What are your thoughts on having children?

[Ruth]

I'm not sure there can be selfish reasons for not having a child because I don't think there are unselfish reasons for having a child, at least in the sense that having a child is, for most people, an unconscious drive that is born of our STS natures.

Some people would rather spend any income earned on something else (like themselves) and also might see a child as a competitor for other people's attention in addition to that.

Well, we live in an STS world, so it stands to reason that there may be selfish reasons for not having children too! Depending on where a person is on the 'selfishness' scale. And then there's the fear angle too, which might be more common in people than the selfishness one.

 

[BHelmet]

Is there a possibillity that you might be reacting emotionally to what has been said here because of the fact that you have had children yourself?

There is always a possibility of anything, but I am not attached in that way. I am just trying to communicate. Child bearing and raising, when viewed prior to the fact, looks totally different than it does on the other end of the process. I had my preconceptions and reasons for resisting the process. As it turned out, it was totally different than I imagined. It is one of those things that has to be experienced to be truly understood. (yes, in my opinion, but also in my experience.)

As for this: "one day, in 4th density, it will be your descendants mission to carry on the tradition and assignment of seeding the 3rd density universe, once you have the adequate knowledge!!!"

That is an interesting statement and I think it has a direct relationship with the thoughts on having children today. It does mention 'your descendants" as though, from a certain point of view, it is somebody different from you or me. But, in both having kids and also coming to terms with my relationships with my own parents, I realize there is a continuity. I am aware of the presence of my parents in my own being just as I can see myself in my kids. Yes, we are different and separate but there is also a common thread and a sort of continuous unity. Maybe I experience it is because I am part Native American, or Italian, I don't know. I think it is there for anyone.

The C's go on to say "once you have the adequate knowledge" as though acknowledging this continuity between now and then. "We are you in the future" is another case of this. And as for nit-picking. The devil is in the details, as we should all know by now.

So - in some future this seeding is both an assignment and a tradition. (are we going to say - 'you know what, remember 3D STS earth? Wow - that was really hard! The same thing could happen to our precious seedlings. What should we do?") The seeding will have to occur in spite of the potential for the same disaster that befell us because: we have faith in our soul material which we will give to them as a gift, which is one with the creator, to pull our seedlings through.

Just my crazy thoughts. Make use of them if you can.

 

[Peam]

So - in some future this seeding is both an assignment and a tradition. (are we going to say - 'you know what, remember 3D STS earth? Wow - that was really hard! The same thing could happen to our precious seedlings.

I suspect that the same thing or very similar WILL happen. Didn't the C's say something like it's a repeating cycle throughout the universe, it's a part of the natural curriculum of the school?

What should we do?") The seeding will have to occur in spite of the potential for the same disaster that befell us because: we have faith in our soul material which we will give to them as a gift, which is one with the creator, to pull our seedlings through.

It's only a disaster from our limited 3d subjective perspective. The higher density's more objective perspective could be that this 3d experience seems to be a catalyst for growth.

 

[Buddy]

I've enjoyed reading this thread and thinking about what's been said. Personally, my wife and I got together 20 years ago and at that time she had already been through a cancer surgery and couldn't have more kids. So, I helped her finish raising her own. I can't decide what side of the issue I come down on and I guess it's because I don't have a personal connection to it.

I mainly find myself wondering how this input has helped the OP and if her anxiety levels have come within tolerance.

 

[Juba]

I have always wanted children, and sometimes the biological pull is REALLY strong. In order to get over it, I remember that I have made life decisions that a child would be born into, already at a disadvantage because he or she wasn't part of that decision originally. What if that baby doesn't want to do the Work, to live a life like mine? Until they grow up, they wouldn't have much choice not to be part of it. Then, even if things were to stay pretty stable and not change much from what they are now, I get terrified at the idea that the children may be taken by a psycho social worker just because I don't want to send them to school, give them vaccines, etc. Then, imagining that all the above doesn't happen (I do my very best, the system doesn't take them away, and the children have also chosen to be born and adhere to my not-so-standard worldview), as much as I may do my very best, I KNOW that it is very likely that I'll damage them somehow, even if I'm really lucky to live with people who would be the best family those children could have and good role models in the areas I may mess up with (that also puts pressure on them, so another reason!). I have yet to know one single person who actually received the type of love they wanted, and I don't think I am conscious and aware enough to be utterly selfless, and be able to listen and act based on what that being's real needs are. And, even if that wasn't so bad, there are other people to consider who may have a bad influence in them. Society as it is can be very damaging, as we know. But then, choosing to make your children live in a protected bubble doesn't allow them to learn from life either. AND, with what we have learned about epigenecis, mycoplasma and infections (I recommend you use he search function to find threads about this, EMA), for example, I also hesitate because I don't want my children to have to suffer in their physical bodies more than is necessary, and until my partner and I have done our very best to be as healthy as possible, and that in and of itself, is very hard to achieve after years of damage.

So, there are many factors to consider. I too hope that one day it will be possible. But for the time being, I choose to try to "channel" that maternal instinct in smaller things, in learning and sharing what I learn, in "mothering" others when I see someone wounded, and hope that if not in this life, then in another one I will experience being a mother. And that if there are some souls I am linked to who are "waiting", that they understand that I am trying my best now to be a better mom for them in the future, to make a tiny difference in the world so that when they DO come, they don't have to be born in "hell". That many things I do, I do for them, even if we may not physically meet this time around. I also try to not make it about MY potential children, but about ALL children. That means sacrificing MY wants, MY desire to have a child and experience motherhood, based on the faith I have in what we do here and on the importance of becoming a better person. Does that mean that I am thus avoiding the lesson involved in being a mother? Certainly, but of all the lessons I could avoid, I'd rather avoid the one that would affect and potentially hurt other beings the most. I DON'T WANT to avoid it. I would LOVE to be a mother. It takes a lot of will and reasoning not to go ahead. Gurdjieff spoke about the importance of "doing what IT doesn't like", so all that indicates that it's probably what I need to refrain from (at least for now), for the sake of those children, and to keep doing what I'm doing, as little as it may be in the larger scheme of things, and as much as the decision is the hardest I make every day.

It's really hard not to read this post over and over again and it is even harder not to cry over the depths of the words in it. It is simply impossible to ad anything to it, I can only say - thank you Chu.

 

[Renaissance]

Is there a possibillity that you might be reacting emotionally to what has been said here because of the fact that you have had children yourself?

There is always a possibility of anything, but I am not attached in that way. I am just trying to communicate. Child bearing and raising, when viewed prior to the fact, looks totally different than it does on the other end of the process. I had my preconceptions and reasons for resisting the process. As it turned out, it was totally different than I imagined. It is one of those things that has to be experienced to be truly understood. (yes, in my opinion, but also in my experience.)

Just to add my impression, I don't know if you have a particular emotional attachment to topic of having children, but there does seem to be something that is preventing you from seeing or understanding what others are saying. It could be 'wanting to debate', 'needing to be right', or their could also be a belief system/sacred cow that relates to the topic. One thing that occurred to me is that it seems you're taking a literal and material approach to a topic that is not so 'nuts and bolts'.

As for this: "one day, in 4th density, it will be your descendants mission to carry on the tradition and assignment of seeding the 3rd density universe, once you have the adequate knowledge!!!"

That is an interesting statement and I think it has a direct relationship with the thoughts on having children today. It does mention 'your descendants" as though, from a certain point of view, it is somebody different from you or me.

My take from that quote is that our descendants are simply those who come after us, particularly those who "carry on the tradition". I don't think it has to be defined as a literal meaning of our biological lineage.

But, in both having kids and also coming to terms with my relationships with my own parents, I realize there is a continuity. I am aware of the presence of my parents in my own being just as I can see myself in my kids. Yes, we are different and separate but there is also a common thread and a sort of continuous unity. Maybe I experience it is because I am part Native American, or Italian, I don't know. I think it is there for anyone.

Well, this continuity isn't necessarily a good thing and one of the things involving the Work is to make efforts that are often in action against genetic dispositions, our family programming, and so on. I think it's fair to say most in this world have pretty damaged genes to go along with our seriously messed up world.

The C's go on to say "once you have the adequate knowledge" as though acknowledging this continuity between now and then. "We are you in the future" is another case of this.

I don't think I understand what you're saying here or the connections you're trying to make.

And as for nit-picking. The devil is in the details, as we should all know by now.

Digging into details is useful, but that's not the same as nit-picking. Nit-picking is a distraction by focusing on tangent issues and topics that miss the heart of the matter.

 

[luc]

Fascinating discussion, thank you all. For us too, this question has always bothered us, but so far, our answer is "no", for many of the reasons stated here.

I think one thing that is really important to realize is that we humans are under EXTREME pressure towards having children. I guess this is especially true for women, but also for men. There is the biological pressure, and the pressure from society as well. For the vast majority of people, not having children if you could have them is just unthinkable and the very idea revolting. I mean, this is heavy stuff. You basically become an outcast, and we know that our instincts run amok once we are in danger of being "expelled from the tribe". As mabar said:

fwiw ... I had been told several times of being selfish, egoistic, about my decision of not having nor wanting to have children, with similar arguments about bringing/rising good people to this chaotic world.

That's what people think, and it is fueled by our stupid culture. We are pushed towards being "food for the moon" indeed. I just want to say that if you want to make a rational decision whether to have children or not, you should keep in mind that this whole "rational discussion" is rigged: There's an extremely strong pull in the direction of "yes, I want to have children" and your mind will come up with all kinds of narratives to support that decision. I don't think that having children is a bad decision per se, it's just not that black and white. But we should be aware of this extreme pressure that we are subject to when thinking about all this, whether we are aware of it or not.

I love kids, but I've never wanted any. I adore my nieces and nephews, find it very fulfilling to help children develop as musicians, and totally appreciate the reasons people would want a family.

I think these are very important points/observations. I know two couples who kind of serve us as examples that not having children can have amazing effects. One is an elder lesbian couple, the other a couple that got married late, they are in their late 50ies. These are both very loving relationships, as far as I can see. And it's really amazing to see that both couples are great at counseling, have a very giving nature, are always there for many people, have guests on a regular basis that seek their advice, are involved in all kinds of "helping activities" like caring for elder/sick people, and generally are an inspiration to many around them. And to me, this suggests that there is a "mother energy", or "parent energy" or "adult couple energy" that can achieve a lot of good stuff when not focused on one's own children, even in an environment outside the Work. With people working on themselves, I would think that the effect is multiplied! So I think this is something to keep in mind, that maybe we can put our father/mother energies to good use even without children, maybe especially without children. And think about it - that way, we can actually choose our "children"!

Just some thoughts, thanks again for the great thread.

 

[SMM]

A very interesting discussion, thank you all. I happened upon this thread by chance while searching for a Gurdjieff quote, today of all days with the full moon and the topic itself is pertinent currently in my life.

A potentially related question: in the book Sex, Lies and Menopause by T.S. Wiley, it states:

Having never completed a pregnancy or never breast-feeding may mean that you need continual natural hormone replacement more than someone who did.

What are the full implications here? Would never having a child Even before coming across the Work and the forum, I used to joke that I love my children so much I don't want to bring them into this world. Getting older, the urge to have children comes and goes with fluctuating intensity. Hormones are not easy to override, male and female alike. The natural hormone replacement stood out, as earlier in the book she mentions increased likelihoood of cancer with later pregnancies, i.e. over the age of 26. I haven't finished the book so the answer(s) might be found there.

The idea of adopting used to cross my mind, if ever in a stable, viable position, though no certainty, is highly unlikely it will be as that has it's own set of challenges and possibilities.

Mod edit: Fixed quote box.

 

[WhiteRose]

I was wondering whether to write here, but I would like to share my thoughts on this topic with you, that's why please allow me to refer to the very subject of this thread.
I am a young mother, I can not imagine life without my daughter, does this mean that "my ego" speaks through me?
I do not know, but I know one thing.
My child is a "miracle".
Ask why?
Doctors told me that I would never have children. That is why she will not call her coming to this world neither "unplanned pregnancy" or "incident".
She is a "miracle".
Before my actual partner and my daughter appeared I did not have much happiness in my life, my childhood did not belong to some of the happiest either (divorce of parents, relocation, accidents) and it never really drew me to children, the more after the doctors gave me the diagnosis.
I was thinking then but I was wrong. Why?
Because after each sex act I had with my partners I used the test and I was nervous or maybe I did get pregnant.
My subconscious apparently wanted it so badly even though I denied it but I got pregnant. They were not light times, but I do not intend to write about it.
Today I look at it this way, since we're here to learn something if we have the opportunity to become parents, we should use it.
There is only one thing but in this ... It's my personal feeling after becoming a mother which I try to implement every day:
To bring up a child better than we were brought up. Yes, the values will be duplicated but in spite of everything, if we are able to give our children more knowledge than we have received, then there is a chance to change. There is a reason for years that there is a saying that "children are our future". Besides, you probably know that we are part of one great consciousness, who came here to experience, not depending on the circumstances, that's why I think we should not think about whether to have a child, just how we should educate them so that they pass on this knowledge. Because we are their guardians and they see support in us first and only if we lead them well, that's why I deeply believe thanks to the fact that tomorrow will be better than today.

These were my personal thoughts and I hope that no one will blame me for what I wrote.
I apologize in advance for mistakes (my English is still not good).

 

[leesmith]

I married at 38 and we had our first when I was 42. She was 33 at marriage, and had our first at 37. Then we had another when I was 47 and she 42.

We got engaged in six days. A week later, she and the two girls and the dog and the cat moved into my one room apartment.

Before we conceived our first she said some things in a happy, slightly spooked and friendly voice, leaving the impression with me that something nice was afoot, that she would let me know about a month later whether the light was off or green--there was no sense that there was a red light. I was happy in the ignorant way of a recent former bachelor. It all happened rather smoothly, pleasantly, with a note of the many things that would happen as the days and years came along. The first took over twelve hours in labor, and only came out straight when the doctor threatened her with a c-section if the boy didn't come out soon. The appearance of the second a little over four years later was planned and "uneventful."

In other words, have the child. Without the child wisdom will come to you at a price and time that might not make much sense. (How strange and maybe vile that might sound to some.) The passing of the generations is an obvious train to catch. I am trying to speak from a great distance in order to avoid having to consider many things, among them the stories of the frequent deaths--death-by-child--that plagued our ancestors. The moment of the birth of a child calms the parents and shows them the simple path they must follow while trying (perhaps) to imagine how their own mothers fared in their time.

Here's a little something my wife showed my several years after both the boys were in school.

from Jack Kornfield, A Path with Heart NY Bantam Books 1993

There is a tribe in east Africa in which the art of true intimacy is fostered even before birth. In this tribe, the birth date of the child is not counted from the day of its physical birth nor even the day of conception, as in other village-cultures. For this tribe the birth date comes the first time the child is a thought in its mother's mind. Aware of her intention to conceive a child with a particular father, the mother then goes off to sit alone beneath a tree. There she sits and listens until she can hear the song of the child that she hopes to conceive. Once she has heard it, she returns to her village and teaches it to the father so that they can sing it together as they make love, inviting the child to join them. After the child is conceived, she sings it to the baby in her womb. Then she teaches it to the old women and midwives of the village, so that throughout the labor and the miraculous moment of birth itself, the child is greeted with its song. After the birth all the villagers learn the song of their new member and sing it to the child when it falls or hurts itself. It is sung in times of triumph, or in rituals and initiations. The song becomes a part of the marriage ceremony when the child is grown, and at the end of life, his or her loved ones will gather around the death bed and sing this song for the last time.

 

[TM0629]

I can only speak for myself using the reference of my personal experiences. I have discussed with my husband my desire to NOT have children. This is motivated mainly by my childhood, which was quite troubling/traumatic and of which I am still struggling to heal myself from. I grew up with a young mother who was an addict, and thus she was a negligent parent. I suffered sexual abuse from my uncle from the age of five for a period of roughly a year and I was never the same. Around the age of six I was placed in a relative foster care, where I ended up with a highly manipulative, abusive, and overall toxic family. While I could continue, my decision to not have children stems from not feeling in any way capable of providing a nurturing environment. I am struggling to live day to day, and that’s not even considering the major issues with the economy, schooling, government, and overwhelming amount of disinformation available in mainstream society. I could not personally justify choosing to bring a child into these circumstances, however I’m not discounting the possibility of getting pregnant as often many are not planned, and in that event I could only attempt to do my best in improving my self for the well-being of the child. I am choosing to dedicate myself to learning, growing and healing for now.

 

[on_fuego]

As a new dad to a 5 month old, I completely understand the original poster's concern. As new parents, both my wife and I have many concerns and many questions about how to raise a child, especially at this time in humanity's current state. I do believe that all of this does not have to be thought of as black or white. Yes, there was a certain level of selfishness in our decision to have children but I do believe that being born in this world at this time is neither a blessing nor a curse. It is what it is, nothing but lessons. My kid came into this world, into his "earth suit", for a reason. I don't think he came into this world to spend his young and adult life (hopefully he will get to that point) just to enjoy all of the pleasures of life. I don't think that will be an option in the near future for most people anyways. Landing here at this point in time tells me that he knows what he is getting himself into and he wants to tackle it head on. At least that is what I tell myself.

There really is nothing in this world like having a child. The good and the bad. There is nothing more beautiful than a big toothless smile. Now, the question is, will we have more children? Maybe. We are not in a rush but, if the universe tells us yes and we feel ready, then we might. For now, I will do anything I need to do to the best of my abilities to help him fulfill his purpose and journey in this level at this time as best as possible, whatever that may be. Maybe that makes me a little bit less selfish? Or maybe it doesn't really matter.

 

[Voyageur]

Thanks to everyone who has written here as I'm always moved by how people think about these things - for or against, and it can be highly individual and emotional. There is contrast to both decisions, and as luc said back in 2015 and others before, knowing how the world is today and the challenges a couple (or a single parent) face, leaves decision making gaps that seemed easier before (primary needs - food, incomes, health, family support et cetera). At the same time, it was possibly easier then because peeps just did not know, it was the way it was. Younger forumits who have new young children or are in the position to have children, have also learned of these challenges in way more depth than many, and they may also know how better to cope and protect - and to help others. And that is the thing about having children, your senses of protection leap into hyper-drive - everything changes. The advantages you can bring to the relationship (psychological et al) are far more then many of us who did have children knew at our time. I wish I had known more, and that is the lesson too.

Each of you who have had children indeed now know this word, a world full of great joy (indescribable really) and moments of unbound worry and pain, for you are no longer one, you are representing two, three or four and more with great responsibility and vulnerability at the same time.

For those who don't have children, knowing what you know, as Chu mentions, the opportunity to help families to pave a better way is possible, and personally, many are ideally suited to keep watch on the systems and help to affect change or just in offering advice. And that is the other thing, awareness and change seem so fleeting these days, a great sadness, yet at the same time there is some movement and one never knows - so best to try and keep open.

It may all come down to a persons lesson profile, I don't really know this either, and I don't know what it would be like to not have had children, so far be it for me to say. However, to contemplate a world without children seems like it would be like a tree that never has leaves in growth. A tree like this, like familes in society, need a proper medium to grow, and that is what people in society are being deprived of due to the usual factors. Hopefully, proper balance in all things can be found and there is a lot of work to do to help reach this balance. So, with children or not, we can all help.

One other thing - an aside yet related. In the film 'Fast Runner' there was an Inuit family (this was a reincarnation thing), and this young mother had suddenly realized that her newborn child was her loved mother (or grandmother) who had past away before - there were all these lessons going on. There seems to be many examples of these connected profiles in families and children that are so strange, and yet this is important stuff that I've no answer to other than the sense of karmic lessons of some kind

 

[jhonny]

I can only speak for myself using the reference of my personal experiences. I have discussed with my husband my desire to NOT have children. This is motivated mainly by my childhood, which was quite troubling/traumatic and of which I am still struggling to heal myself from. I grew up with a young mother who was an addict, and thus she was a negligent parent. I suffered sexual abuse from my uncle from the age of five for a period of roughly a year and I was never the same. Around the age of six I was placed in a relative foster care, where I ended up with a highly manipulative, abusive, and overall toxic family.

Hi TM0629
I don't know if you have had the time to check out the Recommended Books: List and Guide, if not,I highly recommend you to go over the list, related material and resources. There you can find books on psychology, which are very helpful.
Just a recommendation

 

[Lys]

I'm bringing this topic back, yes it can seem a bit out of place regarding the global situation we are living in.
Those last weeks, I've been feeling completely desperate, I'll try to explain.

The world we are living in seemed to me in this period of time, over, not worth living in it. I was torn between the will of fighting and the one of giving up.
I didn't want to breath, to stretch or to do any exercise at all. Likewise, I didn't want to study, to do my final year dissertation or anything more than doing what I had to do in a daily basis which mean cleaning, driving my mother-in-law to her medical appointments and working at the market two days a week. And this is still the case.
I am very grateful for what I have, I am quite a lucky girl despite the fact that it has not been all pretty, especially in my childhood.
But I have always been able to see the good side of what life brought to me, yet it has been very difficult to keep this state of mind lately.

One thing I was still doing was reading romance novels, and I felt at the beginning like I was escaping the situation, like the world was going to collapse and all I was doing was reading romance novels like this man in a video who was surrounded by the chaos of a violent protest and still playing piano. I felt totally ridiculous, but I couldn't stop reading.

Then I suddenly felt something like panic, I was still very quiet even withdrew myself from the rest of our home but there was something like an urge, something very deep coming back to the surface, and I didn't exactly what it was.
I think that the presence of my sister-in-law at home with her two sons reawakened the fact that I always wanted to have kids.
With my partner we took the decision years ago not to have one, it was like mourning, and I thought I went through it at the time being, but I didn't.
I still had hope that someday bringing a child to this world would be possible.

Two days ago I talk about it to my partner, and I was worried about it as the last thing I needed was him reminding me why we decided not to have kids.
This is not like I didn't know. We get both in touch with what is happening in the world, in our country, and I searched a lot for information on child traffic, abuse and mind control.
Yet, the place we are living in seems so opposite to that. At the time we moved in, we didn't know who we were surrounded by, then we discovered so many great people who have values and who are committed to making this area a better place for everyone.

I felt hurt when I heard about the draft bill of the government for prohibiting school at home, it was like this unconscious hope was slapped in the face again, then a woman whom I talked to about this lately came to me at the market walking with a firm step, she told me that this law is not going to pass. I was so happy !!
This feeling was followed by a new despair episode, reminding me that I am not going to be a mother.

Yesterday I went to see a psychotherapist as I couldn't keep going like a ghost passively living a life without meaning.
I didn't recognize myself.
I was barely seated on my chair that I already started crying. She then helped me to realize that I didn't allow myself to feel it, that I was trying to control this willing to be a mother and that whatever I choose to have a kid or not, I have to let it express itself.
I think she is right, I need to feel what would come out if there was going to be a child in our life and accept that it may hurt.

Last night I talked about it to my partner, and he was amazing. He asked me if we could play an imagination game. So we started to visualize that we were going to have a kid. Then what's next ? We would have to transform the barn into a habitation so our child could have a bedroom. The cabins could then be used as vacations rentals and naturopathy consulting room.
He would have to bring enough money in order for me to be with the child at home and later do the school at home etc...
It was just us imagining it, and it was good, it felt so good.

When I look back into my life, I feel like I was born to take care of people. I took care of my little sister, then the children of the building where I lived when I was younger, my clients when I was hairdresser, my boyfriends. Today I take care of my beloved partner, and I like it, I take care of my in-laws, my clients at the market, and I hope I am going to take care of my clients in naturopathy.
This is the way I am, and I didn't always do it in the right way, I have been overprotecting people for a long time then my partner made me realize that it was too much. I am now able to temper this behavior.

Today I feel like everything we've done so far was in order to prepare a nest for a child : moving to the countryside, taking care of our health, living with my in-laws who would be such good grand-parents especially my mother-in-law whom I consider as a mother role model since I know her.
I know that it may not be the case, that it probably comes from my imagination and this is surely wishful thinking but this is what I feel.

All of this makes me realize that I am still not able to do things only for my wellbeing, I never was. That doesn't mean that I am not a selfish person. Everything I do for others makes me feel good and this post is really only about myself.
This is why I was feeling very guilty about this deep need to have a kid, now I am trying not to feel guilty about that, this is stronger than me, and it has to pass.

So, for now I am going to allow myself to imagine it, to feel it, and I am going to do like we were going to bring a baby in this world in the coming years.
It may not be the case, and I am aware of it but, for now I really need to feel it as this is the only source of motivation I get today.
Everything I could do next seems very ancillary to me without this in mind.

So those are my thoughts on having children at this time and who knows, as the psychotherapist told me yesterday, a storm never last forever. So the storm I'm currently living inside may calm down, then I may be able to accept and make my grief or the global situation we are living in may change too.

As we say in France "never say never".