Gulags in China?

[Beau]

As far as opinions on China are concerned, I would say that this country's imperialist tendencies are self-evident. The current multifaceted drama is merely a natural reaction to those tendencies - expressed on the political, economic and interpersonal levels.

It's not self-evident to me, I don't see China going around acting like the Americans, but I'm definitely willing to change that if the data shows otherwise. They may have been imperialistic in the past, but the current Xi regime seems to be very isolationist although they are getting better working with others like Russia, probably courtesy of Putin's diplomatic efforts to woo Xi out of Beijing. The issue with Hong Kong is mostly Western-led destabilization like the Uyghurs in the north, the South China Sea issue exists because of American imperialism, and they've stayed out of the Middle East while making economic deals with countries that actually help those countries instead of turning them into resource-depleted vassal states for the Empire.

Say what you will about the internal, domestic issues in China. They are an effective balancer and deterrent to destructive imperialism.

The most worrisome development is the increasing totalitarian slant - particularly, technological totalitarianism. It is not only worrisome for the Chinese population but also for the world at large, because it will likely become infectious and overt. No longer in the domain of conspiracy theories but a domain of an accepted fact.

Wait, when did I miss this? Please expand on that because I definitely don't view China as a totalitarian state. Its social policies are definitely Big Brother-like, but so is every 1st world country's policies.

 

[Chu]

Adding to what Beau just asked:

Here is a quote from The Anatomy of Violence by A. Raine.

I think it is an interesting data point in this context.

There is no question that we all must be extraordinarily cautious in interpreting any genetic differences between ethnic groups, especially with respect to crime and violence.

At the same time, the evolutionary argument put forward is not entirely implausible. Counterpoint: While the base rate of the low-MAOA gene is about 34 percent in Caucasian males and 56 percent in the Maori, it is 77 percent in Chinese males. Yet the homicide rate in China, at about 2.1 per 100,000, is less than that of the United States—the Chinese are not exactly known for their fearless, warrior-like tendencies.

We’ll return to the ethical issues on the biology of violence, but for now let’s turn away from the debate on genes and violence in the Maori and back to a more established body of evidence that does not rest on ethnic-group differences.

Importantly, let’s consider that the type of aggression we are talking about may make a difference. The MAOA warrior gene may well be especially important in predisposing people to hot-blooded, emotional, and impulsive forms of aggression—rather than cold-blooded, regulated aggression. Han Brunner documented that the men in his Dutch kindred study tended to display more impulsive forms of aggression that often occurred in response to anger, fear, or frustration.

Consistent with this interpretation was research done in Los Angeles that found that UCLA students with the low-MAOA gene not only had more aggressive personalities, but showed greater interpersonal hypersensitivity—their feelings were more easily hurt. They also showed a greater brain response to being socially excluded, suggesting that they were indeed more easily upset by personal slights. Those with the warrior gene are more hypersensitive to criticism, which in turn results in increased impulsive aggression.

Australians with the warrior gene not only exhibit higher levels of antisocial personality, but also show an abnormal brain response to processing emotional stimuli.

No, I’m not going to say it’s all due to Australians’ being the offspring of 160,000 convicts shipped out from England in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. I believe instead that this indicates that the low-MAOA gene has an across-the-board linkage with crime. By and large it cuts across cultures.

Notice that Raine doesn't always make a clear distinction between the presence and the EXPRESSION of a gene. Also, you didn't highlight some things, but I did, in red, above. That would suggest (and I think that quite a big chunk of history proves it), that the gene is not necessarily so active in the Chinese. Lastly, I don't remember the rest of that part of Raine's book, but I don't know how he reached the conclusion that people who are hypersensitive to criticism manifest an increased impulsive aggression. Just the Maori, or is it a generalization? A lot of hypersensitive people aren't aggressive. So, either it's a hasty conclusion, or something is missing in order for this to be understood in context, yes? Based on the rest of your post, it seems to me that you aren't taking these things into account, and instead you took the quote as "proof" to validate your take on the matter.

 

[Woodsman]

Adding to what Beau just asked:

Notice that Raine doesn't always make a clear distinction between the presence and the EXPRESSION of a gene. Also, you didn't highlight some things, but I did, in red, above. That would suggest (and I think that quite a big chunk of history proves it), that the gene is not necessarily so active in the Chinese. Lastly, I don't remember the rest of that part of Raine's book, but I don't know how he reached the conclusion that people who are hypersensitive to criticism manifest an increased impulsive aggression. Just the Maori, or is it a generalization? A lot of hypersensitive people aren't aggressive. So, either it's a hasty conclusion, or something is missing in order for this to be understood in context, yes? Based on the rest of your post, it seems to me that you aren't taking these things into account, and instead you took the quote as "proof" to validate your take on the matter.

You were explaining it earlier;

Only after you got to know people, and they learned to trust you, would you learn that they in fact DID hold beliefs in a spiritual strata. -Versus loudmouth Westerners, (French and German notwithstanding), who can’t wait to be asked about their personal belief systems.

This degree of caution indicates, I would say, a higher sensitivity to criticism and fear of social punishment. Does this have a genetic component or is it just a product of cultural momentum? Who knows?

But regardless, nobody teases and pecking-orders quite like Asian school kids. I got that one up close and personal; When I was teased and bullied as a kid, the Chinese kids were by far the most cruel and effective in hurting me. The other kids could be mean, but would also tend to forget and move on to different subjects after a while.

All of which strikes me upon reflection as possibly being a causative factor in my modern reactions. Maybe my childhood experiences have left some programming behind? -I deep down believe that Chinese populations are wired for negative authoritarianism. I find myself totally unsurprised by the fact that a Chinese crowd has trouble forming a civil line-up at an airport or movie concession stand when left to its own devices.

Thus, I tend to stay alert to Chinese groupthink. One on one, no problem! Sensitive people who don't trust anyone but immediate tribe members are able to be compassionate and warm, loving and valued friends, but when threatened by mob pressures, are able to very quickly organize on both a local and national level to create either gangs, prison camps or impossibly huge infrastructure projects at the drop of a hat. If people aren't tribe, then let them freeze to death! Life is cheap in China, (at least in large population centers. No handrails for you!)

Cixin Liu’s “Three Body Problem” and his super-popular movie, “The Wandering Earth" offered insight into this capability; Liu is a genius but also human with his own blind spots; he writes like a fish not noticing the water he swims in, whereas to the Western reader, the water itself is just as astonishing as the characters and the various plot devices in his narratives.

-The assumed reality China lives in (in his stories) includes one where populations, when called upon, are capable of dropping everything to build 10,000 underground cities all across the planet, each servicing a huge fusion rocket engine the size of a mountain. -And endeavoring to fly Planet Earth to a different solar system (where Sol isn’t going to explode in 100 years.) -Because mega-projects are just a way of life. -Even ones which, by necessity require the sacrificing of half the human population. Not everybody could fit underground, you see, to avoid the ravages of the Earth freezing after leaving the warm inner orbit, so a lottery was held to see who got to live. -All mentioned as an afterthought. The characters had already moved on from this little phase. The story wasn’t about that. That was just an obvious background assumption. “Build 10,000 city-sized rocket engines to move the Earth and let half the population die off? Well, duh. Obviously.”

China LOVED that movie. It made a ton of money! (And most here have never even heard of it, I bet.) I found it unbearable. All the characters were crazy and/or selfish, their emotional range expressed was entirely alien. Liu’s books are much better and much more humane; but even if that humanity was lost in translation to screen, the basic precepts are still astonishing. And those basic premises only work if you happen to be Chinese and assume the rest of the world would be willing to play along with your crazy mega-project and mass-human sacrifice ideas.

While Westerners who believe in the Climate Change myth may wave placards and stop traffic and act like idiots, China strikes me as perfectly capable of actually working as a single (billion-unit) organism to enact their stupid plans. To drop everything to build their own cages and kill off everybody who doens’t fit into them.

Maybe Liu isn't correct; his books, after all, are endorsed by the government, or at least went uncensored and state media organs promoted his work. Is it still propaganda if it's also wildly popular? What does that say? I don't know. But if you’re looking to be a livestock manager, then what a great genetic and/or cultural trait to have baked into your chosen investment species! A low MAOA gene? If it performs as promised (by the show room sales person), then sure. The long-pig rancher ignores such opportunities at his own risk.

 

[adam7117]

Hi Beau,

Thank you for the response. I understand your points just disagree with several of them. This could be a misunderstanding on my behalf or an expression of prejudice so happy to learn.

Not sure I can unpack it all given I am currently on the road, with very limited time bandwidth. Nevertheless, briefly:

(...) and they've stayed out of the Middle East (...)

Are you sure this is the case? Take a look at the following search results - there appears to be plenty of evidence to the contrary. I suppose, one can always argue about the reliability of these sources. But do you really think that all of this is pure Western propaganda?

Google Search

Note the financial news sources listed in the results above (e.g., FT). It is a noteworthy reaction to the perceived threat to the established investments.

(...) while making economic deals with countries that actually help those countries instead of turning them into resource-depleted vassal states for the Empire.

I certainly hope you did not mean Africa. Because the African mining investments made by China are the prime example of exploitation. These typical "investments" consist of unfair leasing arrangements, importation of labour force and raw materials (even food items) - leading to depletion of natural resources without any benefit to the local communities.

It is true.

Wait, when did I miss this? Please expand on that because I definitely don't view China as a totalitarian state. Its social policies are definitely Big Brother-like, but so is every 1st world country's policies.

There are much smarter people here who can unpack such things. I am not a political scientist and certainly not read well enough to argue the finer details.

Here is a Wikipedia definition - with all due respect, China seems to tick a majority of the boxes. It could just be an inclination towards totalitarianism but it is definitely there. And the use of technology is aiding this tendency, making other countries nervous.

Totalitarianism - Wikipedia

wikipedia.org

Very interesting thread!

 

[Niall]

I deep down believe that Chinese populations are wired for negative authoritarianism.

So, you were bullied by Chinese-American kids, and that may be instrumental in why you fundamentally dislike or distrust China?

That's interesting and I don't want to discount the effect those experiences had on your formation, but I'm sure you can appreciate that that comes across as a subjective basis on which to make generalizations about China and Chinese people.

In recent years, as China's economic, political and cultural influence increases, I've noticed that sinophobia is quite common in Westerners. It can be expressed in strong categorical terms, as Woodsman has done here, but it's generally low-key 'China-wariness'. I've found it's especially pronounced in those of Anglo-Saxon stock or cultures.

I thought it was ideological at first, that they had 'fallen for the propaganda', but given that they can see through propaganda in some (and often many) other contexts, I'm starting to think it's more 'structural' in nature. They give a variety of reasons why they don't like China, and when challenged with counter-factual evidence, they switch from one reason to another. It strikes me that they start from the assumption that 'the unknown other' is 'bad', then work outwards from there.

I don't understand why they don't challenge this core belief, though I respect that it is strong and prevalent. Maybe it's literally, or at least effectively, biologically hardwired, as we see in studies showing instinctive racial/ethnic bias towards like-kind. There certainly isn't a recent history of eastern aggressors threatening the West - you'd have to go back to the 13th century Mongol empire for just a brief episode of that - but there is nevertheless a powerful, recurring fear of the 'Yellow Peril' or 'Asiatic Horde', as it was called in the 19th century when, far from threatening to impose anything on anyone else, China was being regularly aggressed by Western countries.

 

[seek10]

Having looked at the Western media coverage of Eastern countries, here are some observations.

- West doesn't give coverage to the East unless there is an agenda. Until late 2014, Western media political coverage of China is not that much. Coverage of India tend to be 0, but it changed in 2014, but was always against Modi.

- Eastern countries tend to be of Diverse in nature ( though it is changing as i read Albion seed and American Nations). Some how, they tried to live along for thousands of years irrespective of occupations by outsiders and internal conflicts. Web and flow of events over the time, hierarchies change things and some how they have managed to survive with their identities. But, when Western agenda's get involved things tend to go very bad, Some examples:

Iraqi situation after 2002 Invasion: Suddenly the diverse set of people starting warring with each other. There are reports of Blackwater mercenaries deliberately killing innocent and blame it on sectarian violence and using their puppets in both ends to prop up this narration. The same story comes up in Syria ( Kurds, Arabs, Alawites, Sunni, Shia etc.)​

​

China: The impression I got from Chinese history is , Chinese do think Their rulers or emperors are like God, if they don't take care of people, it is punished by the Universe. I have some friends who visited China who do say, they have cameras all over the place which track every body from the time they land to depart. Does it mean, they are losing sleep over it ? They went for a business, took care of it and left. I haven't heard of abuse of that, people blackmailing for money or any thing like that, which can happen in India so easily without the camera's etc. Heck, the biggest problem in India is a mental conflict - One can't do even a small thing without a bribe, but if you give bribe and get caught, you are the culprit.​

​

India: Story is more or less same when East India Company used the natural rivalries to its advantage to gobble up both sides. That's why When West talk about "Morality", People in the east, doesn't believe in it. In India( I am sure China too), there is strong feeling of "Unite" to not to give advantage to outsiders ( one example -Kashmir). The actions of the conflicting parties never tends to simple ( one identity vs another) or naive or single action . The "Unite" takes many forms due to varied local conditions. This opens a can of worms of "How much is too much". Generally, average people don't care "Who is ruling" with what "color" or "ism" as long as their basic needs are met and they go along doing what they are doing. ​

• In India, democracy is not seen as sacrosanct as the West see it. People endlessly argued about every thing, probably that reduced the need of psychologists, it did rarely helped to improve the democracy or control Corruption. I understand the Cold War background that spied on every body and gulags is responsible for the Northern hemisphere's aversion to "Control".
• There were no strict control of who is doing what, so corruption became so widespread at all levels, people lost faith in the democracy it self. When Modi tries to bring the order with financial transaction transparency and control corruption, Indians doesn't see it as a bad thing, while in the West, where these controls are there for long and were abused, people sees it as a totalitarian. When the abuse of "Control" happens, natural rebellion takes its own course in to split the nations, which often take the form of "Identity".

Projections based on Moral taste buds: In the West, there are certain words that trigger overwhelming feelings that overriding all else - Nazi, Hitler, concentration camps, genocide, totalitarian, democracy, communism, brain washing, Free speech . It makes sense given the background of cold war rhetoric and Post WW II order. But, projecting one's individual backgrounds on to rest of the World is problematic to say the least.

On this planet, Every body has their own problems to be solved. Outside interference in the name of morality (either in the name of Morality) hasn't worked much.

Reading the Albion seed and American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America is fascinating in this sense. The mindsets of founding members varied so widely, the meaning of words like "Liberty" and "individual freedom" completely different. Interestingly, these are coming out now in the West.

​

 

[seek10]

I think, The Video Espirit posted in thread Documentary: Coming War on China the post is relevant to this discussion. This is a 2016 John pilger video briefly goes into the history of US, China interactions for centuries and their operational modes.

US used Chinese for the rail construction and during the gold rush, but didn't give any credit or compensation. When Mao wants to have economic relationship with USA, US didn't even reply to the calls. In Contract, Nehru didn't want to have any serious relationship with British at all.

The video has mainly 4 parts- Nuclear experiments in Bikini islands and using the native population as experimental animals , Chinese discussion ( Min 40 to 67 min), Later portion is about US military bases that are at the China's door steps - in Okinawa, Japan and Jeje island in South Korea and local's struggle to reduce their expansion or attempts to get rid of them.

There are some very good quotes from the video.

• In US, parties can change, Policies doesn't change. In China, Policies change, but the party is same.
• China is market economy, but not capitalist country. In US, billionaires control the politicians, but In China, there is nothing Billionaires can do to control the communist politicians. Capital doesn't rise above the political authority, which is the opposite of US. That is why America is Capitalist country, not China.
• People are quite happy with communist party. 500 to 600 million people are lifted above the poverty. Fear of "Yellow Peril" never left West due to economic competition.
• If China had expansionist ambitions in their DNA, they wouldn't have built a wall. China don't have expansionism in their DNA.
• China's objectives are modest compared to their Weight and capacity. They are not trying to run the world. They don't want US to dominate Asia Pacific region so that they can have their rightful place.

Deng Xiaoping close aid had some interesting take

• Most of the Chinese leaders ( Mao, Deng Xiaoping and Xi ) has l "Very Very long term Vision" .
• BBC and others stuck in stereo typing of Evil dictators, they are missing out a lot of things happening here.
• Tienanmen Square massacre : At that time there are 2 factions - Student and opposition leader, Communist party. They differed on which is first - Political reform or economic reform. Gorbachev liking Students wants like Political reforms first, but the communist party wants economic reforms first. It is this conflict that contributed for standoff. Looking back, We know the results of both the paths. Luckily, Putin brought the life of Russia back.

Protests do happen in China: Often regional level, based on economic reasons. But these never trickle down to Western politics.

 

[seek10]

While looking about atrocities during Chinese communist party , I came across these PBS video's called "China: The century of revolution" made in 2007. I think they are little long (2 hrs each), but gives good analysis of sequence of events in the china's history. The videos are well made with context, their pain points, leader's vision, solutions they tried to implement (some went very wrong for sure) and most of them made China super power of to day without war. One thing is, they are constantly learning and improving (beyond general democracies can allow), while West's opinion (stereotype) of them stuck with the situations of 70's. they may not have multiple parties, but they have other means to express opinions of life, situation and ability to express dissent w.r.t economy and life.

I think it is is worth watching it, if one wants to have informed opinion instead of basing it on some bad stuff happened so long ago and extrapolating it to all over the events happening now.


Video 1: A Century of Revolution 1 China In Revolution 1911 1949

This video goes into Political situation from 1911 when the previous empire died leaving ton of pieces with their own warlords and others. Then the raise of nationalist party and communist party, though Nationalist party ruled for most of the time and became weak, impotent and corrupt that allowed the rise of communist party and Mao.

Video 2: China A Century of Revolution 1949 - 1976

Mao's communist won over the existing extremely unpopular National Party which is corrupt and incompetent that is ruling and fragments of the nation. They created party structure top to the bottom at the village level. They started reforms equality to woman, land reforms that took in the form of mob taking law into their hand under communist party control and distribute among them selves etc.

Initially, it started well for farmers who suffered for centuries, good harvest, they moved it to cooperative farming which gave more income farming, then they moved the bar communal farming where farmer doesn't own any thing. In their zeal to the industrialize nation ( beat britain GDP in 15 years), the enthusiastic party structures ( leaders, hierarchy and even farmers) ventured into path under the banner of "Great Leap Forward". It was a disaster that took 30 million people.

But the amazing part is, Mao took back seat and allowed his men to fix it, which they rebooted the agriculture with in a year or two. By the time, Mao came back from 3 year rest, he found himself in politically weak state. So In order keep his self importance to his demi-God level, he uses his the cash he has ( Young People's loyalty) to stir up what he called "Cultural revolution" which is another disaster (destroying every thing old- spearheaded by his wife). In 70's Mao is already physically weak and let his men run the show until his death and opened China for the World, in a limited extent.

Here is wiki page on Mao


Video 3: China: A Century of Revolution 1976-1994 (Part 3)

This is decades after Mao's death and their strive for industrialization with fous on economics ( Far more capitalist than Marxist) by short iron man called Deng Xiaoping. Events behind the Tienanmen square episode etc. Deng's seems to be of the opinion that if there is strong government China will disintegrate and economic progress can't be achieved. It does makes sense given the size of the country and situation faced before 1949.

 

[seek10]

Video 3: China: A Century of Revolution 1976-1994 (Part 3)

This is decades after Mao's death and their strive for industrialization with fous on economics ( Far more capitalist than Marxist) by short iron man called Deng Xiaoping. Events behind the Tienanmen square episode etc. Deng's seems to be of the opinion that if there is no strong government, China will disintegrate and economic progress can't be achieved. It does makes sense given the size of the country and situation faced before 1949.

small corrections to the text in color

 

[Joe]

'Allow no escapes': leak exposes reality of China's vast prison camp network

Documents confirm operational details of largest mass incarceration of an ethnic-religious minority since second world war

www.theguardian.com

The internal workings of a vast chain of Chinese internment camps used to detain at least a million people from the nation’s Muslim minorities are laid out in leaked Communist Party documents published on Sunday.

The China Cables, a cache of classified government papers, appear to provide the first official glimpse into the structure, daily life and ideological framework behind centres in north-western Xinjiang region that have provoked international condemnation.

Obtained by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) and shared with the Guardian, the BBC and 15 other media partners, the documents have been independently assessed by experts who have concluded they are authentic. China said they had been “fabricated”.

The document states:

• Camps must adhere to a strict system of total physical and mental control, with multiple layers of locks on dormitories, corridors, floors and buildings. Fences should be put around each building, and walls around the compound. A dedicated police station must be at the front gate, all monitored by security guards in watchtowers.

• Inmates could be held indefinitely – but must serve at least a year in the camps before they can even be considered for “completion”, or release.

• The camps are to be run on a points system. Inmates earn credits for “ideological transformation”, “compliance with discipline” and “study and training”.

• Even after completing their “education transformation” inmates are not allowed to go free. They move into another tier of camps, where they face a further three- to six-months’ internment for “labour skills training”.

• Weekly phone calls and a monthly video call with relatives are their only contact with the outside world, and they can be suspended as punishment.

• “Preventing escape” is a top priority. The order demands round-the-clock video surveillance “with no blind spots” to monitor every moment of an inmates’ day. Control of every aspect of their lives is so comprehensive that they have to be assigned a specific place not only in dormitories and classrooms, but even in the lunchtime queue.

The Brits did the same thing in the 1920s and then 70s, and 80s in Northern Ireland (my grandfather among the internees), but there was little if any "international outcry".

 

[adam7117]

'Allow no escapes': leak exposes reality of China's vast prison camp network

Documents confirm operational details of largest mass incarceration of an ethnic-religious minority since second world war

www.theguardian.com

The Brits did the same thing in the 1920s and then 70s, and 80s in Northern Ireland (my grandfather among the internees), but there was little if any "international outcry".

Sigh. Yeah, I am sorry to hear that, Joe. And now the history seems to be repeating itself. It does not bode well for anyone.

Now this...

'Are we now a totalitarian state?': case of Canberra's mystery prisoner alarms judge

Former NSW supreme court judge flags concerns as lawyers call for overhaul of secrecy laws

www.theguardian.com

A former New South Wales supreme court judge says the secret prosecution of a mystery Canberra inmate appears to be a “complete abandonment of open justice” as Australia’s peak lawyers’ body renews calls for a full review of secrecy laws.

Anthony Whealy, a judge with lengthy experience in NSW’s highest courts, has warned that the secret prosecution and imprisonment of a man in the Australian Capital Territory poses serious questions about the future of the justice system.

“At first blush, this looks like the complete abandonment of open justice,” Whealy told Guardian Australia. “Are we now a totalitarian state where people are prosecuted, convicted and shunted off to prison without they or the public having any notion as to what has happened?”

Proceedings against the Canberra man, understood to be a former military intelligence officer, were hidden from the public. He was sentenced to imprisonment and began serving time in the Alexander Maconochie Centre at some point in 2018, before being released this year. The nature of the charges has been kept secret, as has his name, identity, and background.

(...)

 

[Siberia]

• Weekly phone calls and a monthly video call with relatives are their only contact with the outside world, and they can be suspended as punishment.

So, basically China treats extremist prisoners better than the UK treats journalists in Belmarsh?

Meanwhile here is today's news from the U.S. on the same subject for comparison:

People incarcerated in West Virginia prisons will soon be charged $3 an hour to read books and $15 an hour for video visitation with their families.

Prisoners in West Virginia are paid between 4 and 58 cents an hour for their labor.

Source: West Virginia Inmates Will Be Charged by the Minute to Read E-Books on Tablets

 

[Ant22]

Personally, I tend to take reports of all those Chinese crimes with a huge bucket of salt. The whole anti-Chinese smear campaign involving reports of gulags in China or accusations of Chinese Big Brother-style surveillance strikes me as yet another example of elite psychopaths accusing others of what they themselves are doing.

Working conditions in China are bad? I'd suggest some research into work-related, stress, depression and illness in the West. Those reasons for long-term sick leave have now overtaken injury and cancer in the UK. I can imagine there are bad employers in China but the Chinese do not have the monopoly on workforce exploitation. Take Amazon's treatment of their employees for example.

Worried about gulags for Muslims in China? What about Guantanamo? Or US Army's treatment of civilians in countries they bombed back to the stone age? Many were Muslim-majority countries and yet the West is outraged by how the Chinese (allegedly) treat Muslims?

Chinese surveillance is bad? I wonder what exactly inspired memes like the one below? The fact that China does it explicitly and the West hides behind GDPR and high tech gadgets doesn't make those behaviours much different IMO.

Not to mention that information about Chinese gulags largely comes from mainstream media. CNN, Financial Times, NY Times, Mirror, Washington Post. Since when do those sources speak 'nothing but the truth'?

 

[Debra]

@Ant22 , the stories come out every few years about China and the "re-education" camps.
Religious Freedoms are being attacked.
China is EVIL.....boycott Chinese merch...it's made by the unhappy hands of religious prisoners...

This article was on my newsfeed this morning from a Jordan Peterson support group:

I found an SOS note from China in a box of decorations—and it changed how I live - Macleans.ca

Opinion: In Oregon, among Halloween decorations, Julie Keith found a cry for help from a Chinese labour camp. Years later, it's changed how she shops and parents

www.macleans.ca

It's written in a homey, Mom next door, blog kinda way.
A quick sum up:
She saved thousands of people by turning in the note, met the man who wrote it, and is advocating not buying cheap stuff from CHINA!!

Quote from the article:
It was a grey Sunday afternoon in 2011, at my home in Oregon.
So discounted were these accessories [...]
[...]on sale at Kmart the year before, and so they were waiting in storage.

[...] a folded-up piece of paper fell on the floor.

[...] Neat handwriting in English and Chinese filled the lined, white note paper;

[...]“…If you occasionally buy this product, please kindly resend this letter to the World Human Right Organization,” it read, detailing punishments and abuses of people in a place called Masanjia. “Thousands people here who are under the persecution of the Chinese Communist Party Government will thank and remember you forever.”

human rights defenders and spiritual believers such as Buddhists and Christians who won’t fall in line with the Chinese Communist Party’s way of thought are sent to these places for “re-education,” a euphemism for brutal torture, sexual abuse and brainwashing until they sign a contract promising they would change their beliefs.
[...]detained for two-and-a-half years for practicing Falun Gong, a meditation practice outlawed by the Chinese government.

"Today, the thrill I had once gotten from the discounted decorations allowing me to buy more cheap gifts for my daughter couldn’t feel more dissonant—I now know the human cost of that feeling.


So, that is the front, or foundation for all of us to stop LOOKING at China.

Except... maybe the Genetics of the Uyghurs is IMPORTANT to the Cosmos for something....

Genetics
Variations among Uyghur people

Uyghurs in Khotan, Xinjiang, China

Uyghur girl in Turpan, Xinjiang, China

Group of Uyghur boys in Hotan, Xinjiang, China

The Uyghurs are a Eurasian population with Eastern and Western-Eurasian anthropometric and genetic traits. Thus, Uyghurs are one of the many populations of Central Eurasia considered to be genetically related to "Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid" populations.

One study by Xu et al. (2008), using samples from Hetian (Hotan) only, found Uyghurs have about 60% European or South-West Asian ancestry and about 40% East Asian or Siberian ancestry.[175] Further study by the same team showed slightly greater European/West Asian component (52%) in the Uyghur population in southern Xinjiang, but only 47% in the northern Uyghur population.[176] A different study by Li et al. (2009) used a larger sample of individuals from a wider area, and found a higher East Asian component with about 70% with much more similarity to "Western East" Eurasians than East Asian populations, while European/West Asian component was about 30%.[177]

A study (2013) about the autosomal DNA shows that average Uyghurs are closest to other Turkic people in Central Asia and China. The analysis of the diversity of cytochrome B further suggests Uyghurs are closer to Chinese and Siberian populations than to various "Caucasoid" groups in West Asia or Europe.[178]


A study on mitochondrial DNA (2013) (therefore the matrilineal genetic contribution) found the frequency of western Eurasian-specific haplogroup in Uyghurs to be 42.6%, and East Asian haplogroup to be 57.4%.[179]

A study on paternal DNA (2016) shows West Eurasian haplogroups in Uyghurs make up around 65% to 70%, and East Asian haplogroups around 30% to 35%.[180]
[...]
The study identifies four major ancestral components that may have arisen from two earlier admixed groups: one from the West with European (25–37%) and South Asian ancestries (12–20%); another from the East with Siberian (15–17%) and East Asian ancestries (29–47%). It identifies an ancient wave of settlers that arrived around 3,750 years ago, dating that corresponds with the Tarim mummies of 4,000–2,000 years ago of a people with European features, and a more recent wave that occurred around 750 years ago. The analysis suggests the Uyghurs are most closely related to Central Asian populations such as the Hazaras of Afghanistan and the Uzbeks, followed by the East Asian and West Eurasian populations. While the Uyghur populations showed significant diversity, the differences between them are smaller than those between Uyghurs and non-Uyghurs.[181]

The physical features of many Uyghurs, characterized by a mixture of European and East Asian characteristics, are considered "exotic" in China; in theatre the use of Uighur actors has become common because they can play the roles of foreign characters while at the same time speaking flawless Mandarin.[182]

Uyghurs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Joe]

I have no problem accepting that China may have incarcerated large numbers of Muslims in North Western China, but I also accept that the primary reason this may have happened is that large numbers of those Muslims were at some stage in the process of being radicalized and weaponized by Western powers for use against China. The Chinese are not idiots and have witnessed how the US and its allies "stir up" local populations, fund, arm and train them for imperial motives, only a fool would allow political correctness or Western media propaganda to force them sit back as a "color revolution" was fomented inside their territory.