Women Who Love Psychopaths

[PepperFritz]

Still, IMO the profiles of WWLP women are like a breath of fresh air for many readers, for the following reason. There is too much of "blame the victim" in the whole domestic and spousal abuse field. If she fell for him and was abused, she must have had the victim mentality, must have been abused as a child and is now "unconsciously replicating the family dynamics she had internalized", she is codependent, lacks confidence. This is all just a pretext to assume that everything is wrong with her and it's her own fault.

My second husband revealed himself to be a psychopathic Jekyll-and-Hyde personality within months of our marriage. Before that, throughout our courtship, and the first few months of our marriage, not a single person in my circle of friends and colleagues had a bad word to say about him. They thought he was the most wonderful, loving man, who clearly "adored" me, and encouraged me to move full-speed ahead with him, even when I expressed my own doubts. In other words, he had fooled them all as well.

My boss also really liked him, had us over for dinner many times, even lent him her car for a weekend when his broke down just before we were about to leave for a "weekend getaway". When things went downhill and he became physically abusive, I had to confide in her what I was going through, as I needed some time off to move out as quickly as possible. Her response to hearing about my situation is still deeply shocking to me, to this day: She shook her head in a disbelieving way, and said: "I'm really surprised at you. Here you are a strong, independent, intelligent woman -- a feminist -- I'm surprised that you of all people would put up with a man treating you that way". To which I replied "I'm NOT putting up with it, that's why I'm moving out." I couldn't believe what I was hearing. "Still," she said, "I'm surprised you could have been fooled by someone like that, that you would have let it get to that point".

Blame the victim indeed....

 

[anart]

I hesitate to post, as a man, this is delicate territory.

I'm curious as to why? Do you think that only men are psychopaths? Women can be psychopaths as well. Do you think that only women can become involved with psychopaths?

"Blaming the victim" is often used to silence the perspective that knowledge of psychopaths and their method of operation is not sufficient to protect oneself or others from pathological relationships. One must also consider self.

Of course, knowledge of psychopathology is only one piece of the puzzle. I'm a bit confused as to where you got the idea that it was otherwise?

Recovery from abuse does not stem from "blaming the psychopath".

Who suggested that it did? There is an enormous difference between 'blaming' the psychopath and identifying the pathology, thus freeing oneself to be able to actually see what really happened - as opposed to what the psychopath has projected and convinced one to think. Make no mistake, the psychopath does deserve blame - is at fault - but the knowledge of that dynamic is only the first step - the first piece of the puzzle.

Recovery from and avoiding deviant relationships is not about blame.

Where was it suggested that it was, at its core, about blame?

Recovery begins when I ask why I got involved in a relationship with a psychopath.

Were you in an intimate relationship with a psychopath?

I have examined my intimate and business relationships, always seeing the faults of the other.

That is a rather limiting perspective, certainly.

This only led to the next failure to recognize a pathological person or context. I could not discern the true from the false. It seems this incapacity lies in the emotional center.

Not necessarily, though it may. You appear to be over-simplifying. In fact, what you've written here is blurring several lines. Just because you were looking for fault in others, does not mean those others were pathological. Just because you consider that you were unable to recognize pathology, if it did exist, does not mean it necessarily has anything to do with the emotional center, though it may.

Harrison Koehli discusses our emotion center failure as the "open door" the psychopath walks through, unrecognized.
His article is "Pathological Relationships: Here, There, and Everywhere" in the Petty Tyrant section of Institute for Relational Harm Reduction and Public Psychopathy Education Magazine.

Yes, and it's an informative article - but, again, you appear to be muddying the issue with your stated understanding that identifying pathology is 'blaming the psychopath' and that it is a mutually exclusive activity - that such knowledge and understanding would preclude a person from self discovery and the understanding necessary to prevent a reoccurance of the pathological involvement.

Please consider that it is a process - the first step of that process is the understanding that pathology exists - that it is real - that it masks itself and that when one is involved with a psychopath, nothing in the world one could have done any differently would have made one iota of difference in the relationship.

This alone is a monumental understanding for someone who has actually been involved with a psychopath - and this is the focus of the dissemination of information about psychopathy that is discussed here. The importance of this step cannot be overstated - without it one can go no further - thus the focus.

It is not about blame, go2 - it is about learning and understanding - one step leading to the next, leading to the point where one understands enough about themselves and others to prevent it from happening again. The first step in this process is the clear - unadulterated - understanding that psychopaths exist and this is an enormous task - to really grok it as it relates on a personal level. Hopefully that offers you a bit more perspective.

 

[Laura]

I think that there is something a little amiss with WWLP in one respect and that is that it makes it sound like only "highly successful" women attract psychopaths. They never mention anything about this being only one section of women that they looked at and that there are other types of women who are also vulnerable to attack from these beings.

I have read of quite a few women who have no confidence in themselves, think that they are the lowest of the low and are targeted by these lower-intellectual type (or maybe they are just less ambitious) psychopaths that are physically abusive, over-bearing and treat them as their personal slaves. I, personally, do not think that only the "highly successful" women need to be aware of psychopaths, but all women in every level of mentality needs to be on guard from these predators.

Maybe this part was pushed by Liane Leedom?

Well, this is an interesting point. I wrote and asked Sandra Brown about the sample of psychopaths that were used for the profile that was being "matched" to the women in the book and, apparently, it was Liane that was in charge of this part, having access to the studies, etc. It was, as far as she could tell, a sample from a prison. Well, that would make sense when we know that the only psychopath's that get studied are the ones that are incarcerated in some way. So, right from the get-go, you have a sample of men that may not at all reflect the "garden variety" psychopaths that were actually involved with the women in the sampling. Considering Liane's background and history, that immediately makes the sample/profile questionable. How do we know that she did not manipulate it? How do we know that the sample was really psychopaths and not sociopaths or ASPD types who are not psychopathic? And with no references in the book, we have no way of checking.

One thing to consider is this: if you read Leedom's story, you will notice her ex-husband, Barry Lichtenthal, is apparently a white collar criminal type - one who obviously wasn't all that bright because he had already been caught at least once.

New York Times Ex-U.S. Attorney Admits Investor Fraud


By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
Published: December 17, 1998

A former Federal prosecutor, who also served as the top enforcement officer of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, and a second man have pleaded guilty to racketeering and conspiracy charges in a telemarketing plot that cheated would-be investors of more than $80 million, Federal law enforcement officials announced today.

As part of their plea bargains, John A. Field 3d, a former United States Attorney in West Virginia, who now lives in North Carolina, and Marcus K. Dalton of Colts Neck, N.J., a man described as a professional con artist and telemarketing expert, helped the authorities conduct a sting operation in which Federal agents created a fake mutual fund, purportedly dealing in foreign currencies, and used it to infiltrate operations known as ''boiler rooms'' that sell fraudulent investments to the public.

A main goal of the operation was to search the boiler rooms that agreed to sell the fake mutual fund for information about other fraudulent investment schemes and the people who created them. Investigators said they expected the investigation to lead to dozens of arrests. Nine telemarketers and one boiler-room wholesaler agreed to sell the fake fund, which was called UNEX 2100, and their offices were raided on Tuesday, investigators said.

In addition to Mr. Field and Mr. Dalton, six other defendants pleaded guilty in United States District Court in Newark to charges of conspiracy and mail, securities and wire fraud related to telemarketing schemes, including several that involved selling millions of dollars in worthless investments in wireless cable television licenses. The defendants acknowledged taking enormous sales commissions on the bad investments, and some acknowledged that they simply stole the investors' money.

The guilty plea by Mr. Field, who was United States Attorney for the Southern District of West Virginia from 1972 to 1977 and the director of enforcement for the Commodity Futures Trading Commission from 1977 to 1980, represented a disgrace for a highly regarded prosecutor who won national attention and a reputation for integrity in 1975 when he obtained an indictment of Arch A. Moore Jr., the Governor of West Virginia, on conspiracy and corruption charges.

Mr. Field, 60, pleaded guilty to racketeering on Dec. 4 in United States District Court in Concord, N.H. The racketeering charge stemmed for his work as a lawyer for a boiler-room operator who had been arrested and convicted in New Hampshire. Mr. Field's guilty plea in New Hampshire was sealed until today while Federal authorities completed the undercover operation.

At the time he came to the attention of Federal investigators in New Hampshire, Mr. Field had already been under scrutiny by other law enforcement officials investigating fraudulent investment deals elsewhere, including in New Jersey and Nevada. Federal prosecutors in New Hampshire and New Jersey joined together, and in early 1996 Mr. Field agreed to assist their investigation by working undercover and using his contacts.

In addition to the racketeering charge, Mr. Field pleaded guilty today in Newark to one charge of conspiracy to commit securities, mail and wire fraud. The plea was accepted by Judge Katharine S. Hayden, who also accepted guilty pleas from the other suspects in the case. Mr. Field faces a maximum prison term of 20 years on the racketeering charge, a maximum of five years for the conspiracy charge and fines of $250,000 or more. Because of his cooperation, he is not expected to get the maximum.

The United States Attorney in Newark, Faith S. Hochberg, announced the guilty pleas and the undercover operation at a news conference this afternoon with Paul M. Gagnon, the United States Attorney in New Hampshire, and other officials. Ms. Hochberg called Mr. Field's admission of guilt ''the rock bottom of his slide from protector of the public to predator on the public.''

Mr. Dalton, 45, who was the subject of a September 1995 article in Forbes magazine that described him as a ruthless grifter and telemarketing genius who preyed on the elderly, pleaded guilty on Tuesday to conspiracy to commit racketeering. He faces a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and fines of $250,000 or more.

Prosecutors said Mr. Dalton concocted fraudulent investment products in commodities, wireless cable systems, specialized mobile radio systems, cellular telephone systems and children's television programming.

Other suspects who pleaded guilty to fraud charges were Barry Lichtenthal, 54, of Colts Neck, N.J.; Mark Prager, 41, of Solana Beach, Calif.; Robin Clark, 57, of Atlanta; Drew Bagarozy, 38, of Wall Township, N.J.; Howard Wunderlich, 51, of Somerset, N.J., and Thomas Umar, 40, of Belle Mead, N.J. They each face maximum sentences of five years in prison and fines.

In one of the more outlandish uses of the money stolen from investors, Mr. Lichtenthal, who used the alias Michael Taylor, acknowledged in a court hearing today that he took $265,000 that he collected from investors for a fraudulent venture called Northeast Telecom and used the money to buy toy trains.

Now, keep in mind that Leedom met this guy while cruising the net for a husband! Seriously! And she obviously didn't take the time to even run the most cursory check on him or the article quoted above would have turned up immediately.

There was another article about Bumbling Barry on the USPS site that has been removed, apparently. Not to worry, google cached it:

_http://www.usps.com/websites/depart/inspect/busy.htm

Postal Inspectors Shut Down $80 Million Telemarketing Scam Involving Former U.S. Attorney

NEWARK, NJ (December 16, 1998) —U.S. Postal Inspectors announced that a former U.S. Attorney and eight others involved in an $80 million securities telemarketing fraud pled guilty in federal court today after assisting the government in a nationwide undercover operation that shut down 14 telemarketing boiler rooms.

The joint announcement on the success of "Operation Busy Signal" came from the U.S. Postal Inspection Service and U.S. Attorneys from the Districts of New Jersey and New Hampshire at a press conference in Newark. Both jurisdictions secured guilty pleas to racketeering and conspiracy charges from John A. Field III, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of West Virginia between 1972 and 1977.

Field was the former director of enforcement for the Commodities Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), the regulatory agency that enforces laws that Field violated after leaving that post.

Beginning Tuesday afternoon and through Wednesday, Assistant U.S. Attorneys from New Jersey took guilty pleas from seven other defendants, among them Marcus K. Dalton of Colts Neck, NJ, one of the nation’s most prolific creators and marketers of securities fraud schemes. He admitted responsibility for selling or promoting at least $80 million in fraudulent securities, including shares in phony wireless cable operations, bridge loans to finance a wireless venture in American Samoa and fraudulent shares in Treasure Chest television, a children’s television programming investment.

Dalton, Field and the others entered their pleas before U.S. District Judge Katharine S. Hayden in Newark. On December 4, Field pled guilty to a separate RICO charge in the District of New Hampshire. With the cooperation of U.S. Attorney Gagnon, that guilty plea was kept under seal while the investigation continued in New Jersey.

The guilty pleas followed the execution of search warrants by a task force led by Postal Inspectors and including special agents of the FBI on telemarketing boiler rooms in South Carolina, California, Florida, New Jersey and elsewhere.

The raids capped a carefully scripted operation in which the government’s cooperating witnesses–including Dalton–convinced telemarketers with whom they had previously worked to sell investments in a fictitious foreign currency fund. The fund, with an accompanying prospectus, earnings history and slick marketing folder, was created by the task force.

In the undercover operation, the government employed retired agents of the FBI and the Postal Inspection Service, as well as volunteers from AARP, to pose as willing investors. The cooperating witnesses provided names, addresses and phone numbers of the "investors" to the boiler room operators, explaining that they had obtained the names from a government list of people who recently cashed in U.S. Treasury obligations.

Fictitious Telemarketing Firm

The undercover operation worked, and units of the fictitious "United Currency Exchange, Ltd."–based in London, England, with offices in Princeton, NJ–were sold to undercover agents.

Nine telemarketers and one boiler room "wholesaler" agreed to sell the fraudulent UNEX 2100 fund. They began to market it by telephone on or about December 2, and continued until their rooms were raided yesterday. Each of the nine boiler rooms sold at least $5,000 in investments in UNEX 2100 to an undercover (and retired) Postal Inspector or FBI agent or. Other volunteers who participated in the ruse acted as decoys and turned down the investment offer or asked that a brochure be mailed to them.

"We accomplished our goal to expose and close down operators who deceive citizens into sinking their hard-earned dollars into phony investments," said NJ U.S. Attorney Faith Hochberg. "These schemes were rigged from the start. The only ones who made money were the criminals."

Jay Skidmore, Newark Postal Inspector in Charge, said "Let Operation Busy Signal serve as a very clear and loud warning to all telemarketers who may be thinking about operating a fraudulent scam through the U.S. Mail. We are going to continue our aggressive efforts in the pursuit of fraudulent promoters, and you may already be in our sights."

Authorities said the best protection is careful investors who ask questions, act cautiously and realize that these (currency) markets are inherently very risky and that something that sounds too good to be true probably is."

The following individuals pled guilty:

* Dalton pled guilty to violating the RICO Act. He admitted being the criminal mastermind behind the sale of more than $80 million in fraudulent schemes through various entities, including Northeast Telecom of Freehold, NJ.

* Barry Lichtenthal, also known as Michael Taylor, also of Colts Neck, admitted conspiracy to commit mail, wire and securities fraud. The charge arose from his sales of communications-related ventures through Northeast Telecom. He admitted diverting investor funds for his personal use, including $300,000 for a down payment on his home and the purchase of $265,000 worth of toy trains.

* Robin Clark, of Atlanta, GA, pled guilty to conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud. The charges arose from his sale of partnerships through Northeast Telecom. He admitted selling fraudulent investments in affiliate broadcasters of the San Diego-based Treasure Chest television network, which airs "The New Zoo Revue," "Bookmice" and other non-violent children’s programs.

* Mark Prager, of Solana Beach, CA, pled guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud and securities fraud and one count of securities fraud related to his promotion and sale of investments in affiliate broadcasters of Treasure Chest. He admitted selling more than 2,000 shares in the affiliates, at a total cost to investors of more than $9 million.

* Guilty pleas on related charges were entered by Drew Bagarozy of Allenwood, NJ; Thomas Umar of Belle Mead, NJ; and Howard Wunderlich of Somerset, NJ. Charges included conspiracy and mail fraud in New Jersey and Arizona.

The above was also available on the net at the time Leedom hooked up with Lichtenthal.

Anyway, to get back to the problem, obviously, Leedom could have been invested in providing a particular sample of male characteristics that would possibly show her own case in a positive light.

 

[purplehaze]

The women were asked extensive questions about their ex-partners.
It was from that information that they were determined to be possible psychopaths.

No real psychopath who isn't incarcerated would ever be diagnosed.

And Leedom continues on playing martyr.

 

[mamadrama]

The problem is, "primo women" (and that does NOT refer to appearances, but rather "qualities") really need to know that a man is willing to slay dragons for her (even if they are dragons of the mind and heart). She is able and willing to give a kind of love that is pretty much total and complete and forever, and it really is worth what she needs to open her heart. Psychopaths know this and use it heartlessly. If only normal guys - but special themselves - could get over themselves, their fears, etc, and do some real dragon slaying...

Another thing to keep in mind is this very willingness to slay dragons, is a big hook that keeps the non pathological partner in the relationship. Without the knowing that the psychopath is unable to change, the non pathological partner will continue to try until they are drained and damaged, living too long with the false idea that progress can be made. So as Approaching Infiity mentioned at the beginning of the thread, discernment is so vital.

 

[manitoban]

Reading this book was quite an eye opener for me because it is now very plain to me that a friend of mine (I'll call her D) has been involved with a psychopath for the past 10 years. I've long been aware that her partner was a manipulative but outwardly charming man, yet I still didn't see how dangerous he really is until reading this book. After I read the book, I made a list of the things that this man has done, and seeing it all there in black and white and comparing his behavior to the traits listed - well, as the book says, even a few of the traits are enough to show pathology - and he's got more than a few of the traits! And D fits the female side of things too, extraverted, excitement seeking and is convinced that theirs is the ultimate romance, and also very invested in maintaining the image of having a perfect relationship.

What I also found interesting in the book was how the psychopath induces a trance - one of the ways in addition to sexual bonding, being through music, dance and sleep deprivation. During the courtship, D and this man went out dancing 7 nights of the week, and D was always exhausted, saying " I haven't slept more than a few hours in weeks." I see now how D's awareness was numbed by being in the trance state
Our society is so trained to think that a psychopath can only be a mass murderer type, and that anyone who isn't that just needs some therapy and after all "nobody's perfect". I now see that this is totally false, wishful thinking. The psychopath is not able to be helped, they are wired that way, and cannot change.

It is also interesting how our culture, which promotes the idea of “being swept off one’s feet by romance”, seems almost set up to encourage normal people to get involved with psychopaths. Romance on television and in movies, books etc. often seems to involve an intense rapid courtship, with “love” conquering all, and the belief that certain behaviors such as constant activity, exciting on the edge behavior, and arrogance, lack of responsibility are somehow desirable. The social norms of our culture make it much more difficult for people to recognize the signs of psychopathy.
This book lays it out plainly and clearly, probably should be read by all women, and heck men too, pyschopaths can be everywhere, and of either sex. And the most important part - THEY CAN'T CHANGE - THEY CANNOT BE CURED!

 

[Divide by Zero]

I read this book a couple of months ago and it was amazing. It was right after a girl broke up with me.

She had a few stories that she told me of her ex-boyfriend (who she almost married!) for 5-6 years.
He was a go getter in the world of finance, a genius in mathematics.

She is not the personality type mentioned in the book susceptible to psychopaths, but I see how the thread mentions that this could be Leedom's corruption of the topic.

The things he would do echo the book:
-He would keep her up all night, annoying her, so she would be drained when she goes to work early in the morning. He apparently went to his job with no problems.
-He would be very picky with small things, bossing her around.
-He would take her things, like her bag and say its "HIS".
-Things, that he didn't want at first, like kids, seemed to change when she was considering to leave the relationship.
-After the breakup, he kept threatening suicide or big changes in his life for her to pity him.

This, I think put her in a strange detached mood after dating me for a while. The beginning was good, no problems. After 2 months she started becoming detached and not communicating much. I am saddened to see how psychopathic relationships can do this to good people.

 

[dantem]

Thanks Laura,

this problem that has exercised you to no end it's really food for thought regarding psychopathy and the abuse of sex. Great that you find three 'beautiful meanings' from different sources to get to the point! Brown's book, G's and the research on chemical receptors.

The woman is highly invested in his emotional healing. Nonetheless,
the dichotomy of vulnerability meets up with his aloofness which casts
a “mystique” on the psychopath. Women define him as “different,”
“unique,” and “eccentric.” Some find him “electrifying.” What the
women identify as “mystique” is the unusual feel of the personality
disorder in him—the pathology. Some women mistake his hidden life
and sneakiness for mystique.

This passage in Ch. 10 seems to really show the power of that spiritual drug exerted by psychopaths and manipulators. It's staggering to see till what point they can read a normal person and sort of plug in the fake version of an universal law. They're really extracting someone else essence, even without the awareness of the victim.

Seems to me that psychopaths are really one aspect of 'Nature's essence', that they follow the way of the Matter, they are its agents, and by their mean a lot of food for the moon is harvested. This reminds me once again Fulcanelli when he says we have to go against Nature, as paraphrased by D.Owason in the book The Zelator.

 

[kenlee]

After the attraction phase has begun, emotional and physical intimacy creates a love bond. In the early stages of intimacy building, verbal sharing of feelings and ideas lay the foundation of the love bond. Men high in psychopathic traits don’t have the normal spectrum of emotions so they compensate by being great talkers. A range of intense emotions generally makes normal men less talkative because they feel inhibited by these emotions. Men usually don’t cope with emotions by sharing them the way women do. Women then tend to read the psychopath’s sharing of “emotions” in a positive light. Psychopaths are known for their “gift of gab” from which their charm and charisma flow. Women often think they have hit the jackpot with the psychopath because they are used to inhibited normal men, who don’t talk much about their feelings. But along comes the loose-tongued psychopath who can charm her with the flowery language of love. Sharing of feelings, talking, and early eye-gazing are the beginning phases of creating the woman’s love bond. The more they talk, share feelings, spend time together, and make intense eye contact, the deeper she will attach.

I think that this part:

“Men high in psychopathic traits don’t have the normal spectrum of emotions so they compensate by being great talkers. A range of intense emotions generally makes normal men less talkative because they feel inhibited by these emotions. Men usually don’t cope with emotions by sharing them the way women do”

is really spot on as one identifying characteristic that describes the type of psychopathic male talked about in the book. It seems to me that a male psychopath can talk so easily and with so much charisma about his feelings (without some inhibition) only because he doesn’t have any feelings to inhibit him. I don’t think it means at all that that a man with a gift of gab is a psychopath but I think that a psychopath uses the gift of gab that he has as a weapon to manipulate and destroy.

A woman might get captivated by his smooth talk (after their emotional and physical intimacy) because if she's in an emotional state, she might project her own personality onto him. I think she wants to believe that she is "seeing him" and seeing his real personality, but if she is emotionally charged then she might be seeing a personification of her own personality projected onto him (onto a ‘sensitive screen' as it were) without her being aware of it. She smiles he smiles, she laughs he laughs, she’s kind he’s kind, she cries he cries and so on. Even the subtle nuances of her feelings are instantly and seamlessly reflected back to her with no hesitation (by the psychopath). It’s like he’s always in go, go, go mode. There’s no breaking mechanism inside of him where he can stop, pause, and begin to consider who she is, who he is, what her emotional state is, what his emotional state is, and use this as the basis to better understand their newly forming relationship.

If the guy is a psychopath then I think he instinctively knows that he has an advantage since he simply doesn’t have any emotions, yet she has, and he knows that she’s caught up within her own emotional state (a slave to her own heart as it were) and if it suits him then he won’t even hesitate to begin his manipulations to get what he wants. All the while, because of her emotional state, she sees him as she sees herself.

For example she might be, and see herself as a loving and giving person but if she does not consciously see that in herself, or at least become more conscious of how she sees herself , then she’ll only see it in him (as a caring and loving person who ‘loves’ her) and not as something in herself that she projects onto him. Then he’ll instinctively use that emotionally charged projection of hers to his own advantage.

I think what it takes is a conscious recognition of our own starry eyed chemical based states to help us become more aware of the personifications of our own personalities that we unconsciously project. Then I think when we are conscious of these kinds of things then our conscious awareness makes it possible for us to see these inner projections (and their chemical based emotional component) for what they are, as something inside of us and then we can become more free of its hold on us. Then, maybe, a new feeling based on our conscious awareness of the reality of the situation can enter our awareness from “top down” (conscious awareness first, then the emotion). A new possibility opens?

 

[StrangeCaptain]

With the psychopath, the woman has been engaged on all three levels IN THE CORRECT ORDER. But it is all based on fraud, lies, imitation, mimicry.

I think that there is something about this order of engagement that we need to pay attention to.

This caught my attention. Adhering to this order above is the only way I can have a fulfilling intimate relationship with another. On a physical level, I simply am not capable of sharing myself with another if this order has not been observed. The times I have tried to ignore this and be a "regular" guy are the times I have got myself into the most trouble.

But there was one situation in which I followed the order and still got into a lot of trouble... It was with a woman with psychopathic traits. This was about 6 or 7 years ago now and lasted about 6 months. I had always wondered how it was that I had followed the order that I prefer and yet I found myself in such a bad situation. Having read WWLP and Laura's analysis of it, it makes a lot more sense. Partners with psychopathic traits mimic this order.

I know I am simply restating what has been already said, but it is a pretty big idea.

As I was reading WWLP I was realizing that I felt like I had "got over it." In fact, I thought I had recovered years ago. But then there was this line in WWLP that Belibaste quoted:

A relationship with a psychopathic man is not like any other failed relationship. The women who loved psychopaths are not just bitter women scorned. It is simply not possible to have a relationship with a psychopath and not be harmed and damaged to a significant degree.

I realized that I may not even know how that awful time might have scarred my psyche or left parts of my internal landscape barren. I knew that damage was done to my relationship with my own sexuality, which frankly I do not care to talk about.

One of the things that jumped right out at me was the way such people use sleep deprivation. The last 3 months of the relationship I slept on average 3 or 4 hours per night. We were interacting in some kind of passion or conflict usually 5 to 8 hours a day. It was mind-boggling how this person could manufacture conflict, and it changed so often that I never really had the time to think about what was going on in that moment. It all changed too fast.

I was no rose, but reading this book definitely caused me to re-evaluate things. It is really rather embarassing to admit all of this, but oh well...

Of course, Laura began discussing how this order might begin to be observed amongst "normal" people. And a question came to mind...

Are all of the princesses, and much more rarely princes in towers, doomed to sit around waiting for the hero/heroine to show up?

 

[Tigersoap]

With the psychopath, the woman has been engaged on all three levels IN THE CORRECT ORDER. But it is all based on fraud, lies, imitation, mimicry.
I think that there is something about this order of engagement that we need to pay attention to.

There is something I've been wondering about, is that, even though the pourcentages of Male falling in love with a psychopathic women must be inferior (due to the numbers of male vs female psychopath).

Is this process involving the three centers the same for men ?

I somehow don't think it is, because, isn't it that men will usually have a physical attraction before an intellectual one ? (there are exceptions of course.). Or maybe the projection will come first through the emotions ?

There must be a bigger proportion of men getting involved with narcissistic women instead.

I suppose that the women psychopath will use a feminine vampire approach instead than the glib way of the male ?

Does this make sense ?

I don't want to divert the thread and turn it into a male oriented discussion but I am curious.

 

[Divide by Zero]

...
There must be a bigger proportion of men getting involved with narcissistic women instead.

I suppose that the women psychopath will use a feminine vampire approach instead than the glib way of the male ?

Does this make sense ?

I don't want to divert the thread and turn it into a male oriented discussion but I am curious.

Hi,
I have a friend from high school who got married to a narcisist who is manic depressive. She uses pity a lot on him to make him do things for her, even when it logically doesn't make sense to him. It was strange to see him, a strong independent person, to be under the control of her. He is acting as the knight in shining armor.

Narcissists have psychopath-like abilities. They can use emotions for self gain, not considering the other person's needs.

So, is it ok to think that narcissists can also fit into what this book explains?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Is this process involving the three centers the same for men ?

I somehow don't think it is, because, isn't it that men will usually have a physical attraction before an intellectual one ? (there are exceptions of course.). Or maybe the projection will come first through the emotions ?

I think that's the point, and it's important that you brought it up, because this thread applies equally to men as to women. Most men will have a physical attraction first, which then fuels the emotions, which fuel the intellect. This is what causes all sorts of problems. It's not that the process involving the three centers just applies to women, because both men and women can experience the wrong work of centers. The process is an ideal one and as such it doesn't happen very often because people usually date and marry solely out of physical attraction. Emotional bonds then develop based on that and the intellect covers for problems, projection, etc. In this way you "attach" yourself to someone who may not be right for you, the way a response gets "paired" to a stimulus which may not be appropriate, via conditioning. Of course, these problems can be worked through in some cases. Context is everything.

 

[Beau]

So, is it ok to think that narcissists can also fit into what this book explains?

Well I think that's a slippery slope because their are many people who exhibit narcissistic traits, who are just wounded individuals. Also the fact that narcissists "don't consider the other person's needs" is pretty much SOP for our world. In other words, if every person who did that was a narcissist their wouldn't be very many people left! So I don't know if that's a condition of narcissism as much as it is about "the way things are" in everyday life, just like using emotions for personal gain. The difference is the depth with which psychopaths go to in using these, and other, tools of manipulation.

 

[Renaissance]

With the psychopath, the woman has been engaged on all three levels IN THE CORRECT ORDER. But it is all based on fraud, lies, imitation, mimicry.
I think that there is something about this order of engagement that we need to pay attention to.

There is something I've been wondering about, is that, even though the pourcentages of Male falling in love with a psychopathic women must be inferior (due to the numbers of male vs female psychopath).

Is this process involving the three centers the same for men ?

I somehow don't think it is, because, isn't it that men will usually have a physical attraction before an intellectual one ? (there are exceptions of course.). Or maybe the projection will come first through the emotions ?

I think for the hook to be really made, it would still have to follow the bonding order that Laura described. That seems the process to reach the soul, which it what psychopaths target whether male or female. So then, perhaps the male who is hooked by the woman psychopath is actually less ponerized because they're able to follow that order of the centers which is rare in men.