What are your thoughts on having children?

[Alejo]

I think Chu has put it best, you need to have an honest conversation and make a decision, as consciously as possible. it will be very difficult though, but it's necessary, as if you don't, things will start to stagnate at a point, I daresay.

She is faced with many confronting feelings which points out to an existential crisis. She feels weak, egoist and enslaved by this. I don't know if calling it "desire" or "urge" is the best way to describe such an experience, it might be a bit reductive and materialistic to explain what seems to be touching her straight to the bone. It is primal in a sense, but just like the alpha male narrative, I feel like it's a bit of a simplistic explanation. I might be wrong. The advices given to redirect that to something else are confronting her with her inability to do so at the moment.

No, I don't think you're wrong, I do think that it shouldn't be denied that it is an urge and a desire, and that there's nothing wrong with that. Every emotion, specially those generated by being a parent I think, do have a very physical level. There is a spiritual and deeper level that transcends physicality for sure, but that does not make it immaterial.

And so, what I was aiming at was that it's good not to forget this dimension of ones desires and drives, so as to be able to keep ones feet on the ground. Put another way perhaps, loving someone passes through physical attraction, it goes beyond it, but it certainly passes through it, it's just the way things are. A physical dimension being a part of it, does not deny the deeper possibilities of any experience I think.

Or feeling sad after eating something that inflames you, the sadness feels way deeper, but there's a physical dimension that ought to be factored in. Although I realize I am overextending myself with analogies, I hope the point is clear.

 

[Ant22]

Starshine, I think the most important thing you need to do now is make a decision of your own and fully own it. Not cave in to Lys' emotional appeals and give her what she wants in order to keep her, and not forego parenthood because many people on the forum have done this for reasons similar to yours. This would delegate the responsibility that should be yours to either Lys or the forum. But make a decision and accept that whatever difficulties you, Lys (and if present, the child) will experience down the road will be as much Lys' fault as your own.

I guess it would be useful to think about the risks involved in both decisions and then choose the risks you want to take. Because either way you will be taking risks.

If you decide to have a child for Lys's sake, without accepting full responsibility for your equal share in the decision (she may be initiating it but it will be YOU giving it the green light with the full knowledge of what's ahead of us all), it is likely that you will end up resenting her when the going gets rough (and it will get rough in the not too distant future for all of us). And that feeling is likely to affect, if not ruin, your relationship with her as well as the child's life.

On the other hand, if you decide against parenthood, given how strong the desire to have a child is for Lys, she may be very hurt by it. It's not unlikely that she will be resentful of you for depriving her of the opportunity to be a mother. And it's not impossible that the drive to have a child will eventually push her to find someone who will have a child with her.

I would also say that a good question to ask yourself in this process is: which decision will enable you to act in favour of destiny better?

 

[Ant22]

Her urge is REALLY strong. She visualizes this child in every aspect of her life, and it's depressing her above any rational.

I wonder if 'visualisations' is the right word to describe what Lys has been doing. It sounds more like she's been daydreaming about having a child in a romanticised way, which led her to develop a sense of longing for an idealised version of motherhood that she's played in her head many times over by now. And when combined with her strong instinct to procreate intensified by the ticking of the biological clock I'm not surprised having a child has become such an important issue for her.

But life is rarely, if ever, as pretty and easy as our daydreams. It would be useful to assess the negative possibilities and aspects of parenthood - and lack of it - and make sure you're both comfortable with them. Given how many children are born with physical or mental issues you have no guarantees that those problems won't apply to you. What if your child has learning difficulties, a mental disorder such as Down syndrome or autism, or if they have physical alignments that will mean they require 24/7 care for the rest of their lives? I happen to know a few parents whose children aren't 100% healthy and there is lots of suffering involved in seeing your child struggle or in pain. Even mild Special Educational Needs take a huge toll on both the parents and the children.

And even if the child is born healthy, you will inevitably watch it suffer because of the state of the world it will be born into, the turmoil ahead of us, and your own programs and emotional issues you will pass on to them. To what extent will you be able to minimise that suffering for them? And what if the child chooses a different path to yours? What if the current postmodern education pushes them towards gender fluidity and other nonsense? Will you be able to let them go down that path?

And what if your financial situation significantly deteriorates while food becomes scarce? Do you have sufficient food supply and money making prospects to provide for your child and Lys?

Navigating this emotional turmoil, I am really trying my best to envision the positive aspects of such a possibility, but it feels like a feather facing a mercury can on a weighing scale.

I'd say it would be a good idea for both of you to stop focusing only on the positives and have an honest conversation about the good, the bad and the ugly of both paths. And then see if you can come to an agreement.

Edit: clarity

 

[Andrian]

Hi guys, if I may I'd like to chime in and share with you a little advice. I tend to agree with Alejo, Chu, Michael, KTC, Ant and other members that suggested to have a really honest conversation between yourselves, to assess as objectively as possible the circumstances you're finding yourselves in and the world around you.

To be really honest with yourselves that if you'd decide to bring a soul into this world you will be able to protect him and secure his well being while facing the upcoming turmoil that is about to happen worldwide? It's coming guys and there’s no point in trying to deny it, the signs are visible already for the last 2 years and things will get worse before getting better. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to scare monger you or to interfere with your choice.

My point is that if two good natured souls are deciding one way or another to bring a new soul into this world then it is their FULL responsibility to make sure that the newborn baby soul is being loved and well cared for by his parents. Are you up to the task? Just some points to reflect upon before making a decision considering the current state of the world and where it is heading.

Whatever the choice you make i wish to both of you the Best of outcome!

Take care.

 

[hlat]

There are many young kids surrounding us and I can see that it inevitably lead her to be reminded of her own desire. A desire that takes its toll in the form of guilt and pain. I fear that it becomes an endless loop of regrets over time, and that I might finally lose her because of my initial choice. Yet, when I balance things out, I really do not wish this society to a kid, how could I, seeing what I see?

Are you married?

 

[Ant22]

To be really honest with yourselves that if you'd decide to bring a soul into this world (...)

The concept of bringing a soul into this world has been mentioned multiple times in this thread itself, and whenever the question of having children has been brought up elsewhere. And whenever it has been mentioned in that context it has often read like the underlying assumption has been that the child will have an individualised soul. I'd like to comment on that. (P.S: the comment isn't aimed at you specifically Andrian, I just quoted your post as it's the most recent mention of a 'soul' in this thread.)

• As we have learned from the C's, 50% of people on our planet don't have an individualised soul, they are the so-called Organic Portals.
• As further mentioned in the sessions, when a person starts to wake up the system seeks to insert more 'units' into that person's life to hinder that waking up process.
• Those who have followed the conversations and reading assignments about genetic research will remember the concept of genetic entropy, i.e. genes decreasing in quality over time due to accumulating harmful mutations. This could further decrease the likelihood of a potential child's ability to carry an individualised soul. As Laura mentioned in the below comment in another thread:

After all the genetics reading we've done over the past year, I even wonder if humanity has reached its "sell by" date, and I mean that really seriously. If soul marries with genetics, it may be getting increasingly difficult to find bodies to incarnate into that can "carry the charge" of a seeking soul.

This means that the chances that your child will have an individualised soul as opposed to being an OP are lower than 50%, possibly significantly so.

I guess it may be a good idea to re-read the OP thread to help you decide whether you will be able to raise an individual with such qualities. To me, the most important parts of that thread to review would be OPs' draining influence on souled individuals - which I'm guessing is why the system seeks to implement more OP units into the lives of those who begin to follow the path of seeking the truth.

And with that in mind, are you confident that you can protect yourselves to an extent that your own progress will not be derailed? And can you offer your child your unconditional acceptance even if they will never follow your footsteps, and will lead a largely materialistic lifestyle without any inclination towards spiritualism or soul evolution, at least not in the way we understand it here?

Another thing is that a souled individual who has not started to wake up is not really any better than an OP. So the possibility of your child being an OP is not the only factor to consider. For even if your child will carry an individualised soul, that soul may not be at a stage where asking deeper questions even interests them. They may be one of the souls who will be repeating the 3D cycle. I guess that won't be an issue if you accept this as a possibility and you think you will be OK with whoever your child may be. As long as you can protect them from crazy influences of the modern society you may still raise a well adjusted human being. But to what extent can you really protect them from those influences?

Given how many parents take pride in their children following their footsteps in the areas of life that matter to them I thought the above points may be worth mentioning. This may of course be a lesson in accepting someone as they are and that in itself will have some value.

Assuming that we have souls and have lived many lives before this one, certainly we have had kids in our past lives. So you probably have experienced most of the ins and outs of parenthood, the beauty of it and the more painful aspects of it. So I don't think you will necessarily miss out on anything if you both decide not to have children.

That's how I'm looking at it as well. And with that in mind, having children isn't necessarily a lesson needed in order to progress, at least not for everyone.

 

[davidfxl]

What are your thoughts on having children?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm so conflicted with wanting to have another child with the state that the planet is in in regards to all the corruption in capitalism, agriculture, medicine and government and its effects on humanity and the environment. As well as all the earth changes. Is it selfish? Should I not live in fear?

Thanks so much.

Tough desicion. My children are all adults now. My wife and I are still freaked out for them and their childrens future in this troubled time. So just know it won't be easy, so be prepared for many challenges. It's difficult in calm times, I can't imagine the difficulties in this time. My Daughter has to make difficult choices with her children now, avoiding getting them vaxed, face maks at school, etc. It's reaaly crappy.

 

[Gwenllian]

And what if your financial situation significantly deteriorates while food becomes scarce? Do you have sufficient food supply and money making prospects to provide for your child and Lys?

I think that's an important point to raise and discuss with each other, Starshine. I have sometimes asked myself how parents deal with their children in very hard times. I have seen enough movies and series which show us how hard life can be for adults, but it is even harder for the kids. One of the series Laura recommended a few years ago was Charles Dickens's Bleak House. It is a very good reminder of what can happen to us in life. It's about children who lose their parents and have to fend for themselves for instance. Of course it is not just about hardship and tragedy, but series like these could prepare us mentally for what is to come.

I don't know whether both of you have started reading the romance novels, but for instance Grace Burrowes's Tremaine's True Love also deals with kids growing up in extreme poverty and hunger. There are more romance novels that deal with the many trials and tribulations of these poor kids who are orphaned and basically have to raise themselves, such as Kerrigan Byrne's books. Perhaps these series and novels would be a good antidote to Lys's daydreaming and make her more aware of the tremendous responsibility of having a child in these times? But I agree with @davidfxl, it is a tough decision either way.

 

[Chu]

She is faced with many confronting feelings which points out to an existential crisis. She feels weak, egoist and enslaved by this. I don't know if calling it "desire" or "urge" is the best way to describe such an experience, it might be a bit reductive and materialistic to explain what seems to be touching her straight to the bone. It is primal in a sense, but just like the alpha male narrative, I feel like it's a bit of a simplistic explanation. I might be wrong. The advices given to redirect that to something else are confronting her with her inability to do so at the moment.

Believe me, I KNOW how strong it can feel, so I hope that Lys doesn't feel that some of us ladies here can't relate to one extent or another. But I don't want to influence you by saying more. You already know what my personal choice was, and I don't regret it. But for you two it may be different. Nobody says it's easy either way, though.

1. 32 and 34 (with my understanding being that you are the younger) means that potentially you still both have a number of years of fertility ahead of you (for example my wife gave birth to our first at 39 and I can assure you I was nowhere near ready to be a dad at 32, taking until 39 myself to be much more so). So why the intense pressure now? Its amazing how permanent a feeling can be one year only to vanish or become reconciled by the next. Do you both see this as an all or nothing now issue (which may suggest that in some way this is more about your relationship than a child - and how many people make the ultimate mistake of thinking a child will solve the real, hidden issue between the parents!) or are you both willing to remain open and flexible going forward?

This is, I think, one of the key aspects. Why the rush? You are still young, unless your plan is to have 7 children. Given all the signs of the times, and the "acceleration" that seems to have started in 2020, AND Starshine's reservations, why not give it one more year, say, and then decide? The last part in Michael B-C's point is also key: making sure that it's not a decision made to fill in an emotional void, but because it's mature, well thought-out, and as conscious as it can be.

I hope the recent silent means you are having important talks and thinking deeply about this. I wish you all the best whatever you decide! We are here if you need any more feedback. And a big FWIW!

 

[Alejo]

Believe me, I KNOW how strong it can feel, so I hope that Lys doesn't feel that some of us ladies here can't relate to one extent or another. But I don't want to influence you by saying more. You already know what my personal choice was, and I don't regret it. But for you two it may be different. Nobody says it's easy either way, though.

Just to add a bit to this point, from my humble position, it's also not just a "craving", as it usually goes, when we focus ourselves in anything, we tend to recruit the rest of our selves into that focus. It's physical and emotional and mental, best analogy I can come up with is a phobia, where the mere mention, or sound, or smell of something can generate deep emotional responses and physiological ones too, I can imagine that the feeling and drive for children can feel just, as if not more, overwhelming. As Chu said, not easy either way.

And pointing out that there could be a romanticizing going on, isn't to deny the beauty of the parenting experience, it's more of a reminder to be aware of how our bodies work and that awareness can help you both make a more conscious decision.

This is, I think, one of the key aspects. Why the rush? You are still young, unless your plan is to have 7 children. Given all the signs of the times, and the "acceleration" that seems to have started in 2020, AND Starshine's reservations, why not give it one more year, say, and then decide? The last part in Michael B-C's point is also key: making sure that it's not a decision made to fill in an emotional void, but because it's mature, well thought-out, and as conscious as it can be.

And this is also something to consider, crucial in fact, but it may give you guys a bit of perspective. Because, hypothetically speaking, if you were to decide today that you're to become parents, what then? would you be comfortable enough economically? or would you need sometime to set up the foundations? It's just like planning a wedding, you need more than your love, there's money and expenditures and logistics and so many more moving parts, for a one afternoon event. Now imagine a child that is an 18 year old event, so to speak, at least.

So, perhaps another question to ponder is, if a child were to show up in your lives today, how would you meet that challenge and what about both of your lives would you guys wish were different? And after answering that, how long would it take you to implement those changes?

I think the romantic and beautiful idea of parenting is ok, it's what gives the impetus, but it is necessary to ground it eventually, to ground it in your current reality. To be fair to the child yes, but also to each other.

 

[Joe]

My point is that if two good natured souls are deciding one way or another to bring a new soul into this world then it is their FULL responsibility to make sure that the newborn baby soul is being loved and well cared for by his parents. Are you up to the task? Just some points to reflect upon before making a decision considering the current state of the world and where it is heading.

This is my take on it also. Think about it long and hard, talk about it as much as you can/need to, from both a practical and emotional pov. However long this process takes, engage in it consciously and deliberately. There should be no oblique comments or innuendo, all should be planned and open on this topic. The reason for all of that is to get both of you to the point where you can jointly come to a definitive decision, a decision where there is little or no chance of there being serious 'second thoughts', recriminations and resentment etc.

Is it possible to engage this type of honest, open, indepth, periodic discussion about the issue such that it brings both of you to a point where you can make a final decision on it and go with and no looking back?

 

[luc]

This is my take on it also. Think about it long and hard, talk about it as much as you can/need to, from both a practical and emotional pov. However long this process takes, engage in it consciously and deliberately. There should be no oblique comments or innuendo, all should be planned and open on this topic. The reason for all of that is to get both of you to the point where you can jointly come to a definitive decision, a decision where there is little or no chance of there being serious 'second thoughts', recriminations and resentment etc.

Is it possible to engage this type of honest, open, indepth, periodic discussion about the issue such that it brings both of you to a point where you can make a final decision on it and go with and no looking back?

That's it precisely. You need to make absolutely sure to have come to a definitive decision, and you may want to give each other the promise of never, ever accusing the other of having convinced you of a decision you didn't really want, or blame him or her for the wrong outcome. But to do that, you both need to be in a position to make that promise, and for that you need to talk, and then talk again, in a completely open manner where you sincerely put everything on the table and sincerely listen to what the other says.

 

[Ina]

The brain alone is important, but children may be conceived and 'appear' without any specific decision being made or in spite of a decision to the contrary, due to the body and feelings state of over happiness. Having children is a life altering event and long life process of change. In front of that both parents can do only two things, to consciously 'be' and continuously 'do'. When becoming a parent, for some, instantaneously the egoism gets erased. However, that moment is also the beginning of the deterioration of the personal capacity of 'being' and 'doing'. Raising children requires extra effort, but only extra effort is admitted as full measure for a job done.
If you have doubts of the motives of the potential mother, perhaps asking for a set period of say 6 months of introspection would be fair. In 6 months both of you can read and discuss Gurdjieff even backwards. Take it as a team building process for self discovery. However if after that period you still have doubts, releasing your partner from the life together understanding would be the right thing to do.
I wish you courage.

 

[Ina]

@Starshine ,
I wrote my previous message, part of it, for me as well. As a 30something year old parent and after 58 years of life, I've hit a point of 'depletion' when my willing power needs to be at an all time high. So, I started Gurdjieff 'da capo'.

 

[Lys]

Hello everyone,

First I want to thank you all for your kindness and honesty, your comments helped me to stay in reality while my senses were upside down.

This is the second time in my life that I feel this way as you may have seen in my previous posts last year and, it is hard to feel stuck everyday with both sadness and despair.
Most of you know how it feels.
Even though I was aware of it, I felt alone and wanted to be alone and, I didn’t like the way I thought.
Somewhat, it was like someone else was taking control of my feelings, my body.
And, I was so desperate that I made Starshine feel guilty, in the hot seat and, at this time I didn’t care even though I felt guilty for it, it was all me and my sadness.
I kind of wanted to get this feeling to its climax so it wouldn’t come back.
I am afraid of going through this again as winter and the global situation seem to bring me back to despair.

The more desperate I feel, the more I want to fill the emptiness inside.
I know for sure that it is not a world where it is great to be born, that I would have to fight everyday to protect the human being we would have brought to this world and, I know we would always find the strength to do it.

That being said, I am not sure that it would have been the same with someone else.
Starshine is the man I would love to bring a child with. He would surely be the man of the situation every time as adversity brings his resources and strengths out. And of course, he is the man I love.
And I love our community, and it is even harder to see my in-laws knowing how great they would be as grand-parents.
I don’t want to rise a child with someone else nor somewhere else so I think it is a good sign, I may not be silly and desperate to that degree.

As parents we would suffer, we would worry, we would fight, we would get slaps across the face, we would fear all the the time for everything but, this is not what I fear.
The thing I fear the most is that that human being would suffer and I know I can’t prevent it to happen. Everyone suffers in his own way.
Then I fear that Starshine would be sad and frustrated as this is not the way he chose to live his life and that I could lose him if it happens that we have a child.

So what I’ve learned through this is that I have not the willpower to take care of myself as much as I have it to take care of others.
Taking care of myself brings me back to myself again and again, it emphasizes the emptiness of myself and the feeling I have always had to be without purpose.
Of course I have day to day objectives so I am able to do what I have to do, go to work, take care of daily tasks, gardening, cleaning etc…
I am well surrounded, I live with good people in a pleasant and quiet place with lot of nature and, I don’t doubt that so far we have made good choices of living.
But, all of this looks like it is all for ourselves, that we don’t do anything apart of improving the comfort of our place. I wonder sometimes what will remain after this all would be done.

I certainly give to much importance to myself.
Indeed, I feel sometimes that I should have a bigger purpose and some other times I wonder why I would have to. Maybe my life has to be as simple as it is.
I may have to admit that in this lifetime I won't do anything remarkable or that it is just not the right time yet. I just didn't find my purpose so far.
I am very impatient in everyway, all I want I want it right now, I do everything fast and I can't stay still. When I decide to do something, I rush headlong through it. Again, it may be my way of running from myself and from suffering.
This is probably why Starshine felt hurried to make a choice although I don't even know if I would have decided to go straight forward to parenthood if he would have said yes.
We are not ready to be parents materially and financially.
I wanted get rid of this sadness whilst I maintained it and a week ago it was still the only way I could see in order to cope.
It shows how I am not even ready psychologically.

All of this makes me feel kind of primal and immature.

We talked a lot with Starshine but this is not finished yet, we still have to talk about it and I think it is going to be easier as my mood improves days after days.
I found help with plants and if my mood is too low, a cold shower or biking with our dog help too.
Plus, we decided that we needed holidays far from home and found a gite handled by a couple who seems to be very kind.
We need to come together again outside the daily routine.

I don't want to wallow in self-pity and yet, when reread my words this is kind of what I do.
So, I have to work on that.

Thanks for reading.