Advice please re "critical" posting

[Avi]

Dear Laura, Slowone and All,

I just wanted to add one quick thought. Though it is taking me some time to adjust to the nature of this forum I believe that by and large the participants ARE sincere and for all the hard work that I know goes into making such a forum wanted to say thank-you.

The bit I wanted to add however is that, and I hope I express this well, even though it is obvious you, Laura, take a lot of personal responsibility for the nature of the forum, the content, etc, I think at some point people do have to do more than "meet you half way" in that each and everyone of us, myself included, must take responsibility for our own learning and what we want not only from this forum but also both within and from life.

After all didn't the C's say "learning is fun!"?

:)

Learning to relate is challenging too. Add to this the component of the tricky perceptions, the emotional baggage, the clear signs of this world going to hell in a hand-basket and it appears grim at the best of times!

Yet no one here can relate or learn for me, not even with the purest intent in the world.

I have a responsibility to learn. Relating on this forum is part of that responsibility.

That is how I see it anyways.

With kind regards,

Avi

Slowone, you have my deepest apologies if the atmosphere of the forum has hindered your posting and progress. Things are changing, as you can see. We learn - I learn - constantly, and when I see that the compass heading isn't taking us where we want to go, I'm ready to adjust.

In the beginning, this was supposed to be a forum dedicated to "The Work" more or less as Gurdjieff conceived it with modifications based on Mouravieff and Castaneda, modern psychology including cognitive therapy, etc. It was a way of working that brooked no whining and crying, and sought to deal with emotional issues strictly from an intellectual point of view. It works for some people... but that number seems to be VERY small. So, we we are in the process of seriously modifying that idea. Maybe that's why Gurdjieff didn't get any further than he did - he got stuck on one method that he had conceived and experimented with, and could go no further. He was so screamingly, in-your-face right about so many things, but his approach just never got off the ground.

Obviously, the majority of human beings are very complex creatures with a strong component of emotion. If we will admit right up front that probably most normal people THINK with emotional energy, then we are one step ahead. But then, we have to figure out why and ameliorate those conditions.

Most often, people think emotionally because they have a lot of scars of the soul and repressed and suppressed emotions, mainly painful emotions. There are also cognitive reasons why emotions tend to dominate thinking but I don't have the resource to hand at this moment to quote that most interesting research. I'll come back with it later.

In any event, we are now in the midst of a most exciting experiment in a NEW WAY of working on these problems that amounts to a "course correction" - the Eíriú-Eolas - Program. The initial results are VERY encouraging and I can see major changes in people's thinking (by reading their posts) on a daily basis.

So, unless a person shows clear signs of pathology, I - and all the moderators - will make a concerted effort to accommodate the many emotional issues of the forum members as long as those members are making every effort to meet us half way! Because, we do have a destination and we don't have a lot of time, so it's a good idea for everyone to put their shoulder to the wheel in every way they can so we can move this Ark where we want to come to shore!

Meanwhile, consider the following essay which is a very easy way of understanding how tricky the mind can be. I read this guy occasionally. He can be so close, and never get there, and so wrong with the right data. Typical. What he writes here touch directly on "The Work" in a simple, easy to understand way.

http://www.increasebrainpower.com/power-of-the-mind.html

The Dangerous Power Of The Mind
Steve Gillman

When people speak of the power of the mind they typically are assuming
that it is a good thing. Sometimes anecdotal stories also refer to the
mind's "unusual" powers, like using visualization to cure an illness.
But there is a dark side to our mental powers as well.

Any power can be used for good or bad purposes. The problem with the
power of the mind is that it not only can be used for bad purposes, but
it can simultaneously convince the "user" that his or her purposes are
in fact good. I put "user" in quotation marks because in these cases we
are not really using the mind so much as it is using us.

Granted we have to allow ourselves to be used, but this is common. Once
we identify strongly with our own thought processes and accept the
mistaken idea that our mind is our "self," we tend to follow it blindly.
(A person is much more than a mind, but that's a discussion for another
time.) And it is powerful. The mind is able to find a logical reason for
almost anything that we find ourselves doing or thinking.

A quick example: Suppose you saw a man going into a theater mumbling, "I
hate this movie." Later he comes out complaining about it. Then you see
him return to the same movie again and again, the whole time hating it
and complaining about it. You might think this is silly at best, or
verging on mental illness. But how often do people return to the same
mental movies (bad memories) again and again even though they cause
pain? The mind has an excuse ready, of course. It might suggest that
this is how one "resolves" issues from the past - despite no evidence of
any resolution. In fact, some people can revisit the same negative
memories and thoughts for a lifetime.

(Finding some resolution to problems through revisiting the past may be
possible when it's the actual goal and when appropriate techniques
and/or professional help are used. But this is not what most dwelling on
the past is about though.)

That's an example of being under the influence of the mind. All of us
have times when the mind is using us rather than the other way around.
This can be especially true in those who have made a form of religion
out of logic and reason.

For an example of that lets look at the June 2008 issue of Liberty
magazine, whose writers and readers are known for their esteeming of
reason above almost everything else. In that issue they published the
results of a poll of readers. Here are some of the questions they asked:

"Suppose that a parent of a newborn baby places it in front of a picture
window and sells tickets to anyone wishing to observe the child starve
to death. He makes it clear that the child is free to leave at any time,
but that anyone crossing the lawn will be viewed as trespassing. Would
you cross the lawn to help the child? Would helping the child violate
the parent's right?"

Fortunately, despite all of their arguments for property rights and the
rights of all people (including babies) to be left alone to make their
own decisions, 90.9% said they would cross the lawn. Of course the scary
part is the 9% who would not help. In fact, in response to the second
question, 24.1% said crossing would violate the parents rights.

This is fascinating, and I think it serves as a good example of being
under the influence of the power of the mind. Virtually everyone's first
reaction is to help the baby, yet some people are so under the control
of the thoughts in their own minds (their philosophy) that they would
refuse, or at least feel bad for "violating the parents rights" as they
followed their hearts.

In another question, more than more than 80% of respondents viewed
forcing ones way into a home to survive when caught in a deadly blizzard
as "an act of aggression," and a fourth of those said you shouldn't do
it - and so presumably risk death instead. In other words, they place a
higher value on an idea - in this case a stranger's right to not be
inconvenienced - above survival. You may not agree, but I'm suggesting
that this is mental illness, and that a healthy use of the mind serves
the purpose of life, not of ideas.

By the way, I didn't get into the details of the reasoning for people
not helping the baby or not even helping themselves. Why? Because the
whole point here is that they are not using their minds but being used
by them. I could find a reasonable argument for the contrary views -
complete with perfect logic. That is the power of the mind. It can find
the arguments it desires.

Now we arrive at the scary part for some people. If we can either use
the mind or be used by it, how can we tell the difference, and where do
we derive our decisions and actions from if not from rational thought?
This suggests a world of uncertainty. But the world is uncertain! And
our thoughts, motivations, and actions are less than perfect. So we do
our best to understand, without pretending that our present thoughts
alone can contain the truth.

Look, if you had no language and so no ideas about logic or reason, you
still would take actions to eat, to survive, to help others. Now what
would happen if you were taught twenty or thirty words, and those were
used by another person or your own mind to convince you to do something
that felt totally wrong? Isn't it possible that with only a couple dozen
words your thinking ability would still be too limited to trust
completely over your immediate intuition about what to do? And isn't it
possible that even with all the words we have now we cannot fully
understand all things through them, and that the thoughts created with
them may mislead us in any case?

I'm not suggesting that we blindly follow our feelings, but there is a
difference between an urge that comes from an unhealthy place and one
that comes from love or clear seeing of what needs to be done. Call it
conscience if you like, but we all can see and experience the difference
in motivations that we have. So we do our best to act from a healthy
place and use our minds to help us towards those goals that we see as
right. Then the power of the mind is working for us, rather than leading
us astray.

I hope this was clear enough to get you to doubt your own minds
insistence on its right to direct your life (and please take that
metaphorically), and its ability to find certainty. History is filled
with examples of great crimes perpetrated by those who were certain
their thoughts were correct. In fact, it is hard to imagine people doing
some of the horrible things they have done if they had doubted their
thinking.

 

[anart]

SOMETIMES when dealing with EGO you can NOT fight ego with niceties!

To me it seems about BALANCE. Knowing when to use the HAMMER and when to use the feather.

One technique I find helpful in this is FIRST bringing it back to myself, in other words, the mirror principle. If someone is providing what appears to be a reflection of arrogance (note I say APPEARS to be, in that this is what has drawn my attention) then where in myself am I behaving arrogantly? By working with this arrogance in myself it may be that I then THANK the other person with gratitude for showing me what I could not see on my own. THEN, if I have addressed the arrogance in myself, am I able to confront this type of behaviour for I think that by and large none of us can ALLOW arrogance to "reign supreme" in either ourselves OR others for it is in fact quite destructive and harmful to ALL concerned.

[...]

For if the work were EASY then EVERYONE would be "doing" it so somehow it seems, to me anyways, that challenges are necessary in order to not only "test our mettle" as it were, but also to gain an ever-increasing insight into perception.

My thoughts anyways.

In other words, LOOK at what your post has prompted! You didn't die nor did you get banned! Lots of replies and interaction! Is this (networking) not the purpose of this forum?! And even IF someone disagrees with you, so what? Is THAT the "end of the world?" Or is it a chance to then LEARN something, either that perhaps you were mistaken on something, which then presents, ironically, the opportunity to learn, or perhaps how to gain confidence in yourself if you were NOT mistaken?

Learning to relate is challenging too. Add to this the component of the tricky perceptions, the emotional baggage, the clear signs of this world going to hell in a hand-basket and it appears grim at the best of times!

Yet no one here can relate or learn for me, not even with the purest intent in the world.

I have a responsibility to learn. Relating on this forum is part of that responsibility.

That is how I see it anyways.

Well, Avi, I must say that you've put this really well. So, hopefully, we can look forward to more posts from you! :D

 

[TheSpoon]

So, unless a person shows clear signs of pathology, I - and all the moderators - will make a concerted effort to accommodate the many emotional issues of the forum members as long as those members are making every effort to meet us half way! Because, we do have a destination and we don't have a lot of time, so it's a good idea for everyone to put their shoulder to the wheel in every way they can so we can move this Ark where we want to come to shore!

I hadn't realised until I read this thread quite how inhibited I've become at posting. My life seems to run in phases of being overly (and disruptively) extrovert and then finding myself repressed until I eventually recover or escape the repression. My primary 2 (about 6 years old) report card said "Peter contributes liberally to class discussion". So my natural exuberance (and disruptive behaviour) was crushed out of me, only to emerge and be crushed again over and over as I move into new situations. Must learn to guard that light a little more skilfully. I wrote about it here, but I'm now appreciating the irony that despite resenting the repression that I experienced, I find myself tempering my son's own "over" exuberance.

So I appreciate this forum making a move to perhaps becoming less critical. That's not to say that I think the previous approach is wrong. I've really been brought face to face with how much of my online interaction is an attempt to 'feed'. My early posts to CassChat were totally lacking in external consideration and although I fumed about being knocked back by the moderator at the time, I do see how that was ultimately helpful in retrospect (thanks Richard and later Anart!).

I downloaded the MP3s for the Eíriú-Eolas Breathing Program sometime ago, but I've been resistant to listening to them. I've also been resistant to thanking Laura for posting session transcripts, even though I really appreciate reading them. I guess I have mixed feelings about this whole site. It's unique in my life for being apparently helpful but with zero 'feel good' factor, so I have ambivalent feelings about what's happening here. I don't feel at all certain that the ultimate destination of this group is STO. Sorry, but I just don't have a gut feeling about it. In some regards I suppose scepticism is healthy, but recently (eg with the breathing), I've felt that my doubts are preventing me from "getting with the program".

As far as "thanking" goes, I also don't want to jump on a sycophantic band wagon (an attitude I'm still considering - not sure where it's coming from). Posts that just consist of thanking Laura seem to be empty of objective information and somewhat pointless (as regards The Work), but perhaps the point is more about energy exchange than objectivity.

I'm starting to take onboard the need for energy exchange as discussed in Session 20090815. I've noticed in my Reiki practice that clients seem to get more out of sessions where they've paid compared to sessions that I've done for free, so I'm coming around to the idea, although I still feel uncomfortable with the whole issue of money in a spiritual context.

So thank you Laura and the team for all your work.

 

[Oxajil]

Hi TheSpoon,

I downloaded the MP3s for the Eíriú-Eolas Breathing Program sometime ago, but I've been resistant to listening to them. I've also been resistant to thanking Laura for posting session transcripts, even though I really appreciate reading them. I guess I have mixed feelings about this whole site. It's unique in my life for being apparently helpful but with zero 'feel good' factor, so I have ambivalent feelings about what's happening here. I don't feel at all certain that the ultimate destination of this group is STO. Sorry, but I just don't have a gut feeling about it. In some regards I suppose scepticism is healthy, but recently (eg with the breathing), I've felt that my doubts are preventing me from "getting with the program".

Where do you think these doubts and mixed feelings are coming from? Zero feel good factor, hmm are you eating healthy? Are you still reading related material on a daily basis?
I think having doubts is a good thing, but having faith is also, I think, necessary. And I think faith comes from knowledge, so if you do some reading maybe on how these breathing techniques can aid you, you might have more faith in the program. Or read how the program effects others etc.

As far as "thanking" goes, I also don't want to jump on a sycophantic band wagon (an attitude I'm still considering - not sure where it's coming from). Posts that just consist of thanking Laura seem to be empty of objective information and somewhat pointless (as regards The Work), but perhaps the point is more about energy exchange than objectivity.

I don't think they are empty. I think it makes an exchange of energy possible as you said. I have observed that if I don't do such things, I feel something is ''locked'' and wants to get out. And many times one can let such emotions/thoughts/energy etc. out through words. Osit.

 

[vinny]

I downloaded the MP3s for the Eíriú-Eolas Breathing Program sometime ago, but I've been resistant to listening to them. I've also been resistant to thanking Laura for posting session transcripts, even though I really appreciate reading them. I guess I have mixed feelings about this whole site. It's unique in my life for being apparently helpful but with zero 'feel good' factor, so I have ambivalent feelings about what's happening here. I don't feel at all certain that the ultimate destination of this group is STO. Sorry, but I just don't have a gut feeling about it. In some regards I suppose scepticism is healthy, but recently (eg with the breathing), I've felt that my doubts are preventing me from "getting with the program".

As far as "thanking" goes, I also don't want to jump on a sycophantic band wagon (an attitude I'm still considering - not sure where it's coming from). Posts that just consist of thanking Laura seem to be empty of objective information and somewhat pointless (as regards The Work), but perhaps the point is more about energy exchange than objectivity.

I'm starting to take onboard the need for energy exchange as discussed in Session 20090815. I've noticed in my Reiki practice that clients seem to get more out of sessions where they've paid compared to sessions that I've done for free, so I'm coming around to the idea, although I still feel uncomfortable with the whole issue of money in a spiritual context.

So thank you Laura and the team for all your work.

Interesting what you say about the lack of 'feel good' factor, and also picking up on the 'energy exchange' or 'energy re-balance' idea - I think the two are linked.

I guess there are two types of 'feel good' response we can get - either something that feeds our narcissism (predator's mind... or whatever), or something that feeds our 'soul', for want of a better way to express it.

So, into the first category would go all kinds of pursuit of 3D pleasures, and feeding off other people.

And into the second category, I would put something else, kinda the opposite, which I'm not sure how to describe - maybe it is something to do with 'soul questing', and also re-balancing energy that you have received by benefiting from others' work, with your own input of effort, and committing/aligning yourself with something 'more'.

From personal experience, when you re-connect, with your own effort, back into something that is not 'for you' but is more aligned, how can I put this?, with your 'higher self', then it seems to connect to a whole new energy source, and maybe I wouldn't describe it as 'feel good' (sounds too warm and fuzzy), it seems to involve a certain 'joy' of learning, growth, and better alignment (convergence?) with deeply held values and search for the Truth.

Now, for me this has involved dismantling a lot of narcissistic programs, whereby all my human interactions were basically 'all about me', and once I was able to start breaking down that process I found I could put energy into the forum here in a more appropriate way, and this started to connect with that 'soul questing' aim/alignment. So... perhaps you have got to a point where you are able to stop some of the normal narcissistic traits, ie: reduce your feeding on other people. At this point 'it' feels bad (because the predator is hungry!) but maybe haven't broached another barrier, whereby you've found an appropriate way to re-apply/re-connect that energy back into something? You'll see that, since the start of the breathing program here, the interaction between readers has kinda skyrocketed, and lots of useful insights, and more balanced feedback is being shared - people are putting their own energy back in and 'redressing the balance'. Perhaps you have some communication blockage, to do with the stuff you described, which is getting in the way? some mental programs that kick in and complicate things?

 

[Laura]

I've really been brought face to face with how much of my online interaction is an attempt to 'feed'. My early posts to CassChat were totally lacking in external consideration and although I fumed about being knocked back by the moderator at the time, I do see how that was ultimately helpful in retrospect (thanks Richard and later Anart!).

I downloaded the MP3s for the Eíriú-Eolas Breathing Program sometime ago, but I've been resistant to listening to them. I've also been resistant to thanking Laura for posting session transcripts, even though I really appreciate reading them. I guess I have mixed feelings about this whole site. It's unique in my life for being apparently helpful but with zero 'feel good' factor, so I have ambivalent feelings about what's happening here. I don't feel at all certain that the ultimate destination of this group is STO. Sorry, but I just don't have a gut feeling about it. In some regards I suppose scepticism is healthy, but recently (eg with the breathing), I've felt that my doubts are preventing me from "getting with the program".

I think it will do you a lot of good to read and re-read the following...

A recent imaging study by psychologist Drew Westen and his colleagues at Emory University provides firm support for the existence of emotional reasoning. Just prior to the 2004 Bush-Kerry presidential elections, two groups of subjects were recruited - fifteen ardent Democrats and fifteen ardent Republicans. Each was presented with conflicting and seemingly damaging statements about their candidate, as well as about more neutral targets such as actor Tom Hanks (who, it appears, is a likable guy for people of all political persuasions). Unsurprisingly, when the participants were asked to draw a logical conclusion about a candidate from the other - "wrong" - political party, the participants found a way to arrive at a conclusion that made the candidate look bad, even though logic should have mitigated the particular circumstances and allowed them to reach a different conclusion. Here's where it gets interesting.

When this "emote control" began to occur, parts of the brain normally involved in reasoning were not activated. Instead, a constellation of activations occurred in the same areas of the brain where punishment, pain, and negative emotions are experienced (that is, in the left insula, lateral frontal cortex, and ventromedial prefrontal cortex). Once a way was found to ignore information that could not be rationally discounted, the neural punishment areas turned off, and the participant received a blast of activation in the circuits involving rewards - akin to the high an addict receives when getting his fix.

In essence, the participants were not about to let facts get in the way of their hot-button decision making and quick buzz of reward. "None of the circuits involved in conscious reasoning were particularly engaged," says Westen. "Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones." {...}

Ultimately, Westen and his colleagues believe that "emotionally biased reasoning leads to the 'stamping in' or reinforcement of a defensive belief, associationg the participant's 'revisionist' account of the data with positive emotion or relief and elimination of distress. 'The result is that partisan beliefs are calcified, and the person can learn very little from new data,'" Westen says. Westen's remarkable study showed that neural information processing related to what he terms "motivated reasoning" ... appears to be qualitatively different from reasoning when a person has no strong emotional stake in the conclusions to be reached.

The study is thus the first to describe the neural processes that underlie political judgment and decision making, as well as to describe processes involving emote control, psychological defense, confirmatory bias, and some forms of cognitive dissonance. The significance of these findings ranges beyond the study of politics: "Everyone from executives and judges to scientists and politicians may reason to emotionally biased judgments when they have a vested interest in how to interpret 'the facts,'" according to Westen.

And maybe read and re-read the entire post from which it is extracted:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13599.msg101740#msg101740

 

[TheSpoon]

Where do you think these doubts and mixed feelings are coming from? Zero feel good factor, hmm are you eating healthy? Are you still reading related material on a daily basis?

There are other areas of my life that 'feel good', so I don't think my diet is a major concern here, although obviously it will be a contributing factor. I think Nomad makes a good point that I've been very much used to a 'feeding' type of feel-good and that I'm having trouble adjusting to something a little more aligned with true spiritual growth.

I'm currently reading Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn. I don't know if that would be considered 'related material', but it does mention that both punishment (especially 'Time Out') and reward styles of parenting harm a child's moral compass, which would seem to aid ponerization.

I think having doubts is a good thing, but having faith is also, I think, necessary. And I think faith comes from knowledge, so if you do some reading maybe on how these breathing techniques can aid you, you might have more faith in the program. Or read how the program effects others etc.

Thanks Oxajil. I think I'll get started on it and see what the effects are - perhaps gain faith from my own experience.

Now, for me this has involved dismantling a lot of narcissistic programs, whereby all my human interactions were basically 'all about me', and once I was able to start breaking down that process I found I could put energy into the forum here in a more appropriate way, and this started to connect with that 'soul questing' aim/alignment. So... perhaps you have got to a point where you are able to stop some of the normal narcissistic traits, ie: reduce your feeding on other people. At this point 'it' feels bad (because the predator is hungry!) but maybe haven't broached another barrier, whereby you've found an appropriate way to re-apply/re-connect that energy back into something? You'll see that, since the start of the breathing program here, the interaction between readers has kinda skyrocketed, and lots of useful insights, and more balanced feedback is being shared - people are putting their own energy back in and 'redressing the balance'. Perhaps you have some communication blockage, to do with the stuff you described, which is getting in the way? some mental programs that kick in and complicate things?

Thanks Nomad, that's helpful. Communication blockage, and Mercury goes retrograde just in time for me to reach Jedi, sheesh!

A recent imaging study by psychologist Drew Westen and his colleagues at Emory University provides firm support for the existence of emotional reasoning.

And maybe read and re-read the entire post from which it is extracted:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13599.msg101740#msg101740

I did read and re-read both postings and yes, I'll put my hand up to emotional reasoning here. There were certainly a lot of 'feel's in my posting which you highlighted. I also followed your postings back to the Nature of Cults thread where this Gurdjieff quote probably addresses where I am - lacking trust:

They are fools and they already know it, that is to say, they realized it at one time. For this reason they came to learn. But they forget all about this the next moment; they are already bringing into the work their own paltry and subjective attitude; they begin to pass judgment on me and on everyone else as though they were able to pass judgment on anything. And this is immediately reflected in their attitude towards the ideas and towards what I say. Already 'they accept one thing' and 'they do not accept another thing'; with one thing they agree, with another they disagree; they trust me in one thing, in another thing they do not trust me.

"And the most amusing part is that they imagine they are able 'to work' under such conditions, that is, without trusting me in everything and without accepting everything. In actual fact this is absolutely impossible. By not accepting something or mistrusting something they immediately invent something of their own in its place. 'Gagging' begins —new theories and new explanations which have nothing in common either with the work or with what I have said. Then they begin to find faults and inaccuracies in everything that I say or do and in everything that others say or do. From this moment I now begin to speak of things about which I have no knowledge and even of things of which I have no conception, but which they know and understand much better than I do; all the other members of the group are fools, idiots. And so on, and so on, like a barrel organ.

When a man says something on these lines I already know all he will say later on. And you also will know by the consequences. And it is amusing that people can see this in relation to others. But when they themselves do crazy things they at once cease to see it in relation to themselves. This is a law. It is difficult to climb the hill but very easy to slide down it. They even feel no embarrassment in talking in such a manner either with me or with other people. And chiefly they think that this can be combined with some kind of 'work.' They do not even want to understand that when a man reaches this notch his little song has been sung.

...so I've been mulling this over for an hour or so trying to get to the bottom line. Which seems to be that while I thought I could approach this material with discernment, in a sense cherry picking the things that I found helpful and leaving the things that didn't resonate, instead I find myself blocked and unable to move forward, and what Gurdjieff has said above seems to hit the nail on the head.

Something I'm having trouble getting past is the fighting...and the money. It seems like such STS activity. And I'm sorry to bring it up, but the raffle thing is bothering me. Interestingly, doing a (largely fruitless) search for what actually went on there brought me to the Joe's Bomb thread which contained this reference to Illion's Darkness Over Tibet which went onto my Amazon wish list just yesterday:

I've just read Illion's Darkness Over Tibet and was struck by his description of spiritual life as a fight - I have discovered in myself yet another layer of new age programming, but your words have illuminated the nature of the fight very clearly: identify the foreign installation and fight it. Therefore a major part of the Work is to study the nature of the predator's mind. Trying to integrate or harmonise it doesn't work.

And that's something that I've been sitting between two stools over for sometime now, the question of acceptance and integration vs identification and fighting. Both within oneself, and between others eg Laura and Vincent Bridges.

I've read Judge Haggerty's decision several times and have extracted a few general principles from it that I would like some feedback on. In particular, it seems to me that I would have a very good case suing Vinnie Bridges, Stormbear Williams, and others by the terms defined for what is or is not protected opinion in this decision. And, of course, when we get our payout from Pepin (who has to reimburse us for our legal expenses!), I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile filing suit. After all, we have attys who know us, know our situation so all we would have to do would be to hand over all the tons of files of the Vinnie Defamation and Slander project we've been collecting over the years. Since our corporation is in California, we would naturally file suit there.

What do ya'll think?

It's difficult because on the one hand mud sticks. On the other hand one could end up spending all one's time and energy(money) brushing off mud and preventing people from throwing it.

I knew we needed to leave without attracting attention to the fact we were leaving. You could even say that the house raffle was partly a front - kind of like the "singing contest" front in the movie "The Sound of Music." In fact, the analogy is not too far off. There we were, with the DoD breathing down Ark's neck, wanting to suck him deeper into their secret projects the same way von Trapp was expected to "report for duty" to the Nazis.

What really happened there? Specifically was the winner (if there was a winner) a member of the Perseus Foundation and if the amount raised was only $14.5K then was the raffle called off and the money returned? Apologies if this story has been told before, I wasn't able to find it.

 

[Bluestar]

As far as "thanking" goes, I also don't want to jump on a sycophantic band wagon (an attitude I'm still considering - not sure where it's coming from). Posts that just consist of thanking Laura seem to be empty of objective information and somewhat pointless (as regards The Work), but perhaps the point is more about energy exchange than objectivity.

For me gratitude is the key code that I live by. It is part of "Honor, respect and Gratitude" that I feel is essential for my walk in this life. Heart felt and always given. Even to those that create direct disturbances for me cause I see them as great teachers of "how not to be". Though I shy from confrontation at times, I find myself internally thanking them, even in my anger. Is this good for me? Not sure but it seems to work cause the anger soon dissipates. On a positive note, each morning I awake, walk my dogs and say thank you to the sun, earth and to Divine Cosmic Mind for the beautiful day, the opportunity to become a better person today then I was yesterday and for the lessons that will bestowed on me.

As in regards to networking and being part of this group, it brings to mind a story my husband told me early in our relationship (he is also the one who taught me about the "how not to be" teachers & the "give aways").

This is a short version of what I was told.

A Person passed on through death to the other side. He came upon a guide and the guide asked him if he had any questions? The man asked "Can you show me heaven?" The guide said I will show you two things. The first place he took the man was a great dining hall. All the people in the room were at the tables filled with platters of food. The thing he noticed next was that everyone had long spoons where their hands should have been. Everyone was arguing and frustrated cause they could not feed themselves and were instead throwing food all around in their dispair. The man thought "wow, this is terrible". The guide then took him to another place and it was exactly the same type of room. Platters of food on long tables with people sitting around with long spoons on their arms instead of hands. Only this time the people were feeding each other. Having good conversation and were all happy. The man thought to himself "wow, this is wonderful." The guide then explained that this is what heaven is and the other place was hell. The choice is yours!

A very heart felt Thank You to all.

 

[vinny]

I did read and re-read both postings and yes, I'll put my hand up to emotional reasoning here. There were certainly a lot of 'feel's in my posting which you highlighted. I also followed your postings back to the Nature of Cults thread where this Gurdjieff quote probably addresses where I am - lacking trust:

[snip]

...so I've been mulling this over for an hour or so trying to get to the bottom line. Which seems to be that while I thought I could approach this material with discernment, in a sense cherry picking the things that I found helpful and leaving the things that didn't resonate, instead I find myself blocked and unable to move forward, and what Gurdjieff has said above seems to hit the nail on the head.

The more and more I learn about the 'narcissistic family' dynamic, and the pretty much universal damage people seem to be carrying around, it seems that one of the biggest wounds is this lack of trust in the universe. Because, at a young age, there was some failure to provide for our basic psychological/emotional needs, this kinda manifests into a really deep seated insecurity about one's 'place in the universe', and a bit of black hole where there ought to be a certain trust in the universe to provide whatever will be needed. I think this can be a serious blockage for many people, myself included, because until one can 'open up' in a certain way, then certain creative paths just can't seem to happen.

The problem is compounded by the (psychologically) toxic environment in which we have to live, which means that that trust in things never has a chance to heal, always one has to be on one's guard, and we are surrounded by pathological behaviour on all sides, and 'opening up' is a really bad idea, because it opens you up to attack. It is not conducive to psychological/emotional healing.

Well, partly, the purpose of this forum is to provide a relatively 'safe' place, where that pathological behaviour is kept at the door, and so we can start to explore our more vulnerable side without fear of being anihilated. But, that goes against all our very strong learned 'primitive defense mechanisms'. And once you can start to see that process happening, some concrete result, that in itself means you'll get a little bit of trust in the process - and there is also the flip side that to do something which gets a result that gives you trust, you first have to commit something of yourself, some energy, whatever. So, it's a bit of a catch-22 that can only be unwound to start with in tiny progressive amounts, with initially small, but gradually larger steps of faith into the 'unknown'. I think it has to be an incremental process like this, and there is no way to shortcut it. Hope that made some sense.

 

[Laura]

What really happened there? Specifically was the winner (if there was a winner) a member of the Perseus Foundation and if the amount raised was only $14.5K then was the raffle called off and the money returned? Apologies if this story has been told before, I wasn't able to find it.

It's been told before, several places on this forum.

There was a winner who ended up NOT taking the house. It was NOT a member of the foundation. That person is a private individual who was harassed mercilessly by Vinnie and gang and finally had to change their phone number. Ark and I put up the funds (by borrowing on our credit cards) to make up the difference), left the funds and the arrangements in the hands of a neighbor and an atty, the idea being they would check each other's greed. What we did NOT expect was for them to join forces in greed, to intimidate the winner into giving up her rights, to then conspire to sell the house at twice the amount and try to divide and pocket the funds. (We had left a power of atty with the atty, so he could basically do whatever he wanted.)

Since there are several individuals involved in this fiasco - one of them totally innocent - and the other two guilty, but one of them not being someone I would want to tangle with in court due to his connections, I have considered it the price I pay for my stupidity, trusting the wrong people, to take the flak.

The fact is, everything Vinnie has written about that whole affair has been so twisted and distorted and also embellishes by a HOST of lies, that it really isn't worth my time.

You complain about "fighting" yet you do not clearly see that STOPPING fighting by stopping the defamatory attacks dead in the water is what I have aimed at. I found out that you can't stop a pathological person from lying no matter how many time, and how many ways, you address them. (Just search the forum for "Vinnie" or "Bridges" or "Jay" or "Weidner" and you'll learn a LOT). In the end, the only thing that stops a psychopath in his tracks is a bigger psychopath, i.e. the legal system.

As I pointed out in the Pepin thread, Vinnie and gang were involved in that. From what I understand from the reports on the GLP gang, they even went so far as to make their ridiculous accusations to the judge himself. The judge undertook to make a thorough investigation and made it clear in his decision that he had done so, and found no ground for their accusations.

If this issue still bothers you after all this time, if after all this time interacting on this forum, you can't make a decision about this, if, after all the reams of writing I have been forced to do over this issue, then there's nothing else I can say.

In fact, the very fact that you bring this up this way affects me rather emotionally. Which vein do you want me to open for you?

 

[TheSpoon]

It does Nomad, thank you.

I'll give the breathing a go and see what comes of that.

Regards,
The Spoon

 

[TheSpoon]

If this issue still bothers you after all this time, if after all this time interacting on this forum, you can't make a decision about this, if, after all the reams of writing I have been forced to do over this issue, then there's nothing else I can say.

I woudn't say it was a case of it bothering me "all this time", it actually came up last week when I read this posting which lead to a search for "Anonymous Coward 359752" and associated website that was neither interesting nor helpful.

As I said, I did search the forum about the issue (specifically for the word 'raffle' in all postings by Laura) before asking about it and got 7 hits, the one I quoted was the only one that seemed relevant ie not a quote of someone else's ranting.

In fact, the very fact that you bring this up this way affects me rather emotionally. Which vein do you want me to open for you?

I was looking for clarity and a resolution to my blockage, not blood. I'm sorry if I upset you.

 

[slowone]

Dear Slowone:

I can certainly relate to that! The "I don't necessarily agree" part anyways.

As far as confrontation, well, I am perhaps more confrontational. ;)

Yet what is there to gain, or learn, if everyone is "the same"? I mean, yes, at some level of consciousness PERHAPS we are all "the same" but in terms of life, experience, etc, do we not each have a unique contribution to make?

And so if you withhold your contribution, are you really serving yourself OR others?

"a scared cow that you just can't overcome and then be banned! "

A SCARED cow?! LOL. But then I believe you MEANT to say a SACRED cow?

Hee, Hee :D , You made me laugh about this. I think both apply to me exactly, I should have used both!

I have these fears too! AND sacred moo-moos! And it may happen, (being banned) I don't know, but it is not my INTENT for this to happen! I think some latitude has to be allowed for the process of learning, for it IS a process, and not all of us are at the same "point" of development in TERMS of that process. Nor should we be!

One thing however which stands out, for me as much as for you, is at what point do you begin to TRUST life and to trust your knowledge and that if your heart really is truly in the right place and if YOU DO THE WORK required, then the worse that can happen is you lose your ILLUSIONS about life! But strange paradox, not so? For is it not these very illusions we wish to be FREE from in the first place?

I think you are spot on. It is such an unquantifiable process, how to know if you are doing "The Work, or just dreaming you are doing "The work"? How to trust that you will know?

Learning can be a frightening affair because the mind always seems to think it will somehow be annihilated. Or that we will "lose" our so-called identities, but then if we are identifying with the mind in the first place, rather than using it as a tool as it is meant to be, then what is the real fear we are talking about? Is fear in some way not also an illusion? And that is not to say there are not things to fear? For there are! But in a healthy way in the sense of "I fear if I do not LEARN then I am a goner!"

Not to fear this forum which as far as I understand is designed to HELP not only you but ALL who really wish to PARTAKE.

In other words, LOOK at what your post has prompted! You didn't die nor did you get banned! Lots of replies and interaction! Is this (networking) not the purpose of this forum?! And even IF someone disagrees with you, so what? Is THAT the "end of the world?" Or is it a chance to then LEARN something, either that perhaps you were mistaken on something, which then presents, ironically, the opportunity to learn, or perhaps how to gain confidence in yourself if you were NOT mistaken?

Thank you for posting, Slowone.

Thank you, you and everyone else here have made me realise that it is the Predators mind in me, cowering in the corner of my being that stopped me from braving a few toe in the water critical posts. It was the predator that wished me to not move foward, not trust, not risk. You are right when you say so what ? for me I had to see the problem laid out in front of me here to be able to step back enough to see that it's the only way forward. More involvement, more risk, more exposure if you like.
Over the gate of self preservation and into the fray!

I also agree that sometimes you do need the hammer not the feather, if the gain were not so valuable, the price to pay would not be so high either.

:)

Sincerely,

Avi


PS - I was going to tease you about your name but don't mean to come off "too familiar" since I myself have been quite quiet.

Fwiw I have wanted to change my forum name in the last couple of weeks. I kind of lumbered myself with it now. But even that was a kind of submissive programme in me if you like. Submissive in as much as I saw so much here on the forum that I couldn't keep up with that I thought I'd lay my cards down immediately and announce upfront that I wouldn't be leading the way in any capacity! :(

PPS - I think that the real fear to fear is the fear! It is constrictive, yes?

PPPS - One of the best remedies for fear however IS laughter!

I would appreciate some help from fellow Forum members with a concern I have had for sometime about posting on the forum.

I would like to give some background. I hope I am articulate enough to explain clearly. Sometimes on the forum as happens I am sure to most people I see a posting or thread where I don't necessarily agree with what someone has said.

It most often is not factual threads regarding researchable data, but emotional threads,or situation threads. Most often it won't be the original posting but perhaps the tone or the way someone has offered advice that I think is harsh or maybe missing the point. They may not necessarily be so but that's how it appears to me.

Now here's my point, I don't post what I want to say instinctively if it happens to be negative. This leaves me denying the other poster what may have been (at least sometimes) another angle they may not have considered and which they have every right to challenge if they disagree, or to discuss further. But also is preventing me from airing on the Forum my "negative" side which I would benefit I am sure immensely from bringing out of the cloudy world of instinct and into the light of a more critical thinking process. I.e having to say why I felt as I did about the posting or considering which emotions I was having triggered by the post that I may be unaware of.

I have been brought up as many people have to basically "play nice". My parents were very strict, we were smacked and shouted at, but that just seemed to be the norm, but its left me afraid of confrontation. I am especially afraid of confrontation here on the forum. I imagine in my head how painful it must be to join the forum and then reach a scared cow that you just can't overcome and then be banned! To come so far and then have such a blindspot that you can't continue worries me. But never overcoming this inability on the Forum worries me more because I believe it is leaving me vulnerable to gaps in my awareness of the processes in myself as a machine.

What happened to Pepperfritz as Queenvee and also obviously her tragic death has given me the push to post this. So thank you PF, your good work carries on.

I would really appreciate some feedback or advice.

[/quote]

 

[henry]

...so I've been mulling this over for an hour or so trying to get to the bottom line. Which seems to be that while I thought I could approach this material with discernment, in a sense cherry picking the things that I found helpful and leaving the things that didn't resonate, instead I find myself blocked and unable to move forward, and what Gurdjieff has said above seems to hit the nail on the head.

Something I'm having trouble getting past is the fighting...and the money. It seems like such STS activity. And I'm sorry to bring it up, but the raffle thing is bothering me.

The passage I put in bold seems the crux of the matter for you: Your equating discernment with cherry picking. There is a wealth of information in the forum and on the various Cass sites, there is the consistent practical application of everything discussed here by Laura and Ark for years, there is the network which has grown and the very obvious development of individuals who have been posting on the forum, doing the breathing programme, in other words, there is overwhelming data that the process being implemented here actually works.

But you think that you can pick and choose as you wish, as if you are able to 'discern' was is correct and what isn't.

Moreover, if you have followed this work for any length of time, you would be able to see that our ideas and practice develops and grows as we all develop and grow. We are not dogmatists. We do not think our ideas are set in stone, and we have shown that through our actions.

All of this is right there, staring you in the face, while you, yourself, feel you are stuck.

Can you SEE it?

 

[Laura]

In fact, the very fact that you bring this up this way affects me rather emotionally. Which vein do you want me to open for you?

I was looking for clarity and a resolution to my blockage, not blood. I'm sorry if I upset you.

Let me give you a little background here.

Remember me? The one who takes the brunt of EVERYTHING, inside and outside this forum for YEARS. I have protected members, been willing to go to jail to protect their privacy, stood accused of all kinds of foul things because I will not ask people who are associated with us and who could lose their jobs or the respect of their professional colleagues if they went public about their association, to speak on my behalf.

What I learned this past year is that there is a very human limit to my endurance. Even if my mind thinks it can take anything and everything, my body says "no."

I am just recovering from the past 15 years of the effects of carrying this burden more or less silently, giving everyone else space to sound off, get it off their chest, be rude, obnoxious, internally considering and seldom externally considering, dumping on me, and then thanking me so nicely for being so understanding and patient and loving.

Well, I AM understanding and patient and loving just by nature, and that isn't going to change. But what HAS to change is me always carrying the burden of doing the understanding, being patient, and loving while other people aren't really putting their all into practicing the same in my direction.

After all these years, most of the people on this forum still only think about themselves, their own issues, programs, lives, and very little about anything else. It's a "lifestyle": "I'll "do my little part" and pat myself on the back for being a good recycler, or sharer of information, or nice person that other people can look up to."

And after all these years, it hurts to think that no one has taken the example I have tried to set and applied it to themselves in respect of me.

As Gurdjieff said about external considering:

"Right external considering is very important in the work. It often happens that people who understand very well the necessity of external considering in life do not understand the necessity of external considering in the work; they decide that just because they are in the work they have the right not to consider. Whereas in reality, in the work, that is, for a man's own successful work, ten times more external considering is necessary than in life, because only external considering on his part shows his valuation of the work and his understanding of the work; and success in the work is always proportional to the valuation and understanding of it."

How do you think YOUR words affected ME???

It's not wrong to speak about anything. What is important is how you speak it. And how you speak it is determined by external considering and NOT internal considering. Were you trying to put yourself in anyone else's shoes? Like mine, for instance?

It is definitely not the time to beat up on me. Laura has had enough of that for a 100 lifetimes, so I don't need it here from forum members. And neither does anybody else.

I don't need mindless acquiescence, I simply need the very thing that I am trying to example for all of you, external considering.

See?

So, how's that for an emotional reaction?