Gulags in China?

[Debra]

Personally, I tend to take reports of all those Chinese crimes with a huge bucket of salt. The whole anti-Chinese smear campaign involving reports of gulags in China or accusations of Chinese Big Brother-style surveillance strikes me as yet another example of elite psychopaths accusing others of what they themselves are doing.
Worried about gulags for Muslims in China?

human rights defenders and spiritual believers such as Buddhists and Christians who won’t fall in line with the Chinese Communist Party’s way of thought are sent to these places for “re-education,” a euphemism for brutal torture, sexual abuse and brainwashing until they sign a contract promising they would change their beliefs.
[...]detained for two-and-a-half years for practicing Falun Gong, a meditation practice outlawed by the Chinese government.
[...]
The Uyghurs are a Eurasian population with Eastern and Western-Eurasian anthropometric and genetic traits. Thus, Uyghurs are one of the many populations of Central Eurasia considered to be genetically related to "Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid" populations.

I have no problem accepting that China may have incarcerated large numbers of Muslims in North Western China, but I also accept that the primary reason this may have happened is that large numbers of those Muslims were at some stage in the process of being radicalized and weaponized by Western powers for use against China. The Chinese are not idiots and have witnessed how the US and its allies "stir up" local populations, fund, arm and train them for imperial motives, only a fool would allow political correctness or Western media propaganda to force them sit back as a "color revolution" was fomented inside their territory.

I agree totally with these observations made regarding Muslim radicalisation.
The facts are being obscured by the Western media and politicians.
This website has all kinds of articles and links that are very biased and misleading:

Page not found – UCS

Uyghur Canadian Solidarity

www.uyghurcanadian.ca

My reaction an evening ago, to a newscast regarding the "Re-education" Centers in China, was along the lines of "The Chinese have got the right idea, getting rid of these twisted religious"Belief" programs and violent systems!".
My Husband brought up the Jews, WWII, and the discussion was on....

He is a first gen Canadian. His family immigrated from Holland.
After surviving the occupation.
It was an interesting discussion. I still won.

It's the Uyghurs, that got my attention.

The population of Uyghurs is over 10 million, and they are a rather isolated population.
The high estimate of Muslim Uyghurs is 1 million, from Kashgar/Kashi, an isolated area in the far north west.

Tarim mummies - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Mair claims that "the earliest mummies in the Tarim Basin were exclusively Caucasoid, or Europoid" with east Asian migrants arriving in the eastern portions of the Tarim Basin around 3,000 years ago while the Uyghur peoples arrived around the year 842. In trying to trace the origins of these populations, Victor Mair's team suggested that they may have arrived in the region by way of the Pamir Mountains about 5,000 years ago.

Mair has claimed that:

The new finds are also forcing a reexamination of old Chinese books that describe historical or legendary figures of great height, with deep-set blue or green eyes, long noses, full beards, and red or blond hair. Scholars have traditionally scoffed at these accounts, but it now seems that they may be accurate.[17]"

Could they, the Uyghur people, still be a strong, undiluted genetic connection to Kantekkians?

Sorry if it looked like I was sounding like a Libtard!!

 

[Glenn]

I remember Japanese that were sent off to camps locally during WWII. I think this was done throughout the US and Canada. There was the fear that they could be infiltrated and could engage in sabotage during the war. This was felt necessary at the time, but with the lens of political correctness, this has been painted as a terrible racist thing. It seems the more time passes, the worse this situation is portrayed.

Since we know that when a certain population is 'weaponized' for certain goals, they can be sacrificed in large numbers. So in a sense, the interment camps in China could be seen as a humanitarian strategy, keeping them out of harms way. It is certainly not politcally correct, and I am sure it angers those that have plans to destabilize China, but it seems to be the most effective strategy right now, given the circumstances.

 

[Ant22]

I have no problem accepting that China may have incarcerated large numbers of Muslims in North Western China, but I also accept that the primary reason this may have happened is that large numbers of those Muslims were at some stage in the process of being radicalized and weaponized by Western powers for use against China. The Chinese are not idiots and have witnessed how the US and its allies "stir up" local populations, fund, arm and train them for imperial motives, only a fool would allow political correctness or Western media propaganda to force them sit back as a "color revolution" was fomented inside their territory.

It's hard to disagree Joe.

In wise words of Putin: "We shouldn’t criticise what they do in China. They have 1.5 billion people. 1.5 billion! You go ahead and try to control 1.5 billion people."

I agree that there's likely some truth to the reports that started this thread, although choosing the word "gulag" to describe those facilities was probably an intentional pressing of an emotional button due to its negative connotations. And based on what Beau wrote in in his earlier post, Uyghurs are not exactly innocent and oppressed victims that have never said 'boo' to a goose.

But I am struggling to believe those are some evil torture and murder facilities of completely innocent Muslims the media presents them to be. Besides, who is the warmongering Western empire to comment on other countries' torture practices anyway? It's like Hitler lecturing others on diversity and inclusion.

I also think that the number of detainees may have been exaggerated to maximise the 'shock' effect. Like I'm going to blindly trust reports of media that exaggerate even such trivial matters as the size of crowds at politicians' events.

I noticed that most people who are vocal about China's 'gulags' on my social media are quite heavily 'left' leaning. The 'care/harm' foundation as the only moral 'tastebud' comes to mind. I wouldn't even try to explain to them that China may have decided to sacrifice the freedom of thousands (or even millions) to ensure security of billions because I'd most likely be shot down in flames. Some clever heads on the left seem to think that abolishing all jails is a good idea and I have seen such sentiments being expressed even before those said clever heads came up with it.

 

[hlat]

I remember Japanese that were sent off to camps locally during WWII. I think this was done throughout the US and Canada. There was the fear that they could be infiltrated and could engage in sabotage during the war. This was felt necessary at the time, but with the lens of political correctness, this has been painted as a terrible racist thing. It seems the more time passes, the worse this situation is portrayed.

Internment of Japanese during WWII was bullcrap at the time and not at all necessary at the time. But some people sure did love stealing the choice land that belonged to the interned Japanese. Some of the interned Japanese were so eager to prove their loyalty to US that they became one of the most decorated units in US military history by fighting in Europe.

 

[hlat]

Besides, who is the warmongering Western empire to comment on other countries' torture practices anyway?

It sure seems like they're all doing bad things, in the past and in the present. Dismal race to the bottom.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

And based on what Beau wrote in in his earlier post, Uyghurs are not exactly innocent and oppressed victims that have never said 'boo' to a goose.

I'd be careful about making any sweeping generalizations. There are up to 11 million Uighurs in Xinjiang. A comparison could be made to Chechnya. Russia had a "Chechen problem" in the 90s. Even after the war, though, there was a radicalization problem. But with the war in Syria and the rise of ISIS, the Caucasus Emirate joined their jihadi brothers there to fight Assad. Estimates are around 3000 Chechens went to fight. This had the positive effect that a large number of the jihadists in Chechnya left Russia to die in Syria. The same might be said for Xinjiang, where estimates are that up to 5000 Uighurs went to Syria. The Chinese forced "re-education" program may have been successful in stopping further attacks, but the emigration of a lot of the hardcore jihadists probably also had a significant effect.

I wouldn't even try to explain to them that China may have decided to sacrifice the freedom of thousands (or even millions) to ensure security of billions because I'd most likely be shot down in flames.

That may very well be the motivation, but I've gotta say, if I were one of the ones "sacrificed" by the government for the good of the many, I would probably be fairly resentful, especially if I knew I'd done nothing wrong.

NOTE: updated the population of Uighurs in Xinjiang - I had the number of Uighurs outside China!

 

[Glenn]

But some people sure did love stealing the choice land that belonged to the interned Japanese.

Yeah, that is a good point, and I had forgotten about that. So not a good comparison...

 

[Siberia]

Just thought it may be useful to have a closer look at some of the maps to illustrate how crucially important this region is from the geopolitical point of view, the key point being Urumqi city.

Here is the railway map of China:

As can be seen, the green branch is the only one that connects Western part of China with the rest of the country. So this is basically a 'lifeline' for the region.

Also, this branch is the only one that connects the entire China to Kazakhstan.

Plus, the railway goes through Urumqi, the closest megapolis to the border of Russia, Mongolia and Kazakhstan. It is also the only city in the entire Western half of China that has an international airport. This city is therefore a very important international trade hub.

Now let me also share the following map to get the bigger picture:

As can be seen, the railway that connects China with Europe goes through Urumqi. The map also shows, that this route is way shorter than the sea way. Also, it connects China and Europe almost directly, because it goes through Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus which are all members of the Customs Union. Now compare it to the sea route with many separate players.

So, when we hear about 'gulags' in Urumqi, I think it would be useful to keep in mind what is at the stake here and why this particular region is targeted.

 

[Joe]

Just thought it may be useful to have a closer look at some of the maps to illustrate how crucially important this region is from the geopolitical point of view, the key point being Urumqi city.

That's pretty much the reason for any gulags.

 

[seek10]

I also think that the number of detainees may have been exaggerated to maximise the 'shock' effect. Like I'm going to blindly trust reports of media that exaggerate even such trivial matters as the size of crowds at politicians' events.

That is the issue with sensational headlines . If you see evidence, it is just 5 or 10% , remaining filled with what they want to fill with. Other day I watched one video ( almost 60 minutes length), the only evidence they can prove is some sky images of camps and barbed wires and one some internal memo saying "not allow people to go out". That is believable. They filled the remaining narration with torture, gulags, body part sales to arabs etc. They will say China is very secretive of it, so it should be correct. But, Did they publish the good things that are going on and in public view? Not really. It's all agenda.

 

[seek10]

That may very well be the motivation, but I've gotta say, if I were one of the ones "sacrificed" by the government for the good of the many, I would probably be fairly resentful, especially if I knew I'd done nothing wrong.

I agree that it is not good for the sufferer. But the proportionality is the issue . If they say "1000 out of million are suffering", that is one thing. But, it is another thing to say, "1000 are suffering so all other million must also be suffering". Unfortunately, there is nothing to prove or disprove because of the secrecy. They say brainwashing under the lockup. But, what they are brainwashing, some how they are doing, doesn't come out to get a realistic picture.

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

Obtained by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) and shared with the Guardian, the BBC and 15 other media partners, the documents have been independently assessed by experts who have concluded they are authentic. China said they had been “fabricated”.
as quoted by Joe,

This INTERNATIONAL CONSORTIUM OF INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISTS. What a grandious title. And sharing their 'findings' with guess who. the Guardian and BBC no less.

When this wonderful CONSORTIUM starts talking about Yellow Vests, Assange, arms smuggling, Government sponsored child abductions etc etc then maybe, just maybe, they will be listened to and earn their ill-gotten pay.

 

[Joe]

That's pretty much the reason for any gulags.

Or more specifically:

150 people were attacked and 31 killed in a mass stabbing by Muslim Uyghur terrorists in Kunming rail station in 2014.

President Xi Jinping, the party chief, laid the groundwork for the crackdown in a series of speeches delivered in private to officials during and after a visit to Xinjiang in April 2014, just weeks after Uighur militants stabbed more than 150 people at a train station, killing 31. Mr. Xi called for an all-out “struggle against terrorism, infiltration and separatism” using the “organs of dictatorship,” and showing “absolutely no mercy.”

Now some might claim that one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist, and that I'm being a bit hypocritical here for supporting other groups that were also deemed terrorists. The difference is that I have never supported any group that went around randomly killing or stabbing large numbers of innocent civilians. That really marks the difference between a legitimate armed resistance group and terrorists, and generally speaking, terrorist groups have some form of large state backing, while resistance groups do not.

 

[Joe]

And here's a run down of the number and type of attacks these people have carried out:

In June 2012, six Uighurs reportedly tried to hijack a plane from Hotan to Urumqi before they were overpowered by passengers and crew.

There was bloodshed in April 2013 and in June that year, 27 people died in Shanshan county after police opened fire on what state media described as a mob armed with knives attacking local government buildings

At least 31 people were killed and more than 90 suffered injuries in May 2014 when two cars crashed through an Urumqi market and explosives were tossed into the crowd. China called it a "violent terrorist incident".

It followed a bomb and knife attack at Urumqi's south railway station in April, which killed three and injured 79 others.

In July, authorities said a knife-wielding gang attacked a police station and government offices in Yarkant, leaving 96 dead. The imam of China's largest mosque, Jume Tahir, was stabbed to death days later.

In September about 50 died in blasts in Luntai county outside police stations, a market and a shop. Details of both incidents are unclear and activists have contested some accounts of incidents in state media.

Some violence has also spilled out of Xinjiang. A March stabbing spree in Kunming in Yunnan province that killed 29 people was blamed on Xinjiang separatists, as was an October 2013 incident where a car ploughed into a crowd and burst into flames in Beijing's Tiananmen Square.

 

[Joe]

The US looks at China like this and thinks: 'how can we incite rebellion and separatism in any or all of those 'distinct' provinces'?' 'East Turkistan' is the area that the Uyghur jihadi group "Turkistan Islamic Party" wants as their 'independent country'.