Women Who Love Psychopaths

After having had three textbook WWLP relationships, and am now comfortably (though not at first--for the first 6 months after the last relationship ended 2 1/2 years ago I experienced the symptoms of narcotics withdrawal) relationship free, I too have wondered a lot about why "normal men" have so much trouble accessing and expressing their emotions and appear less attractive to most women.

Laura wrote:
What we see with the "normal guys" who are inhibited is that their fear controls them. A woman who is courageous and is not controlled by her fears (even if she has them) may find it difficult to respect a man who is controlled by emotional inhibitions. That is the problem of the intellect usurping the energy of the emotional center - men whose thinking is controlled by their damaged and/or undeveloped emotions.

Yes, indeed, normal men are at a very distinct disadvantage in comparison with the psychopath who creates the illusion of a guy whose mind is not entrapped by his neuroses.

But what if sincere guys, guys with heart and a lot to offer, could learn to get over their neuroses and perform this evolutionarily programmed courting process properly and with truth and honor?
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What comes to mind are the questions Why do "normal guys" let fear control their experience with their emotions? What keeps them from getting over their neuroses and relating more functionally with women and each other?

Growing up and living in a cultural controlled by patriarchy--one that continually devalues the feminine creative principles, encourages men to compete rather than communicate, and promotes an ideology of competitive individualism at the expense if others, discourages men from recognizing the empathic, more feminine part of their psyches. Men in the US, and in most of the world, are taught to identify with the pathocratic principles of patriarchy much to the detriment of their personal growth and their relationships with women.

I think it will take for a larger portion of our population to recognize and discourage the validation of and identification with the psychopathic elements of the culture we live and raise our children in before normal men will lose their fears of not being "manly," and before "normal" (as in not psychopathic) people can learn to relate to each other as humans and not gender stereotypes. The psychopaths of course can never, nor do they want to, learn to change and will continue to promote the principles of patriarchy as the model for proper male and female behavior.
shellycheval
 
shellycheval said:
What comes to mind are the questions Why do "normal guys" let fear control their experience with their emotions? What keeps them from getting over their neuroses and relating more functionally with women and each other?
Click to expand...

It's not surprising this is so difficult for "normal guys." There's so much to overcome. Patriarchy and culture factor heavily into the suppression of healthy development (for both males and females). Combine that with the typical damage that boys suffer in their families, being actively discouraged from expressing their emotions and feelings, and the objectification of women in society, it's no wonder they are confused.

How many men and women for that matter, have been taught how to access their emotions and work with them in an appropriate way? Not many of us. But even if we are talking about those who are doing the Work, who are working to overcome all kinds of buffers, it is still an issue. Perhaps it's merely because it isn't a priority and/or it's just not seen as important even though it is essential?

As G. says:

Without any particular necessity they (men) would face any difficulties you like. But on a matter of imortance that can really bring them something they will not move a finger. Such is human nature. Man never on any account wants to pay for anything: and above all he does not want to pay for what is most important for him. [...] For trifles, for things that are perfectly useless to him, he will pay anything. But for something important, never. This must come to him of itself.
 
Gurdjieff quoted by Black Swan said:
Without any particular necessity they (men) would face any difficulties you like. But on a matter of imortance that can really bring them something they will not move a finger. Such is human nature. Man never on any account wants to pay for anything: and above all he does not want to pay for what is most important for him. [...] For trifles, for things that are perfectly useless to him, he will pay anything. But for something important, never. This must come to him of itself.
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That sounds pretty accurate to me. The problem is, "primo women" (and that does NOT refer to appearances, but rather "qualities") really need to know that a man is willing to slay dragons for her (even if they are dragons of the mind and heart). She is able and willing to give a kind of love that is pretty much total and complete and forever, and it really is worth what she needs to open her heart. Psychopaths know this and use it heartlessly. If only normal guys - but special themselves - could get over themselves, their fears, etc, and do some real dragon slaying...
 
Reading this thread has brought to mind something I wrote after having been in a relationship with a girl that I cared about deeply. Unfortunately, her behavior reflected that she did not feel the same way for me. I suppose in a way, I was attempting to take the approach of the Knight with the painful result of what felt like my heart being torn apart. It more or less reflects my understanding of what it might involve to bring to a relationship the ability to cultivate a mutual understanding of each others heart and mind. I wrote this about a year ago and sort of parallels with the story of the Knight rescuing the princess:

It is such a sad thought that there exists so many women that have been treated badly by other guys in their life. Consequently, it seems that they protect themselves from any chance of being hurt by putting up these walls to emotionally distance themselves from such people. Unfortunately, these same women seem to form this tendency to categorize all guys has though they are the one that is intending to hurt them. In effect, this equates to an additional protection mechanism. By transferring past experience and superimposing it onto the present, women either begin to project an attitude of indifference and/or a cautious suspicion to guys with whom they are attracted minimizing any chance for a truly meaningful relationship to ever develop. By the formation of such an attitude directed at guys with whom they are actually considering entering into a relationship with women seem to sometimes switch their behavior to an offensive mode of "attack" to minimize the chance of having to defend themselves and become emotionally hurt once again. (The best defense is having a great offense might serve as a good analogy in this case.) They begin to display behavior characteristic of the person that had previously broken their heart. In acting in this way they sort of become the person that they hate but only in proportion to the level of protection they have previously formed.

It is unfortunate for those guys that value the heart and mind much more than they value the body and are possibly capable of giving to another both an experience to love and of love . When such guys meet this type of woman and then proceeds to make an attempt to tear down these "walls", he must endure her painful past via her actions for self-preservation expressed as this offensive mode of "attack." The response by the guy may be anger/indifference if he doesn't make an attempt nor desires to understand her present psychological state or a deep sort of sadness and empathy if he really is sincere in wanting to truly understand her heart and mind completely. Thus, the walls are much like a double-edged sword. If the guy is either incapable of understanding and/or unwilling to try then by the very actions taken by her to prevent enduring yet another painful experience, such guys are kept at bay. However, a guy that truly wants to understand her completely will also find his sincere heart kept at bay as well. The most that can result from this, it seems, is the development of a superficial relationship, if at all. However, if the guy is capable of understanding and has the willpower to experience the pain the woman has felt then he is given an opportunity to gain insight into her heart, mind and glimpse her true nature. Though her walls still very much exist, it is by his sincere Will to understand her heart and mind completely that will provide him the certain sustenance needed to climb her treacherous walls and allow him access to view her true self. If only the woman could see that there exists this guy that is fully willing to pay, even to bankruptcy, those emotional tolls that her pain is bringing to his heart. If only in one instant would she attempt to externally consider his feelings may the walls have a chance of being torn down, but he cannot convey this to her. But until this moment arrives he remains in a heart-aching standstill by the nature of his efforts to respect her freewill. If the chance does indeed arrive, the walls may finally be torn down. He must then move swiftly so that by the Will of his heart he may free her from her treacherous and self-preserving walls. And as a result of her Will to understand his inner heart’s true desire, they finally will have the chance to experience the nature of true Love. And each heart will have a chance to serve the other in their attempts to know not only themselves but each other’s heart and mind completely.
 
Black Swan said:
shellycheval said:
What comes to mind are the questions Why do "normal guys" let fear control their experience with their emotions? What keeps them from getting over their neuroses and relating more functionally with women and each other?
Click to expand...

It's not surprising this is so difficult for "normal guys." There's so much to overcome. Patriarchy and culture factor heavily into the suppression of healthy development (for both males and females). Combine that with the typical damage that boys suffer in their families, being actively discouraged from expressing their emotions and feelings, and the objectification of women in society, it's no wonder they are confused.
Click to expand...

As a man, I'd like to say that sometimes expressing emotions and feelings is met with women's contempt because it is interpreted as weakness. I've thought a lot about this, and I don't think that in such cases it is necessarily a mistake of the woman. Sure, it can be that the woman's dragon will not allow for an understanding man to approach her; but it can also be that the man, instead of expressing emotions healthily, is actually confusing sensitivity with internal considering. In that case, the woman would be right in sensing the approach as weakness. Or it can be a combination of both.

So a man needs to be in touch with his emotions to be a dragon slayer, but perhaps it is more important that he is capable of external considering always. In other words, just because he has emotions, that doesn't mean that he has the right to dump them on someone else, because he and only he is responsible for them.

Men can also find woman's emotionality unattractive. When I was younger I felt attracted to cold and 'bad' women. A friend joked that I only liked 'vamps'; she was right. Eventually I came to value warmth, kindness, joy, creativity, the ability to empathize, depth of thought and so on. But only after years of painful lessons.

Also, I don't think that the apparent emotional richness of the psychopath is what is most attractive to women. From observation I think that the most attractive single thing a man can have is self-confidence. So psychos are more attractive because they do not have inner doubts (because they are incapable of self-criticism and because they do not have real emotions that could cause an inner conflict) and that appears to others as confidence and security. It's fake, of course. Real self-confidence would come from self-respect, and a man can only have self-respect if he has worked hard on something meaningful and recognizes it.

So a dragon slayer needs to be in contact with his emotions, to be responsible for them in order to be able to externally consider, and to have had a great deal of inner work so that he can have self-respect and therefore self-confidence. That's how I see it so far.
 
Found this book review on News Blaze yesterday:
http://newsblaze.com/story/20090131115830drca.nb/topstory.html

___

Women Who Love Psychopaths: Book Review
by Carol Hoyer, PhD

The authors have given us an excellent overview of how women get sucked into unhealthy relationships with men who are power hungry, controlling and have no concern or empathy for those whom they hurt. These are men who can harm an individual without killing them. Psychologist's and society call them sociopaths or psychopaths.

The detailed information on topics such as: understanding the psychopath; how men hook women into their dark world; the woman who is a high risk for getting into a relationship with a psychopath and stories from four women who were caught in this deceitful web.

As I read this book, I will honestly say that it was the story of my daughter and the man who took her life without killing her. Reading this book gave me chills for all women who are or might get into a relationship like this. One chapter that really held my interest was the chapter on "The Use of Trance, Hypnosis and Suggestibility." The authors talk about how this type of man can spend all his time around a woman focusing on them and no one else by making little comments such as "You're so wonderful and beautiful," "No one has ever made me feel the way you do- they just don't understand me." How does this work you might ask- one thing I found from reading this book is that some women have high attentional factors- this comes from possible history of abuse or neglect; extensive dependency and excessive self-sacrificing.

As a Psychologist, I do know that we all have asked how can women stay in a relationship with a man like this? The author's have done an incredible job in explaining the temperament, and character traits that draw women into this type of harmful relationship and further explain why they remain. This book is such an unbelievable account of a profile of women who attract psychopaths. After reading this, readers will have an excellent view of how, what and when this happens. This is a book every therapist should recommend to women who have been in harmful relationships and it is a book all therapists or would-be therapist need to read.

Sandra L. Brown, Liane J. Leedom
Health and Well-Being Publications
P.O. Box 1056
Fairfield, CT 06825
www.saferelationships.com

Carol Hoyer is a Psychologist and online college instructor, as well as a freelance book reviewer. You can contact her through NewsBlaze or her blog at voicesfromreading.blogspot.com
 
It struck me that WWLP and its message would be very beneficial to fundamentalist Christian women. Trouble is, they won't read anything unless it's stamped "christian", and that kind of literature does not give adequate picture of spousal or family abuse, and even justifies it.

AS an example, consider Debi Pearl's book, "Created to Be His Helpmeet" (\\\http://www.createdtobehishelpmeet.org/)

There is plenty of folksy wisdom in this book, but in the end it is all about the wife accommodating herself to her husband's whim in the name of a higher cause of Salvation. A lot of pressure on the women. Some quotes:

It doesn't take a good man, or even a saved man to have a heavenly marriage. But it does take a woman who is willing to honor God and by being the kind of wife God intended.

God has provided for your husband's complete sanctification and deliverance from temptation through you his wife.

etc.

Divorcing an abuser or an outright psychopath is not an option. Moreover, the wife should support the husband and stick by him whatever he does. Even if he abuses her, i.e., crosses a nebulously defined "bright red line of violence", she should deliver him to the higher authority but continue to pray for his repentance, and wait for him to come back from jail reformed. The
legal system in this case will serve as a higher authority, the God's instrument to reform the man and bring him back to the family.

Quote from Michael Pearl's (Debi Pearl's husband):

If you or your children have been hit (other than the children being spanked) so as to leave discernable marks two hours later, and you genuinely fear that he will repeat his battering, you can take legal steps without divorcing your husband. In a moment when he is not angry, calmly inform him that the next time he physically assaults you or the kids, you are going to call the law and have him arrested.

You must first resolve in your heart that you are willing to prosecute him and see him go to jail. I visit prisons every week. It
is a great place to mull over the consequences of one's deeds. And I have never met a prisoner that turned down a visit from anyone. Think about it, lady; it is a great time for writing love letters and sharing a three-minute romantic phone call once a week. Guys who get out of prison run straight home to their ladies and treat them wonderfully-for a while anyway.

If your abusing husband fully understands that you have the power of the law behind you, he will learn to keep his hands in his pockets. I am not suggesting you do this to be vindictive or to get even with him. It must be done in humility and love. If your husband knows that you are the weaker vessel, desperately seeking your survival and that of the kids, and that you are not trying to punish him, but that you are going to stand by and continue to love him, that you are going to wait for him to get out of prison and then try to start over again, it may move his heart to fear if not to repentance.

You say, he cannot help himself. Does he help himself when his peers-other men his own size-make him angry? Does he fly out of control and start hitting his boss or his employees? No? Then he has self-control when he must. The law can make it a must, which will allow you to continue with him and demonstrate your womanhood and win him to yourself and then to your God.

God hates divorce-always, forever, regardless, without exception.



Even though this is psychologically ignorant, they make it look like gospel truth by cementing their conjectures in scriptural authority. Never mind that their theology is unsound at best.

And here is the worst: if God forbid mother finds that a husband sexually abuses the children, she should "possibly give him another chance", or otherwise, turn him in -- but pray for him all the time, forgive him, and, when his prison term is done, accept him back. :O

Pearls and their ministries have been active voices in the christian homeschooling community, but now they are being boycotted and excluded from many places because they advocate authoritative disciplinary practices and corporal punishment. There has been at least one case of a child dying in a family that followed their advice:

\\\http://blogmuse.blogspot.com/2006/03/tragedy-related-to-pearls-childrearing.html

Not to single out the Pearls, but this kind of advice is, in spirit, rather typical than not.
 
Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome:
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/124174/?page=entire

WWLP has been rejected by many churches. Too many.
 
purplehaze said:
Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome:
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/124174/?page=entire

WWLP has been rejected by many churches. Too many.
Click to expand...

i can attest to this as well. when i was younger, my sister endured a marriage with a psychopathic man. she "endured" because it was the "right thing to do." it took many years for her to come to a realization that she needed to divorce him, and even when she was finally able to do so, she was ostracized by her/our church even though they knew the nature of this man.
 
JonnyRadar said:
...when i was younger, my sister endured a marriage with a psychopathic man. she "endured" because it was the "right thing to do." it took many years for her to come to a realization that she needed to divorce him, and even when she was finally able to do so, she was ostracized by her/our church even though they knew the nature of this man.
Click to expand...

An aunt of mine lived with an abusive, alcoholic husband for many years. She did not consider divorcing him, because she wanted to be "a good Catholic". At one point she went to her parish priest to ask for advice. He told her that she should have another child with her husband, as it would "bring you closer together". So, like a "good Catholic", she got pregnant. The next time her husband got drunk and beat her, she miscarried.

I'm happy to say that once her children were grown she gave up on being "a good Catholic", left the jerk, and ended up with a very kind and caring man. They never married because her husband, being a "good Catholic", refused to give her a divorce. But they lived together "in sin" very happily for more than 30 years....
 
purplehaze said:
Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome:
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/124174/?page=entire

WWLP has been rejected by many churches. Too many.
Click to expand...

As you read the above article - it's also up on SOTT - you can see how these women have been brainwashed from infancy (so are the males) to believe this tripe. Unless they marry into this psychopathic patriarchal mess and are then "indoctrinated" into the mindset. So because of the brainwashing the women do not even consider getting out. It is very, very sad.

I think that there is something a little amiss with WWLP in one respect and that is that it makes it sound like only "highly successful" women attract psychopaths. They never mention anything about this being only one section of women that they looked at and that there are other types of women who are also vulnerable to attack from these beings.

I have read of quite a few women who have no confidence in themselves, think that they are the lowest of the low and are targeted by these lower-intellectual type (or maybe they are just less ambitious) psychopaths that are physically abusive, over-bearing and treat them as their personal slaves. I, personally, do not think that only the "highly successful" women need to be aware of psychopaths, but all women in every level of mentality needs to be on guard from these predators.

Maybe this part was pushed by Liane Leedom?
 
Nienna Eluch said:
I think that there is something a little amiss with WWLP in one respect and that is that it makes it sound like only "highly successful" women attract psychopaths. They never mention anything about this being only one section of women that they looked at and that there are other types of women who are also vulnerable to attack from these beings.
Click to expand...

It probably has to do with the results of the study that constituted the basis of the book. Any study has its limitations, and this one's is that this was a self-selected sample of people attracted largely via serious internet sources.

It is not surprising that many women who had found the questionnaire, felt compelled to respond, and also were responsible and dedicated to follow through with the study, turned out to be intelligent and high achieving. May be the authors should have noted the study's limitations more explicitly.

Still, IMO the profiles of WWLP women are like a breath of fresh air for many readers, for the following reason. There is too much of "blame the victim" in the whole domestic and spousal abuse field. If she fell for him and was abused, she must have had the victim mentality, must have been abused as a child and is now "unconsciously replicating the family dynamics she had internalized", she is codependent, lacks confidence. This is all just a pretext to assume that everything is wrong with her and it's her own fault.

Sandra rightly point out that some women who feel that they are the lowest or the low are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, not codependency or prior mood disorders. The interaction with a psychopath can destroy a woman very quickly. But no matter how she feels, to others she can still appear successful, just because she has a master's degree and holds a good job. "Success" is not an accurate measure of how good the woman's life really is.

The risk factors that the study rightly pointed out are extroverted temperament, developed empathy, cooperativeness, high relationship investment, either high or low harm avoidance, etc. Hopefully, the readers will see whether they fit the profile and make conclusions -- never mind whether they consider themselves high or low achieving.
 
Hildegarda said:
Still, IMO the profiles of WWLP women are like a breath of fresh air for many readers, for the following reason. There is too much of "blame the victim" in the whole domestic and spousal abuse field. If she fell for him and was abused, she must have had the victim mentality, must have been abused as a child and is now "unconsciously replicating the family dynamics she had internalized", she is codependent, lacks confidence. This is all just a pretext to assume that everything is wrong with her and it's her own fault.
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I hesitate to post, as a man, this is delicate territory. "Blaming the victim" is often used to silence the perspective that knowledge of psychopaths and their method of operation is not sufficient to protect oneself or others from pathological relationships. One must also consider self. Recovery from abuse does not stem from "blaming the psychopath". Recovery from and avoiding deviant relationships is not about blame. Recovery begins when I ask why I got involved in a relationship with a psychopath. This issue is address by Sandra Brown in "Trait Examination OR Character Assassination".

http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/category/sandra-says/sandra%E2%80%99s-bi-monthly-article

I have examined my intimate and business relationships, always seeing the faults of the other. This only led to the next failure to recognize a pathological person or context. I could not discern the true from the false. It seems this incapacity lies in the emotional center. No pun intended. :)

Mouravieff said:
The emotional centre in the newborn is characterized by its purity. As long as the child has not learned how to lie, he retains the marvelous faculty—proper to this centre—of spontaneously discerning the true from the false over a very wide range of experience. With time, education, and all that is instilled in the child, this centre is deranged and this faculty lost, to be found again only much later as a result of esoteric work, special exercises, and sustained efforts
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Harrison Koehli discusses our emotion center failure as the "open door" the psychopath walks through, unrecognized.
His article is "Pathological Relationships: Here, There, and Everywhere" in the Petty Tyrant section of Institute for Relational Harm Reduction and Public Psychopathy Education Magazine.

http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/category/voices/petty-tyrants
 
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