Women Who Love Psychopaths

Los said:
I think for the hook to be really made, it would still have to follow the bonding order that Laura described. That seems the process to reach the soul, which it what psychopaths target whether male or female. So then, perhaps the male who is hooked by the woman psychopath is actually less ponerized because they're able to follow that order of the centers which is rare in men.
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I think you're jumping to conclusions. Approaching Infinity hits closer to the mark. The hook can be really made in a number of ways and it can start off with the physical/chemical hook and 'fire' of chemical attraction - for both men and woman - and then be manipulated through the verbal/behavioral skills of the psychopath. Men are not the only ones who are often attracted physically first - women can be too. A male psychopath can be the best talker in the world but if there is no physical attraction, he'll be less successful than a good looking male psychopath doing the same thing. The same applies for the female psychopath.

Also, the order Laura described is the ideal order of attachment for human beings - very, very, very few human beings actually follow that order due to programs. I think Laura's point is that when the ideal order is followed by the psychopath, it is devastating - but a hook can be put in place with physical attraction first as well, both with males and females - and dug deeper and manipulated by the 'emotional connection' of engaging the mind as well - and, ultimately, it is always devastating.

I've known way too many women in my life, (straight and gay) who were physically attracted first, all the time, to accept the idea that only guys are physically attracted first - it doesn't fly.
 
Yep, gotta agree with you there, Anart.

All my life I've only been attracted to a fairly narrow physical "type", and if the psychopath in my life (my second husband) hadn't fit that type, he wouldn't have got anywhere with me. It was only after I was hooked by that initial attraction that he used all of the other classic psychopath tricks to reel me in and keep me "bonded"....
 
Patience said:
Are all of the princesses, and much more rarely princes in towers, doomed to sit around waiting for the hero/heroine to show up?
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You might be interested in one story from Clarissa Pinkola Estes' book, "Women Who Run With The Wolves". The story is called "Vasalisa the Wise", and is analyzed in chapter 3, Nosing Out the Facts: The Retrieval of Intuition as Initiation.

This is a rare story in that there is no prince to save the princess, in fact, there is almost no masculine archetypal presence in the story, and whatever is there is very passive (Vasilisa's father and later the tzar). The "princess", Vasilisa, has to save herself with the help of a magic doll that her mother gave her, which represents knowledge and intuition transmitted by women to women.
 
PepperFritz said:
Yep, gotta agree with you there, Anart.

All my life I've only been attracted to a fairly narrow physical "type", and if the psychopath in my life (my second husband) hadn't fit that type, he wouldn't have got anywhere with me. It was only after I was hooked by that initial attraction that he used all of the other classic psychopath tricks to reel me in and keep me "bonded"....
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I agree as well, from many examples including mine, physical attraction was a first criteria. Doesn't necessarily mean "good looking" either, more "body chemistry", if you like.
Conversely, I've known cases where the woman was not physically attracted to the guy at all (and even put off in some way), but she wanted so much to fall in love that she hooked herself through the emotions/the intellect, and THEN, was physically attracted.
 
I've been following this thread as I "fell for" and married a psychopath and it took 28 years for me to be able to "see" him for what he really was. The first hook was physical attraction, although I'm fairly certain that he would not necessarily be categorized as a very attractive man by most women. However, charm, intelligence and the ability to convincingly and very successfully persuade and influence me and others, does describe some of what I think of as his "power-traits". After dating this man for 4 years I came very close to escaping the hook when he relocated to South America. Upon his return, he literally stalked me and for the second time - I succumbed to his powerful influence over me. I married him. It was only following my decision to divorce, moving 800 miles away and several years of very minimal interactions with him that I was really capable of understanding what happened, how it happened and why.

During the last year of my father's life, I was apparently ready to identify some specific traits in my own father that I realized had "set me up" for my encounter with the man I ultimately married. It was even more difficult to face the objective truth regarding my own father. It was equally difficult to face the truth regarding my own willingness to continue fostering the belief in the existence of "the father I always wanted" versus "the father I actually had". Some of the most prominent traits demonstrated by both of these "significant male figures" were:
narcissistic
manipulative
mental/emotional/physical abuse
capacity for extreme cruelty to others
complete and total lack of empathy
very convincing mimicry of emotions
push-button charm
illusions of grandeur

Although Martha Stout's books were not available to serve as a warning regarding my marital choice, her book "The Psychopath Next Door" did serve to awaken me to my father's abuse and his psychopathic traits.

In my case, what all this reading has done is to help me to re-structure what I now think of as my "automatic" perception. I have greatly decreased my own emotional need to automatically trust and believe in all men - as well as all women as fundamentally "good". I can now accept that there are successful psychopathic men as well as women. I know that I can and probably do encounter them on a regular basis. I am much more careful now. I no longer expect them to be obvious to me. Especially, because I accept that I was programmed and conditioned to be vulnerable. In my father's case, it took the weakening that accompanied a slow death for him to completely "come out of the closet" and show his true colors. His loss of physical power over others unmasked all the mimicry that I had always fallen for.

The most difficult lesson to accept and to understand, was and still is... the charismatic charm. Now, when I meet someone who is extraordinarily charming, I head for the hills.
 
Charm is really something that seems to appeal to our fairy tale fantasies. Nowadays, it may be good to see charm as a sales pitch, just like a salesman would do to entice you to buy his product.

The conundrum is, what is "sales" type charm and what is genuine charm? I suppose only time can tell, but one needs to keep their wits about them. Easier said than done.
 
I work in a sales environment (last four years), and I have noted that the best sales people are almost always people who posses most of the predatory traits associated with psychopaths. They seem to have the same skills of identifying a persons weak point instantly and then taking advantage of what they have uncovered. I have also noticed that it works equally well for women and men, especially when they are working with the opposite sex.

Since I don't have much chance to get to know these people outside of work, I can't say that they are highly likely to be psychopaths, but I can identify the behaviors, or like behaviors in them. Working in this field has greatly helped me with identifying and understanding these types of beings and the behaviors associated with them.

I know this is way off topic here, and apologise for doing so, but I do have a point. My point is, maybe people could take advantage of these kind of situations when they are faced with them. They could observe what is happening, and learn from it. It just might help someone to tie into to some of their own real life situations they are facing and the knowledge learned could be very beneficial. I know it has taught me a great deal and I think this is why I have put myself it this type of situation; to learn and grow my knowledge.

Just my two cents,

gwb
 
trobar said:
During the last year of my father's life, I was apparently ready to identify some specific traits in my own father that I realized had "set me up" for my encounter with the man I ultimately married. It was even more difficult to face the objective truth regarding my own father. It was equally difficult to face the truth regarding my own willingness to continue fostering the belief in the existence of "the father I always wanted" versus "the father I actually had".
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I hear you. I'm just coming to grips with the contradictions in my father's behavior. He is great at playing the loving father role when it suits him. The difference between that and the degree of cruelty he's capable of is simply mind boggling. My X is exactly like him in that respect. My mind literally erased certain memories, because it could not make sense of the contrast.

Women Who Love Psychopaths said:
Women who tested this high in empathy may have been raised by adults or parents who were pathological and/or addicted. Children raised by narcissists and psychopaths learn early on how to cater to the needs of the pathological parent in order to avoid punishment or wrath. Remember that one of her traits may be to “avoid punishment.” If this was set up as an early childhood behavior pattern because she learned that the wrath of pathologicals was to be avoided at all costs, her bundle of cooperation traits were likely produced in that environment. After all, it would be smart and safer for a child to be highly cooperative in a household that was being run by a pathological parent. The trait and skill of empathy in that environment would be emotionally safeguarding to the child, if the child could figure out how to empathize with the pathological parents instead of hating and fighting with them. The art of empathy was probably very helpful to the child. If she was raised in a home with an alcoholic, mentally ill, or otherwise pathological parent, her skills in cooperation were probably created at a very early age.
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Avoiding punishment, which can also be something as minor as the withdrawal of affection, can be so automatic, one fails to even realize that they're doing it.
 
This article might interest you:

http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2008/03/doing-justice-to-normal-children-of.html

Miss Isness said:
I hear you. I'm just coming to grips with the contradictions in my father's behavior. He is great at playing the loving father role when it suits him. The difference between that and the degree of cruelty he's capable of is simply mind boggling. My X is exactly like him in that respect. My mind literally erased certain memories, because it could not make sense of the contrast.
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Divide by Zero said:

Narcissists have psychopath-like abilities. They can use emotions for self gain, not considering the other person's needs.

So, is it ok to think that narcissists can also fit into what this book explains?
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Absolutely. The book is not just about psychopaths, per se. Narcissists and sociopaths. I just finished reading it and passed the book along to my mum.

I too had my own, live-in narcissist for a little over two years. I have degrees in psychology and social work and I still was unable to recognize my narcissist in the beginning. (Shows just how valuable a traditional education in psychology is.) It took me a couple of months to figure out what exactly was wrong with him -- I just thought he was "working my nerves". Even after I pegged him as someone with NPD I still stayed with him. :cry: I left him once, he stalked me and I went back. At one point, I attempted to make myself forget that he had NPD. :-[
He fit most of the criteria in WWLP -- and I'll spare you the details --but I think he must've been an itsy-bitsy, teensy-weensy narcissist because I don't feel really damaged by him. (I wouldn't touch a relationship with a ten foot pole right now but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.) I spent a lot of time studying him and perhaps even more time reinforcing the emotional brick wall I'd put up. (He didn't seem to notice. Gee, I wonder why?) Despite the almost constant criticism, lies, cheating and other assorted ickiness, I see that period of my life --it was only 7 months ago -- as a real awakening to the nature of psychopathy. "Learning is fun", she said after the fact.
It's funny that about a year into our "relationship" I stumbled upon the material on SOTT and really started to have my eyes pried open to the reality around me. I think it shielded me from him and pulled me out of the pit of and lies -- both his and my own -- I had tripped into. Knowledge Protects after all.

I hope I'm not treating this subject too lightly but I consider it a real boon to have had my own petty tyrant for a while.

Cha
 
Hi purplehaze,

Thank you for the links. I am very well versed on the content both articles provided. I could elaborate more, but that is not what I was trying to add to this thread.

I am trying to make the point, that if we take advantage of these everyday situations we are all faced with in this life, we can use them to learn about the tactics used against us by psychopaths. We all face these predatory sales situations, on the web, on the phone, and in person, on a regular basis. Why not make use of these situations, to better prepare ourselves for the many other situations we potentially can encounter. If we can learn to increase our awareness when in these types of situations, I think it would lead to being more aware of all other possible potential types of attach.

gwb
 
anart said:
Los said:
I think for the hook to be really made, it would still have to follow the bonding order that Laura described. That seems the process to reach the soul, which it what psychopaths target whether male or female. So then, perhaps the male who is hooked by the woman psychopath is actually less ponerized because they're able to follow that order of the centers which is rare in men.
Click to expand...

I think you're jumping to conclusions. Approaching Infinity hits closer to the mark. The hook can be really made in a number of ways and it can start off with the physical/chemical hook and 'fire' of chemical attraction - for both men and woman - and then be manipulated through the verbal/behavioral skills of the psychopath.
Click to expand...

Yes, my focus was a bit narrow. I was getting a bit caught up in my own thinking. Thanks for pointing out the above.


Anart said:
I've known way too many women in my life, (straight and gay) who were physically attracted first, all the time, to accept the idea that only guys are physically attracted first - it doesn't fly.
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I certainly agree. I was overly focused on a male perspective and didn't mean to imply that.
 
WWLP said:
Trance produces perceptual biases. That means if the psychopath is telling her wonderful things and she is euphoric with him, she tends to associate wonderful and euphoric things with the memory
of him…even after he’s turned into a monster. While in trance, a woman tends to “cement” what she felt or learned in that state. That’s why it’s so difficult for women to believe he’s a liar, swindler, or cheater because she learned all the wonderful things about him in trance states that have been “cemented” in her memory. If you ask her which sense of him feels “stronger” inside: the memory of herself intensely bonded to him or his cheating, she will say, “the memory of the bonding.”

Even beyond the “cementing” of the sense of him in her memory is another problem with state dependent learning. What is learned in one state (euphoria, happiness, intense sexuality and bonding) may have little influence on the behavior exhibited in a different state. When the woman catches him stealing her life’s savings, the fact of his stealing has little influence on the state dependent learning of him as her lover, the one she bonded with, the one who brings her to euphoria.

State dependent learning also influences motivation and performance. When we wonder why it’s difficult for women to leave psychopaths, the difficulty is connected at least in part, to how trance has affected her state dependent learning of motivation to leave and her actual performance of leaving. This isn’t what she chooses to feel, this is the nature of state dependent learning that often happens in trance states.

A recurring theme in the women’s recovery is related to state dependent learning. Women get stuck because it’s easier to remember the good memories than the bad. The bad memories become distant or murky and when she thinks about him in general, up pops the good stuff and it becomes hard for her to remember why she’s disbelieving him or wanting to leave him.
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I thought it was interesting that one of the things listed as inducing trance states is music. Also included on the list is the tendency to dissociate due to childhood abuse. It's become apparent to me that I have become adept at moving in and out of trance states, without ever realizing the potency of programming that takes place in those altered states. I literally had to write, and regularly re-read accounts of conflicts with my X before finding the will to get separated. It is still surprising how many unpleasant memories I tend to forget at moments of weakness. I go back to those written accounts again, and I'm shocked at what I've been through.

WWLP said:
Additionally, suggestibility is related to poor memory recall which in the women is likely to begin happening in the relationship due to stress, fatigue, and trance. The higher her level of sleep deprivation is, the higher the level of suggestibility. Almost all the women reported sleep deprivation.

The women are likely to become more suggestible as the relationship continues on, because of the confusion created by the psychopath’s lying, cheating, and the dichotomous behavior. As she thinks her mind is beginning to play tricks on her (as the psychopath encourages her to believe), the more suggestible she will become. When he tells her she didn’t see, hear, or experience something, she will likely believe it.

People who have high levels of suggestibility also have less accurate recall of events. Women who have state dependent learning are prone to remembering the good things of the relationship as opposed to the bad. They may actually have less accurate recall of the bad memories due to suggestibility. State dependent learning and suggestibility then, may serve as a double whammy against her ability to hold tight to the true abusive memories of the psychopath’s behavior. Holding on to memories of betrayal and abuse is important because these enable leaving and later recovery.
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In the beginning of my relationship with my X, he openly admitted that my memory was superior. As the years went by, however, his continuous, subtle undermining made it possible for him to revise history, and cast doubt on my ability to remember. That had a noticeable effect on my ability to hold my own in conflicts with anyone. I began seriously doubting my mental recall at all times. That was quite an accomplishment on his part, since I was forced to memorize bible verses when I was very young (my father was in charge of 'Sunday school', where I invariable won the prize for memorizing the most verses). As I got older, I memorized all the names of products, and prices in a single day, at a huge deli I worked at. The owner, who was Arabic, commented that I was 'good enough to be a man'.

WWLP said:
The psychopath and the stage of his luring are as shallow and phoney as the cut out.

With a complete straight face, he can say one thing and do another, do something and say the opposite, or say and do the opposite of what he did last week. These dichotomies produce serious distress in the women because of the chronic instability in the relationship. As they try to align themselves with his belief system, it shifts. As they try to align with his behaviors or promises, these shift. This constant shifting and moving keeps women off-balance and continuously striving to stabilize the relationship.
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Aside from producing distress, the anger that is produced by the contradictions, goes completely underground while one tries to cope with the unpredictability. Because the psychopath has no self doubt, is a master at casting doubt on others, and increasing suggestability, it leaves his/her partner always trying to compensate for 'misunderstandings'. The unacknowledged anger eats one up from the inside out, making it all the more difficult to find the energy to leave.
 
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