What to do when you realise you're lucid dreaming

Gimpy

The Living Force
Belibaste said:
Q: (L) What was the source of the dream where this was stated to me quite clearly?
A: Dreams are the best forum for disinformation that exists.


Yes, I agree. The high level of silliness, weirdness, and 'noise' is what brought me to the psychological study of dreams. Its also why the dream book mentioned was such a 'find' at the time. The more consciousness is worked on, the less prominent the ridiculousness is.

Its a matter of priority. Does one forge a soul, or play around in endless circles?

Its easy to get caught up in the 'wonder of it all'. Thankfully that time is long past. :)

I do have dreams that make me laugh. Those are still nice. ;D
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
Gimpy said:
Yes, I agree. The high level of silliness, weirdness, and 'noise' is what brought me to the psychological study of dreams.

The disinformation aspect of dreams has little to do with the silliness and weirdness - those dreams are easy to dismiss. However, dreams that seem to carry a deep message or connection might indeed be messages 'inserted' to lead one astray. This seems to occur most often with romantic content - though it's not limited to that. Honey traps indeed. At least, that's my current understanding.
 

Gimpy

The Living Force
anart said:
Gimpy said:
Yes, I agree. The high level of silliness, weirdness, and 'noise' is what brought me to the psychological study of dreams.

The disinformation aspect of dreams has little to do with the silliness and weirdness - those dreams are easy to dismiss. However, dreams that seem to carry a deep message or connection might indeed be messages 'inserted' to lead one astray. This seems to occur most often with romantic content - though it's not limited to that. Honey traps indeed. At least, that's my current understanding.

Those can be spotted by intensity....the kind that tries too hard to appear important, deep, or meaningful. There will always be something lacking in the symbolisms...'they know the notes but not the music' kind of thing. Sometimes it will be subtle symbolisms, but these will pop up everywhere you look.
I've found that noting those and taking a pause, looking into the symbol, then moving on again works well.

The romantic interest stuff I've learned to change in the dream, or let it slide by as a temptation I'm not interested in.

I think the General Law operates at some level in the dream state, its like the Collective Unconscious has a hose in it to 4D, if that makes any sense? :/
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
Gimpy said:
Those can be spotted by intensity....the kind that tries too hard to appear important, deep, or meaningful.

Well, there is a fine line there, Gimpy. Some dreams are actually intense and quite meaningful; messages or warnings sent from our subconscious/higher self/future self that are too deep to ignore and that one never forgets.

gimpy said:
There will always be something lacking in the symbolisms...'they know the notes but not the music' kind of thing. Sometimes it will be subtle symbolisms, but these will pop up everywhere you look.
I've found that noting those and taking a pause, looking into the symbol, then moving on again works well.

This might be true, but I think one of the reasons that dreams are the best form of disinformation is the simple fact that they can strongly evoke emotions and most people are carried away by such things - so, again, there is a lot of power there to carry people more deeply into sleep, literally and figuratively.

gimpy said:
The romantic interest stuff I've learned to change in the dream, or let it slide by as a temptation I'm not interested in.

So, what dreams 'catch you' - or do you think none of them do?

gimpy said:
I think the General Law operates at some level in the dream state,

Of course it does - that's why it is such a powerful form of disinformation - a prison has many kinds of doors. The purpose of the General Law is to keep mankind in its place - dreaming and Dreaming are perfect for that.
 

Gimpy

The Living Force
anart said:
Well, there is a fine line there, Gimpy. Some dreams are actually intense and quite meaningful; messages or warnings sent from our subconscious/higher self/future self that are too deep to ignore and that one never forgets.

gimpy said:
There will always be something lacking in the symbolisms...'they know the notes but not the music' kind of thing. Sometimes it will be subtle symbolisms, but these will pop up everywhere you look.
I've found that noting those and taking a pause, looking into the symbol, then moving on again works well.

This might be true, but I think one of the reasons that dreams are the best form of disinformation is the simple fact that they can strongly evoke emotions and most people are carried away by such things - so, again, there is a lot of power there to carry people more deeply into sleep, literally and figuratively.

gimpy said:
The romantic interest stuff I've learned to change in the dream, or let it slide by as a temptation I'm not interested in.

So, what dreams 'catch you' - or do you think none of them do?

gimpy said:
I think the General Law operates at some level in the dream state,

Of course it does - that's why it is such a powerful form of disinformation - a prison has many kinds of doors. The purpose of the General Law is to keep mankind in its place - dreaming and Dreaming are perfect for that.

I'm not good with the quotes yet. :-[

I'll try to answer top to bottom.....

1. Yeah, there is a fine line. Finding it is like learning a skill...like brain surgery. ;D

2. The emotional loading of dreams: what about working through emotions from dreams the same way one observes self moving through programs while awake? Does that make sense? Often the same programs that run when 'awake', will just shift to some emotional vector when sleeping.

3. What dreams catch me? The ones of my loved ones who've died, and seeing spiritual teachers who've also died, dropping hints that I should return to a way of life that I can't live anymore. Those hurt a lot, and can make me depressed. Those dreams point out to me everything that's now gone...though now I can say it's not been a wholly negative turn of events. :)
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
From reply number 21 February 26th 2008:
thorbiorn said:
If one in not aware in the dreamstate one cannot DO in the dream state, or so it seems.
Anart said:
To 'DO' anything at all (from a 4th Way perspective), one must be fully conscious - fully 'awake' in all ways, so I'm just wondering why you would think it is possible to 'DO' anything at all in a dream state?

Maybe I do not understand the whole concept of the 4th Way, but I could try to put the thought in different words:

If what goes on in the subconscious have any influence on how we act.

If on the average about 90 % of the mental activity is subconscious, then there should be a lot of activity we undertake in the waking state without being aware of why and how.

If I have a dream and I then forget its content or misremember it, then the dream material joins the mass of subconscious material.

Now the question is; if I do not remember a dream, is it guaranteed it will not have any effect on my choices in the waking state? For example if someone, let us say 4th Density Service to Self manipulated or influenced my dream for their benefit, is it sure it will not influence me in any way?

This is where I am wondering, how different an unrecalled dream is from watching a subliminal advertisement or getting a post hypnotic suggestion.

Therefore I think it is better, if one is aware in the dream state. It may not prevent one from being manipulated, but it does up the chances of one being able to understand what is going on and resist it, if there is an evil, so to say, intention behind.

About understanding dreams and sorting out the disinformation that may come in, I think it is not much different from how one counteracts disinformation for issues in the waking state. One uses reason, analysis, knowledge, networking, research, and intuition. And a desire for the truth about one self is helpful.
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
thorbiorn said:
If I have a dream and I then forget its content or misremember it, then the dream material joins the mass of subconscious material.
But if the dream came out of your subconscious mind, would you really be adding anything to it that wasn't already there? It seems that if anything, it's the parts that you do remember that might influence you (like a powerful dream that just had a really strong effect on you), cuz if you don't remember something, wouldn't it just go back to where it came from?

thorbiorn said:
Now the question is; if I do not remember a dream, is it guaranteed it will not have any effect on my choices in the waking state?
The Work makes us more aware of the unconscious influences and to be more conscious at the moment of making a choice. I think we have no control over what enters our mind in a lot of cases - if "aliens" can influence us in our dreams, there's no reason they can't just "beam" things into our subconscious minds all day long too. But doing the Work prevents that from controlling our conscious minds and decisions, osit.

thorbiorn said:
This is where I am wondering, how different an unrecalled dream is from watching a subliminal advertisement or getting a post hypnotic suggestion.
And if there is a subliminal message in advertisements, we won't know about it anyway because it's subliminal. So I think the idea is not to shut our eyes and not see advertisements with subliminal messages - but to be able to see them and not be influenced by the subconscious signals. To be able to face the world - and still be conscious and in control of ourselves.

thorbiorn said:
About understanding dreams and sorting out the disinformation that may come in, I think it is not much different from how one counteracts disinformation for issues in the waking state. One uses reason, analysis, knowledge, networking, research, and intuition. And a desire for the truth about one self is helpful.
But you can do that with a non-lucid dream too. I don't see why you'd necessarily remember a lucid dream more than you would a non-lucid one.

My thought on this is that dreams are inherently subjective. The Work has to do with objective reality. What you do in your dreams has no real repercussions on anything. The "cause and effect" dynamic doesn't exist there. The real lessons for us are in the objective reality - where what we do has real consequences on ourselves and others allowing us to learn and progress. In that sense, being lucid in a dream isn't useful like being lucid in real life.

In fact, I think there's benefit to not being "lucid" in dreams. For most people dreams may be the closest thing they have to experiencing their own subconscious mind. So if you're always in control of your dream, maybe you're denying yourself the possibility of experiencing parts of you that you're not aware of while awake. I personally found it very useful sometimes to see that the way I may act in a dream is completely different than how I'd act in real life. There are parts of me that I didn't even know existed, but upon analysis of how I acted in a dream and why, I realized those parts did exist, and it was a sobering realization. And those parts actually did influence my behavior in real life, they were just able to come out in full force in a dream and to really show themselves.

So in that sense letting a dream just "happen" may be a good idea - especially because it is a dream so you cannot hurt anybody else (like you would in real life) by allowing your mechanicalness and little i's to come to the forefront and do what they want to do without your conscious interference. Then you wake up and realize it was a dream, which gives you a great opportunity to suddenly SEE all those i's you didn't even know were there.
 

TheSpoon

Jedi
Gimpy said:
The romantic interest stuff I've learned to change in the dream, or let it slide by as a temptation I'm not interested in.
I'm trying to let it slide by, but have not yet had indication of success. The "consequences free" environment is very tempting - which is a worry. I would hope to treat dream entities with the same respect that I would any other being.

That said, in the last few months I've found that I get 'popped out' of lucid/semi-lucid dreams if I try and 'force myself' on another entity. This sort of thing happening is discussed in the 2007 film "The Good Night"
_http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0484111/
Great cast, interesting (to me) topic of lucid dreaming, unfortunately an ultimately disappointing movie.

SOA said:
I don't see why you'd necessarily remember a lucid dream more than you would a non-lucid one.
I'm not sure why either, but it does seem to be the case in my experience; lucid dreams are remembered more completely with better clarity. Perhaps a dream has to be quite vivid ie one that would be better remembered anyway before it can become lucid.

SOA said:
My thought on this is that dreams are inherently subjective. The Work has to do with objective reality. What you do in your dreams has no real repercussions on anything.
...
it is a dream so you cannot hurt anybody else (like you would in real life)
But there are repercussions in terms of our memory of events - good and bad feelings about actions taken in a dream. I still feel guilty about something I did in a dream a few months ago (not that it's possible to claim there was any conscious 'choice' made there, and also feeling good about a dream where I was given too much change at a shop and went back to return the money. Regardless of level of awareness or environment we are still responsible for our actions aren't we?
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
thespoon said:
I would hope to treat dream entities with the same respect that I would any other being.

:nuts:

So, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds as if you are taking dreams for reality -- one cannot awaken if they are asleep.
 

Gimpy

The Living Force
anart said:
thespoon said:
I would hope to treat dream entities with the same respect that I would any other being.

:nuts:

So, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds as if you are taking dreams for reality -- one cannot awaken if they are asleep.

Maybe its another way of saying "I wouldn't even dream of doing ______." ?


To theSpoon:

Are you saying that consistency in behavior is the aim here? You do not want to treat others badly even in dreams? Is that close or am I off in lala land?
 

spyraal

Jedi Master
TheSpoon said:
Gimpy said:
The romantic interest stuff I've learned to change in the dream, or let it slide by as a temptation I'm not interested in.
I'm trying to let it slide by, but have not yet had indication of success. The "consequences free" environment is very tempting - which is a worry. I would hope to treat dream entities with the same respect that I would any other being.

That said, in the last few months I've found that I get 'popped out' of lucid/semi-lucid dreams if I try and 'force myself' on another entity.

I think the fact that you are trying to "force yourself on another entity" in your dream enviroment should become a very good opportunity for you to do some deeper self-observation on this matter. I do not consider a romantic dream "bad" for what it is -a dream-, but when some kind of "force" is also involved, maybe that should get your attention. What is behind this "uncontrolable" part of your -unconscious- psyche that is so needfull and predatory? Conscious reflection and mediation could shed some more light so as to make some good out of these experiences. :)

I would also like to mention here how important it is -in my view- for the "Matrix" to keep souled and conscious men and women from forming a couple, because if they succeed it might be easier for them to escape the "food chain" by being stronger that any single person can ever be. And dreams of the romantic kind or dreams bearing a "symbolism" when we are in the beginning of a relationship can become VERY distracting when choosing or approaching a potential partner. :/
 

D Rusak

Jedi Council Member
Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, but I did notice that while lucid dreaming (not something I've really ever tried to cultivate- I've always done this naturally- since childhood, without knowing that many people apparently couldn't do this) certain situations- especially ones involving social/romantic relationships, couldn't progress past a certain "point that couldn't happen in real-life", as it were. The dream would get blocked or stopped, then I would sort of "rewind" it, and re-run the scenario trying a different approach. I will say that it did give me some different options on how to interact with people that proved useful in real life.

Anyway, this thread has prompted me to try a different approach as far as lucid dreaming goes. For the last two weeks, whenever I realize I'm lucid dreaming, I try to wake myself up in real life. Yes, this interrupts my sleep cycle, but for whatever strange reason, I've been having more vivid recollections of dreams (even if the dreams themselves were pretty mundane), and more frequently (almost every night, even several times a night- as opposed to just a few times a month for remembering dreams). I'm keeping a brief dream journal of such to see if any insights are gained. I can't really see any patterns so far, to be honest. Usually when I wake up in this sort of a circumstance (e.g.- after lucid dreaming, as opposed to my alarm clock waking me up) I tend to feel more refreshed, which I suppose is useful. Anyway, I guess my point is- if one becomes "conscious" in a dream, why not use it to literally wake up?
Random musings, FWIW.
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
TheSpoon said:
But there are repercussions in terms of our memory of events - good and bad feelings about actions taken in a dream. I still feel guilty about something I did in a dream a few months ago (not that it's possible to claim there was any conscious 'choice' made there, and also feeling good about a dream where I was given too much change at a shop and went back to return the money.
But if you take a more analytical approach maybe you wouldn't feel guilty - like to realize that you weren't "all there", plus, nothing you did hurt anyone else. But maybe thinking about why you did that without judgement and guilt would be useful?

TheSpoon said:
Regardless of level of awareness or environment we are still responsible for our actions aren't we?
I'm not sure why we should be responsible for our actions in dreams if there are no repercussions on the "beings" there - who are all imaginary. Our dream actions can definitely give us a clue about aspects of ourselves but as far as responsibility goes I don't see a reason for it. I think I associate "responsibility" with "repercussions" - that we need to be responsible because what we do has consequences on others and the world at large. The only potential reason I can currently see to be "good" in a dream is simply as potentially a natural result of doing Work on yourself, which *may* reflect in how you act in dreams as well. But I'm not sure it makes sense to feel "responsible" for anything you do to anyone in a dream - you may feel surprised or disturbed that you did it, and that could motivate you to analyze yourself, I'm just not sure if "responsible" is the right word though, fwiw.
 

webglider

Dagobah Resident
thorbiorn said:
Quote from: thorbiorn
About understanding dreams and sorting out the disinformation that may come in, I think it is not much different from how one counteracts disinformation for issues in the waking state. One uses reason, analysis, knowledge, networking, research, and intuition. And a desire for the truth about one self is helpful.

The above quote from Thorbiorn reminded me of an episode in "The Iliad" in which a disinformation is sent in the form of a dream.

Background: Achilles, the greatest of Achaean warriors has been insulted by Agamemmnon, who despite being chieftain of all the Achaeans, is a coward and a greedy coward at that taking for himself spoils that should rightly belong to Achilles. In this particular incident Agamemnon punishes Achilles by taking Briseis, a slave girl whom Achilles claims to "love" as punishment for Achilles' lack of respect.

Achilles prays to mom, Thetis, to make his own side lose to dishonor Agamemnon by making him look like a fool.
Thetis does this by appealing to Zeus, who owes her a favor, to grant this wish. With great reluctance, (he's afraid of his wife Hera who supports the Achaeans), he agrees.

Zeus carries out his plan by sending a "murderous dream to Agamemnon."

The Dream:

"Go, murderous Dream, to the fast Achaean ships
and once you reach Agamemnon's shelter rouse him,
order him, word-for-word, exactly as I command.
Tell Atrides (Agamemnon), word-for-word, exactly as I command.
Tell Atrides (Agamemnon), to arm his long-haired Achaeans,
to attack at once, full force-
now he can take the broad streets of Troy.
The immortal gods who hold Olympus clash no more.
Hera's appeals have brought them all round and all agree
griefs are about to crush the men of Troy."

When Agamemnon awakens Homer says:

He thought he would take the city of Priam then.
that very day, the fool. How could he know what work the Father had in mind? The father,
still bent on plaguing the Argives, (Achaeans), and Trojans both
with wounds and groans in the bloody press of battle."

It seems from this that the Ancient Greeks (Celts?) were aware of use of dreams for General Law.

anart said:
. . . but I think one of the reasons that dreams are the best form of disinformation is the simple fact that they can strongly evoke emotions and most people are carried away by such things - so, again, there is a lot of power there to carry people more deeply into sleep, literally and figuratively.

anart said:
Of course it does - that's why it is such a powerful form of disinformation - a prison has many kinds of doors. The purpose of the General Law is to keep mankind in its place - dreaming and Dreaming are perfect for that.

In this case the effect of the dream was so strong that Agamemnon prevailed to disastrous effect, gravely weakening the morale and numbers of the Achaeans.

(Homer, "The Iliad" Translated by Robert Fagles Book Two
 

Buddy

The Living Force
I have a perspective on lucid dreaming that I haven't run across in this thread yet, so I thought I'd offer it for consideration for what it's worth.
Some years back, I ran across a theory of the subject that sounded quite reasonable. It was explained that the lucid dream was lucid because of the proximity of the dream state to waking consciousness. As a result of this proximity, the visual elements of the dream were simply that small part of waking consciousness intersecting the dream state and providing an interpretation of the 'emotions' that were being suppressed just below the surface within the individual at the time. The apparent ability of some measure of control of one's dream body was explained as the awareness of the individuals desire to participate in the process.
The fact that the lucid dream doesn't always go the way the dreamer wants, was explained as the incompatibility of the dreamers wish, with the particular interpretation effort going on by the consciousness.
I don't recall any effort to prove this theory, though, and I apologize for not being able to provide any references. It may even be that I've overlayed some wishful thinking on the theory as I recall it.
Even though I haven't been able to locate any sources to back up my post, It seems like I was studying various material on the psychological aspects of the 'Magikal' tradition as well as psychology from the 'objectivist' position at the time.

Is any of this information useful? I don't know. MY explorations turned out to be largely academic, but I thought this may add another angle to explore if desired.
 
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