Vaccination of Dogs and Cats - Very Important Information

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
If I were you I wouldn't vaccinate for anything else but Rabies. Before Rabies shot I usually recommend homeopathic remedy Thuja 30c one granule in the mouth for 3 days prior to the vaccine and and 3 days after. Its always better to comply with Rabies vaccination as it is compulsory but Parvo is completely unnecessary. Always make sure that no other vaccination is given at the same time as Rabies vaccine!
 

Voyageur

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Big thanks for the confirmation HE and especially for the homeopathic treatment prior and post immunization.
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Herr Eisenheim said:
If I were you I wouldn't vaccinate for anything else but Rabies. Before Rabies shot I usually recommend homeopathic remedy Thuja 30c one granule in the mouth for 3 days prior to the vaccine and and 3 days after. Its always better to comply with Rabies vaccination as it is compulsory but Parvo is completely unnecessary. Always make sure that no other vaccination is given at the same time as Rabies vaccine!

It i ok if you put the granule in a little amount of water? because right there in the mouth it seems to me a very difficult situation. And just one granule? Can it be 5 granules? Usually when taking homeopathy we take 5 granules. Is one enough?

Thanks.
 

DavidHP

Padawan Learner
Thank You for this post, very informative. We have first hand experience with the Rabies vaccine. One the of cats that lives with us developed a lump on the left side, it got bigger and we took him to the vet. The vet mentioned right away that it was cancer, that the tumor was a result of earlier vaccines against rabies which back then the vet did not know would produce cancer later on in life. The tumor was removed and has not come back yet - the vet was not optimist, but we are happy with the results.

I try to feed the cats with a grain free diet and everyone always comment how big the cats are, they get to a lean 16 to 20 pound weight , I do not like the flea " medications " either , in my view that poisons the cat ir order to poison the fleas.
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
loreta said:
It i ok if you put the granule in a little amount of water? because right there in the mouth it seems to me a very difficult situation. And just one granule? Can it be 5 granules? Usually when taking homeopathy we take 5 granules. Is one enough?

Thanks.
Ups loreta I somehow completely missed your post.
Yes, you can actually dissolve the granule in a small glass of water about 200ml. One granule of 30 c potency is enough. After it dissolves stir well ( for at least 30sec) and give one teaspoon in the mouth twice a day, 3 days prior to and 3 days after the vaccination. You can use the same solution just cover it with the cling film or saucer and keep away from the sun light. No need to refrigerate.
 

loreta

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
H.E. said:
loreta said:
It i ok if you put the granule in a little amount of water? because right there in the mouth it seems to me a very difficult situation. And just one granule? Can it be 5 granules? Usually when taking homeopathy we take 5 granules. Is one enough?

Thanks.
Ups loreta I somehow completely missed your post.
Yes, you can actually dissolve the granule in a small glass of water about 200ml. One granule of 30 c potency is enough. After it dissolves stir well ( for at least 30sec) and give one teaspoon in the mouth twice a day, 3 days prior to and 3 days after the vaccination. You can use the same solution just cover it with the cling film or saucer and keep away from the sun light. No need to refrigerate.
No problem, H.E. I still have to go to vaccinate my dogs, even if I am scare of it. I will follow your indications, thank you. :)
 

Voyageur

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
H.E. said:
If I were you I wouldn't vaccinate for anything else but Rabies. Before Rabies shot I usually recommend homeopathic remedy Thuja 30c one granule in the mouth for 3 days prior to the vaccine and and 3 days after. Its always better to comply with Rabies vaccination as it is compulsory but Parvo is completely unnecessary. Always make sure that no other vaccination is given at the same time as Rabies vaccine!
Hi H.E.,

After asking back in August about this, my answer for our two dogs was to avoid the requests for vaccinations until another reminder came, which it did, and until Thuja could be purchased. As such, found Thuja fairly locally (have not purchased yet) and the veterinarian (Homeopathic), who i've never met, was kind enough to call me back. She said she uses it, has it, yet recommended, as she has had many reports of pre vaccination administration problems (reactions to Thuja), to do this after the fact if issues are noted (she seems to think this better option from what she has seen). She also mentioned that unless you have to inoculate for Rabies because of crossing the US boarder issues, she said she would not inoculate after the first rounds (as young puppies). She mentioned that new research indicates long term stability of the first inoculations and that there is some type of "plate" (not sure if that was it) test that can be used at the boarder, as long as it shows compatibility to what the original levels of inoculation should be. She also mentioned, without her remembering the name, that there is a particular remedy (Homeopathic) for Rabies, different from Thuja, that has been used effectively prior to Rabies inoculations. She seems to be telling me that even as one of the dogs is eight and one a few years younger, just to not worry about it (this was a strong statement).

I am very nervous about taking further inoculation steps, but recognize that the standard seems to be every 3 years, yet you have mentioned 6-7 years to next shot after puppy stage. Given that they were inoculated (at least the older one) three years ago, was thinking just to let him be.

One of my questions to her was about why the discrepancies on vaccination timelines. She mentioned that long range testing (of individual canine subject(s)) is just so difficult to track over their lifetime, and that studies do not represent a large study group and are speculative more so than exacting.

What do you think? Is it reasonable to sit this next round out given that he has had two rounds since puppyhood, one just three years ago?

Thank you!
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
voyageur said:
What do you think? Is it reasonable to sit this next round out given that he has had two rounds since puppyhood, one just three years ago?

Thank you!
My dogs both had only one rabies vaccination ( one as adult and the other one as puppy) - I dont have any intention of giving them rabies vaccine ever again. The only vaccine I intend to ever give them is leptospira and this will happen in 4 years intervals.

If you dont have any plans to relocate with your dog or be in any situation where rabies vaccine is warranted I would do the same. If you live close to the forest or in area with high rabies risk I would do rabies antibodies titer in two years time and only vaccinate if this is unsatisfactory.
 

Voyageur

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Ok, thanks for the advice. Think i'll try this later as suggested - "rabies antibodies titer" and go from there. Also caught what you said about "leptospira" and can't ever remember present or passed veterinarians telling me about this or inoculating our dogs against this; perhaps they do and had just not noticed - will check this also.

A quick search discusses the CDC's take on this and calls it Leptospira an "Emerging Infectious Disease" being transmitted to humans.

CDC said:
Leptospirosis is a worldwide zoonosis, usually transmitted to humans through contaminated water or direct exposure to the urine of infected animals. The clinical spectrum of the disease ranges from an influenza-like syndrome to Weil's disease and multiple organ dysfunction syndrome (1). The causative agents of human leptospirosis belong to the genus Leptospira, which contains both saprophytic and pathogenic species (1). L. fainei was first isolated from pigs in Australia (2). Subsequently, several reports based on serologic testing suggested that L. fainei might be pathogenic for humans as well (3,4). This potential has been recently confirmed by isolating L. fainei from the urine of two patients and the blood of one patient in Denmark (5). We report a typical case of leptospirosis in which L. fainei was directly observed in the cerebral spinal fluid (CSF) and was isolated from both CSF and blood.
_http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/8/8/01-0445_article.htm

Leptospira is also mentioned in the forum here.
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
voyageur said:
Also caught what you said about "leptospira" and can't ever remember present or passed veterinarians telling me about this or inoculating our dogs against this; perhaps they do and had just not noticed - will check this also.
If they received usual combined vaccine (7 in 1) leptospira should be included. It can be given as a singular vaccine and this vaccine should be given more frequently then other vaccines. Its is wide spread bacterial disease carried by mice or rat's urine which means dogs are very likely to come in contact with it, also the immunological studies show that immunity to this disease lasts less long then in case of viral disease after vaccination.
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Herr Eisenheim said:
If I were you I wouldn't vaccinate for anything else but Rabies. Before Rabies shot I usually recommend homeopathic remedy Thuja 30c one granule in the mouth for 3 days prior to the vaccine and and 3 days after. Its always better to comply with Rabies vaccination as it is compulsory but Parvo is completely unnecessary. Always make sure that no other vaccination is given at the same time as Rabies vaccine!
I realize that my current vet education is maybe going to provide me with a proper foundation of the basis medical knowledge, but clearly there will be also many things that I'll need to unlearn if I were to take a natural and much more beneficial approach to treating animals. Especially when the impression a student often gets here, that surgery skills are more highly regarded than being a good therapist or good at preventive medicine. So, even if I understand that one should be well versed at accepted fundamentals first before trying to learn something different, I would greatly appreciate if you, HE, would help me avoid having some basic but crucial misconceptions regarding certain issues. Specifically the issue of vaccination.

Now, in the above you write that the only vaccination a pet may ever need is for Rabies. I had an opportunity to help in one of the academy clinics, and of course there were all kind of patients with all kind of problems, but I've noticed that when it came to cats, many of them were diagnosed with Feline Panleukopenia. They were never vaccinated for anything (the law here says that it isn't necessary to vaccinate even for rabies if the pet lives only indoors) and when cat owners bring them to the clinic they are often already in a poor state, and even giving them a serum doesn't help. The same is with Feline Calicivirus, while in this case treatment with serum usually does help.

For dogs it's Canine Parvovirus, but most of the serious cases were of Piroplasmosis. So the owners are advised to vaccinate their pets when they reach 3 months with a complex vaccine, and then advised to revaccinate every year. Now, from reading the first article in this thread, I understand that there is no need to revaccinate every year but once in 7 years. But what I want to clarify is if those vaccinations are indeed needed, considering the fact that there are probably animals that wouldn't contract the virus if they were vaccinated, and also because administering a serum afterwards helped to deal with it.

What else, some time ago I heard a Natural Veterinary Medicine podcast where a lady vet talked against any kind of vaccination, saying that vaccination interferes with a natural immunization and selection process. Meaning, that most of the pets if left for the own devices would be able to develop a natural immunity against most of the viruses, and those who don't and get infected are simply weaker, and that's the unfortunate result of the natural selection. Well, I understand the concept, but on the other hand, an owner may have a hard time swallowing the idea that his or her pet just lost the evolution Russian roulette. But perhaps I misunderstood it.

So what would you advice in such cases? Would you still advice to avoid any vaccinations (except maybe for Rabies)? And maybe there are some other treatments, preventive measures and such? Thanks a lot in advance!
 

Deckard

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Keit said:
I realize that my current vet education is maybe going to provide me with a proper foundation of the basis medical knowledge, but clearly there will be also many things that I'll need to unlearn if I were to take a natural and much more beneficial approach to treating animals. Especially when the impression a student often gets here, that surgery skills are more highly regarded than being a good therapist or good at preventive medicine. So, even if I understand that one should be well versed at accepted fundamentals first before trying to learn something different, I would greatly appreciate if you, HE, would help me avoid having some basic but crucial misconceptions regarding certain issues. Specifically the issue of vaccination.
I think you are at the great advantage for being exposed to great deal of knowledge and off stream sources at such early stage of your professional education. Its not easy to shake your foundations after they have been cemented by mainstream science for great number of years. I think employing " thinking with a hammer" from the beginning of your education will definitely make you a better vet,
I do believe that surgery is only straight forward thing in the medicine while the therapy in veterinary medicine is most of the time "nothing but shooting in the dark", I am saying this because the usual therapeutic protocol in 90% of the cases for every mainstream is antibiotics and antinflamatories. You probably noticed this already. So it is indeed up to you to make the difference and try to get the best both from mainstream and alternative approach.
Keit said:
Now, in the above you write that the only vaccination a pet may ever need is for Rabies. I had an opportunity to help in one of the academy clinics, and of course there were all kind of patients with all kind of problems, but I've noticed that when it came to cats, many of them were diagnosed with Feline Panleukopenia. They were never vaccinated for anything (the law here says that it isn't necessary to vaccinate even for rabies if the pet lives only indoors) and when cat owners bring them to the clinic they are often already in a poor state, and even giving them a serum doesn't help. The same is with Feline Calicivirus, while in this case treatment with serum usually does help.
Well I certainly wouldn't want to throw out baby with the bath water. I do think that certain vaccines work, for example we haven't had outbreak of Canine Distemper in this sea locked country for at least 15 years which coincides with introduction of import vaccination rules and increased vaccination of dogs by their owners.
Its the annual re vaccination that is the problem.
When it comes to cats I am almost determined to never again re-vaccinate, after the initial immunization has been administered ( at least 2 vaccines in first year) unless the owner insists as I had few cases of cats succumbing to "mysterious illness" only few days after vaccine, where blood tests offered no clue whatsoever , with unspecific neurological symptoms ( leg weakness, inbalance, staring) , listlessness lack of appetite and the only thing these cats had in common was the annual vaccination.
Keit said:
For dogs it's Canine Parvovirus, but most of the serious cases were of Piroplasmosis. So the owners are advised to vaccinate their pets when they reach 3 months with a complex vaccine, and then advised to revaccinate every year. Now, from reading the first article in this thread, I understand that there is no need to revaccinate every year but once in 7 years. But what I want to clarify is if those vaccinations are indeed needed, considering the fact that there are probably animals that wouldn't contract the virus if they were vaccinated, and also because administering a serum afterwards helped to deal with it.
I would be very careful with using only Parvo vaccine. In last couple of years it has become practice of many vets to vaccinate puppies with Parvo only vaccine as early as 3 weeks of age. While this doesn't make any sense as the puppies at that age are protected by maternal antibodies it can be damaging as I heard of many reports of Parvo being induced by the vaccine. So I consider this very bad practice.
When it comes to Piroplasmosis or Babesiosis - this disease doesn't exist where I live at the moment, it use to be big problem in country I lived in before. Not really sure. It is a protozoa and I wonder how efficient the vaccine is. We have the similar situation with Leishmaniasis here and recently they launched new vaccine - which is only 70 % efficient. The producer of the vaccine admitted this initially although now they are trying to stretch it to 90%. While this creates false sense of security in the owner who then neglects repelling the vectors there are also many cases of severe reactions to this vaccine, in only one year from its launch I have seen 3 very bad cases of local reactions, 1 severe atopic dermatitits that occurred immediately after the vaccine and 2 cases of "mysterious" illness. Therefore I strongly advise against it.
This is very difficult because this vaccine is very expensive and significant money generator for the industry, fortunately I found out that there a some of my colleagues locally who share the same view - so there is hope.
Keit said:
What else, some time ago I heard a Natural Veterinary Medicine podcast where a lady vet talked against any kind of vaccination, saying that vaccination interferes with a natural immunization and selection process. Meaning, that most of the pets if left for the own devices would be able to develop a natural immunity against most of the viruses, and those who don't and get infected are simply weaker, and that's the unfortunate result of the natural selection. Well, I understand the concept, but on the other hand, an owner may have a hard time swallowing the idea that his or her pet just lost the evolution Russian roulette. But perhaps I misunderstood it.
Well it certainly makes sense. I think keeping the immune system up to scratch by proper nutrition and perhaps using homeopathic nosodes might be the way to go.
Keit said:
So what would you advice in such cases? Would you still advice to avoid any vaccinations (except maybe for Rabies)? And maybe there are some other treatments, preventive measures and such? Thanks a lot in advance!
Well each case has its own merits, epidemiological situation , individual animal etc. This is where you will have to utilize all the knowledge you have both main stream and off stream and devise your own protocols and policy. Its not easy but its still better then vaccinating indiscriminately and following the main stream protocols like a bible.
I hope this helps at least a little bit :)
 

Voyageur

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Herr Eisenheim said:
I would be very careful with using only Parvo vaccine. In last couple of years it has become practice of many vets to vaccinate puppies with Parvo only vaccine as early as 3 weeks of age. While this doesn't make any sense as the puppies at that age are protected by maternal antibodies it can be damaging as I heard of many reports of Parvo being induced by the vaccine. So I consider this very bad practice.
Just wanted to say that our very first dog as a new family was in 1982, and although not at 3 weeks, he was given the Parvo vaccine and then contracted Parvo. He had a high fever and developed pitted enamel - it was sad watching him as a puppy go through this; he did survived to live to 14.
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Herr Eisenheim said:
Well each case has its own merits, epidemiological situation , individual animal etc. This is where you will have to utilize all the knowledge you have both main stream and off stream and devise your own protocols and policy. Its not easy but its still better then vaccinating indiscriminately and following the main stream protocols like a bible.
I hope this helps at least a little bit :)
Yes, it helps a lot! Thank you for the explanation.
 

Alana

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Herr Eisenheim said:
If I were you I wouldn't vaccinate for anything else but Rabies. Before Rabies shot I usually recommend homeopathic remedy Thuja 30c one granule in the mouth for 3 days prior to the vaccine and and 3 days after.
Our Pepe has to get micro-chipped and receive a rabies vaccine before he travels overseas, so thank you for the above. I just called our local Health Food store and they have Thuja 30c. I'll get it later today.

For the trip, we also got him his size-appropriate kennel and put his bed inside. At first, we left it open on top, until he started using it, and when he looked comfortable with it, we added the top part. It took a while longer for him to go inside his "cave", but this is where he sleeps now.

We read the pet travel safety measures of the airlines, and are now familiar with all the paper work that is required from the country of destination. But if you, HE, or anyone else has any advice about the well-being of a dog (7 years old, good health in general) during transatlantic flights, emotional and physical, if there's anything we can do to make this as best an experience as is possible for him, do let us know.

We have the option of taking a really short (1-hour) flight, then a longer one (4-5 hrs) and then the real long one (about 10 hrs). But I think all that will be too taxing for him (I mean, it's a lot for me, and I know what's going on and why!). We can't escape the 5 and 10-hour flights though, but we could drive for 5 hours to avoid the shortest flight. Would that make any difference for him?
 
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