Women who seek knowledge

Henchman 21 said:
I

I’ve studied the “woke” extensively. I know it when I see it and I’m seeing it. And yes this is our concern.
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Sometimes a “safe space” is both needed and legitimate to enable someone to feel safe enough to open up and learn to trust others in their environment…

Conversely both Woke and anti-woke are inconsistent in their interpretation of such things: When reduced to logic, sex-specific bathrooms and changing rooms are “safe spaces”…

Yet the “Woke” want to abolish them, and the anti-Woke want to preserve them!

Hmmm…

Philosophically, there IS a discussion that needs to be had, but neither side wants to reduce the discussion to objective facts.

But that is a both distraction and discussion for a different place and time!

The real question is: Do you not trust the folks in this community to keep things both honest and real?

My experience of this community is that folks are welcoming, enlightened, intuitive and insightful! They quickly get to the root of any concern!

Meanwhile, all communications are public - both within the community and to the outside world! There are no exclusionary conversations held in private!

As a male, there are many conversations that I would be both reluctant and squeamish to be part of - even if publicly accessible…
 
Hi, Sybill. It looks like you’ve already got some women in the room, so that’s good. And it looks like some opinions differ, which is better. That contrast (which can come off as uncomfortable when we’re uncertain and trying to reassess our personal situations) offers a wealth of information.

What is it that you would like to gain from the thread? Do you picture it as a place to exchange stories, or a place to stretch your perception, or a place to find comfort/support, etc?

And what is it about specifically women’s input that you require? Maybe some more details can help clarify the goal.
 
woneill1701 said:
Sometimes a “safe space” is both needed and legitimate to enable someone to feel safe enough to open up and learn to trust others in their environment…

Conversely both Woke and anti-woke are inconsistent in their interpretation of such things: When reduced to logic, sex-specific bathrooms and changing rooms are “safe spaces”…

Yet the “Woke” want to abolish them, and the anti-Woke want to preserve them!

Hmmm…

Philosophically, there IS a discussion that needs to be had, but neither side wants to reduce the discussion to objective facts.

But that is a both distraction and discussion for a different place and time!

The real question is: Do you not trust the folks in this community to keep things both honest and real?

My experience of this community is that folks are welcoming, enlightened, intuitive and insightful! They quickly get to the root of any concern!

Meanwhile, all communications are public - both within the community and to the outside world! There are no exclusionary conversations held in private!

As a male, there are many conversations that I would be both reluctant and squeamish to be part of - even if publicly accessible…
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The opening post is saying (and I hope I’m giving it a fair reduction here) because of historical oppression of women by men women were not able to advance in the same way men have been able to in relation to “the work” and it is of specific importance that the work was done by Laura, a woman.

This was followed by a brief description of “wound collecting” and assumed harder times because of being a woman. Notice that she doesn’t seem to think that the life of her husband of past life likely died in battle so the level of oppression is up for debate already. Followed directly by a description of the Neanderthal like men that occupied her home area.

This is wrapped up with a request to have a women’s only discussion of “the work”. I think the Original Post has too much oppressor / oppressed focal point for it to be considered a good idea for discussion, especially if its attempt is to only discuss ‘one side of the story’ or ‘no men allowed’.

I am in no way against subjects of gender and “the work” being discussed or even asking for women’s input specifically when appropriate.

I do have a problem when we are looking at the work through a lens that has assumed oppression baked into it and it is not obvious to me that men have had an advantage to women in regards to “the work”.

To answer your question on whether or not I trust the group. Yes. This is the best place in town but that requires maintenance. If we aren’t vigilant we can not preserve integrity.

I came across what I consider to be a bad idea because I think it rhymes very much with damaging critical theories. Is it possible that I am wrong? Absolutely!
 
Henchman 21 said:
You’ve talked down to me on a few occasions now, treating me as if I am not capable of civil discourse. If you would like to refute what I have said or if you are willing to tell me which books I should get from the library I would be happy to listen.
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The voice in my head probably did. My written English language experience is biased towards technical reports, not very useful in a conversation setting, and I have no experience with discourse, debate etc. My mother tongue is Romanian, and that might be perceived as rude. Actually, back in 1994 when starting working for a proper British company in South Africa I was called rude by the British colleagues for being direct, asking questions and not speaking in statements.
However, there might be yet, another aspect, or a feedback loop. The direct formulation lacking justification or motivation might seem patronizing and might produce unwanted feelings of disregard. Sorry for that. In my formulation, I try to avoid producing/involving 'body of evidence' type explicit information for privacy reasons both mine and others. So, again is far from intentionally harm anyone with my words.
I do not want to refute what you said. I merely suggested for you to verify your interpretation out of courtesy for someone you did not know. Books? You really do not want me to recommend any books. You were just saying. :)
 
pinkfreud said:
Hi, Sybill. It looks like you’ve already got some women in the room, so that’s good. And it looks like some opinions differ, which is better. That contrast (which can come off as uncomfortable when we’re uncertain and trying to reassess our personal situations) offers a wealth of information.

What is it that you would like to gain from the thread? Do you picture it as a place to exchange stories, or a place to stretch your perception, or a place to find comfort/support, etc?

And what is it about specifically women’s input that you require? Maybe some more details can help clarify the goal.
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Gain? I don't understand this! I imagined this forum as a place where people can exchange ideas, stories and generally have a chat about things. I was born into a female body in this lifetime. I can't change this. If men want to chip in to talk about women's stuff, fine. Why am I attacked and accused by henchman? Why he is so rude to me? Why am I woke? I am so disappointed about this forum. Sorry.

Even my husband said that he doesn't understand why am I called sexist! This is so ironic.
I just remembered Monty Pythons sketch in Brian when 'Lorettta' said he wants to have kids. But he doesn't he a womb, but he has a right to have children anyway!
You don't have a womb to give birth, no breast to breastfeed but you fight for your right to include a conversation where this might be a topic! What utter nonsense. And I am accused to be woke!
And the best part: I never excluded anyone! Why would or how could?
 
@Sybill, since you are at Wave book 2, you have much further to read and learn. Observing the history and the present times, one could say that the women had it bad in the past and have it easier now due to greater equality etc. But, this is a conclusion which is erroneous due to the subject matter not explored deeply by the one who concludes. Feminism is one of the movements which have been heaped on the masses to destroy the family unit further by corrupting the roles both males and females play within the family. Its a crisis of identity and both males and females are simply not knowledeable enough to play their roles properly. This manifests in its own horrible way in different countries and surroundings.

But, you see, because you are raising this as a question or a subject of discussion, this is a good thing for your's and everyone else's learning. So, it is fine to identify with Laura being a mother and doing what she did and associating that to the female power to an extent, however, one must continue to evolve their understanding and outgrow that mindset to internalise that both men and women are capable of achieving similar heights. In saying that, men and women are different and their methods will differ. E.g. women were the original shamans as its a role that suited them the best. Now this topic is rather explosive and there are multiple threads on the forum which cover this well.

But, to help you move forward, keep reading the Wave and feel free to share your thoughts and experiences in this thread like you have till now.

@Henchman 21, you must understand that not everyone is at the same level of understanding when they are seeking. If you are really that well discoursed in civility and then you would know how to read a situation well and adjust your approach accordingly. Knowledge should make one more humble as opposed to stroking the ego. You are trying to act like a moderator by using "we" a lot. Is that your role on the forum? Fwiw
 
Sybil, I understand that you are upset. When I say gain, I mean to say what are you looking to increase, right? Sometimes people want input or advice, sometimes they seek moral support, and sometimes they look for friends. Maybe all. This is why I ask.
The forum is a big place with many helpful threads for just those things.
Me, I am pretty reserved usually, and I have begun to ask myself before engaging, what is my motivation? I might be overthinking, but I find it useful.
I think that having more of an emphasis on the “nuts and bolts” of motherhood clarifies what you would like to have conversations about. And then it makes sense why you have a specific crowd in mind.
It has been awhile since I read the Wave series, but just a few months ago I revisited Amazing Grace (it has been years since I read them the first time.) Anyway, I think you will appreciate it very much! What Laura went through really is amazing.
If Henchman misread the situation, then that is his lesson to work through. It happens to the best of us (humans, I mean.)
I didn’t read his input as being against you, but these sorts of things become impossible to read at points. That’s not a fun place to get stuck.
Anyway, I hope what I say hasn’t added insult to perceived injury. And I hope we can continue to work together. Share some mom stuff maybe.
I’ve got one kiddo, just turned 11.
It doesn’t feel like that much time has passed, but I have these times where I suddenly just see it, you know? Like my brain suddenly puts it together that she isn’t six anymore and she will be driving soon. It takes my breath away every time.
I would love to hear one of your happy times if you care to share.
 
Sybill said:
One significant part of why the Wave books are so appealing to me is the fact, that it is a woman, a mother who is in the quest for knowledge. It is not easy for women and as history proves that it was dangerous for women to seek objective knowledge. While females had a hard time getting any closer to knowledge, it was almost impossible for mothers. Looking after the house, the children, the husband... if one actually survived the childbearing age.
After one LBL (Life Between Life) session I felt one of my past life. I felt because this is the only way I can describe it. I was a young woman, holding a baby in my arms to wave goodbye to my husband who would go to the war on the side of Napoleon. He never came back and I died with my baby. We starved to death. I felt that pain. I can still feel it. It is still echoing in my soul. I know it was countless lives full of pain as a mother who lost her child. I wonder how many of us, mothers, carry this unspoken pain inside. I'm am not a feminist, (I don't believe in 'ism' s) but the history of humankind was not kind to women and mothers. It is a difficult path for women to seek out knowledge and even more difficult to apply the knowledge when one has to cook, clean, and look after the children. Men had the 'luxury' to travel, study, engage in politics, while women were restricted in every possible way.
Only in recent times, women had equal rights to pursue their interests freely. However, social dogmas and expectations still apply. I was born and grew up in a country where young women had to grab a man quickly and keep them satisfied in the marriage because if they don't another younger and prettier woman will steal the man. There was no place for women who want to study and seek knowledge.
I can relate so much to Laura's story. I'm only on the second W. book but looking forward to reading Amazing Grace soon. Just like Laura, I felt the pain of humankind going through me after the birth of my son and I still feel it. It was part of the awakening process. Countless nights on the internet researching, made me question the true nature of our world. Now, I could never see the world the same way as I saw before. This new knowledge is pushing me to uncharted roads and painful self-discovery. It is unnerving.

In this thread, I would like to start a conversation with women, mothers on their experience on the path of seeking knowledge.
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You know, I kind of see where you are coming from. When you say men had more freedom than women historically speaking, what men do you mean? There's whole races of men who were enslaved for centuries and literally had no freedoms, yet there are others who were nothing but meat fodder who either had to fight in wars they knew nothing about or carry out back-breaking jobs e.g. work in mines or farm all day to provide for the families. I'm not sure existence per se was a luxury item for the majority of men or women. Everybody struggled unless you were one of the few ones who were born into wealth or similar. A woman in a wealthy household surely had more freedoms and luxuries than a man who had nothing?

In any case, so I don't think the framing of the scene that you put forth is entirely correct, factually speaking. It may have been correct for a slither but not the whole. Yes, the top strip of society was always ruled by men but these men were a small fraction of what constituted all men. It's not right to monopolise suffering and pain to yourself or your group as you can't objectively say you have the whole picture. You can say you suffered but you really can't say you suffered more than others like it's a competition.

What I did get from this post though is that you're trying to understand things from your point of view. You want to interact with other similar to you. You are a woman and a mother and you want to interact with other women and other mothers to compare notes on your chosen subject. I think it's better to just say that straight - at least it's honest. It'll come across rather sexist though 😅.
 
Interesting. I always thought of the work; the search for self-knowledge as...non-binary! But I can also see that the machines of men and women are indeed Functionally and bio-chemically quite different. (And that certainly plays out in the experiential realm)

A conversation about that is actually a great idea for an advanced class in the school. Fertile ground indeed! (Ahem) But Excluding One of the sexes from that exploration ...?
 
SOTTREADER said:
You know, I kind of see where you are coming from. When you say men had more freedom than women historically speaking, what men do you mean? There's whole races of men who were enslaved for centuries and literally had no freedoms, yet there are others who were nothing but meat fodder who either had to fight in wars they knew nothing about or carry out back-breaking jobs e.g. work in mines or farm all day to provide for the families. I'm not sure existence per se was a luxury item for the majority of men or women. Everybody struggled unless you were one of the few ones who were born into wealth or similar. A woman in a wealthy household surely had more freedoms and luxuries than a man who had nothing?

In any case, so I don't think the framing of the scene that you put forth is entirely correct, factually speaking. It may have been correct for a slither but not the whole. Yes, the top strip of society was always ruled by men but these men were a small fraction of what constituted all men. It's not right to monopolise suffering and pain to yourself or your group as you can't objectively say you have the whole picture. You can say you suffered but you really can't say you suffered more than others like it's a competition.

What I did get from this post though is that you're trying to understand things from your point of view. You want to interact with other similar to you. You are a woman and a mother and you want to interact with other women and other mothers to compare notes on your chosen subject. I think it's better to just say that straight - at least it's honest. It'll come across rather sexist though 😅.
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I try to understand things from a different point of view, however, it is not easy, as our objectivity could be clouded involuntarily. I never meant to offend any men. I do apologize if I did. What I meant with my historical evaluation is, that these are facts but no one's fault. It was a societal reality. Women have reinforced these ideas just like men. Surely, under no circumstances you would call Cicero a Neanthertal because he was ferociously attacked women who were engaged in legal matters and politics. Cicero absolutely adored his daughter and he was shattered to pieces when she died in her teens after childbirth. One may see this as a contradiction. It is not. It was the gender reality of that time. In a large number of countries, women's only expected role is being a wife and mother. I would not call the men of these countries Neanthertal.
I tried to approach the seeking of knowledge from a female perspective. It is undebatable that everybody was suffering one way or another. However, being a mother greatly reduced one chance to learn and expand unless she was very wealthy.
It is not the fact that Henchman criticized me, it is HOW he did it. In an uncivilized manner. I love nothing more than a good intellectual debate. However, I shall not engage in name-calling and spitting.
I shall retreat and contemplate on this matter. I did not mean to create division.
 
Henchman 21 said:
First of all I would like to acknowledge that you have stated your opinion and that takes a bit of courage and as you may not particularly like what I have to say, you may use this opportunity to possibly change your disposition a little bit.

I am not a woman with kids but I am a man with a wife and child. I do not think it is very conducive to search for objective knowledge by trying to limit who may or may not respond. The fact that you particularly wanted this thread to be a discussion amongst mothers is restricting and has a bit of a stench of a “safe space”. The idea of a safe space has the idea of combating past injustices with present injustices. FWI this is a common idea within the ideologies of the social justice left. For example Ibram X Kendi in his book “How to be an Antiracist” states that past discrimination can only be fought with present racism and present discrimination can only be fought with future discrimination. I cannot recommend NOT reading that book highly enough 🤮. It’s important to be aware when we are transferring bad ideas into practice. It is equally wrong to do this with sexism as well.

I don’t think that Laura’s work is particularly important due to her gender. Her work is important because she did the work. She did this while raising a family with all the duties that entails. This is no different from anyone else. Any woman can get a library card and get as educated as one would like and this has been true for longer than any of us have been alive. To me it doesn’t matter if I’m inspired by Jordan Peterson or LKJ. What matters is that these people, and there are many others of both genders that have put the time in to get educated and to aim at the highest good.

You made the claim to not be a feminist and yet I noticed that you are quite mad at men, in fact so much so that you are resenting them for what may have happened to you in a past life which you have compounded on to your suffering in this life. Has it occurred to you that men have not exactly had a good time historically as well? Have you considered that you have probably also been a man in a past life...or many?

You gave a rather simplistic view of men when you mentioned them in your society. I think your characterization is based on selective thinking. There is a biological reality that men like young attractive women but surely there is more to us than that.

Finally, if you think that women are unjustly represented within the relevant intellectual and spiritual domains it may not be due to oppression. Maybe more women need to awaken a desire within them to do better rather than justifying their mediocre lives by blaming a boogeyMAN that might not really exist.

Yes, we could go about in circles criticizing the past but that isn’t as helpful as we want it to be and as far as I can tell it’s often not relevant.
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Dude, all of that was unnecessary and not relevant to the spirit of what Sybill said. I, for one, have no problem with a thread where mothers share their experience as Sybill asked. Your 'triggered' response to that request could, in as nonchalant way as you have done, be described as YOU seeking a 'safe space' from the 'unspeakable horror' of a thread where mothers share their experience which, in your 'parade of horribles' estimation, will lead inexorably to the complete undoing of this forum and all it stands for.
 
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