Alex Jones - COINTELPRO? Fascist Tool?
- Thread starter Ennio
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Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
This was forwarded to the entire list of 911 researchers by "Comnlawnet" and was, apparently, a post to the Roginsky e-group:
Again, this made me think that some "help" in understanding what he was going to be dealing with might be in order.
This was forwarded to the entire list of 911 researchers by "Comnlawnet" and was, apparently, a post to the Roginsky e-group:
Since, at this point, the only thing I knew about Holmgren was that he had written some very astute pieces and that Joe Quinn had quoted him in our own 911 book, I was offended on Holmgren's behalf by the above "ad hominem" attack on him.
Again, this made me think that some "help" in understanding what he was going to be dealing with might be in order.
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
I figured that later on, I would go and check it out...
Needless to say, I didn't have time to follow the debate since I really didn't even have the time to follow all of this discussion... however, I was glad to see that someone was getting it organized and I was keeping my fingers crossed for Holmgren to hold up well under what I could see coming: pathologically altered material.
I figured that later on, I would go and check it out...
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
Anyway, the above Bill Douglas post prompted this response:
Apparently the above prompted the posting of the following:
It was clear that the lines were being drawn between those who saw Israeli involvment in 911 and those who did not, either because they were brainwashed, blind, or "on the job."
Anyway, the above Bill Douglas post prompted this response:
Yeah, kinda the same feeling I had. I was beginning to get a sinking feeling in my stomach about the state of 911 research and Truth...
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
Next, Mark Ferran (Roginsky's pal) checked in with a post. It looks like it came to me exclusively, but it could have had a whole slew of BCCs. Anyway, it was a full-bore attack on Prof. Steven Jones. Woah!
Next, Mark Ferran (Roginsky's pal) checked in with a post. It looks like it came to me exclusively, but it could have had a whole slew of BCCs. Anyway, it was a full-bore attack on Prof. Steven Jones. Woah!
Send reply to: "Mark Ferran" <mferran@nycap.rr.com>
From: "Mark Ferran" <mferran@nycap.rr.com>
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk
Subject: Fw: WTC IRON BURNS!!! updated July, 2006
Date sent: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 01:35:21 -0400
From: Mark R. Ferran BSEE scl JD mcl www.billstclair.com/ferran
Professor Jones of BYU has since acknowledged the fact that "iron burns" but limits this to only
"under certain conditions" (he specifies pure oxygen as a requirement), but has failed to
acknowledge that hot Iron is combustible (it burns and generates heat) when combined with ordinary
air, and he has not fully responded to the following observations that iron is usually sulfidated
upon exposure to the fumes from ordinary fires.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Ferran
Cc: jfetzer@d.umn.edu ; steven_jones@byu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:18 PM
Subject: WTC IRON BURNS!!!
"ABC News reported that, "the temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees
Fahrenheit, according to fire officials, who add that the fires are too deep for firefighters to get
to." http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/240406thermiteidentified.htm
The only likely source of the heat great enough to actually "melt" significant quantities of iron in
the piles (or even just raise so much of it to red-hot or to 2000F) would be chemical energy (i.e.,
"combustion" of some sort). Professor Jones assumes that all the carbonaceous "combustible" matter
in the "piles" would have burned away long before the time that the red-hot and molten iron was
discovered (weeks after the collapse of the WTC towers). Perhaps it did, by weeks after the
collapse. But Professor Jones obviously does not comprehend that the hot, red-hot and molten IRON
IS COMBUSTIBLE matter.
Here, Jones clearly missed it, when he wrote: "At these temperatures, steel will melt, and aluminum
materials from the buildings should continue to undergo exothermic oxidation reactions with
materials also entrained in the molten metal pools including metal oxides which will then keep the
pools molten and even growing for weeks despite radiative and conductive losses. ... The
government reports admit that the building fires were insufficient to melt steel beams -- then where
did the molten metal pools come from?" http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
Jones has no clue because he has conception of Steel Burning (iron oxidation).
The Truth is that: HOT STEEL WILL CONTINUE TO UNDERGO EXOTHERMIC OXIDATION REACTIONS WHILE EXPOSED TO AIR, CAUSING IRON TO INCREASE ITS TEMPERATURE UNTIL IT MELTS, FORMING POOLS OF MOLTEN IRON.
Professor Jones' comments and conjectures about the origin of the alleged molten iron found within
the three huge piles of combustible matter burning after the collapse of the WTC towers, distinctly
prove that Professor Jones is oblivious of the fact that Iron Burns.
For perspective, I found this children's educational webpage that further illustrates that
"Professor Jones" (among the "9-11 Scholars") is an incompetent ignoramus because he ignores the
scientifically provable (or disprovable) fact that Iron metal itself burns, and that when amassed in
large piles can ignite fires (and can even melt itself). The article discusses child-safe
experiments observing a very slow oxidation of iron (rusting at room temperature), but also
mentions:
"Sometimes a big load of iron in a ship can get hot. The heat can even set other materials on
fire. That's because the iron is rusting, which means it is burning very, very slowly. Iron rusts
in a chemical reaction called oxidation. That means the iron reacts with oxygen gas from the air.
Oxidation is the chemical reaction that occurs when anything burns in air. Like most oxidations,
rusting gives off heat."
http://www.highlightskids.com/Science/TryThis/h3TT1004_ironBurns.asp?subTitleID=159
Beyond the scope of this child-oriented article, it is important to understand that general rule in
chemistry that most chemical reactions (e.g., oxidation of iron) are accelerated by higher
temperatures. This is especially true of iron oxidation. This means, that the hotter iron metal
in contact with oxygen is, the faster it will oxidize (burn). For example, it is a familiar sight
at iron foundries to see hot iron rust forming instantaneously on red-hot iron beams. This hot rust
usually falls off spontaneously (because of the difference in thermal expansion properties between
iron and rust). Meaning, a hot iron beam, if combined with a large enough number of other hot iron
beams in a confined or semi insulated pile (e.g., covered with cement dust), will burn CONTINUOUSLY
until it consumes itself, (and thus will appear to have been "vaporized" to those not looking for
the rust residue). It will just thin away (and turn into rust), as illustrated by this photo of
burned and thinned I-beam metal recovered from the rubble of the WTC towers:
Ancient Wisdom about burning iron:
19th Century:
"Iron commences to 'burn' at 2500[F], while at the end of the operation in the Bessemer process,
when the temperature reaches some 3000[F], the iron burns violently, as demonstrated by examination
of the Bessemer flame with the spectro- scope. (See p. 46, Vol. II.)"
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/ncps:@field(DOCID+@lit(ABS1821-0003-230))::
Manufacturer and builder / Volume 3, Issue 6, June 1871
"At 1000C iron burns as easily as wood." http://www.learning-org.com/01.09/0073.html
Thomas Aquinas and other theologians remarked on this famous burning property of Iron:
Aquinas maintains that:
The head causes an influx of sensation and motion to all members of the body. ...omeone can
understand "to flow into" ("influere") in two ways according to the spiritual sense and mode. One
mode as principal agent: And thus it belongs to God alone to provide an influx of grace in the
members of the Church. In another mode instrumentally: And thus even the humanity of Christ is a
cause of the said influx; because as Damascene says ... as iron burns on account of the fire
conjoined to it, so were the actions of the humanity of Christ on account of the united divinity, of
which the humanity itself was an instrument. Christ, nevertheless, according to the two last
conditions of head [governance, influence] is able to be called head of the angels according to
human nature, and head of both according to divine nature; not, however, according to the first
condition [namely, sameness in nature], unless one takes what is common according to the nature of
the genus, according as man and angel agree in rational nature, and further what is common according
to analogy, according as it is common to the Son along with all creatures to receive from the
Father, as Basil says, by reason of which he is said to be the first-born of all creatures, Col.
1:15.16 http://www.unav.es/cryf/georgemaritain.html
DAMASCENUS, (lib. 3, cap. 17) wrote:
"For not according to its [the flesh's] own operation, but by the Word united to it, He
wrought divine things, the Word displaying through it His own operation. For glowing iron burns not
by possessing in a natural manner the power to burn, but by possessing this from its union with the
fire. Therefore in itself it was mortal, and on account of its personal union to the Word,
quickening." http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/concord/web/augsc-05.html
Iron smiths (Blacksmiths) modern and ancient are aware that glowing Iron Burns:
"With bellows blowing additional air through the fire, it can reach temperatures of about 3,000°
Fahrenheit. Iron burns at 2,800°, however, so the smith has to be careful to not ruin his work! .
The smith's fire contains too much oxygen to allow iron to melt; as it approaches its melting point
the iron burns instead."
http://www.osv.org/cgi-bin/CreatePDF.php?/tour/index.php?L=12&PDF=Y
Also of note: Faraday's lectures and a demonstration of iron powder burning:
http://www.fordham.edu/HALSALL/MOD/1859Faraday-forces.html ("Michael Faraday was the son of a
blacksmith, and was born at Newington Butts, near London, September 22, 1791.")
A WWII witness in Germany recounts seeing the "iron" of three Russian tanks "burn" from March 9 1945
until November 3, 1945: http://members.tripod.com/~radde/RaddesFlight.html ("The three Russian
tanks before Bresin still burned as we passed by them on the morning of 11-3, and this taught me
something surprising: iron burns.") This account suggests that the "critical mass" of iron metal
that will sustain itself burning may be quite small compared to the huge amounts of iron debris the
WTC piles. This account of prolonged iron combustion also supports the conclusion that the main
source of high heat in the piles of the WTC 1, 2 and 7, weeks and months after their collapse, was
due to burning iron in these piles. This conclusion could be readily verified or disproved through
simulation or experimentation.
The other interesting thing about "iron fire" (fast oxidation of iron) is that it creates a
"vacuum" of sorts that "sucks" oxygen to itself. Ordinary carbonaceous "fire" creates carbon
monoxide (CO) or carbon dioxide (CO2), which are gases that can take the place of consumed oxygen
(02) gas. Carbon monoxide production releases two molecules of CO gas per one O2 molecule consumed.
Thus, such a carbon fire requires a "convection" current to remove the hot carbon mon/dioxide (out
the top) to make room for more cold oxygen to be brought in (at the bottom).
By contrast, an "iron fire" converts the oxygen gas (and possibly also nitrogen gas, but that is
tangent) into a solid (rust). Thus, the burning iron metal effectively sucks atmospheric oxygen
INTO the pile of burning metal, regardless of convection currents. Convection currents are a strong
mechanism for REMOVING heat from a fire. Of course convection currents will also be present even in
a huge iron pile furnace, but a result of direct conversion of oxygen gas into a solid (rust) is
that there are weaker convection currents and that means that the heat of combustion escapes more
slowly from the metal fire furnace than from a carbonaceous fire furnace. Thus, since the heat of
combustion does not leave with the combustion products, a metal-air furnace could become much
"hotter" faster than a carbon-air furnace of the same scale (e.g., at the same oxygen demand
level).
Theoretically, there is no limit upon the temperature that such a large metal-fire could attain.
It could, in theory, attain a temperature high enough to not only melt iron, but also to boil
(vaporize) iron, but not at the same location at the same time. (You cannot maintain solid, liquid,
and gaseous iron at the same location, because "melting" and "vaporization" occur at greatly
different temperatures). The difficulty with that however is that the molten (burning) iron would
tend to settle into a pool, having a smaller surface area (on its top surface only), thus reducing
its rate of oxidation.
It has also been suggested that Sulfur especially from tons of decomposing Gypsum (a Sulfur ore
used in sheetrock walls and partitions in offices and homes) in the piles accelerated the oxidation
or melting of the iron burning in the piles. "Sulfur is widely distributed in nature. It is found
in many minerals and ores, e.g., iron pyrites, galena, cinnabar, zinc blende, gypsum..."
http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Sulpher
"Dust and debris deposits associated with the September 11, 2001, terrorist attack on the
World Trade Center have left a distinct fingerprint on the sedimentary record in New York Harbor,
scientists have found. Their results appear in the January 21, 2003, issue of the journal EOS, a
publication of the American Geophysical Union. ... The high levels of calcium, strontium, and sulfur
concentrations found in the near-surface sediments ..., are consistent with presence of gypsum as a
parent material. Gypsum is extensively used as drywall in building construction."
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-01/nsf-sfg011603.php
The "Sulfides" produced when sulfer dioxide (e.g., from decomposed Gypsum) contacts burning iron
have been identified as an agent that supposedly accellerated the "deterioration" of the steel in
the burning WTC piles, on a macromolecular level.
"A section of an A36 wide flange beam retrieved from the collapsed World Trade Center Building 7
was examined to determine changes in the steel microstructure ... Rapid deterioration of the
steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the
presence of sulfur. The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the
temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in
this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000°C, forming the eutectic liquid ...."
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html
"Gypsum does not have a true melting point, as it decomposes under heat before it can melt"
http://www.gp.com/build/PageViewer.aspx?repository=bp&elementid=3358 With high heat, Gyspum
decomposes and releases Sulfur Dioxide (SO2) gas, which is a weak oxidizer that can rapidly transfer
both its sulfur and oxygen to the exposed iron surfaces in the piles. "Many metals, including
zinc, aluminum, cesium, and iron, incandesce and/or ignite in unheated sulfur dioxide."
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/mhmi/mmg116.html
"In some cases, SO2 behaves as both a reducing and oxidizing agent (metals such as tin, iron and
magnesium burn in SO2 to form mixed sulfides and oxides)."
http://www.intox.org/databank/documents/chemical/sulfdiox/cie714.htm
and http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/EHSRM/HAZCOM/MSDS/sulfurdioxide.pdf
In other words, Sulfur Dioxide gas (e.g., from decomposing Gypsum wallboard) spontaneously reacts
(combines) with iron metal (cold or hot), turning it into iron sulfides and iron oxides (i.e.
burning the iron). The sulfides introduced into iron (sulfidation) by exposure of iron to Sulfur
Dioxide gas have been used by humans (blacksmiths) for hundreds if not thousands of years, and have
been understood in chemical terms for centuries, but apparently, such chemistry is not understood by
BYU Professor Jones.
"The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at
which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of
the steel beam approached ~1000°C by a process similar to making a "blacksmith's weld" in a hand
forge. (Barnett, 2001)"
For hundreds of years, Blacksmiths took advantage of this well-known property of sulfur dioxide by
"welding" iron parts together over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of
iron at its surface.
Sulfur Dioxide gas can be released by the burning of ANY ORGANIC substance, including wood, paper,
flesh, fabrics, and especially plastics (carpets), and rubber (rubber is "vulcanized" by adding
sulfur to it). Sulfur Dioxide gas, has a distinct impact on the nose, and is a respiratory
irritant, because it forms sulfurous acid when it combines with water or moisture in the human body.
Sulfur Dioxide can be further oxidized to form sulfuric acid (when added to water). High
concentrations of Sulfurous fumes emanating from the piles at Ground Zero have been documented, and
have been identified as a probable cause of respiratory ailments suffered by many rescue workers and
cleanup crews. "One of the America's top air-quality scientists test the air around Ground Zero and
tells NBC's Lisa Myers and the NBC Investigative Team he was shocked to find alarming levels of
sulfuric acid and fine particles more than three weeks after the attack. (MSNBC, October 29, 2003)"
http://www.asthmamoms.com/worldtradecenterarticles2003.htm
Professor Jones demonstrates his ignorance of the basic "Blacksmith" chemistry of
sulfidation-by-S02-from-fire with his following oblivious or dishonest statements: "Then there is
the rather mysterious sulfidation of the steel reported in this paper -- What is the origin of this
sulfur? No solid answer is given in any of the official reports. ... While gypsum in the
buildings is a source of sulfur, it is highly unlikely that this sulfur could find its way into the
structural steel in such a way as to form a eutectic. ... Thus, we find substantial evidence
supporting the current conjecture that some variation of thermite (e.g., solid aluminum powder plus
Fe2O3, with possible addition of sulfur) was used on the steel columns of the WTC Tower to weaken
the huge steel supports, not long before explosives finished the demolition job."
In addition to sulfidation of cold iron by its exposure to sulfurous (e.g., SO2) fumes, sulfidation
by an even more direct transfer of the sulfur and oxygen from Gypsum to Iron might occur where
Gypsum (dust) is in direct contact with the burning (e.g., red hot) iron.
Another's lucid rebuttal of Professor Jones' conjectures about the sulfidated iron found in the
burning piles of WTC wreckage is self-published as follows:
"The "absolutely conclusive smoking-gun PROOF" amounts to this: Prof. Jones CLAIMS to have
obtained a sample of solidified spatter from post-collapse WTC structural steel. He takes the
sample-gatherer's word that this is where it came from. He claims to have determined the sample to
be sulfur-contaminated iron. Solely from this basis he leaps to the definite conclusion that it's a
residue of thermate (thermite with sulfur and potassium permanganate additives) used to cut the
tower's columns. This is quite the leap of inductive reasoning. As we all know, the debris field of
the WTC was an oven of steel-melting intensity. All of the WTC's debris was churned together
chaotically in this pile. Steel is basically highly refined iron. The element sulfur is present in
abundance in many building materials. Drywall, for example (also known as GYPSUM board) consists
primarily of plaster, i.e. gypsum, i.e. hydrated calcium SULFATE. Churn lots of steel and gypsum
together and cook them for three weeks at temperatures sufficient to melt both and I would not be
surprised to see "sulfur-contaminated iron" turning up in samples of same. This is not to say Jones
is definitely wrong as to what produced it, just that it's ridiculously dishonest and irresponsible
to hype this as "absolutely conclusive smoking-gun PROOF" of the use of thermate. There is at least
one other completely plausible completely mundane possibility. Prof. Jones focusses on the
iron/sulfur mix as a signature of thermate, but makes no mention of aluminum oxide, which would also
most definitely be present and which he'd certainly test for and mention if it were. This is a
strange omission. Prof. Jones knows better "
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/06/17/18281125.php
For practical purposes, all this means that a huge pile of iron beams (e.g., mixed in with tons
of other materials initially burning) can itself begin to burn like huge iron logs in a pile
furnace, and there is no reason not to expect this system to reach a temperature high enough to melt
iron. Sulfur Dioxide (SO2) gas, released from burning organic materials, and/or from decomposing
Gypsum, in the burning piles will spontaneously combine (react) with cold or hot iron, adding more
heat to the iron, and adding "sulfides" to the steel and thus lowering its effective melting
temperature.
The first "molten" iron in the WTC piles was reportedly discovered WEEKS AFTER the collapse of the
WTC towers, and molten iron was reportedly found regularly during the following MONTHS during
excavations of the huge piles. The only rational explanation for this steady-state phenomenon is
IRON BURNING. "Professor Jones" is not a rational man, and thus he fails to consider the fact that
Iron Burns, and instead assumes that the reported "molten iron" was all created (by surreptitious
"Thermite") on September 11, 2001 and that all this red-hot liquid metal just stayed clumped
together on its chaotic descent down 70+ floors and then stayed in molten form until it was dug up
weeks and months later.
Further, as an aside, it is total idiocy for Jones and his associates to assume that someone intent
upon both bringing down the WTC towers and being undetected in doing so would go to the trouble of
actually "melting" some of the iron (let alone allot of it) within the iron support columns (steel
will not "melt" until reaching temperatures of nearly 3000F), rather than just heating some of them
to the much lesser temperature point at which the iron would EXPAND and DEFORM (see photos linked
below) and become worse than useless to support the enormous weight of the building. (That
temperature can be scientifically calculated given the load parameters, and was evidently equal to
or less than the core temperature of the carbonaceous office fires spanning an enormous area e.g.,
one square acre in size, on each of several floors of each WTC tower). Note: "A typical house fire
can reach 2000 degrees Fahrenheit after just five minutes of flame."
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/roundup/online/2004/1104_p4_7.pdf "THE TYPICAL HOUSE FIRE REACHES A
TEMPERATURE OF APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN HUNDRED DEGREES [Fahrenheit]"
http://www.gia.edu/newsroom/3685/broadcast_content.cfm Aluminum melts at about 1218 F. It is an
observable fact that virtually all carbonaceous-fires (e.g., bonfires, house fires, burning-paper
fires, airplane fires) are readily capable of melting aluminum. (Note: "Fire" is not synonymous
with "flame".)
When even smaller aluminum aircraft burn on the ground, the resulting fire usually "melts" their
aluminum portions, thus proving temperatures exceeding 1200 degrees Fahrenheit:
Aircraft Crash: Aluminum Fire
"The forward portion of the fusilage [sic] containing the cockpit burned, the aluminum being almost
completely consumed by the heat of the fire which ranged from 1310 degrees to 2100 degrees (F)."
http://www.nps.gov/yuch/Expanded/b24/b24.htm
These temperature estimates exceed the melting point of aluminum. See also the burning-aircraft
photos in this thoughtful rebuttal of Professor Jones' lunatic "thermite" theory.
http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/moltensteel.htm ("Air France flight 358 didn't hit a steel
building at 500 miles an hour. It didn't even burn the fuel in the wings yet it's aluminum skin
melted to the ground. It simply went off the runway and caught fire. What melted the airliner was
the contents like seats, clothing and other combustibles including chemical oxygen generators. It's
not unreasonable to conclude the airliner and contents didn't even need the contents of the building
to melt.") (unfortunately, the author of that article also mistakenly assumed that iron is
"non-combustible")
It should also be kept in mind that "aluminum ... ignites at relatively low temperature," Aluminum,
"melts at about 1,220[F] degrees. At about 1,400[F] degrees, it can automatically ignite and burst
into flames without any spark" "The formation of aluminum oxide is accompanied by the release of a
tremendous amount of heat ... temperatures can reach around 5,000 degrees."
http://www.dmanuta.com/dmm/aluminum.doc
More information about aluminum is provided here: http://www.911myths.com/WTCTHERM.pdf (although I
think he tends to oversell the role of melted aluminum in the collapse of the WTC)
In other words, why use readily DETECTIBLE "thermite" (or even "explosives") when just burning tons
of paper, plastic, rugs, aircraft-chairs, clothes, flesh, computers, (perhaps aluminum metal), and
some hydrocarbon (jet) fuel, would (and evidently did) accomplish the same result?
To bolster his nonsensical conclusions, Professor Jones says absurd and misleading things like:
"Brigham Young University physicist Professor Steven Jones told peers at a Utah meeting that, "while
almost no fire, even one ignited by jet fuel, can cause structural steel to fail."
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/240406thermiteidentified.htm
Professor Jones is an attention whore, who does not check his facts:
The essay at http://www.cagenweb.com/quarries/articles_and_books/stone_magazine/fire_trap.html by an
early American civil engineer of great repute (William Sooy Smith, 1830-1916) explains the known
weaknesses of Iron (steel) beams and columns exposed to fire. He notes that the primary mechanism
of structural failure in steel buildings is the DESTRUCTIVE FORCE generated in the steel itself when
it EXPANDS due to heating by FIRE. He describes the destruction of several steel frame buildings
due to the heat of fire, including one in New York city. In view of these examples, there is a
warning (or prophesy) by the Fire Chief of the City of New York of the eventual collapse of a very
tall steel frame building, (such as the World Trade Center buildings), due to exposure to the heat
of fire. His essay is essential reading for anyone who would express or consider an opinion about
the likelihood that a steel framed building exposed to fire would be brought down by the heat of
fire.
Excerpts:
1) "Witness the Manhattan Savings Bank building, Broadway and Bleeker street, New York, which was
destroyed a few weeks ago by the heat generated in the burning of the ... building next to it."
2) "fire ... partly destroyed the Athletic Association building in this city. ... and it is
evident that if this heat had continued but a little longer the whole structure would have
fallen."
3) "And notably at the burning of the Tribune building in Minneapolis, about three years ago,
which resulted in its entire destruction."
"There may be steel buildings in which the fireproofing has been so well done that they will pass
through an ordinary fire without such failure. But if the steel becomes even moderately heated its
stiffness will be measurably diminished, and the strength of the upright members so reduced as to
cause them to bend and yield. This is more likely to occur, as the horizontal beams and girders will
at the same time expand (unequally from the different degrees of temperature) and throw the posts
out of vertical and into buckling positions. This is the third difficulty. ... The third
difficulty, resulting from the expansion and contraction of the metals employed in the construction
of tall buildings, may be obviated by protecting these metals absolutely from any considerable
change in temperature..."
Chief Bonner, of the fire department of New York, says in reference to the destruction of the
Manhattan Bank building:
....We shall have in this city, unless the citizens of New York are warned in time, a calamity by
fire which will rend their hearts. ... The heat thrown from a large burning building of any height
is immense. ... I am prepared to declare, from my experience, that a building of brick and yellow
pine in case of fire is easier to manage, and the contents have more chance of being saved than the
modern fire-proof building. In the former structure the fire burns more slowly and has no chance to
concentrate its heat as in the iron and steel structure.
Chief Swenie, of the Chicago fire department, is quoted in the essay as follows:
"I think very much as Bonner does," said Fire Marshal Swenie to-day, when his attention was directed
to a statement of the chief of the New York fire department to the effect that the modern skyscraper
is a veritable firetrap. .... Fire in a room so filled with goods might in very short time gain
such headway as to imperil seriously the entire structure by the expansion, warping or twisting of
the iron or steel framework.
No ... building of any kind in which inflammable goods are stored should ever exceed 125 feet in
height, and might with advantage be much less. This is not because we cannot throw water high
enough. But suppose such goods are stored in a twelve-story building; a fire breaks out, say on the
sixth floor, and gets to burning furiously. The heat ascends and causes the pillars and beams to
expand. The expansion first raises all that part of the building above where it takes place. At
the same time the whole weight above continues on the expanded metal. before you know where you are
something is going to give, and what will be the results? They will be too fearful to contemplate.
... It does not take a great amount of heat to cause steel and iron to expand, and when beams and
columns begin moving something has got to break. Suppose a fire breaks out in one of these
buildings. We work at it from below, and the steel beams expand, the ceiling breaks and the floor
above comes down. ...
The statements of Professor Jones and others that "almost no fire, even one ignited by jet fuel, can
cause structural steel to fail" are insane distortions of reality and misrepresentations of
practical experience of fire-fighters and engineers (See
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html A fire in a Madrid steel-frame building
collapsed 10-story sections of the building -even without a plane crash weakening those sections-,
and almost brought down the rest of it, which had to be torn down. "At its peak, temperatures
reached 800 degrees Celsius (1,472 F)" )
See also:
http://enr.construction.com/images2/2006/02/060206-30A.jpg
Professor Jones' irresponsible claims disparaging the capacity of fire to damage and collapse
iron/steel structures are readily proved false by photographs of iron beams distorted and large
sections of buildings collapsed by fire, including those photos of the distorted iron beams in the
highway bridge that I include (below).
As for Jones' claims that a molten metal pooled and pouring out of the floors near where the planes
impacted was necessarily iron, not aluminum: How does Jones "get rid of" the Molten Aluminum that
would result from contact of the airplane parts with the alleged molten iron? Molten iron in
contact with solid aluminum will produce molten aluminum and solid iron, or motel aluminum and
molten iron (i.e., always molten aluminum). The molten metal emerges (only) at the same corner and
at the same floors of the WTC where the aluminum body of the aircraft "gently landed." What a
coincidence. Also, it almost certain that much of the aluminum of the aircraft had melted in the
heat of the fire(s), so if "iron" can "pool" there and pour out as Jones claims, why wouldn't some
of the tons of molten aluminum (which just happened to land there) also pour out? What happened to
the molten aluminum according to Jones? Jones only asserts that melted aircraft aluminum "would flow
away from the heat source ... Thus, the observed molten metal flowing from WTC 2 on 9/11 cannot be
aluminum."
Why would melted aluminum "flow away from the heat source" if not by action of gravity and the shape
of the surface (floors) it was pooled on? Molten Iron would follow the same path as molten
aluminum. And, why does Jones suppose that "out a window" is not "away from the heat source"? Why
would (pooled?) molten iron have a preference over pooled molten aluminum to flow "away" out of a
window from the same location?
More fundamentally, what good is molten iron falling out of a window to someone who wants to use it
to HEAT a VERTICAL IRON BEAM to the point of failure???? In order to USE thermite to heat
something, you have to let the molten iron transfer its heat to that thing, which means that the
molten iron would cool and solidify if were actually USED to heat something. And, since Jones
claims that the thermite was placed on the internal columns of the building (since they failed
first), how and why would molten iron show up at the outside perimeter (near a corner) to fall out
of a window? Thermite charges are always used ABOVE (or inside) the subject to be heated, because
any other position would result in the hot molten iron formed by thermite flowing down away from the
subject to be heated and being useless waste. Jones offers no explanation for why anyone would go
to the trouble of using "thermite" to produce many gallons of WASTE molten iron that was not kept in
intimate contact with vertical Beams and therefore served no purpose other than to fall out of a
window and attract attention to itself. So, shall we call Jones' Theory: The Theory of the
Incompetent Thermite Bombers Who Just Needed to Call Attention to their Handiwork by Pouring Molten
Iron out of a Window. Or, maybe the Airplanes were really Hijacked by well-intentioned American
Patriots who knew that the only way to expose the secret plot to destroy the WTC with Thermite was
to fly a plane into the buildings at exactly where the Thermite was installed to hopefully cause
some of its residue to fall out a window where the World could see it and certainly know that it was
"molten iron" produced by thermite. Bless their souls.
Jones writes:
"Dramatic footage reveals yellow-to-white hot molten metal dripping from the South WTC Tower just
minutes before its collapse:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9%2F11.
Photographs
capture the same significant event, clearly showing liquid metal dropping from the South Tower,
still hot as it nears the ground below:"
"Who can deny that liquid, molten metal existed at the WTC disaster? The yellow color implies a
molten-metal temperature of approximately 1000 oC."
Jones admits that: "We note that aluminum has many free electrons, so it reflects ambient light very
well -- and it appears 'silvery'. Aluminum ... aluminum would appear silvery due to high
reflectivity combined with low emissivity..."
Look at the shiny blocky highly reflective (silvery) solid masses that were produced from the
falling (cooling) molten metal, seen in the bottom of the photo above right. Is it solid Iron, or
solid Aluminum?
I believe that it may be possible to "prove" that the molten metal falling out of the WTC was
aluminum based on its behavior (e.g., breaking up in the air, failure to "spark" white all around,
and turning into a blocky silvery solid while falling). Aluminum is much less massive (dense) than
iron, so molten aluminum will be more affected by air resistance than molten iron would be. See the
horizontal shift of the falling molten metal in both of the photos above. (E.g., Aluminum would be
broken up out of a poured stream (or blown to one side) sooner than heavier molten iron) Also, at
any given temperature, molten iron would probably be differently viscuous or would have different
surface tension than molten aluminum. Thus, it would visibly behave differently upon being poured
of a window. The photos show molten metal pouring out of the WTC that appears to be somewhat
widely dispersed (and shifted horizontally) by wind and air resistance, suggesting that it is
lighter than iron. [It just does not quite "look" like a stream of heavy liquid iron.]
Experimentation or simulation could prove or disprove this hypothesis.
Keep in mind also that Jones is oblivious that hot (molten) Iron Burns spontaneously in air.
Another problem with Jones' theory that this falling molten metal is "iron" (and not aluminum) is
that IF it were IRON, at the temperature of melted iron, some of it would probably have constantly
been seen exploding/flashing/burning into bright white Light upon being released as small particles
in the air. "The smith's fire contains too much oxygen to allow iron to melt; as it approaches its
melting point the iron burns instead."
http://www.osv.org/cgi-bin/CreatePDF.php?/tour/index.php?L=12&PDF=Y
Read Faraday's demonstration of moderately heated iron particles burning in air, producing
"scintillations".
"I have here a circular flame of spirit of wine, and with it I am about to show you the way in
which iron burns, because it will serve very well as a comparison between the effect produced by air
and oxygen. If I take this ring flame, I can shake, by means of a sieve, the fine particles of iron
filings through it, and you will see the way in which they burn. [The lecturer here shook through
the flame some iron filings, which took fire and fell through with beautiful scintillations.]"
http://www.fordham.edu/HALSALL/MOD/1859Faraday-forces.html
Absent constant bright White "flashes" of burning iron droplets/particles, it more probably was
aluminum at or near its melting temperature. I have "poured" molten aluminum that I got by melting
scrap in a wood-fire, short distances, and that did not readily produce flashes of light (maybe
because it cools down faster in cold air than it can oxidize), although it theoretically can.
(molten aluminum is fairly tame) I have not "poured" molten iron, but see this photo showing the
smaller iron droplets burning bright WHITE in air during even a very short pouring operation at a
foundry:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/features/askaway/industrial/images/iron270.jpg
And see here, the veritable fireworks of hot iron particles diverging and exploding into white
light/flashes during a pour:
"In the foundry. The cast iron is being poured into the sand mould."
http://www.ship-technology.com/contractors/propulsion/daros/daros4.html
And, see all the bright white sparks flying in this series of photographs of an iron pour:
http://www.taylor.org/~argus/all/burn/00/second_roll/iron_pour/
Dante observed and wrote about this commonplace property of poured molten Iron, in his The Divine
Comedy:
"I could not endure it long, but enough to see him sparkle all round, like iron poured, molten,
from the furnace. And suddenly, it seemed that day was added to day, as though He who has the
power, had equipped Heaven with a second sun."
http://www.tonykline.co.uk/PITBR/Italian/DantPar1to7.htm
This video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9%2F11.
noted by Jones does show a few reluctant "sparkles", (which of course could also be consistent with
aluminum particle flashes), but does not quite show the constant "sparkle all around" that would be
expected (by Dante) from poured molten iron at the temperature of 1000C claimed by Jones.
Also, more definitely, the falling molten material clearly turns into a silver colored (highly
reflective) (flat, blocky) solid material after it cools (as soon as it stops glowing) after falling
down a number of stories (strongly suggesting aluminum metal, not iron). Solid iron is generally
not that highly reflective without polishing, but aluminum is. [Molten iron would probably not
loose its glow and convert into a solid so quickly, since it does not conduct heat as well as
aluminum and because it would be formed much hotter than molten aluminum.
Also, iron would be expected to coalesce into a rounder clump while falling before solidifying.
[Shot towers are used to form iron ball-bearings, and lead musket balls, out of poured molten metal.
But, there is no indication that aluminum can be formed into round balls by this method, perhaps
because it cools down to quickly] If the "shot tower" behavior of iron (forming sperical balls of
molten iron before solidifying) holds with larger amounts of poured iron, then the molten metal
pouring out of the WTC, IF IT WERE IRON WOULD HAVE FORMED CANON-BALL SHAPED gobs of molten metal
before it cooled down and solidified.
The falling metal pieces formed by that pour out the window of the WTC tower are clearly NOT
ROUND and are very elongated, or flat, indicating a very rapid cooling of the falling poured
(aluminum) metal. [These distinctions can be readily proved or disproved by experimentation or
calculation]. Jones does not comment upon the silvery flat, blocky, (not round) metal pieces
visible falling in the photo frames in his own thesis.
The NISC report seems to agree:
"The composition of the flowing material can only be the subject of speculation, but its behavior
suggests it could have been molten aluminum." (p. 375)
There is of course the possiblity that the falling molten metal was some other material from the
airplane or offices other than aluminium or iron. But, I believe that there is enough information
from the video to scientifically determine its approximate denisty and also its Specific Heat, its
melting/solidifying temperature, and its thermal conductivity. The latter determinations could be
based on standard formulas used to determine cooling rates due to "forced convection."
"Bah. This guy has been debunked all over the web. Professor Stephen Jones is wrong."
http://www.answers.com/topic/steven-e-jones linked from http://reddit.com/info/48t1/comments
"A few department chairmen at Jones' university have issued critical statements, though none of
these has yet addressed any of the points which Jones made in his paper and at his presentation at
BYU. Chairman of the BYU department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record
stating in an e-mail, "I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our
department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think
there is accuracy and validity to these claims."
About Professor Jones, assocated with the so-called "9-11 Scholars" website, I previously wrote (to
him) substantially the following assessment of his wacky half-baked theories about thermite and
molten iron:
Speaking as an engineer of high academic achievment, I am shocked that Brigham Young University has
employed an ignorant moron of such epic and treasonous proportions. I will be further shocked if he
is not removed promptly from his position of trust and confidence. It has been my understanding
that the Latter Day folks are a close knit group who watch out that their members far and wide do
not embarrass the community. In other words, it is my hope that the Latter Days will take the
initiative to contact the leadership at BYU so that justice to the truth may be served.
Excerpt of published assertions by BYU professor Jones:
"Jones argues that the WTC buildings did not collapse due to impact or fires caused by the
jets hitting the towers but collapsed as a result of pre-positioned "cutter charges." Proof, he
says, includes:
. Molten metal was found in the subbasements of WTC sites weeks after 9/11; the melting
point of structural steel is 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit and the temperature of jet fuel does not
exceed 1,800 degrees. Molten metal was also found in the building known as WTC7, although no plane
had struck it. Jones's paper also includes a photo of a slag of the metal being extracted from
ground zero. The slag, Jones argues, could not be aluminum from the planes because in photographs
the metal was salmon-to-yellow-hot temperature (approximately 1,550 to 1,900 degrees F) "well above
the melting temperatures of lead and aluminum," which would be a liquid at that temperature.
.... No steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to
fires. Temperatures due to fire don't get hot enough for buildings to collapse, he says."
Having seen first hand the rubble of the WTC on the night of September 11, 2001, I can tell you
there was fire and fires everywhere around the scene, and fumes rose steadily from the "piles" after
the collapse, and fumes continued to rise from the piles when I went back to Ground Zero over a week
later. As I described it " I saw a hellish vapor slowly rising everywhere from the rubble like
something out of Dante [Inferno]."
See: While Leaving Ground Zero - September 11, 2002
http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=4108 (Note, I am not the same "Mark Ferran" as the
NYC fireman by that name, and we have never met)
When I first heard about the fires in the WTC
buildings that morning, I said to myself, in my office, that the metal must be getting very hot.
When I later saw the images of smoke and fire billowing out of those buildings, I knew they would
not stand. After they fell, the huge piles of iron beams and combustible materials formed two
enormous furnaces, comprising burning office materials, burning metal, and burning human flesh (not
to mention many tons of combustible aircraft aluminum and iron, i.e., thermite) which over the
course of several weeks and months. It was widely reported that the temperature (e.g., measured by
infra red imaging from above) in the interior of the piles INCREASED in the weeks after the collapse
of the towers, due quite obviously to the combustion of combustible matter in these large furnaces.
The moron employed at BYU seems to have no conception of the nature of a furnace, no concept of the
fact that metals burn, and seems to be unable to comprehend that there were much combustible
materials in the piles from the collapsed buildings OTHER THAN what the airplanes brought in.
"[W]hile the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by
the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper [and
humans, and aluminum of the planes]. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F [even before the
buildings collapsed]." The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for
maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff
burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=4&c=y
Even ordinary dry WOOD (charcoal) in a large enough furnace, is capable of melting iron:
www.uky.edu/.../BigSinking/ Furnace/furnace.htm
While a mixture of aluminum and (oxygen and iron) (e.g., rust) called "Thermite" is capable of
producing molten iron, evidently, a combination of metalic Iron and Oxygen (or Carbon Monoxide) is
itself capable of melting iron in a large pile furnace. Large piles of pure iron dust are capable
of "burning" themselves into a molten mass solely due to the heat of combustion of the iron itself.
Iron itself is a combustible material (and is commonly used in powder form to warm hands and feet in
little packs sold at Wal-Mart etc., and in MREs).
It is certainly known to be possible for ordinary hydrocarbon fuels (like oil, gasoline or jetfuel)
alone to destroy heavy iron and iron-concrete structures, as in the case of the Bridgeport gas
tanker fire which destroyed a highway overpass formed of large iron I-beams and concrete.
http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t3161.html ("a fiery tanker truck [carrying
12,000 gallons of fuel oil ] melted a bridge on Interstate 95" in Massachusetts) See also
http://www.oe.netl.doe.gov/docs/eads/ead032604.doc
I believe that these photos (below, and seven images at EHOWA) fairly illustrate the type of
expansion, distortion and yielding that most likely happened to destroy some of the iron columns
supporting the enormous weight of the World Trade Centers' top 30+/- floors.
The iron columns of the WTC towers did not "melt" in the scientific sense of the word, but they
certainly EXPANDED (due to heat), and yielded (due to the enormous pressure caused by their own
thermal expansion). Just turn these above pictures from horizontal to vertical, and think what
would happen if that beam were instead a column holding up a heavy building. (Look at the distorted
iron, heated by ordinary hydrocarbon fuel burning, and keep in mind what Professor Jones said:
"almost no fire, even one ignited by jet fuel, can cause structural steel to fail." ) Also note how
the metal of the fuel tank itself so completely disintegrated. (see the other photos at at EHOWA ).
It's tank may have been made of flammable aluminum metal, like the skin and structure of a jetliner,
or of stainless steel. I believe that the fires confined inside the world trade center towers
could have been much hotter than this fairly "open air" (unconfined) gasoline fire, due to the
greater containment of the heat-of-combustion by the ceilings, floors and debris in the burning WTC
towers. See http://www.zmag.org/interactive/content/display_item.cfm?itemID=3944
The False Leaders of the so-called "9-11 Truth" movement typically do not understand or don't
acknowledge the power of ordinary FIRE nor the known weaknesses and behaviors of iron exposed to
fire, and they peddle their false explanations of occurrences to people even more ignorant than
them. They are the blind leading the blind. Most of the uneducated people (e.g., WebFairy, Lisa
Guliani, Victor Thorne etc.) selling videos books, etc., claiming that "fire could not have
destroyed the WTC towers" are just pathological liars who will tell any lie to take a buck from the
gullible.
Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "maximum temperature" for the combustion of any dry fuel.
If you raise the temperature of a dry fuel, like paper, or wood paneling, or charred flesh, and then
expose it to oxygen, its temperature will INCREASE, not remain the same. Duh!!! The bigger the
furnace, the higher the temperature of the unburned fuel gets before it combines with oxygen, and
thus still higher will its temperature be when it finally combusts. "Temperature" inside of a
furnace system is solely a function of how much heat enters the system versus how much leaves the
system, over time, and not a function of the type of fuel. Insulation, or a large enough mass,
slows the exit of heat from the system. (Note: melting things removes energy from a system) A large
pile of debris forms an insulating furnace retaining much of the heat of combustion, raising the
internal temperature, evidently high enough to melt iron. That is how the ancients used piles to
make and refine and melt iron from ore.
It is shocking that a "professor" would assume that molten iron found weeks or months later in the
bowels of a huge pile of continuously burning debris (containing tons of combustible iron and other
materials) would have to have been generated at the very begining of the fire, or even before the
pile was formed. It is even more nonsensical for him to presume that a molten metal supposedly
formed before the buildings collapsed would remain molten for months without some subsequent source
of heat being applied to it. And, it is totally absurd for him to presume that a molten (liquid)
metal supposedly formed in the top floors before the buildings collapsed (his "thermite" theory)
would remain both molten and intact after it fell 70+ stories in a chaotic collapse while even more
solid objects (bones, concrete, flesh) were obliterated on the way down. The "professor" also
seems to be oblivious that (aircraft) aluminum is itself a high-energy fuel, that would not be found
in bright molten form weeks later (because it burns continuously when molten and exposed to air).
(They use Aluminum metal as fuel to propel the Space Shuttle into Orbit around the Earth).
Also apparent, is that the so-called "professor" is incompetent or lazy in the use of search
engines, such as Google. On this very subject, I wrote this back in 2001:
"Furthermore, if it is true that "pools of molten steel" were found in the (basement of) remains
of the WTC twin towers, this molten material probably began to form and accumulate days AFTER THE
COLLAPSE of the tower, when the huge mass of material trapped the heat of slowed combustion that
continued within the pile. I saw the fumes of combustion folks, the piles were slowly burning after
the buildings collapsed. Everyone with the slightest recollection of the events knows this. Even a
huge pile of iron filings will form a red-hot fused mass of metal because the heat produced
internally by rusting will build up in the pile. Any combustible material in the "piles" of the WTC
that was exposed to heat and to any amount of infiltrating air (oxygen) would contribute to
hot-spots. All of the conjectures that say the steel formed before the buildings collapsed are
ignorant and preposterous. The Steel in the rubble of the WTC melted, if at all, because of the
enormous size of the piles and presence of much combustible materials in them, not merely because of
the burning of jet fuel. Those who say otherwise are either lying, or are overlooking something
fundamental. While jet fuel flame burning in OPEN AIR will may not maintain the temperature you need
to melt steel, if you inject any fuel mixed with air into a huge porous mass that cannot rapidly
release the built-up heat of combustion, you will produce a furnace capable of melting steel or
practically any other metal. An open flame rapidly dissipates the heat of combustion, but a furnace
conserves and accumulates the heat of combustion. Any fuel will produce this effect in the
appropriate furnace. Its like the difference between the heat of an open wood-flame of a single
stick burning in open air, compared to the (steel-melting) white-hot heat produced in the bottom of
a large pile of wood and burning wood-coals. This is also the principle by which large piles of
organic materials (e.g., saw-dust, leaves, hay) will spontaneously begin to burn- the heat of decay
builds up inside them. "No matter which mechanism is involved, the oxidation reaction will generate
heat. If there is some form of insulation, which is usually provided by the mass of the material
itself, the heat cannot be dissipated. Because the heat is not dissipated, the temperature of the
material increases. The increase in temperature will in turn increase the rate at which the
oxidation reaction occurs, which in turn will increase the amount of heat generated, and so on. This
increase after increase continues until either the heat is dissipated some way [e.g. by melting
steel], or the material reaches its ignition temperature and starts to burn. (the same basic process
occurs in stored green bio-mass materials such as hay, saw dust, corn cobs, etc. but the heat is
generated by the life process of micro-organisms)."
http://bifrost.unl.edu/ehs/ChemicalInfo/flamsol.html "
"This scientific principle of a furnace, understood by primitive humans since the bronze age,
could potentially destroy the credibility of anyone who forwards and endorses the erroneous theories
(e.g., "nuclear" bombs). You are literally playing with fire by promoting such bogus theories.
People, for the sake of our country, and out of respect for those who died at the WTC, please do not
promote or forward those Urban Legends.
"I am sorry if my words are harsh, but I do not have much patience for people who are either
irresponsible for forgetting what they themselves saw, who pretend to understand physical principles
that they have not studied or otherwise have no competence in, or who are simply liars who are out
to make a reputation by misrepresenting to others what happened on September 11, 2001. Everyone with
common sense knows that two commercial air planes hit and burned inside the towers and caused the
towers to break and to fall. Mark R. Ferran BSEE scl JD mcl http://billstclair.com/ferran/index.html
http://www.zmag.org/interactive/content/display_item.cfm?itemID=3944
I am aware that there are millions of science-ignorant people and some total morons walking around
America babbling about the World Trade Center (and I have tried in vein to address this
http://www.zmag.org/interactive/content/display_item.cfm?itemID=3944 ) , but when a "professor" who
knows that he has no formal education nor any practical education in the science of chemistry,
combustion, nor of metallurgy, nor of the Strength of materials decides to spew his ignorant
reckless notions as scientific "FACTS" to the gullible volatile public at a time of crisis, I feel
that his reckless conduct warrants extreme and swift punishment. Professor Jones has also
misrepresented the significance of the "Law of Entropy" to bolster his false claims. Given the
tendancy of this professor's misrepresentations to give aide, comfort, and encouragement to those
who have overtly declared Jihad against our pathetic country, (and who must be able to recruit more
jihadists just by laughing at our domestic morons) I would be satisfied to see this "professor"
tried, convicted, and executed for Treason. He breached a Trust in time of WAR. Jones' reckless
remarks will probably kill as many Americans as President Bush's misuse of the word "Crusade" has
and will.
I have never heard of a single NYC fireman doubting that a fire of the proportion of those in the
towers could destroy such a building that was not designed to withstand such an enormous fire. See,
e.g., http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/vallebunoa.html ("We thought 7 World
Trade Center was going to fall").
I think it is preposterous for anyone to assume that a tall building or any conventional material or
mode of construction can not fall down if you fly a large fuel-laden airplane into it at more than
500 miles per hour.
In summary, we have a moron posing as President, and now we have morons posing as "Professors" too.
No wonder that the people of the world increasingly find it necessary to destroy US for their own
preservation.
Mark Fe
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
Nevertheless, another post on the subject soon came in:
However, it really looks like Smith and Hufschmid are set up to be SO Whacko that Rense, Jones, and Rivero will look like the good guys in the end.
This little bit of weirdness with Sam Danner, now discredited eye-witness is a case in point. It's standard operating procedure to set up Straw Man attackers against COINTELPRO agents in order to take them down and have the REAL agents thereby confirmed in the public's mind as "good guys." Any sincere 911 people who aren't fully educated on the ways and means of COINTELPRO and pathological psychic driving are vulnerable to being used in this way even if their intentions are good.
Again, the whole 911 Truth/Research movement/gang is looking more and more like the most elaborate COINTELPRO nonsense ever conceived.
Of course, as we now know, this "eyewitness" was lying - having been apparently pressured to do so by so-called 911 researcher Eric Hufschmid. See: http://wingtv.net/thorn2006/danner.html
Nevertheless, another post on the subject soon came in:
Now here's the problem: indeed, we think that there is something "strange" about Michael Rivero, Jeff Rense, Alex Jones, etc... that is one point we agree with Daryl Bradford Smith and Eric Hufschmid on.
However, it really looks like Smith and Hufschmid are set up to be SO Whacko that Rense, Jones, and Rivero will look like the good guys in the end.
This little bit of weirdness with Sam Danner, now discredited eye-witness is a case in point. It's standard operating procedure to set up Straw Man attackers against COINTELPRO agents in order to take them down and have the REAL agents thereby confirmed in the public's mind as "good guys." Any sincere 911 people who aren't fully educated on the ways and means of COINTELPRO and pathological psychic driving are vulnerable to being used in this way even if their intentions are good.
Again, the whole 911 Truth/Research movement/gang is looking more and more like the most elaborate COINTELPRO nonsense ever conceived.
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
Next, a member of the list forwarded an old email about Israeli's being warned of the 911 attack. I assume that this was meant to contribute evidence of the Israeli involvement in 911.
Next, a member of the list forwarded an old email about Israeli's being warned of the 911 attack. I assume that this was meant to contribute evidence of the Israeli involvement in 911.
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
I'm skipping a few posts that came from people who just sent a bunch of links to current news articles.
So far, the line being drawn between those who saw an Israeli roll in 911 and those who did not was shaping up. I didn't realize that it was going to get even more bizarre.
I'm skipping a few posts that came from people who just sent a bunch of links to current news articles.
So far, the line being drawn between those who saw an Israeli roll in 911 and those who did not was shaping up. I didn't realize that it was going to get even more bizarre.
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
With this next post, I'm going to include all the exchange because it seems that there were exchanges going on that I wasn't getting all copies of. It may even have been the actual "debate discussion".
I was fast losing confidence that Gerard Holmgren was the man for the job...
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd
It was with this post below that I finally realized that there was something really strange about what Holmgren was thinking, promoting, and proposing to debate in defense of the entire 911 Truth community.
It was with this post below that I finally realized that there was something really strange about what Holmgren was thinking, promoting, and proposing to debate in defense of the entire 911 Truth community.
This was when I realized that Holmgren's argument (whether true or not) was so out there that it would do nothing but turn every normal person off to any ideas of the rest of the 911 Truth seeking community.