directed toward another, toward God, toward the self, or toward a situation that one lives with, the yearning to love more, accompanied by remorse is founded in love and, as such, is an impetus to growth and to the expansion of the heart.

Feeling ashamed of one's past actions, by contrast, partakes of an altogether different energy. Whereas remorse (regret) is motivated by love and by faithfulness to ideals, shame is motivated by self-righteous indignation and judgment and partakes of darkness rather than light. Shame, unlike regret, is unforgiving, creates a sense of 'badness', replaces Divine mercy, understanding, and compassion, with judgments that one has made up oneself.

Shame is a judgment of the self by the self. Unlike remorse which is rooted in love, shame is rooted in anger, accusation, and self-righteousness. Often, people who feel ashamed experience the twofoldness of judgment. Directed toward the self, judgment becomes shame; directed toward others, judgment becomes blame. Many people go back and forth between these two polarities.

In the presence of mistakes, unkind words, incorrect actions, and other ways of being that one retrospectively finds lacking, it is important to assume that one is a learner - a learner about love - and to meet the situation with remorse rather than shame. Remorse and regret keep the heart open to ways of loving better. They also allow for the necessary humility to continue learning, knowing that mistakes will be made again and again as learning progresses.

With an open heart, willing to learn, all limitations can be embraced with compassion, and all shame can disappear. This is the way of the Divine within the human, it is the way of spiritual progress, and it is the way of love which holds compassion for all, including and most essentially the self.

Article listed here : -http://ezinearticles.com/?Awakening---The-Difference-Between-Remorse-and-Shame&id=1682252

 

[tendrini]

Wow, EmeraldHope -

This passage really describes what's going on with me. Especially this part:


Shame is a judgment of the self by the self. Unlike remorse which is rooted in love, shame is rooted in anger, accusation, and self-righteousness. Often, people who feel ashamed experience the twofoldness of judgment. Directed toward the self, judgment becomes shame; directed toward others, judgment becomes blame. Many people go back and forth between these two polarities.

Thanks for posting this. Much food for thought.

 

[Chu]

Hi tendrini,

I think you have the answer yourself, and that this is mainly about self-importance.

I don't think I have the sense yet to be frightened. I'm too busy being ashamed. All I can see is that I often lose awareness and act unconsciously, and realize too late that I've blown it in some way.

Why do you think you often "lose awareness and act unconsciously"? What is it that triggers you to "blow it"?

I think that another difference between remorse and shame is that being ashamed often comes from one's self-importance more than anything. One feels ashamed because others have seen a part of ourselves that we want to hide. Being ashamed can sometimes destroy the good image we have of ourselves. But it is not really learning yet, until you realize that you have nothing to lose. Living a lie (that is, through the false image you present and convince yourself of) is detrimental to you and others. So why keep doing it? Being "exposed" is good for You in many ways. It is just hard for the false "You".

I am seeing that arrogance and shame alternate in me all the time.

This is what happens when one has a hard time letting go off their self-image.

I'm wondering if both arrogance and shame come from self-importance, and that I need to let go of both in order to continue to network. Right now I'd much rather hide under a rock that participate in this forum, but perhaps this desire to hide is just my ego seeking protection.

You said it yourself. If I were you, I would read Laura's post to you here, and really ponder about it. It is our distorted self-image that leads us to be ponerized to a great extent.

 

[tendrini]

Hi Ailen -

I have read Laura's post again and I'm still not sure I understand all of it. The description here fits:

The oversimplified pattern, devoid of psychological color and based on easily available data, exerts an intense influence upon individuals who are insufficiently critical, frequently frustrated as result of downward social adjustment, culturally neglected, or characterized by some psychological deficiencies. Others are provoked to criticism based on their healthy common sense, also they fail to grasp this essential cause of the error.


Since I have little in the way of accomplishments to show for my 55 years of living, my self-image is rather fragile. I envy other people who have done more with their lives and who are smarter or more talented than I am, and I suspect that the self-righteousness comes from this.

I'm not sure if I am "uncritical" or "pathological". I hope I'm not schizoidal.

As for why I lose consciousness, I really don't know, but it happens a lot. My mind wanders excessively. It's almost as if I cycle in and out of awareness, regularly missing chunks of time and pretending to have been paying attention when I actually haven't been there at all. It's often embarrassing. Oddly, when doing EE, I have managed to hold on to my focus on reality better than at most times.

 

[Oxajil]

As for why I lose consciousness, I really don't know, but it happens a lot. My mind wanders excessively. It's almost as if I cycle in and out of awareness, regularly missing chunks of time and pretending to have been paying attention when I actually haven't been there at all. It's often embarrassing.

That sounds a lot like dissociating. You might be interested reading The Myth of Sanity by Dr. Martha Stout which makes this clear.

 

[EmeraldHope]

I'm not sure if I am "uncritical" or "pathological". I hope I'm not schizoidal.

As for why I lose consciousness, I really don't know, but it happens a lot. My mind wanders excessively. It's almost as if I cycle in and out of awareness, regularly missing chunks of time and pretending to have been paying attention when I actually haven't been there at all. It's often embarrassing. Oddly, when doing EE, I have managed to hold on to my focus on reality better than at most times.

Tendrini,

In reading your above passage I cannot help but wonder if you are not disassociating. Have you read Myth of Sanity yet? I've had issues with it as well. Actually, in doing EE I got an actual visual on it, and I can now feel the "groove" where my conciousness withdraws from my body when it is happeneing. I discussed it a little in this thread: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=17581.45.

In regards to disassoication- 100% for sure was dissasoiciated for what I would estimate the majority of my life. I can even tell you the area I would disasoicate to was to the upper left hand side of my head. After I started doing the EE program, about 2 weeks in I would say, I had a very strange incident in regards to this. It scared me a little actually but it is fine. I had gotten done doing EE and about 30 minutes afterwards I started seeing white ligtt out of the left corner of my left eye. It then started arcing up to the left then curved around to the top of my head. I could see this for about 15 minutes or so. No pain or anything- but scared me because I thought I may be going blind. About an hour later after it stopped I realized I was 100% in my body. I know that sounds strange but it is the only I know to describe it. Based on the work and research I'd been doing I knew I could disassociate easily, and compared to before it was a whole lot better, but I had no clue how much I was still doing this until that happened.

That may not be what I going on with you, but it is what it made me think of. If you are not familiar with disassociation you may want to do a little research, and get a copy of Myth of Sanity.


Schizoidal psychopathy is intersting. When I first started posting Laura suggested I look into it as well because in my haste and nervousness I posted some shizoidal rants as an example for my post ( I did not agree with it, but I did not consider the effect it would have on others) and she suggested I look it up. I knew what it was in context and had read about it, but since I trust Laura I reread it all again. It is funny, because I was so focused on essential psychpoathy the first time I went through all of the data, that I missed quite a bit. So, being uncritical sometimes can amount to lack of knowledge as well. I cannot tell you how many times I've faced a gap in my knowledge and had to spend weeks learning things. If I had understood schizoidal psychopathy to the degree I understood essential psychopathy I would have saved myself some time drawing the same conclusions about certain writings in the end, by simplay being able to identify them upfront.

I can also feel for your statement that you hope you are not schizoidal . Ever since Laura had me look it up I have been asking myself, am I? I do not think I am, but maybe Laura sees something I do not. I've even had nightmares about it.

 

[tendrini]

Hello again and thanks for all the advice. I have spent the last few weeks reading. Just finished Myth of Sanity and have ordered the other three recommended books. Also, working my way through the recommended threads for the Work section.

It's embarrassing to admit, but over all the years that I have been reading on this forum, I've never paid much attention to The Work section, probably because it looked like too much "work". Instead, I've just skimmed over the surface, reading an article here and there and not really understanding the importance of this kind of effort. I've been looking "out" - at conspiracy, unexplained phenomena, instead of "in". This whole process has been such a wake-up call for me, especially since I just assumed I understood what this group was all about and I very clearly see now that I didn't. I've been way way off.

I still have a long way to go to catch up on all the information I've been ignoring. One thing that I've been wondering about is this recurring dream I have of being in a school and not being ready for a test because I wasn't paying attention. I know this is a common dream, but I seem to have a deluxe version. It's both frequent and emotionally upsetting. It has always puzzled me because I was a reasonably competent student decades ago. Perhaps it's a message that I really have been missing lessons.