Vegetarianism?
- Thread starter Tigersoap
- Start date
truth seeker
The Living Force
Dingo said:
My take on it is here. Not sure if that answers your question. If not, let me know. :)
The thing is, with this argument, one can easily go round and round with it. I did. If we are 3D and by necessity need to physically eat to survive what are the choices? To me, no matter what option we choose, there is the violation of free will. The main difference with plants and animals in my view is that we can see one suffer more easily than we can the other (we don't have the ability to perceive a plant struggling or making noise in the same manner that we can with an animal). Research has been done on this and it has been found that they are affected in ways we are not conscious of.
In light of this information, what are your thoughts? :)
Tigersoap
The Living Force
truth seeker said:
I came around the same conclusion and stopped being a vegetarian (after many years of it) as it did not seem to make sense anymore.
It wasn't easy, I was feeling all guilty and weird but it was also a test against my own programs.
Probably the decision to become a vegetarian in the first place had to do with trying to become perfect somehow, or at least purer, which of course has nothing to do with who you really are.
I wish I was able to not eat anything but as I am in 3D...:)
shellycheval
The Living Force
It is almost impossible to sustain the body in 3D without killing some sentient plant or animal. One would have to hand harvest enough fruits, nuts, and plants after they died, and be careful where you stepped while you are doing it, to last throughout the winter to the next harvest season to even come close to eating without killing something else. Every field harvested with machinery kills millions of insects and spiders, usually some toads, snakes, and often nesting birds, and rabbits. When you figure in the toll of pesticides, loss of habitat, and the road kill incurred trucking your organic produce to market then one reason becomes clear why it is that we cannot be STO while living on 3D earth. It appears to me that the best we can do is fight for less cruelty in farming practices, and become conscious and grateful for the sacrifices made to sustain our lives.
shellycheval
shellycheval
cholas
Dagobah Resident
Dingo said:
Hi Dingo. To be clear-cut black/white in either issue sounds like programs running to me. Simply because your opinion of smoking is apparently a negative one, it surely doesn't make it wrong for everyone. The same goes for vegetarianism. Who the cap fit and all......
I assume you were not serious about needing to 'çhange the world' literally, right?
G
Gertrudes
Guest
Hi Dingo,
I agree with what the others have said.
Why excluding plants of the equation? How can we know it doesn't hurt them when we eat them? I don't have an answer myself, I'm just putting it out for you to consider.
As others have said, in a 3D world we need to feed off animals and/or plants to survive. We might choose not to, but then we'll be hurting yourselves by not providing our body its needs. We can only work with what we have and the world that's been given to us, if we know the rules, we can make better choices. Life's rules say we need to feed, as I see it, we can choose which food to feed from by researching how the food that ends in our plate has been cared for and treated when still alive.
Some people seem to strive on vegetarianism. Others, like myself, need some animal protein for their bodies to function properly. I came to this conclusion for myself after having tested a non animal diet for 6 years. I guess it depends on one's body unique composition.
For me, it is very important to check the life conditions of the animals I eat. Making sure that the meat is organic, grass fed when appropriate, good living conditions were provided, and that the animal has suffered a painless death. I can't always know for sure all of these details, but I think it's important to keep researching.
We can't "hear" plants so we tend to assume they don't complain. However, their nutritional quality has become very dubious with mass production and GMO practices. I seriously doubt that they "enjoy" their living conditions.
As I see it, in the end, it comes down to choosing properly raised plant or animal based food. Food from beings that have been respected.
On a side note, a man from muslim faith who works with my partner, recently explained to him what halal meat was. In his words, halal meat comes from animals which have been raised humanly, being fed proper food, hormones and antibiotics are forbidden, and the animal suffers a quick painless death. In his words (reiterated by wikipedia), the jugular veins are cut with a precise swift incision, causing instant death. However, non muslim parties seem to have a different idea on halal's meat killing methods. From wikipedia:
Anyone has any further thoughts on this? I live surrounded by markets with halal meat, hence my curiosity.
I agree with what the others have said.
Dingo said:
Why excluding plants of the equation? How can we know it doesn't hurt them when we eat them? I don't have an answer myself, I'm just putting it out for you to consider.
As others have said, in a 3D world we need to feed off animals and/or plants to survive. We might choose not to, but then we'll be hurting yourselves by not providing our body its needs. We can only work with what we have and the world that's been given to us, if we know the rules, we can make better choices. Life's rules say we need to feed, as I see it, we can choose which food to feed from by researching how the food that ends in our plate has been cared for and treated when still alive.
Some people seem to strive on vegetarianism. Others, like myself, need some animal protein for their bodies to function properly. I came to this conclusion for myself after having tested a non animal diet for 6 years. I guess it depends on one's body unique composition.
For me, it is very important to check the life conditions of the animals I eat. Making sure that the meat is organic, grass fed when appropriate, good living conditions were provided, and that the animal has suffered a painless death. I can't always know for sure all of these details, but I think it's important to keep researching.
We can't "hear" plants so we tend to assume they don't complain. However, their nutritional quality has become very dubious with mass production and GMO practices. I seriously doubt that they "enjoy" their living conditions.
As I see it, in the end, it comes down to choosing properly raised plant or animal based food. Food from beings that have been respected.
On a side note, a man from muslim faith who works with my partner, recently explained to him what halal meat was. In his words, halal meat comes from animals which have been raised humanly, being fed proper food, hormones and antibiotics are forbidden, and the animal suffers a quick painless death. In his words (reiterated by wikipedia), the jugular veins are cut with a precise swift incision, causing instant death. However, non muslim parties seem to have a different idea on halal's meat killing methods. From wikipedia:
Anyone has any further thoughts on this? I live surrounded by markets with halal meat, hence my curiosity.
the_hammer
Jedi
According to the Danish wikipedia, a test was done in Hannover, Germany to test the pain experienced in the Halal killing of cows. The research team found that the cows experienced more pain when being sedated than they did getting their jugular veins and windpipe cut if they hadn't been sedated.
Of course I might have been brainwashed by the media, which is against this type of killing, but I would think that being aware of what's happening around you and feeling the blood pumping out of your neck after it has been cut through is worse than getting a sedative..
Of course I might have been brainwashed by the media, which is against this type of killing, but I would think that being aware of what's happening around you and feeling the blood pumping out of your neck after it has been cut through is worse than getting a sedative..
tridean
Jedi Master
Getting the feeling I touched a few nerves here..maybe that's a program running too.
I do not advocate anything, that includes, vegetarianism and non-smoking, however I do ask that people do not smoke around my children.
I am also not on the side of those who think plants or fish don't feel anything. I'm not on any side.
It also seems that some people have a far better ability or instinct to 'draw a line' in the sand and make a potentially life changing decision more than others. I admit here and now, that drawing that line in the sand is far harder for me to do than many others. And this is the crux of my questioning and has been for many of my more recent posts in recent months. I am struggling with making decisions in all areas of my life. I was expecting that others go/going through the same thing at some stage.
I am asking how people deal with issues, such as violation of free will, etc, and thanks, some have answered that.
The 'changing of the world' was relating to the 4th density STS who I assume do not want smoking meat eaters.
Another program running here I'd say, but I feel quite flattened now. My questions were not to antagonize, but the replies of some have made me rewrite this whole post several times, and question why I should bother. I just want help in being able to make informed life changing decisions. Some things make absolutely no sense to me, (such as the C's say, pay less attention to your physical body and more to your soul, and at this point in time, not knowing how the meat I eat was killed, the soul feels more at risk than the body if I eat soy for example) but others aren't bothered by it, so it is obvious they have more knowledge than me, but for pete's sake, I can't search for everything on my own, at some point, I need to ask for help, and is this not what a forum is for?
I turned vegetarian 9 months ago, mostly because my wife did and I wanted to support her decision, and her decision was based on animal cruelty OK, fair enough.. I have been amazed on two fronts, one, how easy it has been, my discipline has amazed me...it has shown me I have discipline, if I can just harness it for other things, and two, but also, how some of my closest friends and family have found it extremely difficult, to the point where it turned into all out argument in one case. BUT, all the while, one thing that has remained in my mind, a QUESTION, that has plagued me, and that has been, how did the native Aborigine's, the native Americans, etc, who it seems had a far better spiritual awareness and connection then westerners of today, yet they ate meat AND smoked tobacco, deal with it?
So far, thanks to me asking my questions, the answers may suggest that they had the same appreciation for all life, regardless, of whether it was meat, vegetables, fish etc, and that there must have been some thanks given. It may also be that, there appreciation for food was not compartmentalized, into fruit, meat etc, and that it all came under the one banner. Would this be a fair thought?
I do not advocate anything, that includes, vegetarianism and non-smoking, however I do ask that people do not smoke around my children.
I am also not on the side of those who think plants or fish don't feel anything. I'm not on any side.
It also seems that some people have a far better ability or instinct to 'draw a line' in the sand and make a potentially life changing decision more than others. I admit here and now, that drawing that line in the sand is far harder for me to do than many others. And this is the crux of my questioning and has been for many of my more recent posts in recent months. I am struggling with making decisions in all areas of my life. I was expecting that others go/going through the same thing at some stage.
I am asking how people deal with issues, such as violation of free will, etc, and thanks, some have answered that.
The 'changing of the world' was relating to the 4th density STS who I assume do not want smoking meat eaters.
Another program running here I'd say, but I feel quite flattened now. My questions were not to antagonize, but the replies of some have made me rewrite this whole post several times, and question why I should bother. I just want help in being able to make informed life changing decisions. Some things make absolutely no sense to me, (such as the C's say, pay less attention to your physical body and more to your soul, and at this point in time, not knowing how the meat I eat was killed, the soul feels more at risk than the body if I eat soy for example) but others aren't bothered by it, so it is obvious they have more knowledge than me, but for pete's sake, I can't search for everything on my own, at some point, I need to ask for help, and is this not what a forum is for?
I turned vegetarian 9 months ago, mostly because my wife did and I wanted to support her decision, and her decision was based on animal cruelty OK, fair enough.. I have been amazed on two fronts, one, how easy it has been, my discipline has amazed me...it has shown me I have discipline, if I can just harness it for other things, and two, but also, how some of my closest friends and family have found it extremely difficult, to the point where it turned into all out argument in one case. BUT, all the while, one thing that has remained in my mind, a QUESTION, that has plagued me, and that has been, how did the native Aborigine's, the native Americans, etc, who it seems had a far better spiritual awareness and connection then westerners of today, yet they ate meat AND smoked tobacco, deal with it?
So far, thanks to me asking my questions, the answers may suggest that they had the same appreciation for all life, regardless, of whether it was meat, vegetables, fish etc, and that there must have been some thanks given. It may also be that, there appreciation for food was not compartmentalized, into fruit, meat etc, and that it all came under the one banner. Would this be a fair thought?
D Rusak
Jedi Council Member
I've been a vegetarian for 12 years now, and a vegan (excepting occasional cheats, and butter since margarine is scary, and I don't seem to get the same lactose-intolerant reaction to it as other dairy products) for about 7. I stopped eating meat in high school because I was working in a restaurant, and the meat at the end of the night was kind of frightening, but the green beans and mashed taters were okay. I never was one who really felt strongly about the so-called "ethical" side of eating meat because I knew that humans evolved the way they did by eating meat (well, leaving 4 and higher D STS manipulation out of the equation). I just felt so much better eating vegetables. I think doing this was really good for me, it forced me off the Standard American Diet (meat 'n' potatoes; pasta 'n' gravy, cornbread 'n' fried chicken, etc) that my family, along with pretty much everyone else around me, was eating. I got to learn all different cooking techniques as well, and tried many things I never would have in my past life as a picky omnivore. My cholesterol and blood pressure, which were obscenely high due to genetics (I was an athlete in high school) finally went down to normal-low levels, and have been there ever since.
I mentioned in another thread, however, that it seems that my mind is "slowed" or "fragmented" as of late (low acetylcholine according to the Ultra Mind test, and possibly low GABA). I've had a hard time concentrating at the levels I did in past years, where I got an amazing amount (too much- got myself sick eventually) done daily. I think it's quite possible my B12 levels are depleted as well, I've only been consistently taking a multi-vitamin (in addition to cod liver oil pills) for just over a year, and it looks as though even that isn't enough. My problem is that I really just don't want to eat meat anymore, it just is a craving I have no desire for. I'm not grossed out by it, I just don't want to eat it when push comes to shove. I thought that fish would be the best way to address this, as they have lots of omega 3's, which are good for the brain. I tried eating various fish and I can't take more than a bite or two, and even those I end up swallowing like pills. I gave up for a few months and just tried again the other day, I finally was able to eat my first whole meal (10 shrimps prepared scampi-style- I sauteed the bejaysus out of them with garlic and butter, and tomatoes and herbs). This is still an ongoing battle and it seems that evidence is piling up. Of course we don't want to hurt other creatures, but I think it's better for us to deal with the bodies we have and use them efficiently to deal with higher matters- recogning with this STS world we live in, dealing with psychopaths, gaining knowledge, etc. If it's more efficient to eat meat, and heck, "nature" designed humans that way, then I guess I'm going to keep trying if it evidence shows I'll feel better.
I do feel a little weird about explaining to many of my peers that have known me as a vegan for so long that I'm eating meat now, but that's a bridge I'll cross when I can actually get myself to eat it consistently. A much smaller program to defeat.
I mentioned in another thread, however, that it seems that my mind is "slowed" or "fragmented" as of late (low acetylcholine according to the Ultra Mind test, and possibly low GABA). I've had a hard time concentrating at the levels I did in past years, where I got an amazing amount (too much- got myself sick eventually) done daily. I think it's quite possible my B12 levels are depleted as well, I've only been consistently taking a multi-vitamin (in addition to cod liver oil pills) for just over a year, and it looks as though even that isn't enough. My problem is that I really just don't want to eat meat anymore, it just is a craving I have no desire for. I'm not grossed out by it, I just don't want to eat it when push comes to shove. I thought that fish would be the best way to address this, as they have lots of omega 3's, which are good for the brain. I tried eating various fish and I can't take more than a bite or two, and even those I end up swallowing like pills. I gave up for a few months and just tried again the other day, I finally was able to eat my first whole meal (10 shrimps prepared scampi-style- I sauteed the bejaysus out of them with garlic and butter, and tomatoes and herbs). This is still an ongoing battle and it seems that evidence is piling up. Of course we don't want to hurt other creatures, but I think it's better for us to deal with the bodies we have and use them efficiently to deal with higher matters- recogning with this STS world we live in, dealing with psychopaths, gaining knowledge, etc. If it's more efficient to eat meat, and heck, "nature" designed humans that way, then I guess I'm going to keep trying if it evidence shows I'll feel better.
I do feel a little weird about explaining to many of my peers that have known me as a vegan for so long that I'm eating meat now, but that's a bridge I'll cross when I can actually get myself to eat it consistently. A much smaller program to defeat.
There was a similar spirited discussion a while ago on the forum about this subject - Meat, anyone?. It's also worth pointing out that, depending on blood type, one may or may not be best suited for meat or vegan lifestyles.
henry
The Cosmic Force
Each of our bodies is unique. The UltraSimple diet is a way to discover what foods your body needs and what foods it rejects. It is looking more and more that our choice of food is an esoteric choice, that the foods we eat have a direct affect on our ability to do the Work.
The goal of the Work is to become masters of ourselves, to form the individual I that will permit us to really BE, to SEE and to DO in this world. I see no better way of alleviating the suffering in this world than working on ourselves so that we have something Real to offer. If what I am saying is correct, then it seems to me that choosing a vegetarian diet to alleviate the suffering of animals, if your body needs the proteins from animals, is a way of getting distracted from efforts that will lead to Real change, the possibility of alleviating suffering on the most profound level, into efforts that lead to illusory change and an immediate sense of self-satisfaction that are harmful in the long run.
Dingo, you assume there is a violation of free will in eating meat. But let me ask, while we are still machines, do we have free will? Is the decision to be a vegetarian made while we are still machines an exercise in free will, or is it some form of do-gooder programme?
BTW, I didn't get the feeling you touched a few nerves here at all. But you seem very sensitive on this topic.
It sounds like this is a question that is eating at you, so to speak. You seem to be upset when you write:
You could also look at this from the point of view of free will. People are pointing you to places where these questions have been discussed before so that you can read the discussion and come to your own conclusion, that is, exercise your free will (if you or I or anyone has free will while we're still machines :) ).
The goal of the Work is to become masters of ourselves, to form the individual I that will permit us to really BE, to SEE and to DO in this world. I see no better way of alleviating the suffering in this world than working on ourselves so that we have something Real to offer. If what I am saying is correct, then it seems to me that choosing a vegetarian diet to alleviate the suffering of animals, if your body needs the proteins from animals, is a way of getting distracted from efforts that will lead to Real change, the possibility of alleviating suffering on the most profound level, into efforts that lead to illusory change and an immediate sense of self-satisfaction that are harmful in the long run.
Dingo, you assume there is a violation of free will in eating meat. But let me ask, while we are still machines, do we have free will? Is the decision to be a vegetarian made while we are still machines an exercise in free will, or is it some form of do-gooder programme?
BTW, I didn't get the feeling you touched a few nerves here at all. But you seem very sensitive on this topic.
It sounds like this is a question that is eating at you, so to speak. You seem to be upset when you write:
Dingo said:
You could also look at this from the point of view of free will. People are pointing you to places where these questions have been discussed before so that you can read the discussion and come to your own conclusion, that is, exercise your free will (if you or I or anyone has free will while we're still machines :) ).
tridean
Jedi Master
Heimdallr said:
Thx, did read through parts of that thread. Are you aware of where I can find information regarding the blood types to eating lifestyles. For example, I am O+, I'd like to read up on this further. EDIT. it is ok, I found this http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10269.0
a friend of mine said a similar thingD Rusak said:
tridean
Jedi Master
Galahad said:
Yes, you are right. I have found myself becoming more and more frustrated with basically everything. My apologies to all. I wouldn't say that the question of whether or not to eat meat per se is 'eating at me', in fact, I am seriously considering taking it up again, what I think is eating at me is that it takes so much effort just to sift through mountains of information to make a decision about something. I also think that at times, like the 'throwing of ISOTM across the room' can happen to some when reading it, it can be a similar type reaction to such things as 'smoking'. You know, how did most here react to that sort of information? I might add here, that I used to smoke, but only when I drank. It used to annoy the hell out of my Dad who couldn't work out how someone could do that. But what stopped me smoking when I wasn't drinking was the foul taste. for some reason, they didn't taste as bad when I was drinking. I actually like the taste of cigars.
Anyway, I apologize once again.
henry
The Cosmic Force
Dingo, I think we all go through moments like you are describing. It can be very frustrating at times. Yes, there is a lot of info out there to be digested. (Geez, more eating metaphors... :P ) It can be overwhelming. But keep in mind that you can't master all of this in one sitting. Don't bite off more than you can chew. Take it in small doses...
In other words, keep at it steadily, a bit each day. Yes, the members of the forum can help and offer support, but we can't do the chewing and digesting.
And the Éiriú Eolas breathing programme can really help when you are feeling frustrated. :)
In other words, keep at it steadily, a bit each day. Yes, the members of the forum can help and offer support, but we can't do the chewing and digesting.
And the Éiriú Eolas breathing programme can really help when you are feeling frustrated. :)