Advice please re "critical" posting

RedFox said:
Galahad, thank you for that interpretation....its helped me highlight several things quite clearly. I wonder if that can be reversed to say something about the forum and the environment here? That it is (both individuals and the network and a unified whole) perhaps the archetypal parent/teacher, who understands and accepts us for who we are and where we may be in our development and learning. To general that much fear of rejection suggests that their is a great deal of conscious love here! What we all where lacking in different levels as we grew up in this penorised world.

I'd say that is exactly what this forum is and can become: a place where we each feel safe to be ourselves, knowing that if and when we show our darker sides, that can be pointed out by people we have come to trust. Yes, all those programmes we have within us, the fear, the insecurities, may show their heads in our immediate emotional responses. But we can learn to see them, stop identifying with them, and not acting on them.

RedFox, I'm in my fifties, and yet I still get these reactions. In me it is quite often anger. When I look at it a bit, I see it is a reaction based on pain. And where does that pain come from? From feeling that I was never accepted for who I was in my family, never loved unconditionally, always expected to conform to my parents' idealized image of a family.

Yes, the forum, the network, can become the parent/teacher. Yes, there is a tremendous amount of conscious love here.
 
slowone said:
I hope I am articulate enough to explain clearly

Slowone, I cannot thank you enough for your opening post in this thread. Your post is very articulate, and speaks for me and probably many other forum members too.

And Laura, thank you so much for your post in reply to slowone.

Laura said:
Most often, people think emotionally because they have a lot of scars of the soul and repressed and suppressed emotions, mainly painful emotions.

Over the past few days I have been very emotional, with a lot of previously repressed emotion arising in me, all related to my childhood. I grew up in a narcissistic family and can remember perhaps 1% of my childhood.

I post infrequently for similar reasons to slowone. I had almost decided to give up posting because I thought that if I wanted to write about these arising emotions I would have to do so in a very intellectual way, or that such posts would be seen as noise and so not really accepted.

And this is a problem for me, just as Galahad writes:

Galahad said:
And where does that pain come from? From feeling that I was never accepted for who I was in my family, never loved unconditionally, always expected to conform to my parents' idealized image of a family.

Laura said:
It was a way of working that brooked no whining and crying, and sought to deal with emotional issues strictly from an intellectual point of view. It works for some people... but that number seems to be VERY small.

I noticed this atmosphere of the forum (I’m not one of that very small number) and found it intimidating. At the same time I have learnt so much from the people here, and especially from Laura’s work. These sources have changed my view of the world forever, and I will always be grateful. But my emotional Work has not kept pace with my intellectual Work. Actually, I feel that I cannot go further with intellectual Work until I have made some real progress in my emotional Work.

I always thought that for me, the Work method that would be effective is expressing my negative feelings and receiving (hopefully) objective feedback about them, but I didn’t feel safe doing that on the forum. Intellectually I can trace this feeling (lack of safety) back to my unremembered childhood, but emotionally this area in me is so tangled up and full of pain and grief, that I need to be able to use that as the fuel for Work. Part of this Work, I think, is cleaning my emotional centre so that I am not influenced by repressed pain when ‘reading’ reality.

The few times I have posted ‘negatively’ have brought constructive feedback (from anart, actually!). I can, again intellectually, see that on this basis it is OK to post in that way. But emotionally, I find it very difficult to train the ‘horse’ to accept this. It seems to me that the only way to train the horse is to Work in the way I’ve described.

For the past three mornings I have had dreams of music, in which I have either been playing, or somehow involved in, the creation of the most beautiful music. And yet, on awakening, I have been filled with grief, and have cried uncontrollably. I had a similar dream this morning. At first I thought these were connected with Working on my childhood pain – I did learn to play several instruments as a child. But this morning I thought, what if these dreams are about the network here? What if they are about the breathing program, and are showing me that attuning myself more deeply to the Cass network – the Ark – is a project of exquisite beauty, and the grief and sadness arises from those parts of me that are not in tune? Perhaps more accurately – grief and pain are a clearing of the emotional centre brought about by the higher energy of the Cassiopaean Ark.

And then this morning I read your post, slowone, and your reply, Laura, and I thought – thank creation!

And I am going to take a risk – I’m posting this and I am not going to allow my negative introject to stop me!
 
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that we are giving up "mirroring" entirely since it is very useful and helpful, but I think that it needs to be done incrementally and perhaps more gently. But then, sometimes, even when it is very gentle, the individual has a sharp reaction that is all out of proportion to the situation. That is a clue for us that there is either some deep pain or pathology is present. As the Cs have pointed out, it is often difficult to tell which is which. All of the mods are not trained psychologists, but we do have a physician and several trained psychological counselors with advanced degrees moderating.

Regarding expressing negative emotions, this thread has given me the idea that we might want to create a separate forum for that and call it "The Swamp" or "Slough of Despond" or something like that. This will give the members a place where they can go and vent. They can announce at the beginning of their post whether they want a mirror or just want to blow off steam. I don't know if this is a good idea or not; I'd like some feedback.
 
Laura said:
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that we are giving up "mirroring" entirely since it is very useful and helpful, but I think that it needs to be done incrementally and perhaps more gently. But then, sometimes, even when it is very gentle, the individual has a sharp reaction that is all out of proportion to the situation. That is a clue for us that there is either some deep pain or pathology is present. As the Cs have pointed out, it is often difficult to tell which is which. All of the mods are not trained psychologists, but we do have a physician and several trained psychological counselors with advanced degrees moderating.

Regarding expressing negative emotions, this thread has given me the idea that we might want to create a separate forum for that and call it "The Swamp" or "Slough of Despond" or something like that. This will give the members a place where they can go and vent. They can announce at the beginning of their post whether they want a mirror or just want to blow off steam. I don't know if this is a good idea or not; I'd like some feedback.


Without some guidelines it could turn into a snipe fest, or become Troll bait. :/ Maybe try it out for a couple weeks to remain open on the idea?

I think "Bog of Eternal Stench" would be good, but I don't know if that's a copyright infringement or not. ;D The movie Labyrinth popped into my head the second I read 'The Swamp".
 
Hi Slowone,
Thanks for your post I could understood what you were saying, I personally found it interesting because it is the opposite of my behaviour. Many times I have to stop myself from posting because I have a tendency to address people with a confrontational attitude, I've also embarrassed myself on a number of occasions. Most of this behaviour stems from my low self esteem and trying to over compensate, I also often get angry with moderators for what I mistakenly think are them trying to get posters to acquiesce.

I too have learned an incredible amount here and am in awe at the level of understanding and patience showing by the 'elders'. This process is not easy for any us, I mean I've recently discovered that I've been trying subconsciously to get banned (how crazy is that) and why? To prove that I 'm right about been the outsider, never been able to fit in, I always questioning authority and refuse to blindly follow etc etc it just goes on and on.

I've acquired enough fear myself (strangely not the fear of been banned) from frightening and traumatic experiences in my childhood just like most here. So for what its worth I would encourage you to post especially since I think that the opening post of this thread is inspiring. :D

And a big thank you all.
 
Laura said:
Regarding expressing negative emotions, this thread has given me the idea that we might want to create a separate forum for that and call it "The Swamp" or "Slough of Despond" or something like that. This will give the members a place where they can go and vent. They can announce at the beginning of their post whether they want a mirror or just want to blow off steam. I don't know if this is a good idea or not; I'd like some feedback.
Sounds like an excellent idea to me. Like the title The Swamp - perfect!

Edit for some additional thoughts:
Although we don't post under our real names it might feel more safe if you could limit visibility of this sub forum only to the active members, lets say with minimum of 100 posts.
 
Although we don't post under our real names it might feel more safe if you could limit visibility of this sub forum only to the active members, lets say with minimum of 100 posts.

Hi Corto

I do not understand how that would help. The message I got from the original post, and one that resounded with me, was the difficulty some of us find in the very act of "posting"

I read some of the posts in this thread by "treble figure posters" who tell us they find it hard to post, and wonder what possible hope there can be for members like me, who so far have struggled to have the confidence of even having 20 things that I thought were worth saying.

Perhaps it is all relative and I am missing the point, but surely such a sub-section would be helpful for all?

In fact, you are one of the members whose ease and style of posting I admire. Please do not leave us behind.
 
Laura said:
Regarding expressing negative emotions, this thread has given me the idea that we might want to create a separate forum for that and call it "The Swamp" or "Slough of Despond" or something like that. This will give the members a place where they can go and vent. They can announce at the beginning of their post whether they want a mirror or just want to blow off steam. I don't know if this is a good idea or not; I'd like some feedback.

Seems A very good idea, we lose nothing by trying, and with time and experience will see if it is useful or how to improve it, if necessary.
 
Gimpy said:
Laura said:
Regarding expressing negative emotions, this thread has given me the idea that we might want to create a separate forum for that and call it "The Swamp" or "Slough of Despond" or something like that. This will give the members a place where they can go and vent. They can announce at the beginning of their post whether they want a mirror or just want to blow off steam. I don't know if this is a good idea or not; I'd like some feedback.

Without some guidelines it could turn into a snipe fest, or become Troll bait. :/ Maybe try it out for a couple weeks to remain open on the idea?

I think this is a good idea, at least to try anyway. One of the forums I use to frequent a lot with my old friends on had exactly that sort of section on. Two other things of note along with the possible trolling (although they may be obvious) is the use of such a section to avoid working on ones self (tricky to find balance - perhaps it would be suggested that people Only posting there have a journal instead?) and the potential to seek food in the form of sympathy amongst other things (again perhaps tricky to spot??).
On a positive note however, I have shared quite a few painful personal events here and felt like a weight has been lifted by doing so. If this is the case for others then such a section may help relieve some of the pressure/fear of posting? :)
I seem to be in the process of learning all I can about emotional expression/healing so if I run across anything else that may relate to this I'll add it.
I did wonder last night perhaps it would be beneficial to those that fear posting to have some sort of positive motivational (for want of a better word) articles/posts to help them get past the fear?
 
Referring back to my first post in this thread, I dug out the Oakley book and posted the quote from it in another thread already (which might be useful to read in relation to the topic of this thread). So, just for ease, I'm going to paste it in here along with some of the other material from that post that is related to this topic:

Lobaczewski said:
During good times, people progressively lose sight of the need for profound reflection, introspection, knowledge of others, and an understanding of life’s complicated laws. Is it worth pondering the properties of human nature and man’s flawed personality, whether one’s own or someone else’s? Can we understand the creative meaning of suffering we have not undergone ourselves, instead of taking the easy way out and blaming the victim? Any excess mental effort seems like pointless labor if life’s joys appear to be available for the taking. A clever, liberal, and merry individual is a good sport; a more farsighted person predicting dire results becomes a wet-blanket killjoy.

Perception of the truth about the real environment, especially an understanding of the human personality and its values, ceases to be a virtue during the so-called “happy” times; thoughtful doubters are decried as meddlers who cannot leave well enough alone. This, in turn, leads to an impoverishment of psychological knowledge, the capacity of differentiating the properties of human nature and personality, and the ability to mold minds creatively. The cult of power thus supplants those mental values so essential for maintaining law and order by peaceful means. A nation’s enrichment or involution regarding its psychological world view could be considered an indicator of whether its future will be good or bad.

During “good” times, the search for truth becomes uncomfortable because it reveals inconvenient facts. It is better to think about easier and more pleasant things. Unconscious elimination of data which are, or appear to be, inexpedient gradually turns into habit, and then becomes a custom accepted by society at large. The problem is that any thought process based on such truncated information cannot possibly give rise to correct conclusions; it further leads to subconscious substitution of inconvenient premises by more convenient ones, thereby approaching the boundaries of psychopathology.

Such contented periods for one group of people - often rooted in some injustice to other people or nations - start to strangle the capacity for individual and societal consciousness; subconscious factors take over a decisive role in life. Such a society... considers any perception of uncomfortable truth to be a sign of “ill-breeding”. {...}

Information selection and substitution: The existence of psychological phenomena known to pre-Freudian philosophical students of the subconscious bears repeating. Unconscious psychological processes outstrip conscious reasoning, both in time and in scope, which makes many psychological phenomena possible: including those generally described as conversive, such as subconscious blocking out of conclusions, the selection, and, also, substitution of seemingly uncomfortable premises.

We speak of blocking out conclusions if the inferential process was proper in principle and has almost arrived at a conclusion and final comprehension within the act of internal projection, but becomes stymied by a preceding directive from the subconscious, which considers it inexpedient or disturbing. This is primitive prevention of personality disintegration, which may seem advantageous; however, it also prevents all the advantages which could be derived from consciously elaborated conclusion and reintegration. A conclusion thus rejected remains in our subconscious and in a more unconscious way causes the next blocking and selection of this kind. This can be extremely harmful, progressively enslaving a person to his own subconscious, and is often accompanied by a feeling of tension and bitterness.

We speak of selection of premises whenever the feedback goes deeper into the resulting reasoning and from its database thus deletes and represses into the subconscious just that piece of information which was responsible for arriving at the uncomfortable conclusion. Our subconscious then permits further logical reasoning, except that the outcome will be erroneous in direct proportion to the actual significance of the repressed data. An ever-greater number of such repressed information is collected in our subconscious memory. Finally, a kind of habit seems to take over: similar material is treated the same way even if reasoning would have reached an outcome quite advantageous to the person.

The most complex process of this type is substitution of premises thus eliminated by other data, ensuring an ostensibly more comfortable conclusion. Our associative ability rapidly elaborates a new item to replace the removed one, but it is one leading to a comfortable conclusion. This operation takes the most time, and it is unlikely to be exclusively subconscious. Such substitutions are often effected collectively, in certain groups of people, through the use of verbal communication. That is why they best qualify for the moralizing epithet “hypocrisy” than either of the above-mentioned processes.

The above examples of conversive phenomena do not exhaust a problem richly illustrated in psychoanalytical works. Our subconscious may carry the roots of human genius within, but its operation is not perfect; sometimes it is reminiscent of a blind computer, especially whenever we allow it to be cluttered with anxiously rejected material. This explains why conscious monitoring, even at the price of courageously accepting disintegrative states, is likewise necessary to our nature, not to mention our individual and social good.

There is no such thing as a person whose perfect self-knowledge allows him to eliminate all tendencies toward conversive thinking, but some people are relatively close to this state, while others remain slaves to these processes. Those people who use conversive operations too often for the purpose of finding convenient conclusions, or constructing some cunning paralogistic or paramoralistic statements, eventually begin to undertake such behavior for ever more trivial reasons, losing the capacity for conscious control over their thought process altogether. This necessarily leads to behavior errors which must be paid for by others as well as themselves.

People who have lost their psychological hygiene and capacity of proper thought along this road also lose their natural critical faculties with regard to the statements and behavior of {pathological individuals}. Hypocrites stop differentiating between pathological and normal individuals, thus opening an “infection entry” for the ponerologic role of pathological factors.

Generally, each community contains people in whom similar methods of thinking were developed on a large scale, with their various deviations as a backdrop. We find this both in characteropathic and psychopathic personalities. Some have even been influenced by others to grow accustomed to such “reasoning”, since conversion thinking is highly contagious and can spread throughout an entire society. In “happy times” especially, the tendency for conversion thinking generally intensifies.


The situation is physiological in many cases, as Lobaczewski suggests elsewhere:

Lobaczewski said:
We know today that the psychological mechanism of paranoid phenomena is twofold: one is caused by damage to the brain tissue, the other is functional or behavioral. ... {A}ny brain-tissue lesion causes a certain slackening of accurate thinking and, as a consequence, of the personality structure. Most typical are those cases caused by an aggression in the diencephalon by various pathological factors, resulting in its permanently decreased tonal ability, and similarly of the tonus of inhibition in the brain cortex. Particularly during sleepless nights, runaway thoughts give rise to a paranoid changed view of human reality, as well as to ideas which can be either gently naive or violently revolutionary. Let us call this kind paranoid characteropathy.

In persons free of brain tissue lesions, such phenomena most frequently occur as a result of being reared by people with paranoid characteropathia, along with the psychological terror of their childhood. Such psychological material is then assimilated creating the rigid stereotypes of abnormal experiencing. This makes it difficult for thought and world view to develop normally, and the terror-blocked contents become transformed into permanent, functional, congestive centers.

If you will search the forum for the term "primitive defense mechanism", you will find some further discussion on how these things get started in early childhood.

Barbara Oakley, in her book "Evil Genes" gets into some of the more recent research that describes aspects of some of these "congestive areas" of the brain:

Barbara Oakley said:
A recent imaging study by psychologist Drew Westen and his colleagues at Emory University provides firm support for the existence of emotional reasoning. Just prior to the 2004 Bush-Kerry presidential elections, two groups of subjects were recruited - fifteen ardent Democrats and fifteen ardent Republicans. Each was presented with conflicting and seemingly damaging statements about their candidate, as well as about more neutral targets such as actor Tom Hanks (who, it appears, is a likable guy for people of all political persuasions). Unsurprisingly, when the participants were asked to draw a logical conclusion about a candidate from the other - "wrong" - political party, the participants found a way to arrive at a conclusion that made the candidate look bad, even though logic should have mitigated the particular circumstances and allowed them to reach a different conclusion. Here's where it gets interesting.

When this "emote control" began to occur, parts of the brain normally involved in reasoning were not activated. Instead, a constellation of activations occurred in the same areas of the brain where punishment, pain, and negative emotions are experienced (that is, in the left insula, lateral frontal cortex, and ventromedial prefrontal cortex). Once a way was found to ignore information that could not be rationally discounted, the neural punishment areas turned off, and the participant received a blast of activation in the circuits involving rewards - akin to the high an addict receives when getting his fix.

In essence, the participants were not about to let facts get in the way of their hot-button decision making and quick buzz of reward. "None of the circuits involved in conscious reasoning were particularly engaged," says Westen. "Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones." {...}

Ultimately, Westen and his colleagues believe that "emotionally biased reasoning leads to the 'stamping in' or reinforcement of a defensive belief, associationg the participant's 'revisionist' account of the data with positive emotion or relief and elimination of distress. 'The result is that partisan beliefs are calcified, and the person can learn very little from new data,'" Westen says. Westen's remarkable study showed that neural information processing related to what he terms "motivated reasoning" ... appears to be qualitatively different from reasoning when a person has no strong emotional stake in the conclusions to be reached.

The study is thus the first to describe the neural processes that underlie political judgment and decision making, as well as to describe processes involving emote control, psychological defense, confirmatory bias, and some forms of cognitive dissonance. The significance of these findings ranges beyond the study of politics: "Everyone from executives and judges to scientists and politicians may reason to emotionally biased judgments when they have a vested interest in how to interpret 'the facts,'" according to Westen.

It may be that some people have extremely sensitive genetic substrata that make them particularly sensitive to this "brain pain" and thus, even though they are quite intelligent, they simply cannot tolerate the suffering they experience if they do not "think as they were taught to think" under some particular situation as a child or during some particular event when their thinking processes were formed or re-formed. On this topic, you might wish to have a look at my article on Transmarginal Inhibition. Also, have a look at this one: Transmarginal Inhibition: Chronic Fatigue and Childhood Abuse Linked in CDC Study
 
Gimpy said:
Without some guidelines it could turn into a snipe fest, or become Troll bait.

This is something I thought of as well. If a troll jumps in after someone has just taken a difficult step, it will not only damage the individual, but also discourage future posters. Let alone erroneous advice from a well intentioned forum member...

A solution might be a dedicated child board where only moderators can give advice, and other members can only view (or not, like Corto says – but then no one else benefits, thus defeating the whole purpose of a network), and not post, to avoid that risk (if the forum software even allows this function). Maybe a name that would embody the aim of the board (although the current suggestions are funny) to remind everyone that the ultimate goal of the board is to deal with the negative stuff, and move beyond it – to become free).
 
Okay, I've created the board. I thought that Corto's suggestion was good so limited it to "Padawan Learners" and above - that is a minimum of 50 posts. That should help to keep out flamers and trolls...
 
Oh, forgot... it's a daughter board of "The Work" ...

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?board=57.0
 
mada85 said:
slowone said:
I hope I am articulate enough to explain clearly

Slowone, I cannot thank you enough for your opening post in this thread. Your post is very articulate, and speaks for me and probably many other forum members too.

And Laura, thank you so much for your post in reply to slowone.

Laura said:
Most often, people think emotionally because they have a lot of scars of the soul and repressed and suppressed emotions, mainly painful emotions.

Over the past few days I have been very emotional, with a lot of previously repressed emotion arising in me, all related to my childhood. I grew up in a narcissistic family and can remember perhaps 1% of my childhood.

I post infrequently for similar reasons to slowone. I had almost decided to give up posting because I thought that if I wanted to write about these arising emotions I would have to do so in a very intellectual way, or that such posts would be seen as noise and so not really accepted.

And this is a problem for me, just as Galahad writes:

Galahad said:
And where does that pain come from? From feeling that I was never accepted for who I was in my family, never loved unconditionally, always expected to conform to my parents' idealized image of a family.

Laura said:
It was a way of working that brooked no whining and crying, and sought to deal with emotional issues strictly from an intellectual point of view. It works for some people... but that number seems to be VERY small.

I noticed this atmosphere of the forum (I’m not one of that very small number) and found it intimidating. At the same time I have learnt so much from the people here, and especially from Laura’s work. These sources have changed my view of the world forever, and I will always be grateful. But my emotional Work has not kept pace with my intellectual Work. Actually, I feel that I cannot go further with intellectual Work until I have made some real progress in my emotional Work.

I always thought that for me, the Work method that would be effective is expressing my negative feelings and receiving (hopefully) objective feedback about them, but I didn’t feel safe doing that on the forum. Intellectually I can trace this feeling (lack of safety) back to my unremembered childhood, but emotionally this area in me is so tangled up and full of pain and grief, that I need to be able to use that as the fuel for Work. Part of this Work, I think, is cleaning my emotional centre so that I am not influenced by repressed pain when ‘reading’ reality.

After reading the replies here it has been more than a risk worth taking. I feel like a weight has lifted from my shoulders. As Galahad posted I am sure my Narcissistic childhood created my baseline for emotional responses, it certainly prevented me from feeling accepted or safe to to take risks.

What I feel even sadder about is that I agree with Mada85, the stranglehold my emotional centre exerts over my Intellectual centre. It clammers to be heard and acknowledged to the detriment of the work that I most definitely need to do intellectually. I mentioned in my original post that I don't have the problem with factual posts. That's because I'm unable I guess to divert my energy away from the emotional centre sufficiently to consistently focus intellectually for any length of time.

What this thread has done for me is clear the table of clutter. I know emotionally that I will risk my "shadow" side, responsibly I hope, especially on the new board, I need to move on. Thank you Laura. I need to move on to strengthen my slower intellectual centre so that I can move toward "the very few".

If there was any doubt in my mind about the potency of the breathing and meditation then the universe answered my request.

I asked both the divine cosmic mind and PF for help with this subject on Monday night!
 
Now I am really confused.

I must have misunderstood this entire thread, I thought it was about the members who find posting difficult, looking for the support and encouragement to do so.

Especially the ones that were fearful that they may come across as sounding negative, which I fear I am doing now.

I wonder if excluding people who have less than fifty posts does not in some ways defeat the object?
Where do I go as a 20 something poster to feel protected while posting honestly and from the heart?

Does the fact that a place exists for posts of this nature, now mean that is even less appropriate to do so within the main forum arena, because there is a venue put aside for that very purpose ? Albeit that those less inclined to do it in the first place have no access to that area?

If anything, "the swamp" could have been an area to protect those with under 50 posts! to allow them to feel their feet when posting cautiously and gingerly.

Surely even people with more than 50 posts are capable of “trolling” and other issues that this move intends to discourage?

I think I actually feel more distanced now, then I did when first posted on this thread.

Perhaps it is jut me, and if no one agrees with me, of course I shall examine my own feelings over this development, but I interpret it as a step in the opposite direction of the sentiment of the original post, and still, it leaves members who fear posting, in the same place they always were at the start of this thread.

And now I feel that I have been too negative, but Slowone's post was an inspirastion, and in the spirit of that original post to this thread I will bravely hit “post”
 
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