What are your thoughts on having children?

[Starshine]

Hello friends,
Lys is having a really difficult time right now. Her urge to become a mother isn't fading away, quite the contrary, as times passes it seems to have even deeper effects on her. Here is her last contribution to this topic:

Thank you all for your contribution to help myself to have a better view on this topic.

Chu, thank you so much for your reply. Indeed, it helps.

That is something that comes to my mind every time I think about being parents with Starshine. This is why I felt very selfish for having this wish.
I just acknowledged not long ago that it was normal and that it was not wrong to have the desire to be a mother.
And this pain I could cause to a living being brings myself back to reality and to the fact that it is definitely not a good time to have a child. But I don't want to put the pain aside when thinking about it as it would not be right nor me being true to myself.


Yes you are very right as while I allow myself from time to time to imagine preparing myself for having a child, it always helps me to think about what I would have to do in order to be healthy, the house to be ready, the knowledge I must still gather and grow. That is the good side of the fact that now, I don't feel so much guilt about this wish. So it helps me to put it aside and go forward.
I guess I just have to find my path out, it is still a bit vague.

Moreover, I think that what I live currently, my sister-in-law living at our place since November with her two kids, helps me every day to know more about what I would like to develop and manifest as a "mother".
At least I know the kind of mother I don't want to be ! My sister-in-law is quite an example of it... But I'll stop here as I could get nasty on this topic.

Thank you again Chu, your post warmed my heart.


Thank you too Mililea.
You did what you had to do while you didn't know as much as now, and I think that's all at your credit.

I talked to my father about the topic of children, about the fact that Starshine and I would probably never have children. While he respects our decision he told me that for his part he really wanted children, a family and, that he made everything he could for my sister, my brother and me to be happy.
I think he was kind of justifying himself for having children, and I am not annoyed with him at all, on the contrary I thank him every time I can for what I have been able to experience so far the good and the bad, and I tried to reassure him as I am sure that he did his best and at this time he didn't know anything about what we are aware of today.

That's why as long as the global situation is as it is now, I would think that I would be very selfish to bring a human being on this world.
And maybe I met Starshine on his path and got interested on what he lived here on the forum before having the wish of having a child just because motherhood maybe not my lesson of this life.
As Chu said, I could use this "motherly" behavior toward another aim. And having your daughter is probably yours, and I am glad for you that your path brought you in here on time.

It's been building up these last weeks, and I feel...disarmed. I've been weirdly sick with stomach ache and diarrhea for a few days. I woke up this morning with a memorable nightmare, where I progressively discovered that she had betrayed me. After going in a ridiculous craze, the lasting feeling was that I definitely lost her. A bitter awakening.

It just reflects my true concerns, I think. It really is a complex issue and I can't really find an answer to that. Her urge is REALLY strong. She visualizes this child in every aspect of her life, and it's depressing her above any rational. This ultimate choice ends up in my hands, and it is not a comfortable position to be in.

Those last years have only confirmed my feelings, that I wish not such a psychopathic world to a child. I'm not overly impressed by the idea of being a father, but it seems like the worst time to give birth. Yet my desire to be a father is there, though nothing comparable to this visceral urge she is experiencing. And being in the setting we're in, in the countryside, living with my mother and stepfather, she can't help thinking it's the best set-up to have kids. My mother and stepfather wouldn't mind, to not say, would love it!

I certainly feel alone in this. There are many young kids surrounding us and I can see that it inevitably lead her to be reminded of her own desire. A desire that takes its toll in the form of guilt and pain. I fear that it becomes an endless loop of regrets over time, and that I might finally lose her because of my initial choice. Yet, when I balance things out, I really do not wish this society to a kid, how could I, seeing what I see?

This question leads to another, deeper one. If you don't want such a world to a kid, what is your drive to even continue to live in it? Many people become parents and instantly understand the meaning of sacrifice, strength to fight for life and for protecting their children. It gives them an enormous drive to keep going, whatever happens. I have convinced myself I could get there without having to be a father to experience it. I can become a man without becoming a father.

The signs of the times are grimmer and grimmer, and it's getting harder to predict any kind of future. The Cs say that change IS coming, that gives me faith that it will all crumble down and this leaves us with a room for contemplation on many levels, including raising kids in better circumstances. Meanwhile, the window of opportunity to become parents is getting thinner, as we are 32 and 34 years old, and I think that explains why Lys feels this urge more than ever. May she be appeased in some way or another.

There's the argument that there was never a good time to have children, and there have been darker times than this one we're living, I hear it and that makes me feel like a coward trying to avoid responsibilities, being doubtful till it's too late. I already feel like I missed something for not having found a way to earn more money than what I currently do, so that I could bring more independence to Lys, and my family. The rat-race has become a prep-race for the incoming turmoil ahead.

Thank you for reading, any comments would be appreciated.

 

[Palinurus]

Dear @Starshine and @Lys.

I understand you're plagued with the 'call of nature' which is to procreate. Given your age, that was to be expected. Also, that the urge to have children is becoming stronger while the physiological deadline for the female comes ever closer, is not really a surprise IMO.

No one can take this decision for you; you're on your own for this one - as it should be.

Having no children myself, I can't offer any advice either way except for saying I always have regretted that.. But I can tell you about my parents and their decision, and about the circumstances they found themselves in at that particular time.

My parents met each other in the Spring of 1940 on their way to Antwerp (Belgium) while both were separately on the run from where they lived (Breda, The Netherlands) to escape the German invasion troops at the beginning of WW II. They had never met before and they instantly liked each other very much.

After a courtship of a few years in very difficult circumstances, they decided to marry. Their preferred date was 4-4-44 but in a Roman Catholic environment this date being in the Holy Week (leading up to Easter) meant no weddings were possible, either civil or in the church. So they settled on a date a week later, on 11-4-44. My father was 25, my mother 23.

Together, they got seven children of which I was the first. They conceived of me in the week from 6-6-44 (D-Day) till 13-6-44 still being subject to the German occupation, and I was born on 13-3-45 a few months after their liberation by Polish, British and American troops. It was also the day that the then Queen Wilhelmina set foot on Dutch shores again after an exile of almost five years in London.

My parents never regretted having me or any of the other ones, and neither did I.

I hope this anecdotal information will be of any use to you. Good luck with reaching a joint decision.

 

[Jo Bugman]

Hello friends,
Lys is having a really difficult time right now. Her urge to become a mother isn't fading away, quite the contrary, as times passes it seems to have even deeper effects on her. Here is her last contribution to this topic:


It's been building up these last weeks, and I feel...disarmed. I've been weirdly sick with stomach ache and diarrhea for a few days. I woke up this morning with a memorable nightmare, where I progressively discovered that she had betrayed me. After going in a ridiculous craze, the lasting feeling was that I definitely lost her. A bitter awakening.

It just reflects my true concerns, I think. It really is a complex issue and I can't really find an answer to that. Her urge is REALLY strong. She visualizes this child in every aspect of her life, and it's depressing her above any rational. This ultimate choice ends up in my hands, and it is not a comfortable position to be in.

Those last years have only confirmed my feelings, that I wish not such a psychopathic world to a child. I'm not overly impressed by the idea of being a father, but it seems like the worst time to give birth. Yet my desire to be a father is there, though nothing comparable to this visceral urge she is experiencing. And being in the setting we're in, in the countryside, living with my mother and stepfather, she can't help thinking it's the best set-up to have kids. My mother and stepfather wouldn't mind, to not say, would love it!

I certainly feel alone in this. There are many young kids surrounding us and I can see that it inevitably lead her to be reminded of her own desire. A desire that takes its toll in the form of guilt and pain. I fear that it becomes an endless loop of regrets over time, and that I might finally lose her because of my initial choice. Yet, when I balance things out, I really do not wish this society to a kid, how could I, seeing what I see?

This question leads to another, deeper one. If you don't want such a world to a kid, what is your drive to even continue to live in it? Many people become parents and instantly understand the meaning of sacrifice, strength to fight for life and for protecting their children. It gives them an enormous drive to keep going, whatever happens. I have convinced myself I could get there without having to be a father to experience it. I can become a man without becoming a father.

The signs of the times are grimmer and grimmer, and it's getting harder to predict any kind of future. The Cs say that change IS coming, that gives me faith that it will all crumble down and this leaves us with a room for contemplation on many levels, including raising kids in better circumstances. Meanwhile, the window of opportunity to become parents is getting thinner, as we are 32 and 34 years old, and I think that explains why Lys feels this urge more than ever. May she be appeased in some way or another.

There's the argument that there was never a good time to have children, and there have been darker times than this one we're living, I hear it and that makes me feel like a coward trying to avoid responsibilities, being doubtful till it's too late. I already feel like I missed something for not having found a way to earn more money than what I currently do, so that I could bring more independence to Lys, and my family. The rat-race has become a prep-race for the incoming turmoil ahead.

Thank you for reading, any comments would be appreciated.

Hello Starshine. I'm not a parent myself and I am only 26yrs old, so I cannot give you the best input. I once dated a mother with a beautiful 6yr old daughter and two nieces, 4yrs and 6yrs old. I always had a strong desire to have children myself and spending time with these three little girls was a great experience, and personally I felt that it matured me greatly over the period.
I struggled with it as well, I would have loved to keep spending everyday with those kids - they can teach you so much about yourself - and the feeling of tucking her into bed at night with a goodnight kiss gave me a certain joy I could not find anywhere else. But at the same time I knew I would never be able to have that peaceful life. I felt like I would be abandoning my desire to continue the work. I thought to myself how much my life would change if I had someone that was entirely and solely dependent on me and how it would, unfortunately, limit my choices.
A few years ago, I might have gladly started a family, but now I feel very different. I understand more of the open-air prison we are living in as cattle for higher density citizens. I wonder how I could look my child in the eye knowing that.
But on the other hand, would a soul not choose to come here if they did not have something to learn from it? Perhaps by bringing another into the world you are giving them a chance to learn, but there is also a lot of pain in life, and can't imagine having to watch my child suffer with the coming food shortages and weather changes. Plus, the toll it would take on the mother; the potential for injuries or issues with breastfeeding, caring for the home and the child (assuming she does not work).
Maybe it simply comes down to: can you handle it? Are you in a position to provide for your family AND the addition of a newborn baby AND continue to work on yourself? Others and myself can give endless advice and suggestions mixed with warnings of possibilities, but in the end it will be your choice. I do not think there are any wrong choices, every choice can give us something we can learn from. To paraphrase Gurdjieff from ISOTM: a person's best environment to do the work is the one he is currently living in. Maybe having a child will help you to struggle against yourself and to learn, or maybe it will destroy you (not to be too morbid). It is a difficult decision and truly hope you both can find the answer .

 

[Alejo]

Well guys,

I believe the choice is yours, both of you, and I think that's where the key to your current situation lies. And being quite frank, if one of you really wants it and the other doesn't, then it would be unfair either way, specially for the child. I know it's not a pleasant thing to read, but I daresay you're both probably aware of it by now. That is, having a child with an unwilling partner, or asking the one partner to sacrifice that desire, there's no easy way to navigate it. But it is not impossible.

I don't mean to discount what you're feeling, it's natural and normal, it isn't wrong. But I do hope to manage to put it in context so that maybe you guys will gain some perspective, our wish for children is inevitable and it's written into our DNA, we're designed to procreate and as such, the feelings are normal. But I think one ought to be aware of the origin of the feelings, and the romantic ideas about being a parent and how they're tainted by this chemistry and the urges follow that.

I am not saying that being a parent isn't rewarding, or a beautiful experience that most parents I know wouldn't change for any other, it is truly irreplaceable. But most parents will also tell you the pain and suffering that comes from it, it's incomparable. But seeing it as purely beautiful should probably make you ponder about its origin, and focusing on only the positive aspects of it should give you pause.

Again I don't mean to sound dismissive, but we're designed in such a way as to be able to trick ourselves with deep conviction, and perhaps the trick would be to at least not make a life changing choice without being aware of this fact.

Now, I have seen individuals who have transformed after becoming a father, but at the same time I've seen and met individuals for whom being a parent was simply an urge and did not change at all. So, the idea that the change comes from without is incorrect I think, and the idea that only through a certain specific experience will one achieve maturity, is also misplaced. Much like the Work, it may be practiced everywhere. Conditions and situations may present you with opportunity for growth, but it still has to be chosen.

I don't want to say to counteract the romantic ideas of being a parent, per se, but rather contextualize them and add detail to them. A few doses of reality might carry you through. Is it a desire to be parents together? or simply a desire to be a parent regardless, I think that question matters, if it hasn't been asked.

Having said the above, the urge and that love one has to offer a child isn't going away anytime soon, but it doesn't have to be expressed in a single situation. I am just finishing up a novel in which the idea is explored, interestingly enough, and it's a teacher who pours her love into her students, not bitterly but simply because of the recognition of it being able to go somewhere. So, she sacrificed her own wishes for a greater good and in turn, she became who she was meant to be, but without denying herself her own motherly nature.

So, maybe it would be a good idea to think about these places where a motherly nature or a fatherly one could go? Just a thought.

I think I mentioned it before, and you guys seem to be aware of it, but the way it seems to me is that whatever choice you guys make, it'll be selfish. Whatever choice you guys make, it'll bring with it gain but also sacrifice, beauty and ugliness, joy and sorrow. But the choice remains yours in the end.

And I think that's the core of what I was trying to say, whichever choice you guys make, I hope it's as conscious as possible.

 

[Michael B-C]

I am not saying that being a parent isn't rewarding, or a beautiful experience that most parents I know wouldn't change for any other, it is truly irreplaceable. But most parents will also tell you the pain and suffering that comes from it, it's incomparable. But seeing it as purely beautiful should probably make you ponder about its origin, and focusing on only the positive aspects of it should give you pause.

This from Alejo pretty much nails it for me Starshine. Nobody knows what being a parent is like - or how you and/or Lys will react - until it happens. And that 'happening' is a long, life altering process over many many years that is challenged at all times by the very particular individual who chooses to come into your life. I think few prospective parents actually take the time to step back from their emotions and look closely at themselves, each other as a couple, and the prevailing circumstances around them, so as to honestly and forensically examine their desires to bring new life forth from the perspective of that child, rather tending to see it as solely their right, their experience, their gift. Simply put, what's in it long term for the child? Right now I would argue your world is not a good place to willfully bring a child into, period. As for yourselves as prospective parents only you and Lys can answer that. But a child is not a right; its a duty and a humbling sacrifice of self and it can - and does - find out all your fault lines (particularly between the parents). Are you both read to fail nearly all the time? In this contaminated environment you also have no idea who or what will come down the pipe to you. Are you both ready for a total disruption of your life, day in day out, with nowhere to hide? Is your relationship strong enough to withstand that additional intense pressure at this most stressful time? So, if you are not ready to give, give, give and suffer, suffer, suffer, then don't, don't, don't. That's my tuppence from a parent who regrets nothing.

 

[Gwenllian]

Perhaps the knowledge that things will become increasingly difficult triggers women's need to procreate in the face of death and suffering even more so now. I don't know, I am just throwing it out there.

For years I have wondered why African parents continue to have so many kids even if it is clear that there are few jobs out there, that hunger, war, disease, terrorism and famine are always looming and still the birth rate is going strong and the continent's population continues to grow exponentially AFAIK. Someone once told me (he came from Mali) that parents usually have many kids, in the hopes that one kid will turn out okay and be able to take care of his parents when they get older. We used to have very large families here as well, I knew a few of them when I was young.

However, knowing what we know here could override any strong emotions and ingrained and instinctive needs. What I am trying to say is: we are more than our instincts even if our biological clock is ticking, but it's not easy to look at this situation as objectively as we can since we have to deal with our hormones and (childhood) history on the one hand and our capacity for objective thought on the other. [Added: I have been there, done that etc. At the time I wasn't capable of critical thinking. My hormones and history completely overruled me, so I just had my kids without thinking of THEM and their life situation.]

I don't know whether this is helpful, but these are just a few thoughts that came to mind. Anyway, whatever you both decide, I hope it will be a mutual decision and I wish you both all the best.

 

[jhonny]

In theory, bringing a child to this world should be an act of love, sacrifice, conscientious decision and other unselfish and altruistic qualities, but the reality is that all the above, in many cases, is not true, taking into account that many of us come from narcissistic and/or dysfunctional families without being aware of it. So, when we think about making a decision like this, there are many factors to have in mind, but mostly our self consciousness which is directly related to our environment, our past, who we want to be in the future, and how it all relates to the child we want to bring to this world. I know it isn't easy, but It's up to you.

In any case, I really hope whichever decision you make, it will be the right one, and one that make you (both of you) stronger as human being.

 

[Maya]

Here is a little what JP says about having kids wich I agree.
They give you opportunity to relive some special moments,
to relearn and to heal if you are at least 'half' ready.

But they also give you instant connection with your traumas and frustrations like you can't imagine.
BUT ! The relationship with your child would definitly be the most profound and meaningful bond you'll ever make with anyone.
So that's both good and bad.

But I must also agree with what Michael said because that's basic.

Simply put, what's in it long term for the child? Right now I would argue your world is not a good place to willfully bring a child into, period. As for yourselves as prospective parents only you and Lys can answer that. But a child is not a right; its a duty and a humbling sacrifice of self and it can - and does - find out all your fault lines (particularly between the parents). Are you both read to fail nearly all the time? In this contaminated environment you also have no idea who or what will come down the pipe to you. Are you both ready for a total disruption of your life, day in day out, with nowhere to hide? Is your relationship strong enough to withstand that additional intense pressure at this most stressful time? So, if you are not ready to give, give, give and suffer, suffer, suffer, then don't, don't, don't.

Cause once when he /she is here there is no way back.
That's probably the most shocking 'bite of reality' after few days.

Also do not forget the Cass mentioned 'darker times' coming and that this standstill period we'll remember
like sort of rest before the finals.

So, good luck what ever you decide together. Hugs !

 

[Oxajil]

Hi Starshine, you've already received great input, so here are just my 2 cents:

This ultimate choice ends up in my hands, and it is not a comfortable position to be in.

If I understand correctly, Lys has already more or less made up her mind and now she's awaiting your decision, and if you choose not to have children, a part of you fears that Lys may leave you at some point or that it would maybe cause difficulties in the future (such as regret or bitterness). It does sound complicated. While, I'd think, there can be much joy in having a child, it also comes with many challenges as others have pointed out.

Besides the state of the world and your own programs, also consider: Increased prices of baby products, children vax and booster mandates, (genetic) disease, education (public school or homeschooled, and if homeschooled, how will you ensure social interaction with peers), etc. It'd be a challenge for sure! In addition, you'll have four adults in the same house looking after your child, and each of you may have your own idea of how to raise a child! So, that'd be something to keep in mind as well and to discuss if you were to have a baby.

I think if you can work on yourselves even harder on a daily basis and have the resources to have a child, and you both decide to go for it, I wouldn't go for it out of fear for your relationship (you) or because you think time is running out or fear of missing out (Lys), but out of love for wanting to raise a child together. You wrote that Lys visualized the child in every aspect of her life, but visualizations/expectations may not reflect reality once the child is there. So, I think if you guys decide to go for it, I'd not anticipate any certain outcomes that may be too rose-colored.

I don't have any children myself, but people around me have, it can be rewarding but also very challenging. So, FWIW!

I certainly feel alone in this. There are many young kids surrounding us and I can see that it inevitably lead her to be reminded of her own desire. A desire that takes its toll in the form of guilt and pain.

If wanting to have a child causes a lot of guilt and pain in you, Lys, then it may not be the right time to have a child. Maybe the guilt and pain you feel is an indication that there's a part of you that isn't ready to bring a child to this world. But I also understand your desire to want to raise a child, I think women generally have a lot of love and care to give, and maybe you think that you need to pour that affection and care towards a baby, when maybe that energy can be used in other ways. So, I wonder what you have tried so far. Have you tried volunteer work? Maybe something with children? Maybe pour more love towards something you enjoy doing and want to see flourish, something that could also benefit others? Maybe try some things out and see if it helps you with your strong desire?

If you both decide not to have a child, then it may be helpful to write down the reasons why and have it on you, so you can remind yourself whenever that desire pops up again and you start feeling regret.

I fear that it becomes an endless loop of regrets over time, and that I might finally lose her because of my initial choice. Yet, when I balance things out, I really do not wish this society to a kid, how could I, seeing what I see?

If that is how you feel, then you may already have your answer. We don't know how the distant future will look like or be like. Maybe circumstances will get better at some point, but then as you said, it may be too late for you to have children. But you could always adopt at that point, if the desire is still great. Who knows, maybe it'd still be possible to get pregnant then. Though, I do think that if you both decide not to have children, that it's important to be okay with the fact if it never happens in this lifetime. Maybe it will, but if it won't, that's okay too. Assuming that we have souls and have lived many lives before this one, certainly we have had kids in our past lives. So you probably have experienced most of the ins and outs of parenthood, the beauty of it and the more painful aspects of it. So I don't think you will necessarily miss out on anything if you both decide not to have children. And let's say there's a soul who wants to reincarnate to be your child, and if that opportunity doesn't open up for him or for her, it may still happen at some point in 'time' or 'place', maybe just not in this lifetime. I'm just throwing out all kinds of possibilities in case it helps!

 

[Chu]

I think you have received excellent advice, Starshine. It's definitely not an easy situation to be in, and I really wish the world was different sometimes, but we have to see and accept what IS.

The decision is yours, and be reassured that nobody here will judge you either way.

But what strikes me the most is that you don't seem to be united in this. IF you could sit down and listen, really LISTEN to each other and communicate, and EXPLAIN, both the wishes and the fears, both the longing and more realistic expectations, and if you can be certain of your love for each other being stronger than possible obstacles down the road, then you would be better armed to decide. But as it is now, it seems to me that perhaps you haven't been fully honest with each other, or are playing subtle games, and therefore, whether your decision is yes or no, one or the other of you will likely breed resentment.

Ideally, a decision such as this one should not be made (or not made) under pressure, but out of love, with as much awareness and knowledge as possible, and with you two striving to be better human beings, no matter the circumstances, and being honest about the sacrifices you are sincerely willing to make. It may be difficult to face and even consider, but you may also have to question whether you really want to share your path together or not depending on the decision, and what is most important to you as individuals and as a couple. Or so I think.

Simply put, perhaps you could benefit from having a very difficult conversation, in which you commit to getting to the TRUTH of the matter, not just desires, drives, expectations, fears, etc, in the hopes of doing what is RIGHT. If you can do that (and it may take more than one conversation), then hopefully you'll know the best course of action to take. FWIW!

 

[Starshine]

Thank you all for your insightful and considerate comments. We are discussing it all in a painful process.

I actually have never been ambiguous about my unwillingness to have children since we are together, and yesterday I woke up with this recall from within. Navigating this emotional turmoil, I am really trying my best to envision the positive aspects of such a possibility, but it feels like a feather facing a mercury can on a weighing scale. I can't help but think it would be mean to bring a new being to this world. Mean is really the word that sticks out to me. Apart from the obvious societal reasons, my personal experience as a child might play a role in it.

She heard it from the get go, but kept some form of hope to change my perspectives while denying her own desire, which grew over time as she sees me as the father she wants for her children. This is how I feel regarding her too, she would be the one, fantastic mother. She might have perceived it not as set in stone as said, and is now realizing the implications of it all. It is such an abyssal pain that she feels like she could be crying forever, and it robs her life force and enthusiasm. That's how I fear losing her, not in any other way. I don't know how to help her except for being present, listening and communicating as much as possible.

She is faced with many confronting feelings which points out to an existential crisis. She feels weak, egoist and enslaved by this. I don't know if calling it "desire" or "urge" is the best way to describe such an experience, it might be a bit reductive and materialistic to explain what seems to be touching her straight to the bone. It is primal in a sense, but just like the alpha male narrative, I feel like it's a bit of a simplistic explanation. I might be wrong. The advices given to redirect that to something else are confronting her with her inability to do so at the moment.

 

[Michael B-C]

Meanwhile, the window of opportunity to become parents is getting thinner, as we are 32 and 34 years old, and I think that explains why Lys feels this urge more than ever.

Thinking about this dilemma from another, purely and even clinically logistical perspective:

1. 32 and 34 (with my understanding being that you are the younger) means that potentially you still both have a number of years of fertility ahead of you (for example my wife gave birth to our first at 39 and I can assure you I was nowhere near ready to be a dad at 32, taking until 39 myself to be much more so). So why the intense pressure now? Its amazing how permanent a feeling can be one year only to vanish or become reconciled by the next. Do you both see this as an all or nothing now issue (which may suggest that in some way this is more about your relationship than a child - and how many people make the ultimate mistake of thinking a child will solve the real, hidden issue between the parents!) or are you both willing to remain open and flexible going forward?

2. Have either of you undertaken any tests to ascertain your mutual states of fertility? I know so many people who just assumed it would happen only to discover after years of mounting stress that one or either had serious issues with their fertility. This is no joke and can destroy otherwise happy couples.

3. As a couple do you have a plan for how you would financially and structurally support yourselves going forward and for many years to come? Has this even been addressed e.g. is there an unspoken expectation that you would become the full time breadwinner for 3 for many, many years ahead whilst Lys becomes a full time mother/carer?

Finding out such hard-nosed information does not mean you then have to inevitably proceed to any next stage (and one or either - or both - might get a shock by what they find out). But without it, you are both flying blindly on assumptions. Maybe taking such practical steps first would at least bring you together on the subject whilst also bringing you both down to earth, for good or ill.

 

[Sybil]

I do not see right or wrong to being a parent. The way I see it, it is only another lesson. Some people need to experience it, while others don't. Some souls want to be born now, while others don't. As I expressed in another thread, being a parent, was the ultimate lesson to me. Love unconditionally, then let it go unconditionally, but this is my lesson. Those people who choose not to have children choose to experience different types of lessons this lifetime. One thing is for sure. No one should live with shame, guilt, or fear regarding to parenthood. Yes, the upcoming times seem to be more than bumpy, but what if many many parents and children have to experience this? We all choose our lessons before we incarnate. Some people choose to work on themselves instead of being parents. Nothing wrong with this. It is not selfish not to have children. It is not selfish to have children. As long as we actually learn the lessons we should in this lifetime, nothing wrong with these decisions. We came here to learn and some people's lessons include and involve being a parent. My lesson certainly did. I loved my daughter unconditionally, then I understand in a hard way, that she is who she is. I have never been hurt by another so many times and in so many different ways as I was hurt by my daughter. She exposed all my weaknesses and threw them into my face with the strong underline, that my weaknesses damaged her. I learned, that I am fallible. In this life, I choose to learn my own flaws this way. I died so many times, then I resurrected. I learned something. When I had my son, I knew all of this already. Would he do the same? I don't know. I still love him unconditionally. He wanted to be born as my son. We have lessons to learn together.

 

[KJS]

I'd like to add my life experience to the excellent points made by @Michael B-C.

1. 32 and 34 (with my understanding being that you are the younger) means that potentially you still both have a number of years of fertility ahead of you (for example my wife gave birth to our first at 39 and I can assure you I was nowhere near ready to be a dad at 32, taking until 39 myself to be much more so). So why the intense pressure now? Its amazing how permanent a feeling can be one year only to vanish or become reconciled by the next. Do you both see this as an all or nothing now issue (which may suggest that in some way this is more about your relationship than a child - and how many people make the ultimate mistake of thinking a child will solve the real, hidden issue between the parents!) or are you both willing to remain open and flexible going forward?

My wife was 41 when she got pregnant (naturally), and gave birth at 42 (also naturally). We've been told, that pregnancy at that age is systemically discouraged because woman at that age poses a greater burden on the social system in the context of maternity leave. It may be, that the perception of "running out of time" is imposed by society.

2. Have either of you undertaken any tests to ascertain your mutual states of fertility? I know so many people who just assumed it would happen only to discover after years of mounting stress that one or either had serious issues with their fertility. This is no joke and can destroy otherwise happy couples.

From what I see, a lot of my friends are having big problems with fertility. It certainly is not easy as it seems, especially in stressful times and highly processed foods.

3. As a couple do you have a plan for how you would financially and structurally support yourselves going forward and for many years to come? Has this even been addressed e.g. is there an unspoken expectation that you would become the full time breadwinner for 3 for many, many years ahead whilst Lys becomes a full time mother/carer?

This is a really deep question composed of many (with no upper bound) questions, especially for people that have a more clear perception of the state of our world. Do you want to fully vaccinate your kid? If so, there might be no chances for public kindergarten. Do you want to homeschool your kid? It might be very time-consuming. What will happen when a kid will get sick (and it will happen a lot, especially in kindergarten)? Are you at a point in your career that will allow you to take a lot of sick leaves for family care?

 

[jess]

All the best to you Starshine and Lys in whatever your decision may be, a hug to both of you.

I have the experience of my only daughter and at least one thing I would like to share is some questions:
-What are the policies or conditions to receive medical care currently during and at the birth of a child, surely it varies from country to country or locality?
-Could it be mandatory to have the covid vaccine, or according to the shortage of employees and resources, could it be complicated to receive adequate medical care?
-Also what could be the resistance of newborns to the strong viral activity in which we live nowadays?
I had a great pregnancy at 37 years old, but I had a terrible experience with the doctors and the hospital here in the area where I live. thank you for sharing your concerns, just to share about what could be the health-safety conditions for the mother during pregnancy and birth, or the infancy of a child today?

All the best to you two on your journey together,