Why the secrecy?

Laura said:
There is also an obvious reason why certain so-called esoteric groups do NOT get "attacked." Can anyone come up with the answer to why that might be?

:D I suppose the most obvious answer would be that they are 'owned', 'operated' or even 'initiated' by 3-4 density STS inc. They are run as a distraction to facilitate entropy and they are set up specifically to serve this function with or without the initiators conscious awareness. STS would not attack something that served their purposes unless it was no longer useful to them, or began to serve a purpose other than that of entropy.

In this was we can "see", albeit none too clearly, which groups are getting 'close' to something that STS doesn't want people to see and which groups are pretty much completely compromised - either from the begining or as they evolved. ;)
 
Can one not just say that they don't pose any threat, as they don't divulge any truth?

Edit: That's probably wrong - they divulge some truth, but not the whole picture, which is really the same - or worse!

That keeps anyone on the wrong track and fast asleep - that may be an oversimplification - but that comes to my mind first ...
 
All in all, it has been a very interesting organic development! In fact, the very dynamic of this discussion highlights some of the reasons for "secrecy" of certain groups. There is also an obvious reason why certain so-called esoteric groups do NOT get "attacked." Can anyone come up with the answer to why that might be?

They have no secrets to keep, only the illusion of one to keep the punters on the hook. :/ That's an observation though, from running into a few nutters. It was more like a control of information between people than any kind of 'woo woo secret'.


I don't understand how silence can be considered a secret....how is keeping one's mouth shut a secret? Am I missing the point? Why is not discussing the 4th way with people who don't know about it considered a secret?

Call me thick, but I'm not grokking this. :-[
 
If one passes knowledge on from one to the next, it doesn’t decrease in volume.

How is it known that knowledge doesn't decrease in volume when it is passed on? Consider that knowledge is actually being passed on... it would seem any dissipation would have to happen in a sincere group. It kind of makes me wonder how knowledge is used in a STO society. If all are sincere, and knowledge is freely distributed, is it up to each individual to know there own container? How would that work?

When the esoteric glossary was initially being developed, I had some aversion to it. I thought there was a value in learning the concepts on her or his own effort. The value seemed to be gained by an undefined effort. There seems something 'new' in 'trailblazing' ones own path. Perhaps that newness is connected to the materialness that Gurdjieff spoke of. However, time is growing short and there are more and more people looking for answers, so isn't is just as useful to provide the tools for those who are seeking them? I guess the question that it comes down to is if those tools become less effective if spread out? ...cause I'm not sure if that is the case in this network. Maybe the power of knowledge holds a force that is proportionate to those seeking it.
 
I wonder if another reason they don't get attacked is because they do a lot of rituals, and the C's said "ritual drains to 4thD STS". So maybe, as well as disinfo spreading and leading people down the wrong tracks, they're a good food source?
 
Los said:
How is it known that knowledge doesn't decrease in volume when it is passed on? Consider that knowledge is actually being passed on... it would seem any dissipation would have to happen in a sincere group. It kind of makes me wonder how knowledge is used in a STO society. If all are sincere, and knowledge is freely distributed, is it up to each individual to know there own container? How would that work?

I was thinking that, as a possibility, that the kind of “material knowledge” referred to here might be applied knowledge based on teachings that help us find our way back to our inner conscience. Possibly only a limited few are able to properly apply this knowledge (without expectation, wishful thinking and violation of free will) and it is only effective when properly applied. In this way a minuscule change in initial conditions could produce very large results (like for example in a transistor semiconductor where very small changes in input base current acts like a switch to produce much larger changes in collector or output current).

But in order to apply it there must be something, some quality substance within oneself that’s generated from some personal internal struggle that produces the ‘material’ to fuel the action and back it up. If there is no fuel, if there is no quality of energy available for transformation, then nothing can happen. Then there is no power behind the idea to produce any results of real objective value when it’s applied.

When the esoteric glossary was initially being developed, I had some aversion to it. I thought there was a value in learning the concepts on her or his own effort. The value seemed to be gained by an undefined effort. There seems something 'new' in 'trailblazing' ones own path. Perhaps that newness is connected to the materialness that Gurdjieff spoke of. However, time is growing short and there are more and more people looking for answers, so isn't is just as useful to provide the tools for those who are seeking them? I guess the question that it comes down to is if those tools become less effective if spread out? ...cause I'm not sure if that is the case in this network. Maybe the power of knowledge holds a force that is proportionate to those seeking it.

I think that’s an excellent point when you say: “the power of knowledge holds a force that is proportionate to those seeking it”.

This makes me think of the law of harnelmiatznel of Gurdjieff’s where the ‘higher blends with the lower to actualize the middle.’ As I interpret this law to mean (at least within this context) is that the ‘higher’ corresponds to an idea whose time has come (such as the idea of psychopathy) that ‘fits’ or nearly exactly corresponds to a need within the people who are now (at least in greater numbers) asking questions, unconsciously or more consciously, such as “what the HECK is going on around me and what’s causing it???,” even though they may only voice this question to themselves because they are afraid to speak of it aloud to their friends, family, coworkers, etc, because they instinctively fear the reactions of the General Law (or “the game of the Crafty One" as outlined by Mouravieff).

So the idea now has a force, a substance to it when it's needed. I think it’s kinda like a flame ‘needing’ the candle in order to burn.
 
Maybe the notion of knowledge decreasing in volume when passed far and wide has some truth in it, though maybe it isn't so cut and dry.

Maybe it has something to do with how we relay the important part of the message to eachother? We are all subjective and have subjective language to some extent, the general population to a higher. Like that game where people whisper something to eachother's ear and on the way the message changes (or not). At some point someone completely misunderstands the important part of the message and gets the wrong idea and starts promulgating it in his own way. At that point begins the process where the message is countered with something else.

I don't know, it's just one way I could visualize what Gurdjieff meant when he spoke of that. It's been a while though when I've read ISOTM, so I might remember/understand it wrong.

kenlee makes some good points too. Maybe in Gurdjieff's time people were not as receptive of truth (of psychopathy).
 
Gimpy said:
I don't understand how silence can be considered a secret....how is keeping one's mouth shut a secret? Am I missing the point? Why is not discussing the 4th way with people who don't know about it considered a secret?

Call me thick, but I'm not grokking this.  :-[
You are keeping a secret, namely that of the 4th Way and your involvement with same..? Beyond that, they don't know that you are keeping silent about something, and so the act of strategic enclosure is also a secret, since they don't know (and you don't reveal) that it is being done. And so, the secret is secret. And since the secret is secret, the fact that the secret is secret is secret. And the fact that the secret is secret is secret is also a secret, and ...



Los said:
Maybe the power of knowledge holds a force that is proportionate to those seeking it.
Gurdjieff spoke of knowledge and being, and the understanding of knowledge being proportional to your being. The increasing of this understanding would then be connected to the functioning of the emotional center (when it does something else than dreaming), which would then add something new. And as my emotional center has begun to ever so slowly wake up from its deep sleep, I have experienced new realizations, made new "connections", gained new perspective going over things I had read before.

Then there is also Castaneda and "don Juan", who said:
     "It doesn't matter what one reveals or what one keeps to oneself," he said. "Everything we do,
everything we are, rests on our personal power. If we have enough of it, one word uttered to us
might be sufficient to change the course of our lives. But if we don't have enough personal
power, the most magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't
make a damn bit of difference."

Los said:
When the esoteric glossary was initially being developed, I had some aversion to it.  I thought there was a value in learning the concepts on her or his own effort.  The value seemed to be gained by an undefined effort.  There seems something 'new' in 'trailblazing' ones own path.  Perhaps that newness is connected to the materialness that Gurdjieff spoke of.  However, time is growing short and there are more and more people looking for answers, so isn't is just as useful to provide the tools for those who are seeking them?   I guess the question that it comes down to is if those tools become less effective if spread out? ...cause I'm not sure if that is the case in this network.
My perspective is that it doesn't matter so much whether one reads about a concept in the Glossary or in one of the relevant esoteric sources. Understanding it is a matter greater than merely reading it. My understanding now of the same material is not the same as it was half a year ago. (and will probably continue to change. reading about the "Thresholds" and "Staircase", for instance, my understanding now is clearer than it used to be, and I see more clearly what I have not achieved, and so I now know better where I am) And as I read different sources, I suddenly arrive at mental connections between different concepts I have read of, or find myself applying a concept to a certain matter beyond what is discussed in the immediate context where the concept is presented in the text.

Even if you read material handed to you without much effort on your own part, there are efforts to be made in bringing it all together and getting everything you can out of it. Gaining perspective, hammering out the borders of one's mind and changing (by seeing beyond) one's old assumptions, it seems to me, remains a matter of individual "trailblazing" regardless of how much one reads. (certainly, at times I have been reading and nothing in particular has stuck in my mind, and I have had to re-read later and make new efforts to understand. this makes it clear to me that even if served on a platter, the text doesn't do all the job for you)


And finally, on a roundabout note, since this seems to have become a general topic of this thread at present, there is what the C's said about knowledge and the matter thereof (pun intended):
Q: (L) Does knowledge have a substance or an existence apart from its possession or its acceptance?
A: Knowledge has all substance. It goes to the core of all existence.
Q: (L) So acquiring knowledge includes adding substance to one's being?
A: Indeed. It includes adding everything to one's being that is desirable. And also, when you keep invoking the light, as you do, truly understand that the light is knowledge. That is the knowledge which is at the core of all existence. And being at the core of all existence it provides protection from every form of negativity in existence. Light is everything and everything is knowledge and knowledge is everything. ... Now all you need is the faith and realization that acquiring of knowledge is all you need.
 
Gimpy said:
I don't understand how silence can be considered a secret....how is keeping one's mouth shut a secret? Am I missing the point? Why is not discussing the 4th way with people who don't know about it considered a secret?

This discussion is SO interesting. Your comment above, Gimpy, led me to some insights about my own life:

From a young age, I learned the wisdom of "keeping my own counsel" -- what I now know is called "strategic enclosure". As a result, sometimes those I had close relationships with complained that I was "secretive" by nature. At the time, like you, I objected to the use of that word; to me, not laying out ALL of myself before another did not amount to being "secretive". In fact, I frequently would say, quite sincerely, "Hey, I'm an open book -- if there's something you want to know, just ask, and I'll tell you." To those who really wanted to know -- knew what to ask, and how to ask -- I did not hesitate to reveal myself, openly and honestly. But to those who didn't, well, it felt like throwing pearls to swine -- offering something valuable about myself to someone who might fail to appreciate it.

Recalling this, I realize this is what is meant by "Give ALL to those who ASK". And why volunteering information about our spiritual lives, and the Work in particular, is also like throwing pearls before swine -- in essence devaluing both ourselves and the Work, by offering it to those who are probably not able to appreciate and use it, who are likely to stomp all over it.

But I still don't like the word "secret". If I am keeping something SECRET from you, I am deliberately WITHHOLDING something you want to know. But if you don't want to know -- i.e. do not ASK -- I'm not withholding, I'm simply not giving something that has not been asked for.

That's a good motto for those trying to pursue the Work:

"Do not give that which has not been requested. But when asked, give ALL."
 
pepperfritz said:
But I still don't like the word "secret". If I am keeping something SECRET from you, I am deliberately WITHHOLDING something you want to know. But if you don't want to know -- i.e. do not ASK -- I'm not withholding, I'm simply not giving something that has not been asked for.

I think the term 'secret' in the context used is based more on 'wanting to know' rather than actually asking; doesn't that seem to be the case?
 
PepperFritz said:
Gimpy said:
I don't understand how silence can be considered a secret....how is keeping one's mouth shut a secret? Am I missing the point? Why is not discussing the 4th way with people who don't know about it considered a secret?

This discussion is SO interesting. Your comment above, Gimpy, led me to some insights about my own life:

From a young age, I learned the wisdom of "keeping my own counsel" -- what I now know is called "strategic enclosure". As a result, sometimes those I had close relationships with complained that I was "secretive" by nature. At the time, like you, I objected to the use of that word; to me, not laying out ALL of myself before another did not amount to being "secretive". In fact, I frequently would say, quite sincerely, "Hey, I'm an open book -- if there's something you want to know, just ask, and I'll tell you." To those who really wanted to know -- knew what to ask, and how to ask -- I did not hesitate to reveal myself, openly and honestly. But to those who didn't, well, it felt like throwing pearls to swine -- offering something valuable about myself to someone who might fail to appreciate it.

Recalling this, I realize this is what is meant by "Give ALL to those who ASK". And why volunteering information about our spiritual lives, and the Work in particular, is also like throwing pearls before swine -- in essence devaluing both ourselves and the Work, by offering it to those who are probably not able to appreciate and use it, who are likely to stomp all over it.

But I still don't like the word "secret". If I am keeping something SECRET from you, I am deliberately WITHHOLDING something you want to know. But if you don't want to know -- i.e. do not ASK -- I'm not withholding, I'm simply not giving something that has not been asked for.

That's a good motto for those trying to pursue the Work:

"Do not give that which has not been requested. But when asked, give ALL."


Thanks pepper. This is a clearer picture of what I'm thinking about. Hubby and I were discussing this 'secret' issue today, and I think he said it best:

"Why should you waste your time trying to explain something they a) don't care about and b) wouldn't understand, because they're too mad at you for wasting their time. Its like me trying to explain how my software programs work when all you want me to do is tell you what came in the mail."

I don't discuss spiritual things with anyone outside my Hubby and here. There's no point. Its not keeping secrets, its having basic common sense.

Or so I think.
 
Csayeursost said:
Gurdjieff spoke of knowledge and being, and the understanding of knowledge being proportional to your being.

ISOTM said:
One of the reasons for the divergence between the line of knowledge and the line of being in life, and the lack of understanding which is partly the cause and partly the effect of this divergence, is to be found in the language which people speak. This language is full of wrong concepts, wrong classifications, wrong associations. And the chief thing is that, owing to the essential characteristices of ordinary thinking, that is to say, to its vagueness and inaccuracy, every word can have thousands of different meanings according to the material the speaker has at his disposal and the complex of associations at work in him at the moment. People do not clearly realize to what a degree their language is subjective, that is, what different things each of them says while using the same words. They are not aware that each one of them speaks in a language of his own, understanding other people's language either vaguely or not at all, and having no idea that each one of them speaks in a language unknown to him. People have a very firm conviction, or belief, that they speak the same language, that they understand one another. Actually, this conviction has no foundation whatever. The language in which they speak is adapted to practical life only. People can communicate to one another information of a practical character, but as soon as they pass to a slightly more complex sphere they are immediately lost, and they cease to understand one another, although they are unconscious of it. People imagine that they often, if not always, understand one another or want to; they imagine that they understand the authors of the books they read and that other people understand them. This also is one of the illusions which peole create for themselves and in the midst of which they live. As a matter of fact, no one understands anyone else. Two men can same thing with profound conviction but call it by different names, or argue endlessly together without suspecting that they are thinking exactly the same. Or, vice versa, two men can say the same words and imagine that they agree with, and understand, one another, whereas they are actually saying absolutely different things and do not understand one another in the least.
.............

For exact understanding exact language is necessary. And the study of systems of ancient knownledge begins with the study of a language which will make it possible to establish at once exactly what is being said, from what point of view, and in what connection. This new language contains hardly any new terms or new nomenclature, but it bases the construction of speech upon a new principle, namely, the principle of relativity; that is to say, it introduces relativity into all concepts and thus makes possible an accurate determination of the angle of thought-for what precisely ordinary language lacks are expressions of relativity.

When a man has mastered this language, then, with its help, there can be transmitted and communicated to him a great deal of knowledge and information which cannot be transmitted in ordinary language even by using all possible scientific and philosophical terms.

The fundamental property of the new language is that all ideas in it are concentrated around one idea, that is they are taken in their mutual relationship from the point of view of one idea. This idea is the idea of evolution. Of course, not evolution in the sense of mechanical evolution, because such an evolution does not exist, but in the sense of a conscious and volitional evolution, which alone is possible.

Everything in the world, from solar systems to man, and from man to atom, either rises or descends, either evolves or degenerates, either develops or decays. But nothing evolves mechanically. That which cannot evolve consciously-degenerates. Help from outside is possible only in so far as it is valued and accepted, even if it is only by feeling in the beginning.

..........

The division of man into seven categories, or seven numbers, explains thousands of things which otherwise cannot be understood. This division gives the first conception of relativity as applied to man. This may be one thing or another thing according to the kind of man from whose point of view, or in relation to whom, they are taken.

In accordance with this, all the inner and all the outer manifestations of man, all that belongs to man, and all that is created by him, is also divided into seven categories.

It can now be said that there exists a knowledge number one, based on imitation or upon instincts, or learned by heart, crammed or drilled into a man. Number one, if he is man number one in the full sense of the term, learns everything like a parrot or a monkey.

The knowledge of man number two is merely knowledge of what he likes; what he does not like he does not know. Always and in everything he wants something pleasant. Or, if he is a sick man, he will, on the contrary, know only what he dislikes, what repels him and what evokes in him fear, horror, and loathing.

The knowledge of man number three is knowledge based upon subjectively logical thinking, upon words, upon literal understanding. It is the knowledge of bookworms, of scholastics. Men number three, for example, have counted how many times each letter of the Arabic alphabet is repeated in the Koran of Mohammed, and upon this have based a whole system of interpretation of the Koran.

The knowledge of man number four is a very different kind of knowledge. It is knowledge which comes from man number five, who in turn receives it from man number six, who has received it from man number seven. But of course, man number four assimilates of this knowledge only what is possible according to his powers. But, in comparison with man number one, man number two, and man number three, man number four has begun to get free from the subjective elements in his knowledge and to move along the path towards objective knowledge.

The knowledge of man number five is whole, indivisible knowledge. He has now one indivisible I and all his knowledge belongs to this I. He cannot have one I that knows something which another does not know. What he knows, the whole of him knows. His knowledge is nearer to objective knowledge than the knowledge of man number four.

The knowlege of man number six is the complete knowledge possible to man; but it can still be lost.

The knowledge of man number seven is his own knowledge, which cannot be taken away from him; it is the objective and completely practical knowledge of All.
 
Los said:
I think the term 'secret' in the context used is based more on 'wanting to know' rather than actually asking; doesn't that seem to be the case?

How do those who "want to know" express their desire to know? They ask -- yes?
 
Black Swan, I am very glad you brought up the aspect of construction and use of language.

I started this thread because I feel I'm possibly on the verge of starting down this Path, and I'm scared and also still have a lot of confusion. I estimate that right now I'm probably something around man "3.1" (the .1 being that I've started reading and understanding a few concepts of how to clear the head).

The use of language, particularly written language, has been one of the uppermost things in my mind regarding "Secrecy". I've got a load of books now from the reading list and have perused some to get a feel, and started the Gnosis series based on a recommendation. But, some verbiage in Gnosis seems to suggest the author is stating something akin to "That is all I'm allowed to say for now". Wierd. Also, in the cathedrals book by Fulcanelli, the intros practically scream that the whole thing is a masterwork of knowledge but it is encoded such that you can't even begin to understand its real precepts. Again the "Secrecy".

Even in the descriptions in Cathedrals, it is mentioned that certain things are the "Green Language" or maybe the "Language of the Birds". For a fetus like me, that just seems to be more secrecy. And at the end of the book it says to keep silent. Wierd!

I have bought and read a lot of Laura's published works, as well as her online works. There are mentions of organizations, brotherhood of the snake, good and bad groups, etc. Now whether or not these groups have been infiltrated and corrupted, and whether or not they are now good or bad (STO or STS), I am assuming that some of them started with real knowledge and good intent. Why then would they need to form a group and keep secrets? Or maybe they didn't? They just accepted people in that asked?

Given what I have personally been through and am still going through, I can certainly understand wanting to keep my head down to avoid stuff like I'm getting (if they are actually some kind of attacks vs just bad luck). But for me that doesn't fill the whole picture. The quote from G. mentioned earlier in the thread helps round it out more, but I still fill there are some parts missing.

And I will admit to quite a bit of frustration too. As I said, I seem to be a Man 3 roughly. So when I read stuff that has the word "Light is knowledge" etc. my head goes in circles wondering if I should take that literally or if it is more of one of these "Secret" languages?

Another instance is the talk about alchemy and if, in the material sense, the right material is made they will see a "star" on the surface. Implication is also made to the "star" that lead the three wise men. Also I read something that implied that if the reader actually had the hidden knowledge, they would understand what it means in the Bible where the veil of the temple was rent ( or something like that ).

All the above seems to me at my stage to be "Secret". I can take the words and look them up in a dictionary and substitute the meanings and it still doesn't help. They seem to be all "coded up" in allegories, parables, myths, etc.

So, I'm staring down the road at committing towards something (The Work - 4th Way), that has a tremendous amount of confusion, secrecy, and overly subtle language to it that doesn't seem to fully fit the reasons we have fleshed out in this thread.

Ignore this question if it is inappropriate but, have any of you folks further down the way started to understand for instance the cathedrals book in its deeper meaning? Have you known when you have reached a certain level that you were there and things that were written down now make more sense in a deeper meaning? Are there super advanced people on this forum who post in obscure language that is part of the work we should "decipher".

I beg pardon and forebearance for the sense of fear and frustration that has crept in above, but this thread has been so rich and helpful to me that I was just bursting to post this. My friends, please feel free to hold a huge focusing mirror up to me / this post.
 
PepperFritz said:
Los said:
I think the term 'secret' in the context used is based more on 'wanting to know' rather than actually asking; doesn't that seem to be the case?

How do those who "want to know" express their desire to know? They ask -- yes?

[Responding in general here, but quoting Pepperfritz's thought and adding my own thoughts on the subject of asking. This post veers kinda off topic. Apologies.]

They ask, with you as the perceptor of them asking.

And therein lies the rub.

How do you make sure that they are asking something that is close to what you think they are asking for, something that may be far away from your wholly made up desires, acquired experiences and limited understanding of the World, and crucially, dependent on your part, of understanding THEIR internal perception of the world? (Babel, anyone?)

A rapprochement of common understanding, an overlap of "perception matrices" isn't enough. The work here is to establish overlap as a first step to understand each other, all the while being anti-septic with regards to any "outflow" of the perceptor that results from desires, programs, etc. (such as what it means to you to help someone, at a minimum, is it a deep desire that blinds?).

You gotta tread lightly, but tread you must, in order to learn.

Yes, mistakes will be made, and you'll bite your fist in regret, and then you keep going, refining your understanding, calibrating your reading instrument. All the while asking forgiveness to those who you may have transgressed in ignorance: the transgressions being measured only by yourself and those ones that cause regret, feed the fire. If you can't perceive a possible transgression, there's no fire. Therein lies one issue: knowing beyond your perception when a transgression occurs. Chicken and the egg, eh?

The key point is in understanding just how far "transgressions are measured only by yourself" when someone "asks". If you have no doubt, you're kidding yourself. Full stop. Turn around, leave it, back off, go home. You aren't paying attention.

If you can get clear of that first step, THEN you may be able to see what they are asking for. And that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Cheers.
 
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