Gulags in China?

I don't remember Covey talking about anyone sacrificing themselves for the good of the collective... Maybe I forgot, or did you mean that they are willing to MAKE sacrifices?

No, you're right, he didn't say it like that. He said:

Love is something you do: the sacrifices you make, the giving of self, like a mother bringing a newborn into the world. If you want to study love, study those who sacrifice for others, even for people who offend or do not love in return.

I was trying to place the idea of sacrifice - and where its 'center of gravity' should be - within his overall framework. What you wrote below is very close to what I was trying to sum up in that short sentence:

There is a big difference, IMO. The former can very often go wrong and be exploited, because of people's "weak substratum", programming, lack of critical thinking, etc. Many can "sacrifice themselves for the good of the collective", but they don't question the collective's principles, morals or aims! "Interdependence", however, involves a) getting past the point where one is only dependent (blindly following), b) getting past the point of being only independent (not needing anyone), to c) finally learn to be oneself, do one's best, while understanding that we need others, and can create something much better together. It is the sum of individuals. As such, not many good (interdependent) collectives would ask their individuals to "sacrifice themselves". They WOULD, however, expect sacrifices from everyone to keep the wheels turning, to make the whole work better, and to accomplish more. That's how I understand it, at least.

But I wasn't focusing on what the collective "expects" from the individual, but what comes from within the individual - what they expect of themselves, within the wider context of their community. A true sacrifice comes from within, IMO, simply because it is right and because your own values align with your communities. Self-sacrifice can come in many forms - I didn't mean just to imply going off and dying for one's group, or going willingly to the gulag. Sacrificing oneself can be choosing a career that will help your community, devoting your time and energy to others and not yourself, but it can also mean the "ultimate sacrifice" - such as going to war and potentially dying for your community. Even that can take many forms, like going to a negotiation with enemies, knowing you could encounter treachery. The main point just being that it's a personal choice that comes from within, out of love. It shouldn't imposed and dictated from the group.
 
This morning I watched a video on this, from the South African guy living in China I previously mentioned:
I agree with you 100% AI, except that I'm not sure about this South African guy. I haven't heard about this vlogger before, so I tried to search info about him online. It seems that he doesn't live in China anymore and moved to California, U.S.? And that's why his latest videos were filmed outside of China? And his YouTube videos are his only source of income now? If so, then he could be in a situation where criticizing China has now become his job? Not sure about it though, that's just what I gathered from the various online comments, so fwiw.

I've watched some of his old videos now, and they seem to be pretty genuine and balanced as compared to his recent ones, fwiw.
 
I agree with you 100% AI, except that I'm not sure about this South African guy. I haven't heard about this vlogger before, so I tried to search info about him online. It seems that he doesn't live in China anymore and moved to California, U.S.? And that's why his latest videos were filmed outside of China? And his YouTube videos are his only source of income now? If so, then he could be in a situation where criticizing China has now become his job? Not sure about it though, that's just what I gathered from the various online comments, so fwiw.

I've watched some of his old videos now, and they seem to be pretty genuine and balanced as compared to his recent ones, fwiw.

It can also depend on what he's like, or what he picks to show. Personally, I found Chinese people to be generally very helpful to each other, and to foreigners. Much more than I've ever seen in France! The exception were the "new rich people", who treated others horribly quite often. But we can hardly call that part of the Chinese mentality, when they are making money in a super capitalistic setting. So, I don't know, but...
 
I agree with you 100% AI, except that I'm not sure about this South African guy. I haven't heard about this vlogger before, so I tried to search info about him online. It seems that he doesn't live in China anymore and moved to California, U.S.? And that's why his latest videos were filmed outside of China? And his YouTube videos are his only source of income now? If so, then he could be in a situation where criticizing China has now become his job? Not sure about it though, that's just what I gathered from the various online comments, so fwiw.

I've watched some of his old videos now, and they seem to be pretty genuine and balanced as compared to his recent ones, fwiw.
I don't know for sure - I don't watch everything he does, so I don't know his full story. From what I do know, yes, he moved to California recently to start up a business with his fellow biker buddy. As for his source of income, I think it is primarily from his videos, but he also does documentaries, one of which is coming out soon, and he and his business partner are working on other projects that haven't been announced yet. So as for his new job being criticizing China, I dunno. Could be. I get the impression he's blowing off steam and some of the resentments that built up over the last couple years living in China. So he can be biased in that regard and it definitely comes across in some of his latest videos. I can usually see where he's coming from, but I certainly don't agree with all his opinions or 'takes' on what's going on there.

One thing to say in his favor is that from what I've seen of him, he's usually careful to point out that it's not all bad, and there's a reason he stayed in China for so long - because he did genuinely like it there, like the people, the culture, etc. Recent developments made it hard to live there as a foreigner, though, which contributed to him leaving. And while in his early videos he traveled all over the place, to tiny remote villages, and stuff like that, it seems like most of his criticisms are from big city life, the people there, and the encroachment of politics into his life, e.g., police visits and threats from the hardcore Chinese nationalists (e.g., several times they reported him to the police as a Western spy).
 
It can also depend on what he's like, or what he picks to show. Personally, I found Chinese people to be generally very helpful to each other, and to foreigners. Much more than I've ever seen in France! The exception were the "new rich people", who treated others horribly quite often. But we can hardly call that part of the Chinese mentality, when they are making money in a super capitalistic setting. So, I don't know, but...
Yeah, that makes sense. Pretty sure I remember this Winston guy commenting several times how helpful the people were to foreigners in particular - more so in the past than present, though. Apparently people have been on edge with the whole U.S. trade war and are understandably more wary of foreigners these days.

But since you mentioned France... ;) On that document I linked to, France is pretty far down on the "helping a stranger" index, too, ranked #122 - 37% (China is #135 - 31%). You can't completely trust poll rankings like that though. At best I think they can give a general picture. And it probably depends on which region the people are from, plus many other factors. China's a huge country, after all. Maybe things are better in the small towns and villages. Big cities tend to be more depersonalized everywhere, IMO.
 
America may be individualist, but per capita Americans are right up there in charitable giving, like Beau mentioned - China's near the bottom
Some may show "charity" just to look good, for example, or because it's expected. Others may want to, but don't dare because their society/group condemns it. Etc. The actions themselves (or lack thereof) aren't always proof of a more empathic nature.


I agree with Chu. Just about every famous person, actor, former politician, etc has some sort of charitable foundation. And many of them are set up to mask criminal greed or corruption, eg the Clinton foundation. Where most of the money is funneled to friends etc. or just taken for themselves. There is virtually no oversight over these foundations. These types of charities will skew the numbers of charitable giving IMO.

That is not to say there is not true charitable giving in countries like the US, but it must be recognized that there is a huge thing about looking good, in a PR sense, for many in charity , and philanthropy.
 
I watched this video. Here are some comments.

1. Ignoring the public abductions and other violations: I can understand the average Chinese apathy towards the stranger's suffering. Every body knows "Power Corrupts". Here power doesn't mean not communist party office alone. The convenient nexus happens to exist among party people, businessmen and criminals every where. After decades of "Industrialization first" mode of 80's, 90's , Xi statements tend to focus on "removing the corruption". Whether they can empower the people to talk ( that can easily turn against the govt. as it is happening in Hong Kong) is a question that is difficult to answer given the Chinese history of the last century( Previous Chinese empire collapse in 1910's, decades of warlord like fragmented situation, Nationalists incompetence and corruption in 30's and 40's , rise of Communist party( late 40's to late 70's ) when nation is solidified on the communist lines ( But Mao's blunders in cultural revolution) and Deng xiaoping and successive rulers 's focus on "Industrialization first", until Xi came along). They tend to be very creative to solve their social problems .

This type of thing used to happen( Even happens now too) in democratic India too. But, It depends on the circumstances. For example a murder happened in the public place or some rape, onlookers suspected some local goon or powerful person ( politician or law enforcement person or wealthy guys or mafia guy) involved, no body would touch to help. Because they don't have trust in the police system, they come under forces from both sides that can take the form of constant harassment , even harm their own family or themselves and running around the court system so on. Many movies are even made on those themes.

But, nothing of "power" is suspected, Mob can lynch the culprit by taking law into their hands. But Modi changed all that with his "Nationalism" as a means of awakening the bureaucracy first and using it as a example the people) in just 5 years. Sure, he benefits from "Nationalism", that is only part of the story. Many of this type of incidents are even categorized as the right wing hindu violence to rake up numbers of "Minority lynchings" when it is really a abductor got caught by the mob of onlookers.

Remember the gang rape of a woman in night bus in Delhi in 2012 and it took 2 weeks for police even to notice until the opposition in the parliament made a noise. Unfortunately, Some of these happen even now, but police arrest them much faster than in West. Here is one example happened this week - A Hyderabadi veteranian got stuck on highway due to flat tire on her bike, some truckers abducted, raped and burnt her. Once news came to police, they created 10 groups and nabbed the culprits within 3 days.

2. Not donating to the beggars: It is a conundrum one has to face when donating to the street children. There are many movies made where mafia like local crooks using children (often disabling them)and using them as beggars to collect the money at the end of the day. So the "misuse" is a common problem.

3. Comparing the currency: I don't think it is fair to compare the currencies in US $ to prove or disprove the charity of people. If they want to compare it, it is better to do it in "purchasing power parity"(PPP). "Fear Factor" contributes more to the behavior than the "availability".

4. Issues of Nations of Large population: Some body in the West recently did as survey of how many people an extrovert or introvert can keep in touch over the years. It maxed out at the 15 or 17. Probably that is human limitation.
  • People call police immediately in West, they have trust in police( even though it is deteriorating fast). The fear of "getting into trouble" or "their social score comes down" can be a major deterrent. But the same technology can used for the opposite as India did- If some body sees public urination or some municipality didn't clean part of the road properly, they can take the picture of it and instantly send the picture to their App. This kept the hierarchies on toes. It is like calling a number if one sees some body throwing litter from car and may get $200 fine.
  • At the beginning of Industrialization, focus tend to be on volume than quality. As the Industrialization progresses and properly sustained, focus shifts to "Quality".
I don't mean to discount the problems like this, only to put it in the context in the bigger geopolitical events. I am also saying "China or any other country is not perfect", but if one guy can create 30 minutes of video on this, it surely raises suspicion.
 
I agree with Chu. Just about every famous person, actor, former politician, etc has some sort of charitable foundation. And many of them are set up to mask criminal greed or corruption, eg the Clinton foundation. Where most of the money is funneled to friends etc. or just taken for themselves. There is virtually no oversight over these foundations. These types of charities will skew the numbers of charitable giving IMO.

That is not to say there is not true charitable giving in countries like the US, but it must be recognized that there is a huge thing about looking good, in a PR sense, for many in charity , and philanthropy.

For sure. Rich people donating lots accounts for a big chunk of the total dollars donated, but what I wanted to bring attention to is that most charity comes from regular people:

It is easy to think of philanthropy as something done by the very wealthy, or big foundations, or prosperous companies. Actually, of the $358 billion that Americans gave to charity in 2014, only 14 percent came from foundation grants, and just 5 percent from corporations. The rest—81 percent—came from individuals.

And among individual givers in the U.S., while the wealthy do their part (as you’ll see later in this essay), the vast predominance of offerings come from average citizens of moderate income. Six out of ten U.S. households donate to charity in a given year, and the typical household’s annual gifts add up to between two and three thousand dollars.

If you look at church-goers, for instance, giving to charity is ingrained in their psyches. It may be because it is expected of them, but I personally think that's a good model to set. Communities should help each other, IMO, and not just rely on the government to do it for them. If the result is a bunch of people conditioned to give to those less fortunate, that's a positive thing. Of course, there are a lot shady charities. So it helps to look around locally and find ones you can verify actually do good work.
 
It can also depend on what he's like, or what he picks to show. Personally, I found Chinese people to be generally very helpful to each other, and to foreigners. Much more than I've ever seen in France! The exception were the "new rich people", who treated others horribly quite often. But we can hardly call that part of the Chinese mentality, when they are making money in a super capitalistic setting. So, I don't know, but...

I visited China a couple of years ago for two weeks only, so my experience is very limited.

During those two weeks the Chinese were rather helpful in general. For example, almost every day I took the bus and showed the driver or other passengers the photo of my destination, and they always signaled me when it was time for me to exit the bus.

Also, once a local shop owner came up to me and explained with gestures that yesterday I forgot my stuff near the hotel and she took it to her shop to return it to me later. She was a very nice old lady.

During that trip we also required urgent medical help twice, including at night, which was duly provided to us. Although this was their job, so I'm not sure this can be regarded as helpfulness, but anyway. By the way, the medical treatment worked, so kudos to Chinese medicine for that (they cured the ear infection).

Once a Chinese family that we met there invited us to have a dinner with them. We were communicating in English, because we don't speak Chinese, and they don't speak Russian. That was also a nice experience.

Also during our trip we have never been robbed or otherwise abused. But again, we only spent two weeks in China, so our experience is very limited to judge, so fwiw.
 
[...]
This almost punctilious adherence to legal principles is quite alien to the chopsticks people. For them, for the Chinese, you have got to look at the overall picture. Should you or should you not? If you should, then you find a way to do it.
[...]

One of the best ways to learn about any culture is through its art. Here's an interesting research about it.

Another interesting difference with respect to perspective in a more general sense is related to the pictorial subjects of Western and Chinese paintings. Western artists favor object-centered scenes, whereas Chinese artists prefer context-oriented scenes. Paintings in the West typically seek to make the object salient, i.e., to distinguish the object from the background (Masuda et al., 2008). In China it has been otherwise; Chinese artists put great emphasis on the context, often with a meditative theme showing small human figures, as if humans are embedded in a natural environment and awed or inspired by a mountainous landscape (Turner, 2009), or even overwhelmed by the sublime (Burke, 1757).


Here's also a good article that talks about the differences in Asian vs Western perception of the world, society, relationships, etc.

In wise words of Putin: "We shouldn’t criticise what they do in China. They have 1.5 billion people. 1.5 billion! You go ahead and try to control 1.5 billion people."

Speaking of Putin and Russia...

Some Russian political commentators, primarily liberal ones, speak about alleged Chinese interests in the Far East regions of Russia, due to it being rich in all kind of resources. That right now they rent and invest in vast areas there, but obviously would eventually love to own it. Another claim is that Russia is selling wood to China. As if recent wildfires in Siberia were artificially created in order to sell all the leftover wood to China. Others claim that China is going to syphon water from Baikal, etc.

So there appears to be a clear intent by some sources in Russia to create a "Chinese scare" and that "Chinese are coming".

Conservative and pro-Putin sources appear to be more level headed, and they point out all kind of holes in the liberal anti-Chinese narratives. But even they are careful and say that China plays some sort of geopolitical game and not everything is rosy as it seems. For example, there is this recent commentary.

Apparently an article was posted on one of the most famous Chinese sites SOHU.com titled (paraphrasing) "It's time to take back Siberia", where the author claims that 2000 years ago China was the one to explore Siberia, and much more extensively than Russians. In effect claiming some sort of ownership on the region. That since Siberia has such a harsh climate, it was China's choice to let Russia have it (no kidding!). And that China saw Siberia as a place to send their criminals to, nothing more.

Or there is another famous Chinese Q&A site zhihu.com, where someone asked if it's true that the origins of the name Siberia are Chinese. This was brought as an example of what simple Chinese are thinking about clearly Russian territory. But other Russians commented on the video and pointed out that these sources are like "Echo of Moscow", spreading Western propaganda and outlandish speculations in order to instigate discord.


My personal take on China is actually similar to my take on Russia. On the global scale both countries and their leaders make definite steps toward creating an alternative to the imperialistic global control of the West, USA in particular. On an internal level both countries have their own nuanced governing, and also nuanced problems and corruption. For example, some Russians complain and are gradually getting tired of Putin, because despite progress in many areas there is still a lot of corruption, and this fact is being constantly fueled and emphasized by all kind of sources. But even without liberal manipulations some areas in Russia are so poor and are still in such a bad state, these things should be constantly uncovered and brought to light. And they are, but there is still a long way to go.

Unfortunately there are still a lot of objectively bad and mismanaged things in Russia. Still rampant corruption and moronic thinking in many areas. And I am pretty sure that the same thing can apply to China. Just like in Russia there are a lot of goodwilling and kind people, who are helpful and nice toward each other or toward foreigners. And then there are various nuances that become apparent only if you live in this country for awhile, and particularly if you have to deal with various governmental bodies and bureaucracy. But every country has it. It's not all bad, and there is a lot of good. Russia has many faces. And the face you see highly depends on your income, level of education, resourcefulness and luck. And many other factors.

So in my opinion there are similar layers to China. And its "less appealing" layers are being used and emphasized by the pro-West sources.
 
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So there appears to be a clear intent by some sources in Russia to create a "Chinese scare" and that "Chinese are coming".

And I think we can safely bet that at least some key people who promote this scare in Russia are on the same boat as the US/Israeli/Western reality creators, with their obvious and gruesome fairly tales, created for very specific and inhumane agendas. A lot of those people could be on that boat and don't even notice it too.
 
A great thread that brought to light a lot of my internal Western biases towards China. On the whole, I was very much in agreement with Woodsman and others at the beginning of the thread. And still think there are valid concerns as to where this is all headed. But having gone through all the articles and videos posted, especially thanks to @seek10 for posting the link to the documentary on the recent history of China which I found fascinating and helped to understand the recent history with the Communist Party and how they have operated since the days of Chiang and Mao. I don't see them as this bastion of hope for the future, although they do offer that counter-balance to keep the West in check, but they are flawed in a number of ways just like in the West.

Initially though, I found them akin to the devil I don't know. Meaning, here in the West we have more of an in-depth understanding of the US and all the internal workings of it, being in the belly of the beast, but with China, information is sparse and they seem to want to keep it that way, much like the Iron curtain of old Soviet days. There definitely is a far more authoritarian and rigid stance on individual freedoms, or at least they are more overt about that control whereas we still have the 'illusion' of freedom and democracy even if much of that is being taken back. And there are definite shades of 1984 in how they refer to 'The Party'.

But, the Chinese people have been through hell and back in the last 100 years. How it is even possible for that country to still be standing and pull itself up after all they went through with civil war between the Communists and Nationalists, being invaded by Japan during all this, and Mao's "great leap forward" and "cultural revolution" is a sight to see. The Chinese people have experienced chaos and destruction of untold magnitudes so no wonder there is a push for order in modern China and they are somewhat ruthless by today's standards in making sure there is no Uighur uprising of any kind.

Although one thing that struck me was how much things would change based on who was the appointed leader. Mao was a great revolutionary, able to stir the emotions of the Chinese people, but once in power, he was absolutely insane in decision-making and his obsession with modernizing China brought near ruin not long after coming to power. He appointed what seemed a very reasonable temporary successor in Liu Shaoqi, and along with a few other moderates in the party they wanted to bring reforms that saw the people prosper. But Mao saw to it that didn't last and expelled them from the party and ignited the cultural revolution which was mass hysteria and bloodshed that makes what the Uighurs are experiencing seem very tame in comparison. Some in the documentary described the end of the cultural revolution like finally waking up from a dream. He was a definite spellbinder and worshiped almost like a living god. Both him and his wife were pathological and evil as far as I can tell. Once Mao died and she was ousted and arrested, the Chinese started to modernize.

As for what will happen if the US stops being at the top of the pyramid, well, probably what humanity will choose as a whole. JiPing, Putin and their circles won't be there forever.

Indeed. And from the little I know of Xi Jinping, he is a moderate and level-headed in his approach. So I'd have to say with the way things are on the BBM, that's about the best we can hope for.

My 2 cents.
 
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It can also depend on what he's like, or what he picks to show. Personally, I found Chinese people to be generally very helpful to each other, and to foreigners. Much more than I've ever seen in France! The exception were the "new rich people", who treated others horribly quite often. But we can hardly call that part of the Chinese mentality, when they are making money in a super capitalistic setting. So, I don't know, but...
I have heard many reports from friends doing big business in China that is is a uniquely STS environment. One needs to watch one's back in the worst way. A very different culture to the Western one.
 
Source (Dutch only): Beijings grote geheim stond op haar laptop

DeepL Translator said:
Beijing's big secret was on her laptop

Interview - Asiye Abdulaheb


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Asiye Abdulaheb Image: Aurélie Geurts


'You will end up in pieces in the black Kliko in your front yard.' Asiye Abdulaheb gets threats like that. This Uyghur Dutchwoman spent months on a bombshell in the form of Chinese state secrets about the infamous camps in Xinjiang. Thanks to her, the documents became world news but now Asiye fears reprisals. ''I need protection.''

Marije Vlaskamp 7 December 2019, 05:00 AM


Shaking with nerves, Asiye Abdulaheb (46) stares this summer in her Dutch living room at 24 pages of secret Chinese government documents on her laptop. Her mouth falls open. Never before has there been such irrefutable proof of how the camps function in which her people, the Uighurs, are locked up en masse.

The documents are stamped as jimi - secret. Asiye has the evidence Uighur activists have been longing for for years, but she doesn't know how to proceed. "I put a screenshot of such a document on Twitter, in the hope that a journalist or expert would find me."

She is sitting on top of a bomb: papers that undermine the Chinese government's official narrative. Beijing presents the camps as benign 'training centres' where Uighurs and other Muslims are 'cured' of extremist ideas, on a voluntary basis. The documents read rather as a manual for a prison camp. 'Manage locks and keys tightly - double-lock doors to dormitories, corridors and floors immediately after opening and closing.'

Students are checked during classes, showers and toilets, to prevent escape. And because this doesn't sound all that voluntary, it shouldn't leak out. 'It is necessary to increase staff awareness of secrecy and political discipline.'

The Uighurs are an Islamic people from the west of China, the province of Xinjiang. The area was given that name after China annexed it in 1949. Uighur activists call it East-Turkestan, their homeland that existed for a short time at the beginning of the last century. Uighur resistance to Han Chinese domination was expressed through social unrest and attacks - hundreds of people died each year. Without proper measures, this will develop into a Chinese version of the Islamic state, according to Beijing.

Those measures came in 2014, when large numbers of Uighurs start to disappear. According to human rights organisations, up to one million people are in camps. Evidence for this remains sporadic, in the form of testimonies from escaped internees, or details of tendering procedures for security equipment such as barbed wire and tasers. Beijing easily sweeps that off the table as malignant anti-Chinese propaganda.

But in these documents, the state itself - in its own bureaucratic jargon - tells how 'problem cases' are traced and locked up. China can breeze as much as it likes that the documents deliberately present an incomplete and heavily distorted picture, nevertheless the publication puts the human rights situation in Xinjiang sky high on every Western political agenda. After publication, the U.S. Senate quickly adopts a bill that provides for sanctions against Chinese politicians responsible for the camps.

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It became world news

To the satisfaction of Asiye, the last link in a short chain of people who found and passed on the documents. To protect those involved, she gives no further details. Her clumsy scramble for help on Twitter leads to the German data researcher Adrian Zenz, who has been committing himself to Xinjiang for years. Zenz confirms that he is investigating the authenticity of the papers for Asiye. Language and layout are similar to comparable government documents from Xinjiang, according to Zenz. He is 'strongly convinced' of the authenticity. A second academic, who on request speaks anonymously, is also in contact with Asiye.

This is the game changer for the Uighurs, says Zenz. Not that the pieces are rare - the Chinese bureaucracy is teeming with internal instructions and reports. But passing them on is extremely risky. The leaking of state secrets may easily lead to ten years of imprisonment. 'Uighurs who possess such documents may face the death penalty,' says Darren Byler, an American anthropologist specialising in Xinjiang.

The news organisations that have contact with Asiye are also afraid of repercussions from Beijing. Eventually, the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) and The New York Times take care of the project, under the name China Cables. In this way, the risk is spread over more than twenty different media. A week after the documents became world news, Asiye decided to make herself known to the Volkskrant as a source. She says: "I can handle pressure, but I'm afraid something will happen to my children and their father."

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Jasur Abibula - Image: Aurélie Geurts


Asiye meets Jasur Abibula (46) at Schiphol Airport, where they happen to apply for asylum at the same time in 2009. Ten years go by: the refugees become Dutch, learn their way around in a new country, and have two children. They consciously keep their distance from the Uyghur activist club in the Netherlands - Asiye wants to remain independent of their diaspora politics, she says. As an Uighur intellectual, she neatly spent most of her life working within the Chinese political system. Her Mandarin is fine and she has always worked for state institutions. Her family is not exactly religious, some of them were even party members, she says. She doesn't want to say anything about her motivation to flee.

The gentle Jasur works as a gardener, and that quiet Dutch life is enough for him. He is less activist than Asiye who tweets a lot and puts political monologues on YouTube. She is now busy with the children who are just attending primary school, but ultimately she wants more than such a housewives' existence. Writing essays about Uighur history, finding work, improving her Dutch: later, when the children grow up, she will do all that. Because of the differences between them, their marriage does not last.

Asiye doesn't tell Jasur what's in the documents, even if threats come in through Messenger. 'Stop it, otherwise you'll end up cut into pieces in the black kliko in your front yard,' it says in Uyghur. "I do indeed have just such a kliko [waste disposal unit]. But those documents have to be published, even if it kills me." Vehement fear beats to her heart when Jasur is approached by an unknown Uyghur, who says he speaks on behalf of an old friend in Xinjiang. That friend wants to see Jasur as a matter of urgency, and he needs to do so in Dubai. Tickets, accommodation: everything is arranged, says the contact person.

Their first reaction is: not to go. Later on, they start to doubt. That friend has professional access to confidential government information - who knows, he might have something to help the Uyghur case. On 9 September, Jasur flew to Dubai. His friend appears to have a whole company around him. A Han Chinese who speaks Uighur, who says he works for the state security service, runs the show. The rest of the company also consists of spies.

Harassment by Beijing

An unverifiable story. Jasur has his boarding passes, a screenshot of a Whatsapp conversation with the middleman, and snapshots of Arab sights. This is not hard evidence of intimidation, but his story fits in with the modus operandi of Chinese security services across the border. Incidentally, it is common for dissidents in China to go on holiday with state security agents.

Jasur talks about five confusing days. In the evening meals with drinks in luxury hotels, during the day trips with a threatening undertone. "We would drive through the desert and they then said : 'if you hide a body here, nobody will find it.' ."

Since 2011, infiltration of the Uyghur community in the Netherlands has been mentioned as a matter of concern in the annual reports of the Dutch security service AIVD. Lately, more and more Uighurs complain about intimidation by the Chinese government. This openness is new. In the past, most Uighurs used to confine themselves to video messages about missing family members. Byler: "The local police in China contacts them to make sure they stop talking. This sometimes results in tiny benefits: video chats with family in camps, earlier release. If that solves the problem of a complaining Uighur, the police have that leeway. That's how much China is focused on controlling the story of the camps."

Hence the strong pressure in Dubai. Jasur's hosts want those documents. Which brand of laptop do Jasur and Asiye use, which smartphone? Jasur is not well versed in technology. They teach him to break into a laptop with a USB stick. On it are music videos, and a video recording in which Jasur recognizes the way to his parental home up to the front door. Then they let him watch their cell phones, for video footage of his mother who is questioned about Jasur. Crying, the elderly woman says that she cannot reach her son.

"We don't sleep anymore"

Uighurs with family abroad are potential candidates for 'training centres'. This is why many Uighurs break off all family contacts. So do Jasur and Asiye. "If I were to help, I would be allowed to visit my mother. I would get a visa without any problems," says Jasur. Where he works, how much he earns, where he lives, and with whom he mingles: his supervisors know everything. As a nice sideline job he is suggested to spy among fellow citizens in the Netherlands. 'We have so many Uighurs in the West who help us. You can do the same.' Jasur feels the veiled threat: they are everywhere.

Back in the Netherlands paranoia grabs him. When he visits Asiye in her terraced house, he first disposes of all the clothes and other things that went with him to Dubai. He puts them out of earshot in the garden - suppose there's a transmitter in there somewhere. When he hears what these documents say, Jasur is so desperate that he wants to flee to the United States. "The Netherlands is so small, where can I hide?"

Scary phone calls, vague acquaintances who suddenly appear at the door: the pressure is increased. They report the threat to the local police. They call in the AIVD, says Asiye. "That helps a bit, but we don't sleep anymore. We need more protection. Publicity offers us security."

Her fears are well-founded, says anthropologist Byler, especially when it comes to family members in Xinjiang. Yet he thinks that the Chinese security apparatus ultimately gives priority to blocking sensitive information. "It's already out in the open, they cannot do anything about it anymore. If you don't keep quiet about intimidation, if you challenge them to live up to their bluff, at some point they usually stop."

Asiye and Jasur look the one-party state straight in the eye and say: here we are. Adrian Zenz: "The Chinese government knew already that she's the hatch. With these new revelations she does insult China, but when they should tackle her she draws attention to Chinese interference abroad, and Xinjiang gets even higher on the map."

Now that she has made herself known, her heart feels lighter, says Asiye. "Thank God we haven't betrayed anyone. We are fairly well integrated in the Netherlands. We rely on the community policeman."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


Added info from the newspaper:
DeepL Translator said:
1.
The Chinese province of Xinjiang is home to 12 million Uighurs and other Muslims. A special computer program that is fed with appalling amounts of data searches for 'problem cases' from this population. Suspected are people who watch religious videos on their phones, use software to circumvent internet censorship, or have family abroad.

In one of the documents, the system identifies 24,412 'problem cases' in South Xinjiang. Of these, 15,683 people went to a 'training centre', 706 to a police cell and over 2,000 people were put under 'preventive surveillance'. This was the yield of only a single week, in June 2017. On the basis of this kind of information, human rights organisations conclude that up to one million Uighurs have been detained.

2.
Picked up by the algorithm

In China, hundreds of thousands of innocent people end up in re-education camps because a supercomputer classifies them as suspect on the basis of a risk assessment [in Dutch]. Secret government documents show how Beijing uses artificial intelligence for massive human rights violations.
 

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