Why the secrecy?

[anart]

Re: Creativity in an STS world

I didn't say I saw insults, breaking down of the ego by group pressure, yes.  I'm not insulted or righteously indignant. I'm not personally offended.

Interesting, since the wording you've used certainly seemed to be rather negatively emotionally charged.  Also, there is no 'breaking down of the ego by group pressure' - as I stated earlier, that is not the point.

 

I was being neither snide nor sarcastic, your reading instrument must be off. 

It certainly could be, and if you truly had no intention of being sarcastic about your 'present state of imperfection', then my sincere apologies.

Hopefully, at this point, you do understand that Bernhard is neither being pressured, nor given no choice nor being rushed on anything as if he has not been given 'time'.  

 

[Beau]

Anart, I know you've written it many times, but what is "dreaming you are a magician."? And in relation to Bernhard, what was meant by it? :)

From ISOTM:

There was an evil magician. He lived deep in the mountains and the forests, and he had thousands of sheep. But the problem was that the sheep were afraid of the magician because every day the sheep were seeing that one of them was being killed for his breakfast, another was being killed for his lunch. So they ran away from the magician's ranch and it was a difficult job to find them in the vast forest. Being a magician, he used magic.

He hypnotized all the sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned, that, on the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant; secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them; and in the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it.

He then told different sheep...to some, "You are a man, you need not be afraid. It is only the sheep who are going to be killed and eaten, not you. You are a man just like I am." Some other sheep were told, "You are a lion -- only sheep are afraid. They escape, they are cowards. You are a lion; you would prefer to die than to run away. You don't belong to these sheep. So when they are killed it is not your problem. They are meant to be killed, but you are the most loved of my friends in this forest." In this way, he told every sheep different stories, and from the second day, the sheep stopped running away from the house.

They still saw other sheep being killed, butchered, but it was not their concern. Somebody was a lion, somebody was a tiger, somebody was a man, somebody was a magician and so forth. Nobody was a sheep except the one who was being killed. This way, without keeping servants, he managed thousands of sheep. They would go into the forest for their food, for their water, and they would come back home, believing always one thing: "It is some sheep who is going to be killed, not you. You don't belong to the sheep. You are a lion -- respected, honored, a friend of the great magician." The magician's problems were solved and the sheep never ran away again.

 

[anart]

Anart, I know you've written it many times, but what is "dreaming you are a magician."? And in relation to Bernhard, what was meant by it?  :)

It refers to the story of the Evil Magician as told by Gurdjieff  - ahh, I see Pinkerton has supplied it.  The following is what Gurdjieff was discussing before he told the story:

To awaken means to realize one's nothingness, that is to realize one's
complete and absolute mechanicalness and one's complete and absolute
helplessness.

And it is not sufficient to realize it philosophically in words. It is
necessary to realize it in clear, simple, and concrete facts, in one's own
facts.

When a man begins to know himself a little he will see in himself many
things that are bound to horrify him. So long as a man is not horrified at
himself he knows nothing about himself.

A man has seen in himself something that horrifies him. He decides to throw
it off, stop it, put an end to it. But however many efforts he makes, he
feels that he cannot do this, that everything remains as it was.

Here he will see his impotence, his helplessness, and his nothingness; or
again, when he begins to know himself a man sees that he has nothing that is
his own, that is, that all that he has regarded as his own, his views,
thoughts, convictions, tastes, habits, even faults and vices, all these are
not his own, but have been either formed through imitation or borrowed from
somewhere ready-made.

In feeling this a man may feel his nothingness. And in feeling his
nothingness a man should see himself as he really is, not for a second, not
for a moment, but constantly, never forgetting it.

"This continual consciousness of his nothingness and of his helplessness
will eventually give a man the courage to 'die,' that is, to die, not merely
mentally or in his consciousness, but to die in fact and to renounce
actually and forever those aspects of himself which are either unnecessary
from the point of view of his inner growth or which hinder it.

These aspects are first of all his 'false I,' and then all the fantastic
ideas about his 'individuality,' 'will,' 'consciousness,' 'capacity to do,'
his powers, initiative, determination, and so on.

"But in order to see a thing always, one must first of all see it even if
only for a second.

All new powers and capacities of realization come always in one and the same
way. At first they appear in the form of flashes at rare and short moments;
afterwards they appear more often and last longer until, finally, after very
long work they become permanent.

The same thing applies to awakening. It is impossible to awaken completely
all at once. One must first begin to awaken for short moments.

But one must die all at once and forever after having made a certain effort,
having surmounted a certain obstacle, having taken a certain decision from
which there is no going back.

This would be difficult, even impossible, for a man, were it not for the
slow and gradual awakening which precedes it.

"But there are a thousand things which prevent a man from awakening, which
keep him in the power of his dreams. In order to act consciously with the
intention of awakening, it is necessary to know the nature of the forces
which keep man in a state of sleep.

So, when I use the phrase, 'dreaming you are a magician', I basically mean that not only is a person a sheep awaiting the slaughter who considers himself a man, but he considers himself a knowledgeable, powerful or 'magic' man, when all the while, he is nothing but a sleeping sheep.  We are all - until we awaken - sleeping sheep who serve as a food source for 'unseen farmers' - believing we are magicians (or lions, or men, or democrats, or republicans, or ..... )  keeps us in our place - keeps us as food, trapped in illusion. (it's not an insult, it is part and parcel of our 'unnatural' existence)

 

[Myth of Myself]

So, when I use the phrase, 'dreaming you are a magician', I basically mean that not only is a person a sheep awaiting the slaughter who considers himself a man, but he considers himself a knowledgeable, powerful or 'magic' man, when all the while, he is nothing but a sleeping sheep. We are all - until we awaken - sleeping sheep who serve as a food source for 'unseen farmers' - believing we are magicians (or lions, or men, or democrats, or republicans, or ..... ) keeps us in our place - keeps us as food, trapped in illusion. (it's not an insult, it is part and parcel of our 'unnatural' existence)

Do you Anart, feel that you have "awakened"? Are you awake enough to pass judgement on others through this medium of communication? Objectively, can you not see the limitations of communicating through this method?

Your comment in this post:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10606.60
"You see, the world is on fire - literally - and what we are doing here is trying to wake up as many people as possible before they are consumed in flames."

Seems to be the very definition of "self importance" that you preach we should get over.

Unless you meticulously work through the meaning and definition of each word used in communication with those who are exchanging words, there will always be mis-communications using this method.

There is a danger in working with absolutes in such a limited form of communication. Not to mention an abundance of speculation as far as the meaning of the 2d words your eyes can see here.

How can you play the role of a judge without the possiblity of fault or of miscalculation, speculation?

Can you sum me up in so few words? Define who I am so easily without having ever looked into my eyes or shared a living moment other than the display of a smiley as a stand in for the display of a true emotion?

Be careful not to work yourself into an isolated exsistence, why not delete your profile on this forum and be free of the persona "Anart" that means so much to you?

It seems to have become a role of judge and jury. And the very thing that is standing in the way of you facing your "self".

:)

 

[Tigersoap]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

Yes, Tigersoap and Miss Isness, you both really wandered into left field with this and wholly missed the context. Now, why is that? Projection? Were you so focused on yourself and how it might apply to you that you missed the line of force in the conversation?

I apologize for having disturbed the previous thread, I indeed reacted very emotionally and took everything personaly because I've been quite on an emotional rollercoaster lately and instead of letting it cool off I let the horses carry me away.
I missed the whole context but in the heat of the moment I could not think straight.
Well, to think of it I feel askew all the time and I don't really know what's going on with me.

 

[foofighter]

Your comment in this post:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10606.60
"You see, the world is on fire - literally - and what we are doing here is trying to wake up as many people as possible before they are consumed in flames."

Seems to be the very definition of "self importance" that you preach we should get over.

Giving answers to those who ask questions is not the problem. The problem comes when we assume that we "are" the answers, that there is something "important" in us for being able to communicate the answer, which leads to a sense of importance of self in the whole process. When we mistake the message for ourselves and overestimate our own abilities.

Unless you meticulously work through the meaning and definition of each word used in communication with those who are exchanging words, there will always be mis-communications using this method.

That is why it is so important that each participant here works consciously on increasing his/her own objectivity, and work to get an understanding of the words, and then practice external consideration when using them. Excruciatingly hard, but that's what's necessary, I think.

How can you play the role of a judge without the possiblity of fault or of miscalculation, speculation?

There is a difference between being a "judge" and simply pointing out the obvious. If you see a car and say "hey, a car", that's not a judgment, that's just an observation. In my view, Anart was just pointing out the obvious.

Can you sum me up in so few words? Define who I am so easily without having ever looked into my eyes or shared a living moment other than the display of a smiley as a stand in for the display of a true emotion?

What I have noticed myself with these things is that quite often you don't need to know exactly how someone acquired a particular problem (be they physical, emotional or psychological), only that they have them, and then knowing how to treat the problem. This is one of those cases I think.

 

[Miss Isness]

Re: Creativity in an STS world

I didn't say I saw insults, breaking down of the ego by group pressure, yes. I'm not insulted or righteously indignant. I'm not personally offended.

Interesting, since the wording you've used certainly seemed to be rather negatively emotionally charged. Also, there is no 'breaking down of the ego by group pressure' - as I stated earlier, that is not the point.

I was being neither snide nor sarcastic, your reading instrument must be off.

It certainly could be, and if you truly had no intention of being sarcastic about your 'present state of imperfection', then my sincere apologies.

Hopefully, at this point, you do understand that Bernhard is neither being pressured, nor given no choice nor being rushed on anything as if he has not been given 'time'.

Hi Anart,

My wording is simply a negation of your previous assertions, nothing more. I was not at all sarcastic about my present state of imperfection and was acutely aware that I could be making a big mistake by expressing my thoughts openly. I felt sad about the possibility of losing the opportunity to learn here, and when I came back today I was actually shaking with fear.

I'm glad that Bernard has time to reflect, and truly hope that I have not deterred him from seeing the truth about himself.

 

[ana]

Do you Anart, feel that you have "awakened"? Are you awake enough to pass judgement on others through this medium of communication?

Myth, Do you?...Could you please provide the quote where Anart is judging.

Objectively, can you not see the limitations of communicating through this method?

Think the limitation is not in the method but in our conscience.

Your comment in this post:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10606.60
"You see, the world is on fire - literally - and what we are doing here is trying to wake up as many people as possible before they are consumed in flames."

Myth, don't you see, you are refering to something Anart wrote to YOU...Why don't you reply to what Anart says directly and objectively?

Seems to be the very definition of "self importance" that you preach we should get over.

Again, Why don't you reply to what Anart says directly and objectively?

Unless you meticulously work through the meaning and definition of each word used in communication with those who are exchanging words, there will always be mis-communications using this method.

Why do you think Anart is not doing it already?

There is a danger in working with absolutes in such a limited form of communication. Not to mention an abundance of speculation as far as the meaning of the 2d words your eyes can see here.

Who is working with absolutes? Anart is going directly to the cross of the matter in this singular event, just in this singular event..

How can you play the role of a judge without the possiblity of fault or of miscalculation, speculation?

Myth why do you think she is a judge who never mistake...?

Can you sum me up in so few words? Define who I am so easily without having ever looked into my eyes or shared a living moment other than the display of a smiley as a stand in for the display of a true emotion?

Myth, sure is not Anart intent to define who you are, however this is what you are doing with her...

Be careful not to work yourself into an isolated exsistence, why not delete your profile on this forum and be free of the persona "Anart" that means so much to you?

Just because me, and sure many others here appreciate enormously her daily effort.

It seems to have become a role of judge and jury. And the very thing that is standing in the way of you facing your "self".

:)

When I arrived here, very recently , first felt as you do now, but work is everything in my life so I tried to see the truth I was hiding myself and start to read carefully what Anart and many other members write.
Myth I discovered in some members an unshakable will, and the enough strong to rip veils without closing eyes, Anart is one of them.
Can you see how unfair are your words?

 

[spyraal]

Do you Anart, feel that you have "awakened"? Are you awake enough to pass judgement on others through this medium of communication? Objectively, can you not see the limitations of communicating through this method?

I am sorry MoM but the question is not whether Anart considers herself "awakened" or not. Where does this matter here? How is that related to the value of the content of Anart's comments? Do you accept mirroring only from "certified awakened people" and who gives such "certificates"? This line of thinking can become an ideal excuse for disregarding what is not convenient for the ego. Isn't through "friction" and "heat" that esoteric work is done? In terms of doing esoteric work, anyone or anything that can raise your "inner heat" is providing you a service if you are Working. So IMO the question is rather: do you find somebody's comments substantiated and "heat raising", and thus usefull and worth considering? Can you tell the difference between mirroring and passing judgement? But even in the occasions when we do get judged by people, don't you see that this is an opportunity to self observe and see how mechanically and emotionally we react? Uncontrolled and overblown emotions can hinder learning, as they waste our time by our feeling offended and having to be on defence with no real reason, thus missing a critical learning point.

How can you play the role of a judge without the possibility of fault or of miscalculation, speculation?
Can you sum me up in so few words? Define who I am so easily without having ever looked into my eyes or shared a living moment other than the display of a smiley as a stand in for the display of a true emotion?
Be careful not to work yourself into an isolated exsistence, why not delete your profile on this forum and be free of the persona "Anart" that means so much to you?
It seems to have become a role of judge and jury. And the very thing that is standing in the way of you facing your "self".

This is but your subjective opinion MoM, and IMHO it seems quite biased by Anart's spot on mirroring on you in the " Are you voting & why?" thread. Our face in the mirror is often not what we wish or believe it to be. The sight of our mirrored face might "hurt" us. And some mirrors reflect deeper than others. If you have followed this forum for a while and still have that an opinion about Anart, i cannot but wonder why are you here, and what do you consider to be the benefit from your experience in this forum. What really? Considering your above comments about "personas", "judge and jury" etc. i am -personaly- left with few guesses. And obviously you are not in a position to suggest to a moderator of this -or any- forum to delete his profile so as not to "work himself into an isolated existance"! Doesn't this sound like an awful lot of "self-importance" on your side?

And do not rush to underestimate this means of communication, just because "we cannot look each other in the eyes". This way -among other things- we don't fall each other's physical communication charms, we have a written record of ourselves while we grow through networking, and we are more responsible for our "signal" as we have ample time to try to find the exact words that express our views. That last thing is what makes your above rattle against Anart even shocking in my humble opinion... :( It is about your choice of words.

Funny enough, I recall from a past thread when some new member actually asked if Anart was a real person or some program or a kind of AI (Artificial Intelligence)! But i will only comment that this is the paradoxical nature of our times: when we interact with a person that -among his/her other potential flaws- has gained consistency in thinking and integrity of character, and while judging from our own mechanical multiplicity and self-contradictions, we rush to reassure ourselves and call our mess "human" while denouncing anything other than our plunging selves as "artificial". Black is white, and white is black? That reminds me of something...

 

[anart]

As we know, 'MythofMyself' considers Bernhard to be his 'guide' and his 'healer' and likely his 'friend' - - as such, Myth is not seeing things objectively. That is not unusual and was to be expected. What has been written here is a wholly mechanical reaction by Myth to a perceived slight of someone he holds in high regard, thus a perceived slight of himself. With that in mind, I'll address his emotionally weighted questions.

Do you Anart, feel that you have "awakened"?

Absolutely not, I simply understand enough to realize that, and to grasp how vitally important it is to never - not for one moment - stop Working on it and helping others to do the same, if they so choose. One cannot awaken by themselves.

Are you awake enough to pass judgement on others through this medium of communication? Objectively, can you not see the limitations of communicating through this method?

I do not pass judgment - judgment has absolutely nothing to do with it. The truth is the truth. If one is not interested in the truth, then there are thousands of forums to visit and spend time on. This forum is interested in getting to the objective truth of our reality - in this reality, "...people are sheep awaiting the slaughter, considering themselves men, lions or magicians - considering themselves knowledgeable, powerful or 'magic', when all the while, they are nothing but sleeping sheep." Did you miss the part where I stated that this is true of everyone, not just your Bernhard?

Your comment in this post:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10606.60
"You see, the world is on fire - literally - and what we are doing here is trying to wake up as many people as possible before they are consumed in flames."
Seems to be the very definition of "self importance" that you preach we should get over.

Nope, not at all. It is the very definition of the horror of the situation and nothing more. Understanding that the world is on fire has nothing to do with self-importance. A group effort and aim to help as many people awaken to that fact as possible, so that they might be able to Do something about it has nothing to do with self-importance. Perhaps you do not understand the meaning of self-importance?

There is a danger in working with absolutes in such a limited form of communication. Not to mention an abundance of speculation as far as the meaning of the 2d words your eyes can see here.

You are missing the point. It is not about 'absolutes' - it is about the Fourth Way, upon which this forum is based.

How can you play the role of a judge without the possiblity of fault or of miscalculation, speculation?

Again, it has nothing to do with 'judgment' - if you were more familiar with the work of GI Gurdjieff, everything that I have written would be very familiar to you - you would 'recognize' it and you would not be reacting so mechanically to the points that were made. At this point, it is very difficult to talk to you since you are 'using a different dictionary' as it were.

Can you sum me up in so few words?

Well, since you asked ;) , I would likely use the exact words, as I would for the vast majority of humanity on 3D Earth - though I would likely also mention that you, being run by your emotional reactions and lack of general understanding, have a bit less 'room to maneuver' than Bernhard does - your 'cage is smaller'. You do not understand the horror of the situation - you do not understand what is being discussed, and in that lack of understanding, you are offended and reacting emotionally. Unless you gain an understanding, there is very little to discuss, because you see the truth as 'judgment' instead of as the objective truth.

Define who I am so easily without having ever looked into my eyes or shared a living moment other than the display of a smiley as a stand in for the display of a true emotion?

You are describing your abilities of perception - just because these are your limits of perception does not mean they are shared by others.

Be careful not to work yourself into an isolated exsistence, why not delete your profile on this forum and be free of the persona "Anart" that means so much to you?

You really, truly, have no idea what you're talking about. The fact of the matter is that there will come a time when this forum closes and there is no more 'anart' - this forum is not about 'anart' - 'anart' is one very tiny sliver of what goes on here, but she has her role to play and does so to take some of the burden off of others, and to learn - it has very little to nothing to do with 'anart'.

It seems to have become a role of judge and jury. And the very thing that is standing in the way of you facing your "self".

Nope, not even vaguely, that is a nice 'twist' though. When a man cannot see the truth about something, he is often threatened and accusatory. MythofMyself, since you first came to this forum on the suggestion of Bernhard, you have had a bit of a difficult time. You have not understood the line of force here, what it is we do and why it is we do it. You apparently have not found what you wanted to find and as a result of this you are dissatisfied with it. There are a lot of other forums out there where you might be much more 'happy'.

Conversations in groups continued as usual. Once Gurdjieff said that he wanted to
carry out an experiment on the separation of personality from essence. We
were all very interested because he had promised "experiments" for a long
time but till then we had seen nothing. I will not describe his methods, I
will merely describe the people whom he chose that first evening for the
experiment.

One was no longer young and was a man who occupied a fairly prominent
position in society. At our meetings he spoke much and often about himself,
his family, about Christianity, and about the events of the moment connected
with the war and with all possible kinds of "scandal" that had very much
disgusted him.

The other was younger. Many of us did not consider him to be a serious
person. Very often he played what is called the fool; or, on the other hand,
entered into endless formal arguments about some or other details of the
system without any relation whatever to the whole. It was very difficult to
understand him. He spoke in a confused and intricate manner even of the most
simple things, mixing up in a most impossible way different points of view
and words belonging to different categories and levels.

I pass over the beginning of the experiment.

We were sitting in the big drawing room.

The conversation went on as usual.

"Now observe," G. whispered to us.

The older of the two who was speaking heatedly about something suddenly
became silent in the middle of a sentence and seemed to sink into his chair
looking straight in front of him. At a sign from G. we continued to talk
without looking at him. The younger one began to listen to the talk and then
spoke himself. All of us looked at one another. His voice had become
different. He told us some observations about himself in a clear, simple,
and intelligible manner without superfluous words, without extravagances,
and without buffoonery. Then he became silent; he smoked a cigarette and was
obviously thinking of something. The first one sat still without moving, as
though shrunken into a ball.

"Ask him what he is thinking about," said G. quietly.

"I?" He lifted his head as though waking up when he was questioned. "About
nothing." He smiled weakly as though apologizing or as though he were
surprised at anyone asking him what he was thinking about.

"Well, you were talking about the war just now," said one of us, "about what
would happen if we made peace with the Germans; do you still think as you
did then?"

"I don't know really," he said in an uncertain voice. "Did I say that?"

"Yes, certainly, you just said that everyone was obliged to think about it,
that no one had the right not to think about it, and that no one had the
right to forget the war; everyone ought to have a definite opinion; yes or
no-for or against the war."

He listened as though he did not grasp what the questioner was saying.
"Yes?" he said. "How odd. I do not remember anything about it."

"But aren't you interested in it?"

"No, it does not interest me at all."

"Are you not thinking of the consequences of all that is now taking place,
of the results for Russia, for the whole of civilization?"

He shook his head as though with regret.

"I do not understand what you are talking about," he said, "it does not
interest me at all and I know nothing about it."

"Well then, you spoke before of your family. Would it not be very much
easier for you if they became interested in our ideas and joined the work?"

"Yes, perhaps," again in an uncertain voice. "But why should I think about
it?"

"Well, you said you were afraid of the gulf, as you expressed it, which was
growing between you and them."

No reply.

"But what do you think about it now?"

"I am not thinking about it at all."

"If you were asked what you would like, what would you say?"

Again a wondering glance-"I do not want anything."

"But think, what would you like?"

On the small table beside him there stood an unfinished glass of tea. He
gazed at it for a long time as though considering something. He glanced
around him twice, then again looked at the glass, and said in such a serious
voice and with such serious intonations that we all looked at one another:
"I think I should like some raspberry jam."

"Why are you questioning him?" said a voice from the corner which we hardly
recognized.

This was the second "experiment."

"Can you not see that he is asleep?"

"And you yourself?" asked one of us.

"I, on the contrary, have woken up."

"Why has he gone to sleep while you have woken up?"

"I do not know."

With this the experiment ended.

Neither of them remembered anything the next day. G. explained to us that
with the first man everything that constituted the subject of his ordinary
conversation, of his alarms and agitation, was in personality. And when his
personality was asleep practically nothing remained. In the personality of
the other there was also a great deal of undue talkativeness but behind the
personality there was an essence which knew as much as the personality and
knew it better, and when personality went to sleep essence took its place to
which it had a much greater right.

"Note that contrary to his custom he spoke very little," said G. "But he was
observing all of you and everything that was taking place, and nothing
escaped him."

"But of what use is it to him if he also does not remember?" said one of us.
"Essence remembers," said G., "personality has forgotten. And this was
necessary because otherwise personality would have perverted everything and
would have ascribed all this to itself."

 

[webglider]

You really, truly, have no idea what you're talking about. The fact of the matter is that there will come a time when this forum closes and there is no more 'anart' - this forum is not about 'anart' - 'anart' is one very tiny sliver of what goes on here, but she has her role to play and does so to take some of the burden off of others, and to learn - it has very little to nothing to do with 'anart'.

I think that we should all be aware of how limited the time we have to work on ourselves in the context of this forum is.

The Evil Magician, just out of view, is sharpening his knives...

 

[PepperFritz]

As we know, 'MythofMyself' considers Bernhard to be his 'guide' and his 'healer' and likely his 'friend' - - as such, Myth is not seeing things objectively....

Ironically, the relationship between Bernhard and Myth is a perfect example of the danger of trying to bring others to the Work, as expressed by Gurdjieff below:

...there was a definite rule that none of you, excepting those whom I specially instructed to do so, should talk to anyone either about the groups or the lectures or the ideas. And I explained then why this was necessary. You would not have been able to give a correct picture, a correct impression. Instead of giving people the possibility of coming to these ideas you would have repelled them for ever; you would have even deprived them of the possibility of coming to them at any later time....

By introducing Myth to this forum (and by extension the Work) prematurely, Bernhard has probably ensured that he will never return to it on his own. It will be very difficult for Bernhard to see and accept the consequences of his actions; but if he does, it will be a turning point for him. He will realize that...

...If a man looks at himself as he really is, he will not begin to think of helping other people: he will be ashamed to think about it.

 

[Smallwood]

I think it's a bit of a loss that Bernhard decided to delete his postings in his blog/MySpace as it is quite hard to put this quite lengthy and interesting conversation in context. If anything that was quite a mechanical reaction, osit. If all he was doing was reposting & commenting on some articles of some spiritual/political issues as he said he did, then I see no good reason why that should be immediately of self-importance. Let that be clear. Maybe he did have an issue of wanting to be "a teacher" but nothing outright stands out to me that that was the case in this thread (except maybe the length of text with which he defended himself).

If anart is honest and objective in this, and I think that a mod of this forum has a good chance of being that, then it is a bit "unfair" for her that people cannot go to the source of this issue and see for themselves.

Well, that is about all I can say not knowing all the facts.

 

[anart]

I think it's a bit of a loss that Bernhard decided to delete his postings in his blog/MySpace as it is quite hard to put this quite lengthy and interesting conversation in context. If anything that was quite a mechanical reaction, osit. If all he was doing was reposting & commenting on some articles of some spiritual/political issues as he said he did, then I see no good reason why that should be immediately of self-importance. Let that be clear. Maybe he did have an issue of wanting to be "a teacher" but nothing outright stands out to me that that was the case in this thread (except maybe the length of text with which he defended himself).

I don't know that he deleted it, just that it is now 'private' and, as he said, downsized. Please understand that this is not, in any way shape or form, a situation of accusation against Bernhard by me or anyone else. Bernhard has every right in the world to use his 'myspace' page any way he wants, including for posting spiritual information. The point of this thread, and the reason Bernhard has retired temporarily to contemplate it, is the question of his motivation - and how much he may have been feeding his self-importance or himself energetically by being the representative of this knowledge on his 'myspace' page - basically how he used it to present an image of himself in a way - how (and whether) he was using the information to bring attention to himself.

The other part of the discussion is the very real fact that one cannot bring someone else to this Work - so trying to do that doesn't serve anyone well. That has all been discussed previously, so I see no need to reiterate it all again.

If anart is honest and objective in this, and I think that a mod of this forum has a good chance of being that, then it is a bit "unfair" for her that people cannot go to the source of this issue and see for themselves.Well, that is about all I can say not knowing all the facts.

Again, I don't think that is the point. I actually don't think Bernhard has any 'quarrel' with what was written and that he is using it as an opportunity to self-observe and figure out the core of why he was presenting information the way he was presenting it. The Work is, by necessity and definition, not for wide public consumption and if one is using it to bring attention to oneself, then either they have not realized what it is they are doing, or they are feeding. It is a very subtle point and was brought up to afford Bernhard an opportunity to glimpse a potential aspect of himself that he had not considered. His reaction indicated that this could be quite beneficial to him.

So - there is really no need for 'proof' of anything - it is simply a process of self-observation and discovering aspects of ourselves that we might not be aware of - and, sometimes, people choose to put such observations on a shelf for a later time when they can deal with them more effectively. I hope that makes some sort of sense.

 

[PepperFritz]

If anart is honest and objective in this, and I think that a mod of this forum has a good chance of being that, then it is a bit "unfair" for her that people cannot go to the source of this issue and see for themselves.

Two points:

(1) The issues pointed out to Bernhard by Anart and others are readily apparent from an objective reading of Bernhard's own posts in this thread. If you are not able to recognize those issues in his posts, then it is unlikely that you would have recognized them in Bernhard's original myspace/blog.

(2) Anart did not delete Bernhard's postings in his myspace/blog -- Bernhard did. And he did so as a defensive reaction to the issues that were brought to his attention. So if you, as a late-comer to this discussion, are now unable to view that material, it is Bernhard who has prevented you from doing so, not Anart. As someone else has pointed out, one cannot help but wonder, if the material was as innocuous as Bernhard insists it was, why he felt the need to remove it from view.