Israel-Palestine War: Hamas Breaks Out of Gaza, Israel Responds With Genocide

[Mari]

I don't have the energy to be stressed out atm, depressed: yes. definitely

I think that one of the things that would help you is that you open your thread and simply pour your thoughts and feelings and network about them so we can help you sort out your feelings and (hopefully) help you to cope and to live through this horror. Just simply start writing, don´t reread it afterward as you might have second thoughts on what to leave or not in the post - and just post it.

 

[Niall]

Very good. As we say in Spanish: he has c...nes!

Does he though? He is not helping the situation, IMO, he is inflaming it. He is not expressing justified outrage at the Israeli govt, or even Israeli society at large, or even pro-Zionist 'international' Jews. What Grzegorz Braun did is actual anti-Semitism: denigrating religious symbols common to all Jews. The amalgamation of Zionism with Judaism is what the Powers That Be want in order to shield Israel's actions from international criticism.

In his speech to parliament afterwards, explaining his actions, Braun justified it by claiming that Hanukkah was a "talmudic, satanic ritual." Certainly, there are things in the Jews' scriptures that appear to be that way, just as there are in the Koran and the Bible. Anyone can find such content, but can they then cite them as justification for publicly insulting their religion?

Anyway, in this specific case, Hanukkah, you'd be hard pressed to find a 'satanic' essence (or even aspect) to the festival.

Hanukkah - Wikipedia

 

[loreta]

Does he though? He is not helping the situation, IMO, he is inflaming it. He is not expressing justified outrage at the Israeli govt, or even Israeli society at large, or even pro-Zionist 'international' Jews. What Grzegorz Braun did is actual anti-Semitism: denigrating religious symbols common to all Jews. The amalgamation of Zionism with Judaism is what the Powers That Be want in order to shield Israel's actions from international criticism.

In his speech to parliament afterwards, explaining his actions, Braun justified it by claiming that Hanukkah was a "talmudic, satanic ritual." Certainly, there are things in the Jews' scriptures that appear to be that way, just as there are in the Koran and the Bible. Anyone can find such content, but can they then cite them as justification for publicly insulting their religion?

Anyway, in this specific case, Hanukkah, you'd be hard pressed to find a 'satanic' essence (or even aspect) to the festival.

Hanukkah - Wikipedia

I agree after all of what you say. You are right. My temperament made that I enjoy the situation, and at a certain point I understand that maybe he was angry. I didn't know about his discourse after that. And yes, we have to respect any religion. Thanks to open my eyes!

 

[luc]

Does he though? He is not helping the situation, IMO, he is inflaming it. He is not expressing justified outrage at the Israeli govt, or even Israeli society at large, or even pro-Zionist 'international' Jews. What Grzegorz Braun did is actual anti-Semitism: denigrating religious symbols common to all Jews. The amalgamation of Zionism with Judaism is what the Powers That Be want in order to shield Israel's actions from international criticism.

To be fair, the reason people resonate with this sort of thing is because it's infuriating that a tiny minority gets this special treatment, like having its holidays celebrated in official state buildings. Same thing in France, where Macron's invitation of rabbis to celebrate Hannukah at the Élysée sparked a huge debate about laïcité: state and religion are separated, except when it comes to the Jews! It's as if you had a Coptic Christmas at the president's palace or something.

Of course, the usual response is "but holocaust!" But this mindless worship of an event almost 100 years in the past seems completely out of touch and especially infuriating in light of Israel's actions today.

BUT, this doesn't mean it's a good idea to lean into Jew-hatred and get all triggered. Because that's exactly what those who design these sorts of dialectics want: People up in arms against each other, obsessed with an ethnic group as the ultimate enemy, Zionists being able to cry antisemitism once more, and so on. And if there's another anti-Jewish pogrom for real, then the cycle repeats: ordinary Jews suffer, patsies and useful idiots get punished, those responsible get away with it, and it will be used as further excuse to crack down on the population, restrict free speech, and justify atrocities.

 

[MJF]

When Russia-Ukraine war started, many Russian liberal intelligentsia (famous artists, journalists and the like) emigrated to Israel, because they "cannot live in a country which is at war with her neighbors". Their social media accounts were full of anti-war slogans, they presented themselves as pacifists who are just against the war in general. Needless to say that they blamed Russia for the war.

Since they emigrated to Israel, may I take it then that most, if not all, of these people were Jewish?

 

[Corvus]

I understand the principle that violence begets violence, but so does passivity in the presence of violent injustice, it turns equanimity into perpetuating abuse. And sometimes violence is the correct answer. There's dozens of examples this decade alone, Russia doesn't grow violent, it gets invaded by NATO, Syria doesn't get violent, it gets run over by NATO

There is an ancient saying: "If you want peace prepare for war", to consider otherwise is to deny reality of this world and pay the price of your family, city, culture, country, civilisation being destroyed.

 

[Siberia]

Since they emigrated to Israel, may I take it then that most, if not all, of these people were Jewish?

Most of them are of Russian-Jewish origin, they have both Russian and Jewish ancestors and/or they are married to someone of that origin.

 

[Niall]

I agree after all of what you say. You are right. My temperament made that I enjoy the situation, and at a certain point I understand that maybe he was angry. I didn't know about his discourse after that. And yes, we have to respect any religion. Thanks to open my eyes!

Not respect it, necessarily. After all, we have deconstructed every religion and every 'sacred cow' on Earth on this forum! Just beware of 'piling on', especially with this subject. We have seriously considered Islam to be 'fundamentally wrong', in this discussion for example, but came back around to accept that that religion's scriptures and practices comprise a similar mix of 'good' and 'bad' to the two other Abrahamic religions. If Islamist terrorists committed an atrocity tomorrow, you wouldn't cheer for a politician burning a copy of the Koran (unless of course, one wished to add chaotic energy to the situation).

In the end, we're confident that all mainstream religions are misguided, but we don't want to taunt their adherents about it.

 

[loreta]

Not respect it, necessarily. After all, we have deconstructed every religion and every 'sacred cow' on Earth on this forum! Just beware of 'piling on', especially with this subject. We have seriously considered Islam to be 'fundamentally wrong', in this discussion for example, but came back around to accept that that religion's scriptures and practices comprise a similar mix of 'good' and 'bad' to the two other Abrahamic religions. If Islamist terrorists committed an atrocity tomorrow, you wouldn't cheer for a politician burning a copy of the Koran (unless of course, one wished to add chaotic energy to the situation).

In the end, we're confident that all mainstream religions are misguided, but we don't want to taunt their adherents about it.

Thank you for your comments, Niall. I appreciated very much.

 

[sToRmR1dR]

Applause at UN as General Assembly votes to back Gaza ceasefire

The United Nations General Assembly has voted overwhelmingly in favour of a ceasefire in Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

13 Dec 2023

'Instigating war: Biden warns Netanyahu that ceasefire could create conditions for establishing Palestinian state.'

Israel losing support over ‘indiscriminate bombing’ – Biden

US President Joe Biden has warned that Israel risks losing support from allies if it continues its “indiscriminate bombing” campaign in Gaza

www.rt.com

13 Dec, 2023

[...]
Despite Biden's more critical comments to donors, elsewhere he has continued to voice staunch support for Israel’s military operation. During a White House event to mark the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah on Monday, he told attendees “I am a Zionist” while reiterating Washington’s “unshakable” commitment to Israel’s security.

Biden administration has no plans to restrict military aid to Israel, officials say

US officials say the Biden administration has no plans to place conditions on military aid to Israel.

www.presstv.ir

13 December 2023

[...]
“We’re not going to do a damn thing other than protect Israel in the process. Not a single thing,” said Biden while addressing Democratic donors in Washington.

Russia's Top Diplomat Lavrov: West Not Eager to Establish Palestinian State

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov that neither Israel nor its Western allies want Palestinians to establish an independent state in the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank on Wednesday.

sputnikglobe.com

6 hours ago (Updated: 6 hours ago)

Moscow outlines conditions for Middle East peace

Russia opposes any violation of Israel’s security, but also insists on the creation of the State of Palestine, Sergey Lavrov has said

www.rt.com

13 Dec, 2023

The Israeli military has started pumping seawater into the system of tunnels in Gaza, the Wall Street Journal reported.

Israel flooding Hamas tunnels – WSJ

The Israeli military has started to pump seawater into Hamas’ underground tunnel network in Gaza, the Wall Street Journal reported

www.rt.com

13 Dec, 2023

 

[Gwenllian]

It's a no. And I refuse to accept nuances. There is no place for nuances in this situation.

What can I do in the face of all this? In the face of this pain, this wound, this madness? Pray, cry, feel sorrow and at the same time thank the Universe that we are capable of saying NO, that I am capable of loving again. That I am able to look at the destruction of Gaza my eyes very open, my eyes clean.

As HARRISON KOEHLI says so well in one of his magnificent articles: "I think that the dark and light battle is starting to be very easily perceived and it requires you to line up."

I was thinking of an article that was published on SOTT NINE years ago and it makes the same important points as you made above:

The "Middle Ground" Fallacy in Gaza

I had a discussion on Facebook recently over the Gaza conflict. I was posting about the horrific abuses of Israel, he was countering with the supposed equal abuses of Hamas. After we traded points a few times I came to see where our difference of...

www.sott.net

Again, we see here a psychopathic agenda played out on the world stage. There is no middle ground in this situation. Innocent civilians are held in an open air prison, their food metered out by the calorie, denied access to building materials, educational materials, all the things we take for granted in daily life, and then attacked and killed without provocation (say what you will about Hamas rockets, however ineffective, the civilians have done nothing to provoke these attacks). These are actions not informed by human conscience.

Unfortunately, as we watch actions play out on the world stage, one fundamental flaw in correctly understanding these events lies in the belief that we are dealing with the actions of human beings. We automatically assume that 'They're like us. They have their biases and blind spots, but at the core they can be reasoned with and a resolution can be reached.' But we're not dealing with human beings. What we're observing on the world stage are the actions of psychopaths. Not drawn along racial lines, as many racist philosophical tenets would have you believe, but lines of power.

[...]

How many dead civilians will it take before we realize that the people in charge are the cause here? We can't expect human actions of conscience from those who don't possess one. So let's all stop waiting for a solution from that particular source.

My friend and I ended our interaction on civil enough terms, but he remains convinced that the truth lies in the middle ground. There is no middle ground when it comes to the Israel-Gaza conflict. There never is when you're dealing with psychopaths. Because in the end, it's not about a battle between Israel and Hamas, it's about psychopaths versus thinking, feeling human beings. With the middle ground fallacy so firmly embedded in my friend's thinking, he'll probably never see the truth about what's going on on the big blue marble. And in this day and age, that's a dangerous position to be in, as is made clear in this extremely important book.

 

[Windmill knight]

I went over to Facebook to see if Jordan Peterson had 'seen the light' on this issue (he's blocked me on Twitter 'X'), and to my dissapointment, he hasn't. I thought that he would have at least understood that the didn't know enough on the topic so he should better keep quiet. But instead, 18,000 deaths later, he chose to write this article:

Anti-Semitism and the PostModern MetaMarxists​

Pro-Hamas protests: Victims, victimizers and sanctimonious psychopaths

Well, he is already wrong from the title. Pro-Palestinian demonstrations are not 'anti-semitic' nor 'pro-Hamas'. It's easy to see that the vast majority of the world population is upset because civilians, and mostly women and children, are being murdered in the thousands. But apparently that's just too hard to understand for Dr P. Cause it's the Postmodern MetaMarxists! (whatever that is) Nothing to do with genocide! And the real victims as always are the Jews! I couldn't stomach reading the whole thing so I mostly skimmed over it. But one thing is for sure, he is still on board with the idea that everyone is to blame - especially the left and Iran - except Israel.

I guess I should have just gotten over it, but it really upsets me that a person I considered to be among the brightest and wisest of our era has become such a fool.

I think a really good response to his dodging-the-issue mental gymnastics is this tweet by Caitlin Johnstone:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1717706148831191147

 

[MK Scarlett]

I was thinking of an article that was published on SOTT NINE years ago and it makes the same important points as you made above:

The "Middle Ground" Fallacy in Gaza

I had a discussion on Facebook recently over the Gaza conflict. I was posting about the horrific abuses of Israel, he was countering with the supposed equal abuses of Hamas. After we traded points a few times I came to see where our difference of...

www.sott.net

That one was translated and published on French Sott, in case francophone readers want to read it:

Le sophisme du « juste milieu » à Gaza​

And here is the same excerpt than the one shared by @Gwenllian:

À nouveau, nous voyons ici un agenda psychopathique manifestée sur la scène mondiale. Il n'y a pas de juste milieu dans cette situation. Des civils innocents sont maintenus dans une prison à ciel ouvert, leur nourriture rationnée à la calorie, l'accès refusé au matériel de construction, aux fournitures éducatives, toutes les choses que nous tenons pour acquises dans la vie de tous les jours, et ensuite, attaqués et tués sans provocation (dites ce que vous voudrez sur les rockets du Hamas, inefficace néanmoins, les civils n'ont rien fait pour provoquer ces attaques). Ce sont des actions non guidées par la conscience humaine.

Malheureusement, alors que nous regardons les agissements qui se déroulent sur la scène mondiale, un défaut fondamental à la compréhension juste de ces évènements se trouve dans la croyance que nous parlons d'agissements d'êtres humains. Nous supposons automatiquement « qu'ils sont comme nous. Ils ont leurs défauts et points aveugles, mais que dans le fond, ils peuvent être raisonnés et une solution peut être atteinte. » Mais nous ne parlons pas d'êtres humains. Ce que nous observons sur la scène mondiale sont les agissements de psychopathes. Non pas enchaînés suivant des lignes racistes, comme beaucoup de principes philosophiques racistes voudraient que vous croyiez, mais des lignes de pouvoir.

[...]

Combien de civils morts cela nécessitera avant que nous réalisions que les personnes au pouvoir sont la cause ici ? Nous ne pouvons pas attendre des actions humaines remplies de conscience de ceux qui n'en possèdent pas. Ainsi, n'attendons plus pour une solution de cette source particulière.

Mon ami et moi avons terminé notre échange en des termes assez civils, mais il reste convaincu que la vérité se trouve dans le juste milieu. Il n'y a pas de juste milieu lorsqu'on en vient au conflit Israël-Palestine. Il n'y en a jamais lorsque vous parlez avec des psychopathes. Parce qu'à la fin, il ne s'agît pas de la bataille entre Israël et le Hamas, il s'agit des psychopathes contre des êtres humains pensant, ressentant. Avec l'erreur du juste milieu si fermement ancrée dans la pensée de mon ami, il ne verra probablement jamais la vérité concernant ce qui se passe sur la grande boule bleue. De nos jours, c'est une position dangereuse à tenir, comme il est expliqué dans ce livre extrêmement important.

 

[mkrnhr]

It's tiring to repeat what's been clarified many times, Zionism does not equate Judaism. That this confusion is still pushed by the Western elites is highly suspicious. At the surface level, it serves shielding Israel's (and the US regime's) crimes from criticism in the West (exploiting WWII guilt) behind the old "antisemitism" accusation, but the other face of the coin is that they associate all Jews, whether they support Israel or not, with Israel's crimes, whether they like it or not. It is super identity politics on an another level. They deny that Jews can have personal opinions and thoughts, which in a way, is very antisemitic. Not only that, but torturing and killing the Palestinian population, which is Semitic, is also antisemitic.

 

[SOTTREADER]

My impression of Dekel's posts, FWIW, is he tries to take the high road by framing things from an idealistic perspective.

I haven't seen that he can fully embody the position of Palestine to understand they are oppressed (and what this would mean) and I do not think he fully acknowledges the role of the false flags from the Zionist side. I think it's understandable though given he lives in Israel. He'd be putting himself in a less than ideal situation if he was seen as empathetic or a sympathiser to the "other" side and so he's left in this middle ground where he takes an idealistic stance.

These are just impressions purely based on my reading of Dekel's posts on this very specific issue, so fwiw.

I think the issue is a sensitive one.