Women Who Love Psychopaths

[Andromeda]

I think for the hook to be really made, it would still have to follow the bonding order that Laura described. That seems the process to reach the soul, which it what psychopaths target whether male or female. So then, perhaps the male who is hooked by the woman psychopath is actually less ponerized because they're able to follow that order of the centers which is rare in men.

I think you're jumping to conclusions. Approaching Infinity hits closer to the mark. The hook can be really made in a number of ways and it can start off with the physical/chemical hook and 'fire' of chemical attraction - for both men and woman - and then be manipulated through the verbal/behavioral skills of the psychopath. Men are not the only ones who are often attracted physically first - women can be too. A male psychopath can be the best talker in the world but if there is no physical attraction, he'll be less successful than a good looking male psychopath doing the same thing. The same applies for the female psychopath.

Also, the order Laura described is the ideal order of attachment for human beings - very, very, very few human beings actually follow that order due to programs. I think Laura's point is that when the ideal order is followed by the psychopath, it is devastating - but a hook can be put in place with physical attraction first as well, both with males and females - and dug deeper and manipulated by the 'emotional connection' of engaging the mind as well - and, ultimately, it is always devastating.

I've known way too many women in my life, (straight and gay) who were physically attracted first, all the time, to accept the idea that only guys are physically attracted first - it doesn't fly.

I think that a major problem is that very few people are able to recognize or admit to being physically attracted at first sight because it is socially/morally distasteful. Particularly for women but not excluding men. The desire to be good and morally decent can produce a mingling of the initial sexual pull with emotional energies that then go on to feed the intellect so that it can produce fantasies. A force to be reckoned with!

In short, the desire to be good ends up helping the psychopath do his job.

 

[mkrnhr]

I think that a major problem is that very few people are able to recognize or admit to being physically attracted at first sight because it is socially/morally distasteful.

Not only that IMHO, for that most people we don't have the knowledge of what love is. In the actual culture desire is equated with love, then if some people do not agree with it you may try to ask them what love is, and you'll get as many different answers as people you may ask. The psychopath detects what corrupted definition of love we have and fits into it. And usually it works very well because we are comfortable with physical/emotional attractiveness.

 

[Joe]

Reading this thread has brought to mind something I wrote after having been in a relationship with a girl that I cared about deeply. Unfortunately, her behavior reflected that she did not feel the same way for me. I suppose in a way, I was attempting to take the approach of the Knight with the painful result of what felt like my heart being torn apart. It more or less reflects my understanding of what it might involve to bring to a relationship the ability to cultivate a mutual understanding of each others heart and mind. I wrote this about a year ago and sort of parallels with the story of the Knight rescuing the princess:

It is such a sad thought that there exists so many women that have been treated badly by other guys in their life. Consequently, it seems that they protect themselves from any chance of being hurt by putting up these walls to emotionally distance themselves from such people. Unfortunately, these same women seem to form this tendency to categorize all guys has though they are the one that is intending to hurt them. In effect, this equates to an additional protection mechanism. By transferring past experience and superimposing it onto the present, women either begin to project an attitude of indifference and/or a cautious suspicion to guys with whom they are attracted minimizing any chance for a truly meaningful relationship to ever develop. By the formation of such an attitude directed at guys with whom they are actually considering entering into a relationship with women seem to sometimes switch their behavior to an offensive mode of "attack" to minimize the chance of having to defend themselves and become emotionally hurt once again. (The best defense is having a great offense might serve as a good analogy in this case.) They begin to display behavior characteristic of the person that had previously broken their heart. In acting in this way they sort of become the person that they hate but only in proportion to the level of protection they have previously formed.

It is unfortunate for those guys that value the heart and mind much more than they value the body and are possibly capable of giving to another both an experience to love and of love . When such guys meet this type of woman and then proceeds to make an attempt to tear down these "walls", he must endure her painful past via her actions for self-preservation expressed as this offensive mode of "attack." The response by the guy may be anger/indifference if he doesn't make an attempt nor desires to understand her present psychological state or a deep sort of sadness and empathy if he really is sincere in wanting to truly understand her heart and mind completely. Thus, the walls are much like a double-edged sword. If the guy is either incapable of understanding and/or unwilling to try then by the very actions taken by her to prevent enduring yet another painful experience, such guys are kept at bay. However, a guy that truly wants to understand her completely will also find his sincere heart kept at bay as well. The most that can result from this, it seems, is the development of a superficial relationship, if at all. However, if the guy is capable of understanding and has the willpower to experience the pain the woman has felt then he is given an opportunity to gain insight into her heart, mind and glimpse her true nature. Though her walls still very much exist, it is by his sincere Will to understand her heart and mind completely that will provide him the certain sustenance needed to climb her treacherous walls and allow him access to view her true self. If only the woman could see that there exists this guy that is fully willing to pay, even to bankruptcy, those emotional tolls that her pain is bringing to his heart. If only in one instant would she attempt to externally consider his feelings may the walls have a chance of being torn down, but he cannot convey this to her. But until this moment arrives he remains in a heart-aching standstill by the nature of his efforts to respect her freewill. If the chance does indeed arrive, the walls may finally be torn down. He must then move swiftly so that by the Will of his heart he may free her from her treacherous and self-preserving walls. And as a result of her Will to understand his inner heart’s true desire, they finally will have the chance to experience the nature of true Love. And each heart will have a chance to serve the other in their attempts to know not only themselves but each other’s heart and mind completely.

Have you considered that the resistance put up by a woman in the situation you describe is something that the man must endure? You seem to be saying that "Alas! Here I am, the knight capable of loving you totally and with abandon, all of you, from the most superficial thought to the deepest and darkest feeling! But Alas! You are too wounded to see this and let me in."

I'm not saying that it is true in your specific case, but given that you seemed to be talking in a general sense also, then maybe more often than not, if the man gives up, it is not because the woman would not let him in but rather because he did not in fact truly love her, or perhaps did not have sufficient knightly qualities to endure the test, and chose instead to essentially "blame the victim".

 

[Joe]

Of course, Laura began discussing how this order might begin to be observed amongst "normal" people. And a question came to mind...

Are all of the princesses, and much more rarely princes in towers, doomed to sit around waiting for the hero/heroine to show up?

I think that a "princess in a tower" is essentially a woman who embodies the archetypal nurturing and loving nature of the feminine who has had those qualities suppressed. It's possible that this is not present to the same degree in all women. Perhaps those women in whom it is most strongly present find it harder, or ultimately impossible, to live and survive (emotionally) in a patriarchal world like ours, and are the ones most in need of a "knight".

So I don't think all women are true princesses in towers (or at least so desperately in need of a knight), although its pretty clear that all would benefit greatly from a shift in the male dominated status quo, which would only happen if all men, individually and collectively, were to become real men.

As for having to sit around waiting, well, I suppose that is true, at least the waiting part, but it's not like there aren't many things to do and lessons to be learned in the meantime.

A prince in a tower is a different matter. You seem to be saying that you fit the bill of a prince in a tower and you also seem to be under the illusion that it is in any way appropriate for a man to be such a "prince in a tower". The very idea makes a mockery of the original order of the male female relationship. It basically describes a man who has decided that acting like a "princess" i.e. acting like a drama queen, creating unncessary drama, is the best way to get attention, and he is quite happy with it. It's the image of the "knight" dressed essentially in "drag", in princess clothes, in his tower shouting "HELP! HELP! Someone SAAAAVE ME!". It is of course a complete farce and usually done just for an excessive need for attention born of narcissism. The same type of man probably would be in the habit of creating unnecessary drama around others and then walking away leaving others to deal with the mess he made. For his part he sees nothing wrong with his actions since it gets him what he wants. It is, in all, a pretty conscienceless way to act.

 

[dant]

Somehow, I am reminded of "like attracts like". It is somehow
the bonding of the masculine with the feminine? Isn't that
what Laura describes in finding her soul mate? Is the "trick"
*knowing* how to discern the lies from the truth in order to
reach the truth?

Am making any sense!?

Dan

PS: I have now reached the (1000) millennium {and still here!}

 

[Catori]

Seeking truth, seeking solace, seeking peace
I am or was involved with a person diagnosed with BPD, it has been a roller coaster ride from the start, I admit. This person is charismatic and has a great gift of gab. He is very well read and just a unique individual, which is what I found so attractive. He was upfront about his intimacy issues, I thought that developing a friendship was better in the long run. We would hike and talk, he introduced me to many different concepts which are in the Wave books and Secret History. I admired his writing skills - so prolific. One week ago I was forced to put down my two 11 month old puppies and he went with me for support - or so I thought. I sobbed all the way home and he kept looking at me with disdain, I commented on it and received nothing back, a blank stare. I hated myself for having to put the pups down, I yelled - "you hate me" That was when he packed his things and said that's it, I have had enough. We went from saying I love you on the telephone nightly, to ending the entire relationship like the flip of a switch, cold, callous, arrogant, rigid and frank in one week. While reading this thread, I admit is a little above me, but I will read it again and again until I understand. It delves into the whys and hows..... But what do you do when it happens? I apologize if this is not the type of thread you are looking for on this forum. Just trying to find solid ground again. It is hard when the mind and heart are in two different places.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Seeking truth, seeking solace, seeking peace
I am or was involved with a person diagnosed with BPD, it has been a roller coaster ride from the start, I admit. This person is charismatic and has a great gift of gab. He is very well read and just a unique individual, which is what I found so attractive. He was upfront about his intimacy issues, I thought that developing a friendship was better in the long run. We would hike and talk, he introduced me to many different concepts which are in the Wave books and Secret History. I admired his writing skills - so prolific. One week ago I was forced to put down my two 11 month old puppies and he went with me for support - or so I thought. I sobbed all the way home and he kept looking at me with disdain, I commented on it and received nothing back, a blank stare. I hated myself for having to put the pups down, I yelled - "you hate me" That was when he packed his things and said that's it, I have had enough. We went from saying I love you on the telephone nightly, to ending the entire relationship like the flip of a switch, cold, callous, arrogant, rigid and frank in one week. While reading this thread, I admit is a little above me, but I will read it again and again until I understand. It delves into the whys and hows..... But what do you do when it happens? I apologize if this is not the type of thread you are looking for on this forum. Just trying to find solid ground again. It is hard when the mind and heart are in two different places.

Hi, Catori. I'm sorry you went through this. His treatment of you when you were in such a state of grief and doubt is unconscionable. Unfortunately, that kind of behavior (switching from declarations of love and understanding to callous disregard and emotional torture) is common for psychopaths and other pathologicals (including BPD). As hard as it is to accept, there ARE people for whom others are simply toys. As a friend of mine said, women are like vending machines for psychopaths. When they've gotten what they want out of you, they simply discard you with zero concern for your feelings or well being. It sounds like this is what your boyfriend did to you. When your emotions (the thing that makes you normal and human) got too much for him, he split without any concern. The only thing I can recommend is for you to read Sandra Brown's books, How To Spot a Dangerous Man and Women Who Love Psychopaths. Understanding what happened is the first step to recovering from the trauma of interacting with a pathological individual. Just know that it is not your fault and it is possible to avoid it happening again in the future.

 

[EmeraldHope]

Seeking truth, seeking solace, seeking peace
I am or was involved with a person diagnosed with BPD, it has been a roller coaster ride from the start, I admit. This person is charismatic and has a great gift of gab. He is very well read and just a unique individual, which is what I found so attractive. He was upfront about his intimacy issues, I thought that developing a friendship was better in the long run. We would hike and talk, he introduced me to many different concepts which are in the Wave books and Secret History. I admired his writing skills - so prolific. One week ago I was forced to put down my two 11 month old puppies and he went with me for support - or so I thought. I sobbed all the way home and he kept looking at me with disdain, I commented on it and received nothing back, a blank stare. I hated myself for having to put the pups down, I yelled - "you hate me" That was when he packed his things and said that's it, I have had enough. We went from saying I love you on the telephone nightly, to ending the entire relationship like the flip of a switch, cold, callous, arrogant, rigid and frank in one week. While reading this thread, I admit is a little above me, but I will read it again and again until I understand. It delves into the whys and hows..... But what do you do when it happens? I apologize if this is not the type of thread you are looking for on this forum. Just trying to find solid ground again. It is hard when the mind and heart are in two different places.

Catori,
I took am also soory you were treated this way. As someone who has been as psychopath magnet my whole life until I learned how to defend myself let me advise you of one thing that stick out to me in your above post that for me now set of red flags and alarm bells:

He was upfront about his intimacy issues

You need to understand that when someone says this to you, even as a friend, they cannot support you emotionally. So when you decided you would pursue a friendship, deep down did you hope he would get better and the relationship would change? Really examine your thinking and motives and be honest with yourself. Why would you want a frined that is incapable of intimacy. Please note intimacy does not mean sex in this context. The more incapable of intimacy they are the more sex they have usually.


Oftentimes a blank stare is a stop gap because you are showing an emotional reality he has no concept of and no ready made "appropriate respone to"
In a way his leaving the way he did was terror at being "found out".


It would help tremendously for you to become real clear what you define as healthy and appropriate "friends" to have. Then learn all you can about these different types and undertand you cannot become close with them.

This is not your fault. These people are attracted to emapthic, caring, giving, loving naieve people.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Catori,
I took am also soory you were treated this way. As someone who has been as psychopath magnet my whole life until I learned how to defend myself let me advise you of one thing that stick out to me in your above post that for me now set of red flags and alarm bells:

He was upfront about his intimacy issues

You need to understand that when someone says this to you, even as a friend, they cannot support you emotionally. So when you decided you would pursue a friendship, deep down did you hope he would get better and the relationship would change? Really examine your thinking and motives and be honest with yourself. Why would you want a frined that is incapable of intimacy. Please note intimacy does not mean sex in this context. The more incapable of intimacy they are the more sex they have usually.

This is a good point. Sandra Brown mentions these kind of clues, which we often ignore or gloss over if we don't know what to look for. And emotional unavailability is one of them. I really recommend How To Spot A Dangerous Man to learn more about what kind of clues to look out for.

 

[thevenusian]

I can very much sympathize with you, Catori, and am sorry for your painful experience. I, too, have had up close and personal experience with someone who was close to me who suffers from this personality disorder.

The first thing you should do is educate yourself about BPD. A couple good books on the subject are "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Randi Kreger and Paul Mason, and "I Hate You- Don't Leave Me" by Jerold Kriesman & Hal Straus. At least one of them can probably be found in most libraries. There is a website, _http://www.bpdcentral.com, which contains a wealth of information.

There is a big difference between BPD and psychopathy, but some of the expressive traits can be similar. There is also the matter of who is diagnosing, and also whether you only have the word of your BPD friend as evidence of a diagnosis. He may have been mis-diagnosed, or he may have been given another diagnosis but prefers BPD. If you go read the descriptions of BPD behavior, you will probably know if it fits. Sandra Brown's books, mentioned above, are very much worth reading for your own protection.

One of the most difficult things to come to terms with (at least it was for me) is that there is nothing you can do to fix it. If someone with BPD is aware enough of their plight to seek treatment and work on it, that could be an acceptable situation. But most sufferers cannot or will not see that there is anything wrong with their behavior. If you don't have any reason for the relationship to endure, you would probably be better off just cutting it off and resisting any attempts on his part to draw you back in, IMO.

Take care of yourself and get armed with knowledge.

 

[truth seeker]

Seeking truth, seeking solace, seeking peace
I am or was involved with a person diagnosed with BPD, it has been a roller coaster ride from the start, I admit. This person is charismatic and has a great gift of gab. He is very well read and just a unique individual, which is what I found so attractive. He was upfront about his intimacy issues, I thought that developing a friendship was better in the long run. We would hike and talk, he introduced me to many different concepts which are in the Wave books and Secret History. I admired his writing skills - so prolific. One week ago I was forced to put down my two 11 month old puppies and he went with me for support - or so I thought. I sobbed all the way home and he kept looking at me with disdain, I commented on it and received nothing back, a blank stare. I hated myself for having to put the pups down, I yelled - "you hate me" That was when he packed his things and said that's it, I have had enough. We went from saying I love you on the telephone nightly, to ending the entire relationship like the flip of a switch, cold, callous, arrogant, rigid and frank in one week. While reading this thread, I admit is a little above me, but I will read it again and again until I understand. It delves into the whys and hows..... But what do you do when it happens? I apologize if this is not the type of thread you are looking for on this forum. Just trying to find solid ground again. It is hard when the mind and heart are in two different places.

Sorry for my confusion, but I feel there is something missing from this story. Is there anything you can think of that you may have said or done to anger him? Can you remember the comment you initially made to him? You said that he said "I've had enough." Do you know what he was referring to?

You also said that you "thought that developing a friendship was better in the long run" yet you were both saying "I love you on the telephone nightly". This seems to be a contradiction. Were you friends or were you in a relationship? Thanks for the clarification. :)

 

[Lilou]

Consider yourself lucky, Catori, that this man cut and run abruptly. How long were you in a relationship with this man?

You would do yourself a great service by NOT having any further contact with him, ever. Just go cold turkey.

As mentioned, Sandra Brown's books will help bring this into perspective and also drive home the fact that "these people are broke and cannot be fixed!" And regardless of the diagnosis, BPD or psychopathy, or whatever.....pathological is pathological. They will never be a suitable partner.

I'm sorry you had to suffer from this person, but sometimes we all need a shock to wake us up and see that these type of people are the reason the world is in such a mess. After learning some basics about psychopathy, I would suggest reading Political Ponerology, to see how these people, who lack empathy, effect the world on a grand scale.

 

[RyanX]

One week ago I was forced to put down my two 11 month old puppies and he went with me for support - or so I thought. I sobbed all the way home and he kept looking at me with disdain, I commented on it and received nothing back, a blank stare. I hated myself for having to put the pups down, I yelled - "you hate me" That was when he packed his things and said that's it, I have had enough. We went from saying I love you on the telephone nightly, to ending the entire relationship like the flip of a switch, cold, callous, arrogant, rigid and frank in one week.

Catori,

I'm sorry for the loss of your puppies and the subsequent break-up you've been through. However, I'm kind of wondering about the same things Truth Seeker is wondering. Something seems a bit off here where you say that you yelled "you hate me" at your boyfriend. It doesn't appear he said anything to you from what you describe. Maybe you could fill us in a little more on the details of what happened here or what led up to this incident? There's not much detail here, so I don't want to take what you're saying out of context.

Keep in mind it is rather difficult for us to "see ourselves", especially when there are a lot of powerful emotions involved such as the case in a break-up situation. Sometimes all it takes is some time for the energy of those emotions to wind down and process for clarity to come. You seem like you've been through a lot recently.

 

[Catori]

Thank you all for your wise advise and suggested reading, this relationship was wrong from the start. Throughout this past year we had had many separations, due to what he called my breakdowns. He said he had had enough because once again, I was crying. This time it was over the loss of the pups, prior times it was the back and forth of being friends to being companions to being lovers. It was only recently he admitted that we were truly in a relationship and was committed to it.

Yes, in the future, I must be aware of the red flags, there were many. This was the first relationship I entered in 15 years because the fellas I chose were inappropriate. So just taking a sabbatical without education does not work.

Truth Seeker, thank you for your thought provoking words, I have rehashed this over and over. I think it is important to see where I was wrong because it is the only behavior I can change and become a better person in the long run.

I appreciate everyones comments, today I feel stronger, practicing EE and putting one foot in front of the other. I think I shall read the suggested books and stay on this forum prior to dating again.

 

[truth seeker]

Hi Catori,

Thanks so much for the clarification. I too am sorry you've had such a rough time of it. Yes, the suggested reading will give you much insight to yourself as well as others. Enjoy! :)