What to do when you realise you're lucid dreaming

[TheSpoon]

To theSpoon:
Are you saying that consistency in behaviour is the aim here? You do not want to treat others badly even in dreams? Is that close or am I off in lala land?

Yes that's certainly true Gimpy, but I don't think that answer lets me off responding to Anart's question. ;)

I would hope to treat dream entities with the same respect that I would any other being.

So, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds as if you are taking dreams for reality -- one cannot awaken if they are asleep.

Hmm. Well I don't think I'm confusing dreams with Reality, but perhaps I am treating them as having some form of existence. I guess where I am at the moment is that I see myself as a collection of processes rather than a discrete, boundaried individual. I would not want to make assumptions about where I stop and everything else begins.

I've been thinking about my take on this over the weekend, knowing that it's probably not a very Objective one, so I'm bracing myself for some feedback on it. I came up with an analogy:

Imagine that (because we all need an income) you've taken a job as a tester at a firm that makes Virtual Reality simulators. Part of your daily test plan is a "Walk Through" where you spend an hour in a simulated environment doing anything you feel like doing just to check that the system does not crash. There are no logs kept of events, so you are in an apparently consequence free environment.

Given that you have choice about how to behave (in as much as anyone can say that they really have choice), what would you choose to do with that hour?

What I'm saying is that I think there are consequences to our actions regardless of the Reality (or not) of the environment experienced. A tester who chooses to indulge their predator on a daily basis would have a very different life experience from someone who chooses to behave in a moral way. That sort of choice has got to have an impact on your mental makeup (I hesitate to use the word Soul, but that's my line of thinking), in terms of guilt, desensitisation, habit-forming behaviours.

Another thing to ponder would be: can you be 100% sure that characters in the simulated environment have no wider existence? In failing to respect the free will of a computer generated character, what effect might that have on the computer running the simulation (eg if it was based on a neural net)? Or is it possible that another tester has entered the system and you would be interacting with a character that was linked to a real person - despite not actually being real themselves?

Didn't think I'd find myself arguing for the human rights of non-existent persons when I started this thread! Or to be a bi more PC about it: The sentient rights of non-existent entities.

But maybe thinking about why you did that without judgement and guilt would be useful?

Yes, I think it would be. Perhaps I have been criticising myself when I should instead be looking at/behind the motivation. Thanks.

 

[Adaryn]

Hi TheSpoon,

Imagine that (because we all need an income) you've taken a job as a tester at a firm that makes Virtual Reality simulators. Part of your daily test plan is a "Walk Through" where you spend an hour in a simulated environment doing anything you feel like doing just to check that the system does not crash. There are no logs kept of events, so you are in an apparently consequence free environment.

Given that you have choice about how to behave (in as much as anyone can say that they really have choice), what would you choose to do with that hour?

Why do you need a virtual environment to do that? You have the choice about how to behave every waking hour. I don't quite understand your point.
A person with conscience will behave accordingly, no matter if the environment is 'consequence-free' or not. A psychopath will only do what he wants to do no matter what.

What I'm saying is that I think there are consequences to our actions regardless of the Reality (or not) of the environment experienced.

I have difficulty understanding that part: consequences to our 'actions' in a non-existent environment ??

A tester who chooses to indulge their predator on a daily basis would have a very different life experience from someone who chooses to behave in a moral way. That sort of choice has got to have an impact on your mental makeup (I hesitate to use the word Soul, but that's my line of thinking), in terms of guilt, desensitisation, habit-forming behaviours.

For me, choices of how you're going to behave are made in real life, with real people, not in imaginary places with inexistent entities...

Another thing to ponder would be: can you be 100% sure that characters in the simulated environment have no wider existence? In failing to respect the free will of a computer generated character, what effect might that have on the computer running the simulation (eg if it was based on a neural net)? Or is it possible that another tester has entered the system and you would be interacting with a character that was linked to a real person - despite not actually being real themselves?

What about respecting, or failing to respect the free will of real human beings, in real everyday life?

Didn't think I'd find myself arguing for the human rights of non-existent persons when I started this thread! Or to be a bi more PC about it: The sentient rights of non-existent entities.

Don't want to sound harsh, but do you argue with the same passion for the right of existent persons in existing reality?
FWIW

 

[TheSpoon]

Hi Prayers for rain.

Why do you need a virtual environment to do that? You have the choice about how to behave every waking hour. I don't quite understand your point.

Well we're not taking about every waking hour, we're talking about dreaming. Specifically the fact that there is some illusion of choice (and possibly therefore personal responsibility) when one is lucid dreaming.

A person with conscience will behave accordingly, no matter if the environment is 'consequence-free' or not. A psychopath will only do what he wants to do no matter what.

SAO was suggesting that one could do what one wants when one is dreaming and use that to gain insight. I was responding to:

I'm not sure why we should be responsible for our actions in dreams if there are no repercussions on the "beings" there - who are all imaginary.

I agree that a person of conscience would respect the free will of others in a consequence-free environment, but in my case I think that would be because I'd feel guilty if I did otherwise (SAO got me thinking about this). If there truly is no harm done to any other being, then is that guilt appropriate? Is it just a program to be examined? Or would I be setting up a dangerous precedent to say "These beings don't exist, I can treat them however I want"?

What I'm saying is that I think there are consequences to our actions regardless of the Reality (or not) of the environment experienced.

I have difficulty understanding that part: consequences to our 'actions' in a non-existent environment ??

Anart was making the point that Dreams are Not Reality. VR can also be said to be Not Real. I'm saying that there may be consequences (even if just to the dreamer or the VR 'player') to the choices they make in these environments.

For me, choices of how you're going to behave are made in real life, with real people, not in imaginary places with inexistent entities...

Absolutely I agree, but given that one finds oneself in an imaginary place on a nightly basis with apparent choices to make, is there not room for discussion about how to behave there? Or does it not matter what we choose to do in our dreams?

What about respecting, or failing to respect the free will of real human beings, in real everyday life?

Far more important in my opinion, but I think we all agree that respecting the free will of real human beings is a Good Thing. I haven't seen anyone here suggest otherwise.

Don't want to sound harsh, but do you argue with the same passion for the right of existent persons in existing reality?

Was I being passionate? Heavens ;)
No I'm not big on promoting human rights although I contribute to two charities that do. I think if I were to get into that line of activity I would:
1. Be trying to change the behaviour of others and
2. Find that everyone I talk to agrees with what I'm saying since the people I'd really need to talk to (the ones that would disagree) would be out of my reach.
Besides, there are already people far more motivated and articulate than me on the case full time. But my posting was in response to be 'called' by Anart on saying that I "would hope to treat dream entities with the same respect that I would any other being", so it's more about me justifying that statement than it is about trying to convince others how best to behave.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Or would I be setting up a dangerous precedent to say "These beings don't exist, I can treat them however I want"?

I don't think it's a dangerous precedent because there is no danger to anyone in imaginationland. But I think you are misunderstanding what I meant. There is no "you" - you're a machine. So how the current "you" might wanna treat someone isn't the same for your other "you's". And it seems in a dream, parts of us that we're not aware of during the day can come out into the open. So in a dream you can do many really strange and bizarre things thinking it's perfectly normal and only upon awakening does your conscious mind get a chance to assess what you did and suddenly realize how bizarre it was and assume that you'd never do anything like that in real life. But in the dream you didn't know it was a dream - as far as you are concerned in a non-lucid dream, it WAS real life. So it would seem that yes, part of you is more than happy to do exactly those "bizarre" things in what it thinks is "real life" since you didn't realize it's not real till you woke up.

So the question isn't "what would you do in a consequence-free environment" but really "what would some of your i's do if you let them and turned off the rest of you for a moment?". And what better place to find out than in a consequence-free environment, like a dream? It's even better than a virtual-reality simulator - cuz instead of being pointless like some advanced video game, it seems to serve a more useful function - let you glimpse into yourself in ways that waking life never allows you. Although if you consciously do the Work then you will eventually be able to see those things even when awake.

So I don't think it's a dangerous precedent - you can't hurt what doesn't exist. However, if you're afraid to find out just what parts of you "want" to do if given the chance because you don't want to admit that those parts of you exist, then that might explain why you may think this is "dangerous".

Having said that, a separate question from the above is how would we act if we're consciously aware that we're in a fake environment with no real people or real consequences? This is not the same as a dream because in a dream we aren't aware that it is fake until we wake up. But would we act differently, and exactly how differently - and why? Because when you ask the question "These beings don't exist, I can treat them however I want?" it is interesting - just how do you "want" to treat beings that you know aren't real? When you said that it seems almost like you're implying that you don't treat people how you want to treat them BECAUSE they are real, but if they weren't, and you could treat them how you *want*, you'd be doing something else entirely.

And I'm not saying there's no difference between real and imaginary people, but the usefulness of looking into that question isn't out of concern for imaginary people, but simply to understand yourself better. And I think this is what you are confusing here - you're making imaginary people the "target" of this question and even considering a possibility that they have some real consciousness and all that. By doing this I think you're missing the point that it's not about them and how you treat them, but WHY you'd treat them a certain way - it's really about understanding yourself.

So there's 2 parts of that coin. One, how do we treat REAL people despite being machines and having very negative urges and motivations and drives? Do we have enough of a conscience to not let those parts be in full control? And the other part is - just exactly what are those negative urges and why do we have them and can we lessen them through the Work? And it seems dreams can assist in exploring/understanding the 2nd part, and by understanding it as part of the Work, we improve the first part, osit.

 

[Laura]

I think that a whole lot of energy is being wasted on thinking/planning/considering dreams. That energy would be better spent in a fully conscious state practicing "The Doctrine of the Present."

I have found dreams to be useful, but only when they come spontaneously in response to my waking work. (And they do come!) I have a lot of prophetic dreams and I also "metabolize" a lot of miscellaneous stuff in dreams.

I record interesting or "intense" dreams. I don't seek lucid dreams, but have had them. I don't find them to be particularly interesting. I think Buddy was correct in his comment that so-called "lucid dreaming" is just dreaming in a hypnopompic or hypnogogic state.

Finally, experience suggests that all the stuff that goes around about "lucid dreaming" is just distraction.

Dreams can be a complement to The Work, if you allow the subconscious to do what it does best. Otherwise, you're probably just wasting time and energy.

We never asked specifically about lucid dreaming in any session. Perhaps now is the time to do so?

 

[RedFox]

We never asked specifically about lucid dreaming in any session. Perhaps now is the time to do so?

If its appropriate to ask, then (from atleast a personal curiosity) I would like to know what they have to say about lucid dreaming.

Just before finding sott/the c's I was about to start 'learning' how to lucid dream and astral project. Having read the warning from the C's about astral projection I knocked that on the head, aswell as the idea of actively seeking to lucid dream.

I dream every night, usually more than one dream and have done for most of my life, so dreams are a big part of my life. I have been fascinated with them, and having had a few lucid dreams before finding sott got sold the idea that lucid dreams could be 'used' for something (spiritual advancement)

I notice in myself when reading about lucid dreaming, or the video game thread http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=129.0 similar things sturring. Control perhaps of my imediate environment.....my world.
Would the correct label for this be a sacred cow? I am uncertain if that fits, but it has the same attachment...the same desire to cling to it.
I am learning my best "The Doctrine of the Present" but have for years practiced "The Doctrine of Anywhere But the Present".......

 

[Craig]

I have found dreams to be useful, but only when they come spontaneously in response to my waking work. (And they do come!) I have a lot of prophetic dreams and I also "metabolize" a lot of miscellaneous stuff in dreams.

Do you have any ideas or theories about prophetic dreams? Particularly the insignificant ones... you mentioned having these regularly in a podcast, and it's the same with me. They've always left me wondering: what is the point?! It's really frustrating to be having visions of eating a bag of peanut M&Ms - something which you haven't eaten in years - and then being offered some the next day, yet not being able to foresee the lottery numbers that could really make a difference.

 

[Nienna]

I have found dreams to be useful, but only when they come spontaneously in response to my waking work. (And they do come!) I have a lot of prophetic dreams and I also "metabolize" a lot of miscellaneous stuff in dreams.

Do you have any ideas or theories about prophetic dreams? Particularly the insignificant ones... you mentioned having these regularly in a podcast, and it's the same with me. They've always left me wondering: what is the point?! It's really frustrating to be having visions of eating a bag of peanut M&Ms - something which you haven't eaten in years - and then being offered some the next day, yet not being able to foresee the lottery numbers that could really make a difference.

I know what you mean. Although, having prophetic dreams has not happened to me in a very long time, and when I did have them they usually were showing me that things having to do with my relationships with others. As in what the others were really doing.

Now, I seem to be having a plethora of deja vu for whatever reason. I will read something that I know I have already read, like something someone has just posted. It's rather disconcerting because I don't know if I just really have an active imagination or I'm going nuts.

 

[Craig]

Although, having prophetic dreams has not happened to me in a very long time, and when I did have them they usually were showing me that things having to do with my relationships with others. As in what the others were really doing.

The only ones that seemed to have any point (from what I can remember) happened quite recently: I would be randomly dreaming about my childhood friends with a deep sense of nostalgia and how simple and wonderful it all was. Then in the next day or two - after not seeing them for sooo long - there they'd be! Whether on the bus, walking towards me, in a shop... It's happened four times now, and on each occasion it's helped me in some way to deal with deep emotional issues and questions.

 

[agni]

> What to do when you realise you're lucid dreaming ?

Do what goes in parallel with work - try to wake up :)


In regards to prophetic dreams, sometimes i see some sort of "partial preview" of the following day (i am not sure if this can be called prophetic); most of the times i can't recall it right away, and would remember dream post factum. Sometimes i do get a feeling in the dream that i am being programmed. Makes me question if "prophetic" dreams i see that come true could be result of programming ? But again, feeling of being programmed in the dream makes it a dream too, right ? :)

 

[Al Today]

In regards to prophetic dreams, sometimes i see some sort of "partial preview" of the following day (i am not sure if this can be called prophetic); most of the times i can't recall it right away, and would remember dream post factum.

Perhaps this is one way the feeling of Deja Vu comes into play?

 

[Craig]

I'm reminded of what Mouravieff wrote about how in sleep, the lower intellect can become passive and stop stealing energy from the other centres, which allows them to function with their natural frequency. This would allow higher impressions to filter through from an awareness outside of time; still doesn't explain why the insignificant stuff though... Maybe it has something to do with the way time is, perhaps like the leaves of a book. Mechanical circumstances "down here" create the conditions for this influx of higher energy, and it causes a flash of precognition, and whatever is on the other side of the page (future time) in the exact same place, is what appears through the portal, so to speak.

Then there's this from Eugene Canseliet in Dwellings of the Philosophers:

The Adept, that is to say, as we have explained before, the man who possesses the Philosopher's Stone, is the only one capable of predicting that which might threaten his existence: illnesses, accidents, and especially, criminal violence. The philosopher who has not succeeded, no matter how close to the goal he may be, and no matter what science he may have acquired from the Great Work, including sometimes, one or more of the precious intermediary medicines, would not know how to reach, in an absolute and sovereign fashion, the faculty of penetrating the future nor that of reading the past.

So maybe when the fullest expression of this state of being is developed and fixed in the individual, they can intentionally choose to foresee events at whatever period because they can now see the whole book; it's no longer accidental. 

 

[agni]

In regards to prophetic dreams, sometimes i see some sort of "partial preview" of the following day (i am not sure if this can be called prophetic); most of the times i can't recall it right away, and would remember dream post factum.

Perhaps this is one way the feeling of Deja Vu comes into play?

i also ponder in this direction.

Could it be that one not seeing "future events" so to speak, but rather "suggestions" ? Which produce effect of Deja Vu when executed, since perhaps there is partial recollection of memory of such "suggestions" ?

 

[Laura]

From the Cs:

[quote Session 3 Sept 2008]

(...)
Q: ... I'd like to know exactly what is lucid dreaming?

A: Partly conscious awareness while other systems are still switched off and subconscious bleeds through. Can be hypnogogic or hypnopompic or "other" states.

Q: (L) Well, is it a useful state for finding out what's going on in your subconscious, or changing your reality or anything like that?

A: It can be useful for entertainment mainly.

Q: (L) So there are no outstanding benefits to be obtained from practicing so-called lucid dreaming?

A: Not really.

Q: (L) Anything else about lucid dreaming? (DD) I had one yesterday! (Ark) Cheap movies! (laughter)
(...)

 

[Tigersoap]

In regards to prophetic dreams, sometimes i see some sort of "partial preview" of the following day (i am not sure if this can be called prophetic); most of the times i can't recall it right away, and would remember dream post factum.

Perhaps this is one way the feeling of Deja Vu comes into play?

i also ponder in this direction.

Could it be that one not seeing "future events" so to speak, but rather "suggestions" ? Which produce effect of Deja Vu when executed, since perhaps there is partial recollection of memory of such "suggestions" ?

I sometimes get a lot of deja vu but I am not always clear if this was from a dream or not, but this is really interesting to consider.
Although i don't remember having had a dejà-vu that was in a really important situation, it is more like a hazy recollection of feelings, colours and undescriptible impressions, to me it's like remembering forward (but that does not mean i should be able to notice it in such time.).

I also wondered if, being mechanical as people are, what if in certain circumstances (?), you'd be able to see the course of your actions beforehand.
If you are not involved in any work on yourself, it must be pretty easy for those who can, to "forecast" or even "suggest" what will happen to you.
Maybe because you are doing the "work" it would shape your ability to perceive such loops, the less mechanical you are, the more free will you get to decide what you will DO, well until you see the whole deck in front of you.
I have a déjà vu of just stating the obvious .