Why the secrecy?

[Miss Isness]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

This thread is bringing up some questions for me about sharing in general. I recall having read that women are hard wired to feel pleasure when nurturing, which is a a species survival mechanism. So, feeling good can certainly be a motivation for sharing. At the same time, it is also possible to recognize the necessity of sharing to form a community. Community is a necessity to survival, so sharing can be an instinctual drive, as well as an intellectual choice.

I think that when people are not really able to share who they are, and are not able to really connect with a larger community, they suffer. I don't think the suffering is only a question of not getting one's ego fed. Of course, I realize that sometimes we need to suffer in order to grow, but we should also avoid needless suffering.

I have also seen how easy it is to feed when sharing creative work, but after having spent a couple of years being very isolated as a song artist I know that there's a lot more to sharing than that. I haven't stopped writing/singing, but it actually seems a little selfish to spend so much time dedicated to something that can't be shared. I know that it is part of who I am and thus I feel it is necessary to continue in spite of my isolation, but I know that I really need to share what I do and get outside input to see and strengthen weak areas, and to truly recognize, utilize and enjoy my strengths.

I don't think of sharing in balanced relationships as being feeding. It seems to me the key is balance. If there is equal exchange of mutually beneficial interaction, and draining behaviors are kept to a minimum, then isn't that something more than feeding?

 

[Tigersoap]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

[quote author=Oxajil]
I hope you know what you're doing. Sure you can practice EC, but sometimes, as I said before, we tend to forget the first reason behind starting a conversation.[/quote]

Thank you Oxajil,
Well in my case, it has very few things to do with actual conversations, due to me not putting it into context I think it is a bit different than how you explain it.
I am doing illustrations that sometimes tie up to SOTT themes coincidentally and mainly because by doing the work on myself, it has a definite influence on what I express through this medium.
People see what they want to see in them and if they don't connect or look further I don't much care, but I always want to give the opportunity for those who would want to, in a roundabout way osit.

I just need the clarity that helps me to discern between self serving acts and the rest and it's by continuing my works (and everything that revolves around it) and not avoiding it that I think I may be of some help.

The more I think about it the more I see that I can't change the way I am creating because it has evolved with my being at the same time and is a reflection of who I am or think I am.

Hope this clears up my post for you as well Nicklebleu, ugh..my previous post lacked external considering ;)

 

[Tigersoap]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

[quote author=Miss Isness]I have also seen how easy it is to feed when sharing creative work, but after having spent a couple of years being very isolated as a song artist I know that there's a lot more to sharing than that. I haven't stopped writing/singing, but it actually seems a little selfish to spend so much time dedicated to something that can't be shared. I know that it is part of who I am and thus I feel it is necessary to continue in spite of my isolation, but I know that I really need to share what I do and get outside input to see and strengthen weak areas, and to truly recognize, utilize and enjoy my strengths.
I don't think of sharing in balanced relationships as being feeding. It seems to me the key is balance. If there is equal exchange of mutually beneficial interaction, and draining behaviors are kept to a minimum, then isn't that something more than feeding?
[/quote]

You expressed this better than I could, it's part of the artist Work on self to be able to create and see the feeding mechanism as well, there is a great opportunity to actually Work on the self by being confronted to people's opinion, criticism, like or dislikes or being able to spot your own programs of fear of being rejected, misunderstood, unappreciated...
Keeping a cool head when everybody's feeding of you because you're so "great", not slipping into easy self gratification by doing less than you could do and so on.
And finally see your own potential, appreciate it for what it is and share it.

It dawned on me that there is no better place to work on myself than this path and I suppose this is your too.

I think that sharing is STO as its core but that by living in the mixtus Orbis there is no other choice than to abide by the STS rules, thus the necessity of balance like you said and protecting yourself from abuse osit.

 

[PepperFritz]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

NOTE: The following message and the seven preceding it (posts #35-#41) originally appeared in the thread titled Why the Secrecy, but were subsequently moved here by the moderator since the subject matter really falls under Creativity in an STS world.

Laura's Note: I have restored the split posts to this thread since it is clearly an organic thread development and takes the context away from the discussion that follows. While it is technically correct that the topic shifted, the shift was not exactly into "creativity". Also, as noted already, the thread shifted a long time ago turning from a general discussion of secrecy and External Considering to a soapbox for Bernhard and a subsequent "mirror."
_________________________________________________


Whoa, hold on there!

Tigersoap and Miss Isness, I think you may have jumped into the Why the Secrecy thread without having read it from the beginning, and having a clear idea of the issue being discussed.

What we were discussing in that thread -- with Bernhard in particular -- is the necessity of confining to oneself and this forum any discussion of "the Work" (and by extension the "spiritual concepts" that Bernhard referred to); and the importance of realizing that for any of us to attempt to guide others "spiritually" and/or to try and bring them to the Work is (1) evidence of Self-Importance and lack of Strategic Enclosure and External Consideration, and (2) a dangerous practice that can actually damage others' eventually coming to the Work on their own via our misrepresentation of it to them.

Bernhard admitted to posting on his myspace/blog his own writings about "spiritual concepts" for others to read, hence the discussion with him as outlined above. It was NOT a discussion about there being anything "wrong" with having myspace accounts and/or blogs in general, or about "sharing" ones creative work with others online.

Hope this clarifies it. Perhaps you could start a new thread about the issue of Self-Importance for creative artists, so that the subject of this thread does not become confused? (Now moved by moderator to Creativity in an STS world thread.)

 

[anart]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

Yes, Tigersoap and Miss Isness,  you both really wandered into left field with this and wholly missed the context.  Now, why is that?  Projection?  Were you so focused on yourself and how it might apply to you that you missed the line of force in the conversation?

After re-reading the thread, I'm a bit confused how both of you could scatter the signal almost completely.

As far as the thread is concerned - and as always, the Law of Three comes into play - there is right, there is wrong and there is the specific situation which determines which is which.  This thread is a subtle discussion of energetic feeding, motivation, self-observation and lies to the self - and about all of that as it pertains to drawing attention to oneself by using spiritual information or knowledge - when such is presented as part of the self - as a 'look at me and what I know'.  Hopefully that clears it up a bit.  Let's try to get 'back on track' here.  [note - topic was split to keep original thread intact]

While I'm not saying that either of you is not doing such things, I am saying that the simple fact that you, Tigersoap, are concerned enough about it that this thread shook you indicates that it is likely not a problem with you. Miss Isness, we are not really discussing sharing 'creative work'.  Perhaps re-reading the original thread and attempting to see the energy behind the words will bring some clarity.

 

[nemo]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

I was about to post this in the "Why the secrecy ?"-thread, were it not for Pepperfritz`comment (so thanks for the hint, P. :)).
It does relate to the final posts in above mentioned thread, though.

Fwiw, that`s my (momentary) view:
Some/all of us were given a talent by "the universe"(?). First we have to discover what it is. Could be an artistic, scientific, social ...(etc)... talent. Next we are obliged to excersise it. (Stephen King said talent is like a blunt knife - we have to sharpen it). When we end up with a product, be it song, picture, text etc. the artistic obligation ends with sharing the work, thereby achieving some balance.
We got a gift ... we share the result and so give back something to "the universe".

... it's part of the artist Work on self to be able to create and see the feeding mechanism as well, there is a great opportunity to actually Work on the self by being confronted to people's opinion, criticism, like or dislikes or being able to spot your own programs of fear of being rejected, misunderstood, unappreciated...

I assume you meant "... to be able to create and [to] see the feeding mechanism..."
Those of creative disposition all have the experience of having one`s ego stroked when showing the fruits of one`s work. Here lies the crux of the matter: The motivation for being creative, the intent of our work and how we deal with the feeding aspect. As you suggested therein lies opportunity to grow, not only artistically but one`s personality (in the sense of K. Dabrowski).

Keeping a cool head when everybody's feeding of you because you're so "great", not slipping into easy self gratification by doing less than you could do and so on. ... And finally see your own potential, appreciate it for what it is and share it. ...
I am doing illustrations that sometimes tie up to SOTT themes coincidentally and mainly because by doing the work on myself, it has a definite influence on what I express through this medium.

To play around and being creative while integrating some esoteric aspects we have learned or thought we have learned and sharing the outcome with others in a playful undogmatic way* seems to me STO-leaning, as long as we don`t intend to teach others and as long as our motivation for being creative is not for feeding purposes. In general I believe that STS/STO-dynamics are very entangled in the whole creative process, so in the end, as always, it is the individual situation in which we have to learn to differentiate between right and wrong.

*which is what you`re probably doing, I assume.

Edit: Ooops, i wasn`t aware that Tigersoap and others already moved to This thread.
Haven`t yet read most recent posts. I´m sorry for having created Noise!

 

[Miss Isness]

Re: Creativity in an STS world

Yes, Tigersoap and Miss Isness, you both really wandered into left field with this and wholly missed the context. Now, why is that? Projection? Were you so focused on yourself and how it might apply to you that you missed the line of force in the conversation?

After re-reading the thread, I'm a bit confused how both of you could scatter the signal almost completely.

As far as the thread is concerned - and as always, the Law of Three comes into play - there is right, there is wrong and there is the specific situation which determines which is which. This thread is a subtle discussion of energetic feeding, motivation, self-observation and lies to the self - and about all of that as it pertains to drawing attention to oneself by using spiritual information or knowledge - when such is presented as part of the self - as a 'look at me and what I know'. Hopefully that clears it up a bit. Let's try to get 'back on track' here. [note - topic was split to keep original thread intact]

While I'm not saying that either of you is not doing such things, I am saying that the simple fact that you, Tigersoap, are concerned enough about it that this thread shook you indicates that it is likely not a problem with you. Miss Isness, we are not really discussing sharing 'creative work'. Perhaps re-reading the original thread and attempting to see the energy behind the words will bring some clarity.

Hello Anart and Pepperfritz,

I apologize for diverting the thread. I'm not sure where to post this, so please feel free to move it if necessary.

I did actually read the whole thing. My post was partially in response to Tigersoap's, but I was also attempting get a grip on what exactly has tipped you off that Bernard is feeding by sharing information related to spiritual growth. I was having difficulty seeing a clear indication that he was, in fact, doing that, even if it appears quite possible. I guess what I'm struggling with is the idea that if sharing something makes you feel good, it's nothing more than feeding your self-importance.

I realize that one must consider the specific situation and you are talking about giving spiritual guidance in relation to the Work, but perhaps I've missed something. It seems to me that there is a connection between sharing your interests with whomever is open to it, and building community. I think it's really important to avoid discouraging people from doing that. A lot of people are really cut off from community in the modern world and they need to connect with people who share their interests, not just on the internet, but face to face.

Bernard is interested in healing work, so it doesn't come as surprising that he should desire to share information that could contribute to a person's spiritual growth. He appears to be struggling with how to go about doing that in a way that actually serves others, and not just himself, but I see that as a sign of his willingness to re-evaluate his approach, rather than resistance.

I'm sure I was trying to take some of the pressure off of Bernard, and maybe that was wrong. On the other hand maybe it's better not to back someone into a corner if you aren't 100% sure that your observations are correct.

 

[anart]

Re: Creativity in an STS world

I did actually read the whole thing.  My post was partially in response to Tigersoap's, but I was also attempting get a grip on what exactly has tipped you off that Bernard is feeding by sharing information related to spiritual growth.  I was having difficulty seeing a clear indication that he was, in fact, doing that, even if it appears quite possible.  I guess what I'm struggling with is the idea that if sharing something makes you feel good, it's nothing more than feeding your self-importance. 

Had you seen his blog before he started 'downsizing' it, you would have understood.  Short of that, it would have been helpful if you would have realized that just because you cannot see something does not mean that others cannot see it - or that it is not there. 

I realize that one must consider the specific situation and you are talking about giving spiritual guidance in relation to the Work, but perhaps I've missed something.

Yes, you have.

  It seems to me that there is a connection between sharing your interests with whomever is open to it, and building community.  I think it's really important to avoid discouraging people from doing that.  A lot of people are really cut off from community in the modern world and they need to connect with people who share their interests, not just on the internet, but face to face. 

You are not only completely missing the point, but you are blunting what is a very important point for Bernhard.  In fact, in your inability to See, you are potentially weakening the potential of this lesson for Bernhard - letting 'the heat out of the furnace' so to speak because you don't understand the process.

Bernard is interested in healing work, so it doesn't come as surprising that he should desire to share information that could contribute to a person's spiritual growth.

That is not the point and you are siding with his 'predator' - (you are not questioning your own understanding and you are underestimating what others CAN See).  This is not unusual, but in this particular case, you are, potentially, doing damage.

  He appears to be struggling with how to go about doing that in a way that actually serves others, and not just himself, but I see that as a sign of his willingness to re-evaluate his approach, rather than resistance.

I'm sure I was trying to take some of the pressure off of Bernard, and maybe that was wrong. 

Yes, it was wrong - and it is wrong - from the standpoint of learning and allowing him an opportunity to see a part of himself that is hidden by design of his predator.  The fact that he is willing to at least attempt to look at that part means there is a possibility that he can free himself of it because he has potential - but only if the heat is kept on; only if it is REAL to him - you are dissipating that heat with your lack of understanding.

On the other hand maybe it's better not to back someone into a corner if you aren't 100% sure that your observations are correct.

Are you speaking to yourself in this sentence?

 

 

[PepperFritz]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

...as long as our motivation for being creative is not for feeding purposes....

Well, we are all STS beings living in an STS world, so EVERYTHING we do (including creative work) is going to be motivated by some extent by the desire to "feed". All any of us can do is strive to reduce the "feeding" aspects of our activities -- and avoid altogether those that are almost exclusively motivated by the desire to feed. Once again, it's not the activity itself that is the issue, but our own motiviation in pursuing it.

I don't think that creative artists are any more motivated by "feeding" than anyone else. In my experience, the true artist is motivated by a "higher calling" when in the throes of inspiration. And he/she knows more than anyone that when they bring other motivations (such as money, fame, reputation, commercialism, etc.) before that, their creations tend to be less effective as works of art. That's why when an artist "sells out", it is often described as "soul destroying"....

 

[Miss Isness]

Re: Creativity in an STS world

I did actually read the whole thing. My post was partially in response to Tigersoap's, but I was also attempting get a grip on what exactly has tipped you off that Bernard is feeding by sharing information related to spiritual growth. I was having difficulty seeing a clear indication that he was, in fact, doing that, even if it appears quite possible. I guess what I'm struggling with is the idea that if sharing something makes you feel good, it's nothing more than feeding your self-importance.

Had you seen his blog before he started 'downsizing' it, you would have understood. Short of that, it would have been helpful if you would have realized that just because you cannot see something does not mean that others cannot see it - or that it is not there.

Ok, so you've made your assessment on the basis of his blog, which I haven't seen. I realize that just because I can't see something that doesn't mean others cannot - or that it isn't there.

I realize that one must consider the specific situation and you are talking about giving spiritual guidance in relation to the Work, but perhaps I've missed something.

Yes, you have.

An elaboration would be much appreciated.

It seems to me that there is a connection between sharing your interests with whomever is open to it, and building community. I think it's really important to avoid discouraging people from doing that. A lot of people are really cut off from community in the modern world and they need to connect with people who share their interests, not just on the internet, but face to face.

You are not only completely missing the point, but you are blunting what is a very important point for Bernhard. In fact, in your inability to See, you are potentially weakening the potential of this lesson for Bernhard - letting 'the heat out of the furnace' so to speak because you don't understand the process.

You'd be surprised what I haven't missed, and I do understand the process of intentionally breaking down someone's ego.

Bernard is interested in healing work, so it doesn't come as surprising that he should desire to share information that could contribute to a person's spiritual growth.

That is not the point and you are siding with his 'predator' - (you are not questioning your own understanding and you are underestimating what others CAN See). This is not unusual, but in this particular case, you are, potentially, doing damage.

I'm siding with Bernard's freedom to make a choice to sacrifice his ego of his own volition, and not just because he feels pressured to by the group.

He appears to be struggling with how to go about doing that in a way that actually serves others, and not just himself, but I see that as a sign of his willingness to re-evaluate his approach, rather than resistance.

I'm sure I was trying to take some of the pressure off of Bernard, and maybe that was wrong.

Yes, it was wrong - and it is wrong - from the standpoint of learning and allowing him an opportunity to see a part of himself that is hidden by design of his predator. The fact that he is willing to at least attempt to look at that part means there is a possibility that he can free himself of it because he has potential - but only if the heat is kept on; only if it is REAL to him - you are dissipating that heat with your lack of understanding.

I think you'd be surprised what people are capable of when they are given what they ask for. Bernard asked for time.

On the other hand maybe it's better not to back someone into a corner if you aren't 100% sure that your observations are correct.

Are you speaking to yourself in this sentence?

If I'm backing anyone into a corner, it's myself anart, and I certainly can't be 100% of my observations in my present state of imperfection.

 

[anart]

Re: Creativity in an STS world

Ok, so you've made your assessment on the basis of his blog, which I haven't seen.

No - that was only a small part of it.  It was his reaction to what was written here that provided much more information.

  I realize that just because I can't see something that doesn't mean others cannot - or that it isn't there.

Then why are you reacting this way?

You'd be surprised what I haven't missed, and I do understand the process of intentionally breaking down someone's ego.

Then you do not understand, and you are missing quite a bit. It is not about 'breaking down someone's ego'.  Before you get all 'insulted' and righteously indignant, perhaps you could take a moment or two to consider that you truly do not understand what is going on here and where you see 'breaking down', 'insults' or 'pressure' only help is being offered - sincere help and extremely effective tools.

I'm siding with Bernard's freedom to make a choice to sacrifice his ego of his own volition, and not just because he feels pressured to by the group.

Where is he not being given a choice?  He is only being given a mirror; one he can walk away from if he so chooses.  You appear to be projecting your own emotions onto this situation - as well as not understanding - at all - the crux.

I think you'd be surprised what people are capable of when they are given what they ask for.  Bernard asked for time.

Who has not given him time?  And why are you so personally offended by something you do not understand?

If I'm backing anyone into a corner, it's myself anart, and I certainly can't be 100% of my observations in my present state of imperfection.

Difficult to tell if you are being snide or just sarcastic.  Either way, it is certainly adding nothing of benefit to Bernhard, though it is revealing quite a bit about you.

 

 

[nemo]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

Well, we are all STS beings living in an STS world, so EVERYTHING we do (including creative work) is going to be motivated by some extent by the desire to "feed".

I absolutely agree.
Since I`ve been introduced to these concepts I`m often pondering the implications for my life/creativity.
I realize now that my sentence from which you quoted suggests the possibility to be creative in a non-feeding way. Whenever I question my motivation for doing something creative, STO and STS
are hopelessly intermingled and, wishful thinking aside, is probably STS-leaning.
The awareness of this matter can create a certain friction which can potentially lead to a certain mitigation of the negative traits, or so I hope.

And he/she knows more than anyone that when they bring other motivations (such as money, fame, reputation, commercialism, etc.) before that, their creations tend to be less effective as works of art. That's why when an artist "sells out", it is often described as "soul destroying"....

When you speak of "true artist" I suspect you mean that in the Gurdjieff-sense? Those artists would be very rare. You have somebody in mind? The "world of art", as I observe it, contrary to the protestations of their apologets, seems to be foremostly about MARKETING (see Kitschmeisters Warhol, Damien Hirst or Jeff Koons), not art. The interested public, small as it is, tends to regurgitate the holy opinions from the high priests of art (As of now: trendy galerists and rich buyers who can`t distinguish art from brown rice). To quote Pauline Kael: “One of the surest signs of the Philistine is his reverence for the superior tastes of those who put him down.”
As long as monetary value is being attached to artworks it will be a difficult situation for any serious or "true/er" artist and it will be difficult for artlovers to form a personal appreciation of art. Sorry for digressing but your statements, with which i agree, inspired some subjective thoughts on art, which are probably not of much interest.

Also, what is art anyway?

Ed: Rereading my post I See that i became victim of an old "discussing art"-program, initiated by my father who made "art" dinner topic number one (besides the "negative influence of America" ;D).
After developing something of a counter-punk-attitude i now sound like him . Identifying too much still.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Creativity in an STS world

I think you'd be surprised what people are capable of when they are given what they ask for. Bernard asked for time.

Yes, time is important. Patience as well and I think that all members here are not pushing him, simply stating something important. And if you have followed that thread and perhaps you have, then you should know that Bernhard was not that sincere to others or to himself. How does 'time' fit here? Why wasn't a specific question not answered? Does one need time perhaps to answer a question or is there something more behind this?

If one is interested in the Work and wants to do the Work, then I think, some sacrifices are necessary, not for another person, but for oneself. You make sacrifices for yourself, they don't have to be permanent, they can be made just for a test, to see how one's machine will act if this sacrifice is made. I think when one does the Work, you should try to See what happens and listen to those who also do the Work, because they might see things about you that others or you aren't ''able'' yet to see. This is, imo, networking. If you think you don't need any ''change'' in your life and you already know everything, then what is your purpose of doing the Work? Apparently, one who doesn't need others to be able to do the Work, must've missed something about the Work and how can such a person even show others about data/info that person himself doesn't even understand! And this happens a lot I think. Many people say; hey read this and that, but they never have read it or understood it themselves..

 

[PepperFritz]

Re: Why The Secrecy?

When you speak of "true artist" I suspect you mean that in the Gurdjieff-sense? Those artists would be very rare.

Oh, gosh. I guess I meant simply someone who is inspired to create by something beyond their own ego. And, no, I wouldn't even try to try and say how one would recognize that, I certainly wouldn't know. What is art, and what is an artist? These are centuries-old debates that I wouldn't dream of wading into.... :)

 

[Miss Isness]

Re: Creativity in an STS world

Ok, so you've made your assessment on the basis of his blog, which I haven't seen.

No - that was only a small part of it. It was his reaction to what was written here that provided much more information.

I realize that just because I can't see something that doesn't mean others cannot - or that it isn't there.

Then why are you reacting this way?

You'd be surprised what I haven't missed, and I do understand the process of intentionally breaking down someone's ego.

Then you do not understand, and you are missing quite a bit. It is not about 'breaking down someone's ego'. Before you get all 'insulted' and righteously indignant, perhaps you could take a moment or two to consider that you truly do not understand what is going on here and where you see 'breaking down', 'insults' or 'pressure' only help is being offered - sincere help and extremely effective tools.

I'm siding with Bernard's freedom to make a choice to sacrifice his ego of his own volition, and not just because he feels pressured to by the group.

Where is he not being given a choice? He is only being given a mirror; one he can walk away from if he so chooses. You appear to be projecting your own emotions onto this situation - as well as not understanding - at all - the crux.

I think you'd be surprised what people are capable of when they are given what they ask for. Bernard asked for time.

Who has not given him time? And why are you so personally offended by something you do not understand?

If I'm backing anyone into a corner, it's myself anart, and I certainly can't be 100% of my observations in my present state of imperfection.

Difficult to tell if you are being snide or just sarcastic. Either way, it is certainly adding nothing of benefit to Bernhard, though it is revealing quite a bit about you.

Hi Anart,

I didn't say I saw insults, breaking down of the ego by group pressure, yes. I'm not insulted or righteously indignant. I'm not personally offended. I was being neither snide nor sarcastic, your reading instrument must be off. I have no doubt that whatever it says about me will be addressed at the appropriate time.