Alex Jones - COINTELPRO? Fascist Tool?

Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

Well, I was pretty shocked with the sudden accusatory tone that was being taken by this Nico Haupt person, about whom I knew absolutely nothing except that he was using the list to promote his own stuff, against Prof. Steven Jones. For some reason (lost my head, I guess), even though there had been the aborted debate with the 911 Conspiracy deniers like Roginsky and others, I did think that this list was a good opportunity for all of the researchers to get together and agree on some basic things, develop a strategy, etc. So, I was glad to see someone take Haupt to task for his accusations. Only thing was, this person was promoting another obvious agenda based group: the Loose Change gang which pushes revolution in the U.S.:

From: "Bill Douglas"
To: SNIPPED LIST
Subject: Re: Nico Haupt's accusations of Steven Jones - Is Haupt is conintellpro?
Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:09:33 -0500

Re: Nico Haupt's accusations of Steven Jones - Is Haupt is conintellpro?

Folks, Nico Haupt's latest accusations on Steven Jones, is further
indication that Haupt may well be a cointell pro agent. Haupt has been very
adept over the years of creating sh*t storms right when the US govt. becomes
most vulnerable on the 9/11 issue.

I have observed Haupt's style for many years. The first time I met him was
in San Francsico. At that time 911Visibility.org had just made history by
creating and printing the now famous iconoclastic image "Stop the 9/11 Cover
Up" signs. We had distributed thousands to cities including NY and San
Francisco to place at the front of the mass anti-war protests. Wire
services said, "Mass Demonstration gathers against the war and to stop the
9/11 cover up." It was to date the largest major media exposure for 9/11
truth seekers in major media. Nightline w/ Ted Kopel put the "Stop the 9/11
Cover Up" sign front and center on their newscast that night.

THEN, ODDLY, while most 9/11 activists were estatic of our success when we
arrived at the San Franciso event, I soon discoverd quickly that Nico and
his side-kick Angie (from NY) were energetically spreading the rumour that
911Visibility activists, particularly me, were government agents. I've seen
Nico's modus operandi too many times. Everyone needs to be wise to it.

He wrote on his website that meetups.com was a Heritage Foundation
organization, and therefore anyone who encouraged meetups.com to be used as
a 9/11 truth organizing tool, was by association an "agent."

Haupt, so characteristically, has impeccable timeing to throw a
fragmentation bomb in the middle of the 9/11 truth movement. At a time when
"Scholars for 9/11 Truth" sets this movement on fire and gains it more
mainstream publicity than it ever has in a most positive light . . . Nico
drops a bomb within the movement in the form of the below spurious attack
and accusation on Jones. Thereby (according to whoever Haupt likely works
for) A) forces Jones to stop organizing and answer these questions, and B)
causes 9/11 truth activists to pause their work spreading the good
information Scholars for 9/11 Truth has meticulously accumulated.

THE ANSWER:
1) Forget about Haupt, don't let him trick you with the below accusations
into wasting precious time arguing about this, rather than continuing on
with your 9/11 organizing.
2) Keep spreading "Loose Change" "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" "David Ray
Griffin's works" and all the facts and reputable 9/11 websites and their
info out, out, out to media, scholars, officials, community organizations
etc.

Haupt's actions become more and more transparent as the truth expands so
rapidly, to make the powers that be nervous, so they get desperate, their
tactics become even more and more transparent.

Bill Douglas
Needless to say, Haupt had a "defender" onboard who was "johnny on the spot". It was starting to look like a REAL COINTELPRO tag team op.

Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:35:31 -0500
From: Rosalee Grable <webfairy****>
To: Bill Douglas and SNIPPED List
Subject: Re: Nico Haupt's accusations of Steven Jones - Is Haupt is conintellpro?


The single issue that makes the perps most vulnerable is the lack of
planes, the planted debris, and the tvfakery second hit.

Nico has carefully documented Professor Jones history and associations.
http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=90
http://911closeup.com
under the COINTELPRO heading finds that Jim Hoffman's employer has
similar secret government connections.

Bill Douglas merely calls names and casts aspersions.
Nico collects facts.


Major League connections to Lawrence Livermore and Los Alamos Labs, with
security clearances undamaged by association with 911 "Truth" --
obviously a cherry picked exposure was part of the plan for the
Globalist overthrow of America.

THE MEDIA IS PERPS.
If they get on the 911 "Truth" bandwagon, it will be to drive us in the
direction they want us to go. That has always been war, war, war.

The media is owned by the same defense contractor conglomerates that
support secret spooker labs like Lawrence Livermore and Los Alamos,
which was previously soiled by it's association with selling secret
technology to China.
Prof. Jones wasn't long in responding. I was sorry to see that he obviously lacked good psychological knowledge which he ought to have acquired from teaching. He immediately went on the defensive:

Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:02:15 -0600
From: "Steve Jones"
To: "Nico Haupt" and SNIPPED List
Subject: Re: Questions to Prof.Jones military research regarding his 'Dod background'


In brief, I do not have nor have I ever had a DOD clearance.

I do not have any contracts with or grants from any government agency
at this time.
I have had grants from the Dept. of Energy in the past. Nothing from
the Dept. of Defense, ever.

At TRIUMF, I researched muon-catalyzed fusion (see also my article
with PRof. Rafelski in Scientific American, July 1987). Ditto
Rutherford-Appleton and KEK labs.

I haven't heard from Russ George or Terry Bollinger for perhaps 10 years or so.

>Can you rule out that any specific elements of Cold Fusion could have been
> used for the controlled demolition of Twin Towers 1, 2 (with or without your
> knowledge)?

Cold fusion is a very small effect, observable in the laboratory, but
not releasing energy on a scale large enough to CD the towers!
>
> 6
> Can you explain to us why are you still backed by Los Alamos, Lawrence
> Livermore, Sandia and the high elite science society "Sigma Xi"?

What makes you say I am "backed by Los Alamos, Lawrence
Livermore, Sandia "? Not so!
Sigma Xi made me a member some time ago; I am not active in the organization.

No connections 13, 14.
I am involved in one debate in September (see www.st911.org.) Perhaps
that is enough.

Steven J
Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:10:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nico Haupt <nicohaupt2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Questions to Prof.Jones military research regarding his 'Dod background'
To: Steve Jones and SNIPPED List

Steve,

thanks for the first response on my questions.

As i pointed out in my summary, some particular results of your research or related paralell
research from other scientists HAD been picked up by DoD and even patented.

Also you didn't respond yet on the questions of you can imagine potential use/misuse of the energy
related research on the matter for weaponry.

Therefore i would still like to hear answers on

2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12,
specificially also 13, 14, 14-2b (sorry for this dupe. Why did they allow you still membership?),

also 15, 16 and unrelated to the header: 17

thx

nico aka ewing2001
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

Apparently, I wasn't the only one who was more or less dismayed at the LOW level of discourse on this list of supposed 911 researchers:

Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:25:58 -0400
From: "Robert Lederman"
To: "Nico Haupt" and SNIPPED List
Subject: Unwanted emails re: 9/11 STOP SENDING THESE TO ME


I've asked politely almost 10 different times that my email address
and name be removed from this cc list. Despite that, I get numerous
cc's a day from various of the "research" people listed here. Perhaps
while doing all your "research" you can learn how to blind carbon copy
an email or even better, learn how not to send your comments to those
asking to be removed from this "conversation."
Here is the address and name I am asking you all to please stop
sending your comments, research etc. to. It is:
Robert Lederman
robert.lederman@****
Thanks in advance,
Robert Lederman
But it continued...

From: "Bill Douglas" <findtruth1000@hotmail.com>
To: webfairy@**** and SNIPPED List
Subject: Re: Nico Haupt's accusations of Steven Jones - Is Haupt is conintellpro?
Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:52:46 -0500

Rosalee Grable AKA Webfairy wrote:
>Bill Douglas merely calls names and casts aspersions.
>Nico collects facts." webfairy
>

If webfairy consider's Nico's rants as "facts" then that says something
about webfairy's reliability. So, I'm assuming that Nico's "fact" that
anyone using the meetups.com for 9/11 meetings is "an agent", is one of your
wonderful "facts."

Apparently webfairy is just as lunatic, or something else, as Nico.
Scholars for 9/11 Truth, David Ray Griffin, 911Truth.org, and
911Visibility.org have done more to break 9/11 into the mainstream resulting
in nearly half of Americans now suspecting US govt. involvement.

All of the above have been attacked by Nico, and at times when truth is
breaking out the most. Don't be fooled by Nico, and webfairy, you are
either being fooled by him, or perhaps not. If not, that is even more
suspect.

Bill Douglas
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

The following post confused me a bit because I wasn't, at this point, aware that there were people who were actually promoting the idea that NO PLANES at ALL were involved in the 911 Attacks!! And, once again, it seemed to be something that was addressed to me privately as there was no list of recipients and no BCC indicator. (That doesn't mean that it was not sent to many people, however.) This was apparently a post written in response to someone else whose message is at the end of Eastman's comments.

From: "Dick Eastman"
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk
Subject: 9-11 Investigators -- Whom do you trust? -- A call to reason
Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:04:44 -0700

9-11 Investigators -- Whom do you trust? -- A call to reason

The false-opposition are dominating the discussion - they are the 9-11
perpetrators' first line of defense against the internet.

It is time to drag the "no-plane" disinformation operation out into the
sunlight.

I answer Holmgren-Grable this way:

1. There are not videos of the South Tower where the wall explodes without
an airplane entering it.

2. A conspiracy would not have risked a "no planes" black-op due to the
uncontrollable possibility that hundreds of cameras woud be focused on the
building from every angle so soon following the attack on North Tower. All
that would be needed was one video recording taken from across the harbor
that would show the explosion happening without a plane.

3. Holmgren has never placed an ad in New York papers or on New York and
New Jersey radio asking for witnesses to the plane hitting South Tower --
this research would have to be done before any claim could be made that no
one saw the plane enter the building. That Holmgren makes his claim without
having done the necessary research that such a claim would require tells us
all we need to know about Holmgren.

4. Holmgren has not produced witnesses who say they were looking at the
wall of south tower with a clear view of the sky when they saw the wall
explode without a plane hitting it.

5. Holmgren ignores the many statements of people who saw the second plane
come in.

6. Holmgren and Grable take the many video recordings of the crash and in
every case take indistinctness due to focus and resolution and other
parameters of photography and claim -- with no other foundation -- that
this is proof that all these videos are actually "cartoons".

This is not the first time I have debunked Rosalee Grable ("Webfairy").
Before she got together with Holmgren in Chicago and agreed with him upon
promoting the "no-planes" thesis she had advocated, in succession, two
other impossible theories about WTC attacks. First she claimed that the
North Tower was hit by a UFO, which she styled "whatzit" -- based entirely
upon the poor resolution of the only video recording of the event (Naudett
video) -- the camera was not focused on the distant building, and so the
image of the plane was extremely distorted -- and she insisted that the
distorted image of the plane after enlargement of the video image "proved"
that there was an exotic shaped UFO. And after that theory lost its
excitement, Grable then adopted the theory that all the planes of Sept 11
were holograms. I again pointed out that holograms cannot be projected --
that holograms of that size are impossible -- much less the impossiblity of
it being seen from every angle etc. -- and with each of these earlier
"Webfairy" theories Grable insisted upon the stupidity and dishonestyof
any and all who would dare question her conclusions.

No accusation could be more serious or momentus than the claim that the
attack on the WTC and Pentagon was a false-flag inside-job. It is the
difference between the US being a victim Arabs who hate our freedoms or our
ruling minority being the most horrible and Machiavellian provocateur of its
own aggression. There is also the implication for Zionism -- if 9-11 was a
frame-up then Israel (through Mossad and Zionist Neocons at the Pentagon)
would have to be complicit. History -- our historical world view our
interpretation of the political/ sociological universe -- would no longer be
able to go on as it has.


I believe there is evidence that points to 9-11 WTC being an inside job.
There were explosions on the lower floors well after North Towers was hit
and before the South Tower crash that cannot be explained by the jetliner
crash. Holmgren and Grable distract people from these disturbing facts.

Other people have raised questions about the way the Towers came down --
Holmgren and Grable's no planes theory also distracts from discussion of
these questions.

But most of all, in my view, Holmgren and Webfairy distract from the hard
evidence and witness reports that indicate that a plane or missile much
smaller than a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon. Here we have the DoD's own
security cam video defintiely showing something other than a Boeing. Here
we have real problems with the content of the debris field. Here we have
witnesses who actually give conflicting accounts -- some describing two
plane, some describing a plane smaller than a jetliner. Here we have
people who saw the jetliner coming at the Pentagon on one path, and a
completely different path of damage (downed lampposts, entry and exit holes
in the Pentagon) -- indicating, as some witnesses stated, that there were
two planes present at the time of the attack. And it is exactly this
evidence that Gerard Holmgren, Rosalee Grable and Nico Haupt have
consistently downplayed and crowded out with their no planes thesis.

Dick Eastman
Yakima, Washington
http://www.bedoper.com/eastman


------

From: Joseph Keith
To: Dick Eastman
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: 9-11 Investigators -- Whom do you trust? -- A call to reason


Hello, Dick,
I absolutely believe in the 'no plane theory' and I do not believe it dilutes the evidence or
detracts from the truth movement in any way. I believe that it definitely adds to the evidence of
the inside job! I believe the all videos of the crash that I have seen are fake, and here is an
absolute way of proving that the 2nd crash video is a fake. You can use any of the crash videos to
do this.

I like the HBO produced DVD that uses Mayor Giuliani as its narrator, I like it best because
the 2nd crash comes right near the beginning so that it is quicker to locate. The title of this DVD
is: In Memoriam, New York City, 9/11/01. But any DVD that contains the crash will do and get you
the same results.

There are really three test to perform:

1. Run the DVD and watch the airliner glide into the tower and note: Airliners don't meld into
steel and concrete towers, they crash against them. Notice that the first crash is shown first in
this video, so be sure and wait for the second crash.

2. Rewind the DVD and run it until the airliner comes into sight. Then, hit the pause button.
Next, continue hitting the single step button, analyzing each single step, until the airliner is
completely absorbed into the building, and note: As the 140 ton airliner crashes into the tower you
will notice that there is no cratering effect or indentation. There is no breaking off of parts.
There is no reaction as different parts of the airliner come into contact with immovable points of
resistance. Try to make mental notes of everything in the video, etc., etc. When the airliner is
completely absorbed, the tower seems to close up and then you see an explosion. During this period
there is no debris falling from the tower. During this process keep a count of the number of single
steps from the moment of impact to complete absorption. From this statistic you can compute the
average speed of the airliner during absorption, using a frame rate of 30 frames per second.. It
has been computed by many 911 truth seekers that due to the banking angle of the airliner that the
airliner will have come into with 5 different floors of the tower. During this test it can be noted
that all of Newton's laws of motion have been violated.

3. Rewind the DVD and run it until the airliner comes into sight. (This step can be combined with
step 2). With the DVD in pause mode, take a marker and make a mark on your TV screen at the at the
point of the airliner's nose. Then, single step it until the end of the airliner reaches the mark,
keeping a count of the single steps. Now, notice that it takes the same number of steps for the
airliner to fly through thin air as it does to penetrate its entire length into the tower.

If you perform the three test above, you will be convinced of one, and only one, fact: It is
not a video of an actual airliner crash into the tower!! In other words, it is a fake!!!!!!! Why
would the Media show a fake video if they recorded the actual crash? The U.S. Government and the
Establishment Media have Irrefutably lied. If you disagree, just show me one video of the actual
crash. You can't, because they didn't ever exist!!!!!!!!!!!

And, based on other 9/11 evidence, it can be reasonably assumed that there were no hijacked
airliners involved in the 9/11 crime. And also, any court in the World will take JUDICIAL NOTICE of
this lie!!!!

Regards,
Joseph M. Keith
Tustin, CA

PS: Please don't try to shoot me down until you perform the tests. If you can find a video of a
real crash into the WTC, please advise me.

reply:


Thanks for the detailed response, Keith.

There is no gasoline in the fuselage and the fuselage did not hit solid concrete and steel -- it
hit open office space separated by concrete floors -- it hit walls of steel sheet pieces riveted
together mixed with glass windows. Both holes show that the steel sheet pieces were pushed in (what
pushed them?) Yes, the plane that hit South Tower appears to glide right in -- but unlike you I
say that that is what it is supposed to look like.

We see how the engine glided right in and glided right out again because it was not stopped by the
structural core inside the building.

1. Airliners will appear to enter the building, because that is exactly what they are doing.

2. The plane is traveling at the speed of a handgun bullet -- while weaker than the steel, the
plane is stronger than the connections in the steel pieces and it is stronger than the glass
windows. The fuselage appears to have entered open office space -- which received it without
resistance. And yes, there is lots of falling debris -- and pictures of large pieces on the ground
(one with a row of airplane windows in it).

3. The plane pushes into the building (does not crash into solid steel and concrete) and is stopped
inside by the more solid core -- where it crumbles/pulverizes/blows apart -- the aft of the plane
continues following -- not slowed down. The plane is not a solid rod that will slow when one end
hits a wall -- remember -- the speed of a bullet -- turning to powder and confetti and pieces of
various sizes -- certainly not maintaining its structure to slow down the plane -- although Salter
claims (his methods against yours) that the plane can be seen slowing down as it enters the
building. You methods are crude -- maybe Salters are too -- I do not see that large decrements
in the speed of the tail fin are a must. Remember -- what is in the tower is no longer an airliner
-- as plane is blasted to smithereens inside the tower so more plane can (carried by its own
inertia) move inside.



Dick Eastman
Yakima, Washington

-------

I'm reminded of the first lesson in Karate'.

The instructor has a stack of bricks or wood. Note that
neither is supported in the middle, just the outside edges
to allow the next event. Still, it's quite a stack of fairly
strong material, stronger than the skin on the head of
the instructor, certainly. Maybe even the bone.

Then the instructor pauses, and slams his head in the center
of the pile with force and as fast as he can.

The pile is neatly broken in half.

There are several factors at work. First, the wood is placed
so that the grain of the wood is "in line" with the force, allowing
an inherent split point.

Second, the head of the instructor is fairly hard, not as hard as
the bricks - if they were supported on a hard surface.
But they are based at the bottom on empty air, a space to "give"
and allow the fractures.

Third, the physical fact that the instructor "thinks through", the
hit, provides a targeted way to add the maximum energy. And
crack - the boards or bricks break when he adds speed. This
exercise can be applied to the the Towers at the trade center.

First, the outer walls of the WTC were designed specifically
to support against gravity. Vertically. This is comparable
to the grain of the wood. Strong in one direction, weak
in the horizontal other

In fact, the Towers were designed to sway in heavy winds and
earthquakes, to absorb lateral movement. By necessity, the
walls were built to "hang from the core" and be somewhat
flexible. This allowed them to flex in up to 180 mph winds.
That design also was built to withstand a fully loaded hit
by a Boeing 707, only slightly smaller than a 767. (By fully
loaded, I assume that included some factors for fuel fires).

Second, the aircraft is not as hard as steel. but consider that
the steel plates were only perhaps half-an-inch thick and
the walls were a rather thin coating of concrete. Behind
that ? Air and empty space.

Third - the energy. With the Karate' instructor, he adds the
energy by intention and speed. He is using the laws of
physics. In the case of the Towers, the energy is being supplied
in two ways. The engines are still throttled up until they are
inside the building. The mass of the entire plane comes
to bear on rather thin walls. Everybody knows that the nose
of the plane is pretty weak, however the entire mass of the
plane has little to stop it - after all, behind the first portions
of the plane, is a lot more plane right behind.

So we're talking about 160 tons of mass, with only a small
portion of the leading edges, striking a wall that's designed
to absorb energy from the horizontal, to "give" somewhat
to absorb high winds - and airplanes, according to the
designers.

Breaking into open air inside takes practically no time, and
with the rather light resistance of the walls, the wings break
inside the building, and the fuel, surrounded by sparks,
ignites.

That the wings are swept back only allows for easier entry,
as the hole is widened in the hit.

Now the plane is inside and striking the floor components.
Again, we're talking about vertical support rather than
horizontal. The floors were made with corrugated metal,
with concrete (non-structural concrete) providing a firm
floor, yet not too heavy. Weight of materials are critical
in the design. The floors are supported vertically by
trusses to the wall and to the core. But in comes 160
tons of plane at 500 mph. Out Karate instructor is getting
jealous. He got to maybe 40 mph briefly with his head.

So the floors go. On the side where the plane hit. Most
of the rest of floors survive, being independently
held up on the other side, by the core and other walls.
The only destruction of the floors is directly in the plane's
path, and somewhat by the explosion. The building is
still strong in every other area, thanks to a solid design.

Note that the designer claimed that the building could
withstand a hit from a 707. He did NOT say a plane
would "bounce off" the Tower harmlessly. They were
designed for vertical strength, but not for 160 tons
coming in horizontally at 500 mph. They were designed
to still stand after such a hit. And they did.

-John Austin
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

The Holmgren, Haupt, Grable tag team apparently wasn't going to leave Steve Jones alone:

From: "Gerard Holmgren"
To: "'Nico Haupt'" and SNIPPED List
Subject: RE: Questions to Prof.Jones military research regarding his 'Dod background'
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 09:37:35 +1000

In case anyone has missed it, I also issue a challenge to Steven Jones to
debate me in relation to no planes/TV fakery.
And others were defending Jones:

From: KenJenkins
Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:41:07 EDT
Subject: Re: Questions to Prof.Jones military research regarding his 'Dod background'
To: Steven Jones and SNIPPED List

Steven,

In a message dated 7/25/06 2:04:14 PM, Steven Jones writes:

> In brief, ...
>
> Perhaps that is enough.
>

Your answers to Nico are more than enough. Bill Douglas is right, do not
waste any more of your time trying to answer Nico's (or Veronica's) endless
questions and accusations. They will never leave you at peace, or take your
word, or run out of ways to take up your time. You see, you, like myself, Bill
and many others have made one fatal "mistake" - we don't agree with their
no-planes-at-the-WTC theory. That makes you the enemy in their eyes, and they
will do whatever they can to discredit you for making that one "mistake".

While I don't agree with the idea that Nico (or any of his no-plane cult) are
disinfo agents, the point is that they do have a very similar impact to real
agents - they interfere with the work we are doing and attempt to discredit
us. And Bill is correct, Nico has been doing so since the SF event several
years ago. So whereas we can't know for sure if they are agents, we can know
that their impact is similar. And so again I agree with Bill: the best we
can do is ignore their aggressive assaults, their attempts to discredit us, and
their endless demands on our time.

Ken Jenkins
And then, more attacks on Steve Jones:

Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nico Haupt <nicohaupt2@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Questions to Prof.Jones military research regarding his 'Dod background'
To: Steve Jones and SNIPPED List

Jeanette,

since Prof. Jones didn't answer on the point on your samples,
do you possibly have the time to tell us a little bit more about the background of this sample and
how you transfered them to Jones?

Also, is it possible that you still have some samples, which you could provide to some third
independent science team?

thx and regards

nico haupt aka ewing2001
ex-co founder ny911truth.org
Still more... it was really starting to look like a tag team COINTELPRO op:

From: "Gerard Holmgren" <holmgren@iinet.net.au>
To: "'Nico Haupt'" and SNIPPED List
Subject: More questions to Steven Jones
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:04:34 +1000

Steve,

These questions relate to your demolition research credentials. They are
presented in a simple yes /no format.

Each question is prefaced by one point of a summary of what I think we all
agree upon as the strongest points for demolition.

1. The free fall time issue.

Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have
made or published this observation ? Yes/no.

2. Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel.

Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have
made or published this observation ? Yes/no.

3. That asymmetrical damage cannot cause a symmetrical collapse over
such a height.

Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have
made or published this observation ? Yes/no.

4. The complete pulverization of the concrete

Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have
made or published this observation ? Yes/no.

5. That no steel framed skyscraper has ever before collapsed from fire

Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have
made or published this observation ? Yes/no.

6. The WTC 7 squib footage

Steven, do you claim to have discovered or been amongst the first to have
made available this footage ? Yes/no.

7. That there is no evidence of particularly hot fires in the WTC.

Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have
made or published this observation ? Yes/no.

8. The resistance paradox.

That being that even if one were to try to explain away the free fall time
as a miraculously unified failure of the entire structure, thus creating
negligible resistance to the fall, then it leaves nothing to explain the
huge clouds of fine dust being emitted as the building was still standing.
Only a controlled demolition explains both.

Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have
made or published this observation ? Yes/no.

9. That the early story was that the steel in the buildings actually melted
and that this story was changed only after publication of refutations
relating to point 1.


Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have
made or published this observation ? Yes/no.
Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:28:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nico Haupt
Subject: Re: More questions to Steven Jones
To: Gerard Holmgren and SNIPPED List

Some 9/11 truthlings refer to these kind of questions on plagiarism as an ego attitude but that
isn't even the real point and irresponsibility IMO.

The way i see it is once a group claims or deceives an audience that particulat questions and
answers did exist only since 2004, this complete movement looks like it came from nothing, which
let them look less credible but politically motivated.

That's on their own point on what is "damaging" and what isn't

If a real activist group would show real resitance, it would show historical references with years
(and months) of this movement.

9/11 research especially also scientific research was born immediately after 9/11 and the former
members of 9/11 science and justice alliance will not stop to speak out on this. Not so much about
getting a clear credit, but also to show a clear resitance of the very same persons who blocked the
evidence on controlled demolition but also manipulated particular 9/11 scholars not to look into the
evidence on 9/11TV Fakery/forensic no planes

We will hunt you even during WW3-5.
This orwellian movement at the top is poison for everyone's of our future and also continues to
allow the cultification at the bottom.

When do you finally rename it at least into Urantia 9/11 Animal Farm Truth???

And Steven, i also wait for 12 questions on my list, especially on your part on the pulverization
and spin for who did it???

You wanna name names of sandia?

If they don't harm you as you just claimed and with all your expertise from the past at TRIUMF +
Co., then bring it on!! - ;)

While we are don't let the "poor" Kevin Barrett do the only fallguy for your conspiracy theorist
crew, when will be the next TV appearance of Jones, where you will speak out that the US was behin
all this??

Hey, and what happened to your crew member Reynolds Dixon?
Was it also 'common decision' of st911 not to mention his name anymore??
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

Jones responded. Even though what I was seeing was indicative of COINTELPRO as it often manifests on the net, I was having a hard time believing that Gerard Holmgren was an "agent." After all, he HAD done some really good work. Same with the Web Fairy. I didn't know anything about Nico Haupt - had never heard of him before this list - but it looked like he and Holmgren and Webfairy were quite chummy.

Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:50:04 -0600
From: "Steve Jones"
To: "Gerard Holmgren" and SNIPPED List
Subject: Re: More questions to Steven Jones

In brief, my paper provides numerous references to past work (building
on past work as is common in science and engineering) -- and as
regards original contributions, I would cite in particular:

1. First analysis of solidified slag recovered from WTC, using X-ray
fluorescence, TEM and electron-microprobe methods. (I also worked to
obtain the samples!)

2. Experiments at BYU with molten aluminum and with thermite and
thermate, with results of those experiments as correlated to WTC
observations delineated in two scholarly papers.

3. First peer-reviewed paper giving a detailed critique of the FEMA
and NIST reports as regards the WTC collapses.

4. Initiation of the peer-reviewed Journal of 9/11 Studies
(Journalof911Studies.com) , and co-editor of that Journal. Recruited
the Editorial Board.

Sincerely,
Steven Jones
From: "Gerard Holmgren" <holmgren@iinet.net.au>
To: "'Steve Jones'" and SNIPPED List
Subject: RE: More questions to Steven Jones
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:57:34 +1000

Thanks you Steven.

We can take this a "no" answer to all 9 questions, I believe.

Correct me if I you wish to answer yes to any of them.
From: "Gerard Holmgren"
To: "'Gerard Holmgren'"and SNIPPED List
Subject: RE: More questions to Steven Jones
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:10:38 +1000

Steven. Let me repeat the points of demolition research/observation in you
which played *no played role whatsoever* .

Are you claiming that demolition is not a provable case through these
points?

You argue against them as proof of demolition ? I would be interested to
hear such arguments. Fire away.

Here again are the points which you apparently dispute as being proof of
demolition.

The free fall time issue.

Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel.

That asymmetrical damage cannot cause a symmetrical collapse over such a
height.

The complete pulverization of the concrete.

That no steel framed skyscraper has ever before collapsed from fire

The WTC 7 squib footage

That there is no evidence of particularly hot fires in the WTC.


The resistance paradox. That being that even if one were to try to explain
away the free fall time as a miraculously unified failure of the entire
structure, thus creating negligible resistance to the fall, then it leaves
nothing to explain the huge clouds of fine dust being emitted as the
building was still standing. Only a controlled demolition explains both.

That the early story was that the steel in the buildings actually melted
and that this story was changed only after publication of refutations
relating to point 1.
From: "Gerard Holmgren"
To: "'Gerard Holmgren'"and SNIPPED List
Subject: The silence of Steven Jones
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:52:05 +1000

Jones' silence may be just because he's away from email now, or hasn't yet
had time to reply.

Or it may be that we won't hear from from him at all. Because he's got
himself into an embarrassing spot of bother.

The exchange which has just gone on, leads to only two possible conclusions,
and only a reply from Jones can tell us which he endorses.

Conclusion 1. The demolition case was already proven as a scientific fact
before anyone had heard of Jones, and his contribution is zero. He is only
distracting from the core proof by fannying about with periperahl secondary
activities, namely

[[1. First analysis of solidified slag recovered from WTC, using X-ray
fluorescence, TEM and electron-microprobe methods. (I also worked to obtain
the samples!)

2. Experiments at BYU with molten aluminum and with thermite and thermate,
with results of those experiments as correlated to WTC observations
delineated in two scholarly papers.

3. First peer-reviewed paper giving a detailed critique of the FEMA and
NIST reports as regards the WTC collapses.

4. Initiation of the peer-reviewed Journal of 9/11 Studies
(Journalof911Studies.com) , and co-editor of that Journal. Recruited the
Editorial Board. ]]

Conclusion 2. Jones claims that the 9 points I raised (free fall time,
concrete pulverization etc), which had been widely circulated ijn the public
domain years before anyone had heard of Jones, do *not* prove the case, and
that we are all dependent on the 4 points above.

Which is it ?

In other words, Jones' paper is either 1) useless - in that it's got nothing
to do with the core proof, or it's 2)claiming that the case is *not* yet
proved, and that Jones alone holds the key.

If its conclusion 2, then I really am fascinated to hear Jones dispute the 9
points of proof which I raised.

If it's conclusion 1, then why all the gush about Jones' paper when it's
completely useless?
Meanwhile, self-promotion continued:

From: "Scott Summers" <inphoman@hotmail.com>
To: SNIPPED List
Subject: Ritter and McGovern Respond to 9/11 Truth Questioning
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 02:12:18 +0000

The Lead Article On http://www.911truth.org/ is titled.

Scott Ritter and Ray McGovern Respond to 9/11 Truth Questioning


Last year 9/11 gatekeeper Scott Ritter was given extensive information on
9/11-MIHOP including followup links to websites of Webster Tarpley, Michel
Chossoduvsky, Ralph Schoenman.

Eric Hufschmid has a good anaysis why a major American figure like Ritter
with so much visibility in the "mainstream" alternative media still refuses
to touch 9/11 truth is a significant way.

http:(2slash)www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_RitterMainPage.html
And the flaming ramped up a notch...

Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:58:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nico Haupt
Subject: Re: [911InsideJobbers] Re: Nico Haupt's accusations of Steven Jones - Is Haupt is conintellpro?
To: 911InsideJobbers@yahoogroups.com, and SNIPPED List

I think Bill's own transparency speaks for itself.

Bill, formerly buddy of Mike Ruppert WAS the one who sabotaged ny911truth.org from the beginning,
after Angie and me created the group.

He dictated messages on signs and banners and tried to blackmail us with his 'free donations'.
At the same time he forced us to support Nic Levis, which we refused to do so.

WHY?

Because this Levis WAS against the evidence on controlled demolition.
When the infiltrators took over, even dragged untruther Scott Ritter into our agenda and smeared
veteran researcher Jared Israel, we decided to leave the group in spring 2004

Since i already responded on Bill's orwellian drivel in other lists over the last few days, i don't
need to repeat everything again.

Just very funny is, that Bill STILL doesn't get another historic detail straight, though we
immediately told him , just more for fun, that someone else, but NOT angie and me was questioning
Douglas association with Soros.

Every time when i correct this in the last 2, 3 years the same fruitloop response from Bill will be:
So you are accusing me of a Soros agent?

No i'm not 'accusing' you of a 'Soros agent'. This silly association is even outdated by now and i
told you several times, that i can't even recall if Jeff Strahl critized you on this or whoever,
back in 2004.

I gave a damn that time i still give a damn now, coz we focused on Ruppert and Hence that time as
the much more damaging trouble makers, not "2004 newbie" Douglas and his silly pro-McKinney limited
hangout campaign.


Meanwhile in 2006 Bill Douglas, the idiot is btw. promoting neonazis by putting attention in mass
mails on 4 year old dried out movies, just because he's has no brain cells.

well and the very same orwellian 9/11 truthlings are telling US what is damaging for an alleged
'truth' movement??
From: Rick Rajter
Subject: Re: The silence of Steven Jones
Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:02:14 -0400
To: Gerard Holmgren and SNIPPED List

I respectfully disagree on one point, mainly the utility of Steven's
paper.

It is true, that in version 1.0, there was essentially no new
material and it was more a summary over what was already known
re:demolition. If he was claiming that this analysis was original,
then I concur that this is plagiarism (I do not have the 1.0 version,
so I can't confirm).

It was essentially a overview of the field, plus a "seal of approval"
by someone with credentials... and since Americans are so darn ga-ga
over credentials and "experts" and all that title worshipping BS, it
forced people to recheck their assumptions.

I can understand that, because I've seen my name thrown around and
abused simply because I'm from "MIT" and therefore must know what I'm
talking about, as if truth was handed down to me in stone tablets by
God himself. Yes, I essentially just looked on the internet and
found that everything was solved except for misc details... and I
put it into my own words and repackaged.

So did Morgan on his famous "Why did the Towers Collapse" article
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reynolds/reynolds12.html

Which admittedly got lots of people thinking on the subject. It was
"original" research in the sense of his own discovery, and he has a
tremendous way of explaining the evidence in a methodical way that
ordinary people can understand. He obviously linked to all sorts of
other research and got others to look at the material.

Now I do agree that the analysis Steven added (XPS of steel, molten
aluminum experiments) didn't really "prove" controlled demolition
because the case was already solved. In a sense, they add to the
case but we certainly shouldn't be claiming "Steven showed some
thermite residues, that does it, I now believe!" That, of course,
would be just silly.

The other problem I see is that now all "Truth" has to be filtered
through Steven and other higher ups. If Steven doesn't support
something, it's divisive or it might not be true because he would
have already publicly stated it, etc. We all fall into this title
worshipping nightmare where we all run to Steven or Griffin or others
to just give it their "blessing" and then we can talk about it.

If we had to wait for a physicist or mechanical engineer to support a
controlled demolition before publicly talking about it, we would all
be sitting on our thumbs still. But or better or worse, the Jones
paper at least forces other academics to take notice... and again,
most sheeple, because they are trained in public schools to do so,
look to authority for truth.

Such is life...

Cheers

-Rick Rajter
From: Rick Rajter
Subject: Re: The silence of Steven Jones
Date sent: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:18:57 -0400
To: Gerard Holmgren and SNIPPED List

Let me clarify my last e-mail, lest people misconstrue my point.


Let us say, that the weapons used to take down the WTC towers were
exotic, and not just (or at all) thermite. For example, there is
both a physical basis for what is called "scalar" weaponry. Now
let's say someone like Webfairy or anyone, who has done their
homework, comes out and says "it wasn't thermite, it was X, Y, or Z".

People then scoff at Webfairy and say "silly Rosalee, why are you
looking into all this mumbo jumbo when it's obvious that it was just
run of the mill explosives". Let's ask someone like Steven Jones
about it!

Now Steven, likely doesn't even know what the technology is, probably
would say no to their use. Now everyone in the 9/11 truth community
would jump up and down and say "the problem is solved, Steven has
already said so". Etc.

So in that sense, I can certainly understand any researcher who is
frustrated and pissed off when limited hangout-ers run to Griffin and
Steven to see if they support anything controversial (like exotic
weaponry).

Because if we do that... we might as well turn to "Distinguished MIT
professor Tom Eagar" and ask him if there was a controlled
demolition. When he says "no", does that mean the controlled demo
evidence is a lie? Certainly not. He could just be ignorant of the
issues (not bloodly likely, considering my e-mail war with him). Or
he could be just a lying POS. Or disinfo, or bribed, or whatever.


That is my biggest worry about this "movement". That and the "well
the truth can hurt us" excuses. That is the same reason why
controlled demolition was not discussed heavily among the movement
until early 2005 ish... it was "too divisive" and controversial.

Let us not play these mind games...

-RR
From: "Gerard Holmgren" <holmgren@iinet.net.au>
To: "'Rick Rajter'" and SNIPPED List
Subject: Jones' Plagiarism
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:06:12 +1000

Rick Rajiter wrote in relation to Jones' paper

[[If he was claiming that this analysis was original, then I concur that
> this is plagiarism (I do not have the 1.0 version, so I can't
> confirm). ]]

He did not specifically claim it to be original, but he notably failed to
credit the work of Jeff King or Jim McMichael or Rosalee Grable, thus
certinaly creating the impression that it was is own work.

In terms of crediting my work on the free fall, he probably didn't know that
it was mine, because instead of writing it up as an organized article I
naively just gave that away informally to anyone who was prepared to say it.

Nevertheless, he did fail to mention that it had been out for years. Jeff
King and Peter Meyer for example both published Free fall stuff in 2002.

There is other stuff - like no building having previously collapsed in such
a manner - which probably cant be traced to one specific originator, but it
had been out for years.

In short , Jones created the impression that it was all either his work or
Hoffman's - the only person he credited - and Hoffman himself plagiarized
everything.

I don't know the fine technicalities of rules on academic plagiarism well
enough to know whether this is technically indictable as such, but it is
certainly plagiarism if we use the word in more general sense.

And once he hit the media, he ramped yup the plagiarism campaign to a more
overt status. Just like Griffin.

See my article

" Scholars for 911Plagiarism and disinformation"

http://members.iinet.net.au/~holmgren/scholars.html
From: "Angie"
To: "'Scott Summers'" and SNIPPED List
Subject: RE: Ritter and McGovern Respond to 9/11 Truth Questioning
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 02:30:06 -0400

Scott Ritter is a spook. But don't take my word for it. You can read the
evidence at the link I've provided below. The 911 Truth Movement should
have nothing to do with him. Our experience has shown he knows all about
9/11, but that doesn't effect how he plays it. I fought very hard, but
lost, against his participating at a 911 Conference held at Riverside church
in New York City, in 2004 I think it was, actually left ny911truth.org over
it as well as because of the dishonest manipulations done by others around
having him be a speaker even though it was clearly against the interest of
911 truth, essentially sabotaging the event we had worked so very hard for,
in this and other manners. This is what he ended up saying at Riverside
that night - and again this was on a 911-Truth Panel Program!!: that it was
acts of desperation that led the hijackers to get on the airplanes, and he
condemned such terrorist acts. Not a hint of gov't complicity in 9-11 was
contained in his remarks, just a re-affirmation of the official cover story.
Ritter also then noted that it is not for the soldier to decide whether
they're engaged in a just or unjust war; a soldier's role is to just follow
orders; its only for the citizens to debate whether soldiers should be put
in harm's way. And he indicated something about himself (more than his
usual 'I'm a registered Republican, self-confessed conservative who voted
for Bush, and who "interfaced with the cia and intelligence services of the
world") which I don't think anyone can quarrel with: he said, and I quote:
"I am a tool for my country to be used as my country sees fit".' Links to
the evidence are below.

Angie

How the lies of Scott Ritter Reveal the Strategic Goals of the Bizarre Iraq
War - A Series, http://www.tenc.net/#series

And here's an index to the series:

Part 1: Hawk-to-Dove Scott Ritter challenges Emperor's
Clothes to Prove he's a Liar. EC accepts.

Part 2: The Source of the Claim that Iraq had Nuclear Weapons was...Scott
Ritter.

Part 3: Reader Says Emperor's Clothes all wrong on Ritter's Nuke Statements;
Jared Israel Responds.

Part 4: Readers ask, "Why this focus on Scott Ritter?" Jared Israel replies.

Part 5: Scott Ritter Says, 'The Neocons Made me do it!'
by Jared Israel
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

At this point, I could no longer stay silent.

From: Laura Knight-Jadczyk
To: ,@LIST
Subject: Re: More questions to Steven Jones
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 09:30:56 +0200



On 26 Jul 2006, at 10:04, Gerard Holmgren wrote:

> These questions relate to your demolition research credentials. They are
> presented in a simple yes /no format.
>
>
>
> Each question is prefaced by one point of a summary of what I think we all
> agree upon as the strongest points for demolition.
>
>
>
> 1. The free fall time issue.
>
>
>
> Steven, do you claim to be the first person or amongst the first to have made
> or published this observation ? Yes/no.

Mr. Holmgren, these questions have nothing to do with "demolition research
credentials."

It strikes me that your issue is that you were saying certain things
"before" Professor Jones said them in a professional paper and that you
aren't getting credit for being "first."

Well, please tell us your credentials, that is, your CV so that we can
understand why the larger public - which is, after all, the audience we want
the truth to reach - should consider what you say to be factual against the
many experts that have been bought and paid for to assert that 911 happened
just as the administration said it did.

You see, the value of Professor Jones is that he IS AN EXPERT and his expert
work counters the work of the coopted experts.

The fact is, that until enough EXPERTS start saying things that you have
said, that other non-experts have said, it isn't going to amount to a hill
of beans.

This is something you are just going to have to "eat." Ego has no place in
this movement. NONE.

We are all faced with one of the most outrageous crimes in recent times, a
crime that was committed with the deliberate intention of depriving the
masses of ordinary people of their freedom and, in many cases, their lives.

In short, we are fighting for our LIVES. So, please, get over yourself.

What we need is MORE experts - those accepted in the minds of the wider
public as EXPERTS - to have the courage Professor Jones has demonstrated.

Let me tell you something, on September 14, 2001 I wrote a little opinion
piece suggesting that Israel was the primary beneficiary of 911 - with the
U.S. Neocons coming in second.

Back then, pretty much at "ground zero," I was about the only person saying
that. Since then, a LOT more evidence has come to light which
circumstantially PROVES Israel's (MOSSADs) primary role in 911.

Do you think I care that no one gives me credit for saying that?

Of course not. Fact is, what I wrote was just an opinion based on asking
the questions "cui bono? cui prodest?" I am not an expert.

So again, please, get over yourself here.

Laura
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

Well, I must have lit a fuse with my post. I immediately received another private email:

Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 01:35:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Hugh G. S. Camster"
Subject: Re: More questions to Steven Jones
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk

Could you please provide this 'evidence has come to light which
circumstantially PROVES Israel's (MOSSADs) primary role in 911.'

What exactly is this 'evidence'? The 'Art Students'? Urban Moving Systems? Dov Zakheim and System
Planning Corporation? Zim shipping? Odigo Messaging? Army College report? DEA report? Dancing
Mossadlings? 4000 jews that skipped work at the WTC on 9/11?

Enquiring Minds Want To Know.

Why do I have the distinct feeling that this is a 'Crossing The Rubes I've Conned' redux, which will
carry as much weight as Ruppert's assertations that it was; "Dick Cheney, in the secret bunker, with
the magic transmitter."

You are like Gretel gathering up the bread crumbs, only these crumbs won't lead home as they were
left PURPOSELY to lead you astray, that is why you were able to find them.
Meanwhile, I wasn't done with Holmgren and Haupt just yet. It was with growing horror that I had been observing the antics of these so-called researchers and alleged representatives of all those people who want the truth. If this was the vanguard of people who claimed to be looking after our rights and freedoms and to be seeking to establish truth in our reality, we were in BIG TROUBLE. Not a single one of them seemed to have a clue about the deadly seriousness of the situation:

From: Laura Knight-Jadczyk <lark2@cassiopaea.com>
To: @LIST
Subject: Re: More questions to Steven Jones
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:35:43 +0200
On 25 Jul 2006, at 17:28, Nico Haupt wrote:

> Some 9/11 truthlings refer to these kind of questions on plagiarism as an ego
> attitude but that isn't even the real point and irresponsibility IMO.


Please tell us what are your credentials, what establishes your expert
status so that we may accept your opinion as "weighted"?

I read your "indictment" of Professor Jones and I'm sorry, it is little more
than an opinion piece. Ms. Grable refers to it as "facts," which suggests
that some people have different ideas about what facts really are.

Let me try to bring some clarity here. But, before I do, let me establish
my credentials - or lack thereof:

I am not an expert, I am a writer. However, in my writing, I do extensive,
in-depth research, consult experts, quote experts, and collate expert
opinions. There are a number of world class experts who consult me for my
opinion. I also worked with experts in psychology for 20 years as a
certified hypnotherapist and raised 5 children very successfully.

Now, that's out of the way, back to the issue at hand:

People on this list seem to be concerned with the term "Truth". But while
using it - do we fully understand each other? Do we have in mind the same
thing?

Since Truth is one of the most important concepts and one of the most
important factors that will lead us out of this mess, it may serve us well
to have a compass against which "colinearity" can be measured and non-
colinearity discerned.

"What is truth?" is a question that has been asked for millennia. As we
ordinarily use it, the adjective "true" means "an assertion that corresponds
to the facts". More precisely, the word "true" denotes the validity of an
intended (or expected) correspondence between a representation and what it
represents. There are many interesting essays that deal with this question
on the internet.

In this one, http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~ursa/philos/cert04.htm
an example is given of a map being "true to geography" because "the lines
of the plan exhibit approximately the same two-dimensional shape as
streets". A painting is said to be "true to life" if it accurately shows to
any viewer how something really looks when you see it with your eyes. This
essay also suggests that "truth involves two 'systems', purportedly linked
by a 'mapping'."

So, maybe we can agree that when we are seeking truth, we are really trying
to establish "the validity of an intended (or expected) correspondence
between a representation and what it represents."

This is where we run into our biggest problem. In a cover-up situation,
there are often many false leads that are planted so as to act as a
correspondence between a lie and what that lie asserts. An example is the
passport of one of the alleged Muslim hijackers that miraculously survived
the destruction of the WTC, to be found in the rubble...

So, obviously, we cannot rely solely on the above definition of Truth.

This leads to the next problem: lack of adequate psychological knowledge.
And here I don't mean the knowledge that one must acquire to be a
psychologist, but more like basic understanding of how the majority of
people think and feel and how they can be manipulated.

Aldous Huxley once commented that the two most important factors for
achieving truth are a good, wide, intelligence and good will (charity).

There are many people in the world who are very smart but have no good will.
We can see examples in the Neocons. Some of them are very smart but evil.

There are also many people who have a lot of good will, but not a lot of
intelligence. Huxley pointed out that such people can be easily led astray
and led to do things and think things and say things that are quite damaging
to truth.

So, the problem with this lack of adequate psychological knowledge on the
part of the masses of humanity - and that extends right into the 911 Truth
movement - is a great barrier to arriving at the Truth.

Paraphrasing psychologist Andrew Lobaczewski:

During good times, people lose sight of the need for thinking, introspection, knowledge of others,
and an understanding of life. When things are "good," people ask themselves whether it is worth it
to ponder human nature and flaws in the personality (one's own, or that of another). In good times, entire generations can grow up with no understanding of the creative meaning of suffering since they have never experienced it themselves. When all the joys of life are there for the taking, mental effort to understand science and the laws of nature - to acquire knowledge that may not be directly related to accumulating stuff - seems like
pointless labor. Being "healthy minded," and positive - a good sport with never a discouraging word
- is seen as a good thing, and anyone who predicts dire consequences as the result of such insouciance is labeled a wet-blanket or a killjoy.

Perception of the truth about reality, especially a real understanding of
human nature in all it's ranges and permutations, ceases to be a virtue to
be acquired. Thoughtful doubters are "meddlers" who can't leave well enough
alone. "Don't fix it if it ain't broke." This attitude leads to an
impoverishment of psychological knowledge including the capacity to
differentiate the properties of human nature and personality, and the
ability to mold healthy minds creatively.

The cult of power thus supplants the mental and moral values so essential
for maintaining peace by peaceful means. A nation's enrichment or involution
as regards its psychological world-view could be considered an indicator of
whether its future be good or bad.

During good times, the search for the meaning of life, the truth of our
reality, becomes uncomfortable because it reveals inconvenient factors.
Unconscious elimination of data which are, or appear to be, inexpedient,
begins to be habitual, a custom accepted by entire societies. The result is
that any thought processes based on such truncated information cannot bring
correct conclusions. This then leads to substitution of convenient lies to
the self to replace uncomfortable truths thereby approaching the boundaries
of phenomena which should be viewed as psychopathological.

When bad times arrive and people are overwhelmed by an excess of evil, they
must gather all their physical and mental strength to fight for existence
and protect human reason. The search for some way out of difficulties and
dangers rekindles long-buried powers or discretion. Such people have the
initial tendency to rely on force in order to counteract the threat; they
may, for instance, become "trigger happy" or dependent upon armies. Slowly
and laboriously, however, they discover the advantages conferred by mental
effort; improved understanding of psychological situations in particular,
better differentiation of human characters and personalities, and finally,
comprehension of one's adversaries.

It is clear that America has experienced a long period of "good times" for
most of its existence, (no matter how many people they had to oppress or
kill to do so), but particularly so during the 50 years preceding September
11, 2001. During that 50 years, several generations of children were born,
and the ones that were born at the beginning of that time, who have never
known "bad times," are now at an age where they want to "enjoy" the benefits
they have accumulated. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that is going to
happen; 9/11 has changed everything so profoundly that it looks like there
will be no enjoyment by anyone for a very, very long time.

How could this happen?

The answer is that a few generation's worth of "good times" results in the
above described societal deficits regarding psychological skills and moral
criticism. Long periods of preoccupation with the self and "accumulating
benefits" for the self, diminish the ability to accurately read the
environment and other people.

Lobaczewski writes: The psychological features of each such crisis are
unique to the culture and the time, but one common denominator that exists
at the beginning of all such "bad times" is an exacerbation of society's
hysterical condition. The emotionalism dominating in individual, collective,
and political life, combined with the subconscious selection and
substitution of data in reasoning, lead to individual and national egotism.
The mania for taking offense at the drop of a hat provokes constant
retaliation, taking advantage of hyperirritability and hypocriticality on
the part of others. It is this feature, this hystericization of society,
that enables pathological plotters, snake charmers, and other primitive
deviants to act as essential factors in the processes of the origination of
evil on a macro-social scale.

We are facing just such an exacerbation of society's hysterical condition
and this MUST be considered in any attempt to garner the support of the
wider community of humanity. Without their support, no amount of "911 Truth
Seeking" will amount to a hill of beans.

We can conjecture that if one psychologist knows the above, a few others
must know it as well. And maybe some of them work for the government that
has taken such advantage of 911? If we think about it, it becomes quite
logical that, if they know these things then they may very wll have been
complicit in 911 for the very purpose of "exacerbating society's hysterical
condition." As Lobaczewski notes, it is the hysterization of society that
enables pathological plotters to basically take over.

Who, exactly, are the "pathological plotters," and what can motivate such
individuals during times that are generally understood by others as "good"
to do things that will bring on "bad times." If times are "good," why does
anyone want to plot and generate evil? Especially since it is obvious to
anyone with two neurons firing that such activity will (and has
historically) led to the destruction of the plotters themselves?

Well, certainly, the current US administration has come up with an answer:
"They hate us because of our freedoms." This is a prime example of
"selection and substitution of data in reasoning" which is willingly and
gladly accepted as an explanation by the public because of their deficits of
psychological skills and moral criticism. The truth is somewhat different.

Unfortunately, after so long a time of being subjected to lies and
disinformation, the likelihood of society being able to overcome the social
and cultural programming is difficult, but not impossible. And that is where
things like COINTELPRO come into play: psyops agents are masters of
triggering emotional programs that put people back to sleep. As a student on
the subject, Robert Canup, has said, 99% of all of the problems confronting
mankind can be traced to a single cause: the problem of the plausible lie.
And the plausible lie is what COINTELPRO is all about.

Plausible lies are monstrous things propagated by evil people for the
express purpose of deceiving good people into doing the will of those who do
not have their best interests at heart. It's that simple. The most powerful
of these lies are so plausible that nobody even dreams about questioning
their validity.

Allow me to quote Richard Dolan - a qualified expert on cold-war diplomacy -
on this point:

The very label [Conspiracy Theory] serves as an automatic dismissal,
as though no one ever acts in secret. Let us bring some perspective and
common sense to this issue.

The United States comprises large organizations - corporations,
bureaucracies, "interest groups," and the like - which are conspiratorial by
nature. That is, they are hierarchical, their important decisions are made
in secret by a few key decision-makers, and they are not above lying about
their activities. Such is the nature of organizational behavior.
"Conspiracy," in this key sense, is a way of life around the globe.

Within the world's military and intelligence apparatuses, this tendency
is magnified to the greatest extreme. [...]

Anyone who has lived in a repressive society knows that official
manipulation of the truth occurs daily. But societies have their many and
their few. In all times and all places, it is the few who rule, and the few
who exert dominant influence over what we may call official culture. - All
elites take care to manipulate public information to maintain existing
structures of power. It's an old game.

America is nominally a republic and free society, but in reality an
empire and oligarchy, vaguely aware of its own oppression, within and
without. I have used the term "national security state" to describe its
structures of power. It is a convenient way to express the military and
intelligence communities, as well as the worlds that feed upon them, such as
defense contractors and other underground, nebulous entities. Its
fundamental traits are secrecy, wealth, independence, power, and duplicity.

Nearly everything of significance undertaken by America's military and
intelligence community in the past half-century has occured in secrecy. The
undertaking to build an atomic weapon, better known as the Manhattan
Project, remains the great model for all subsequent activities. For more
than two years, not a single member of Congress even knew about it although
its final cost exceeded two billion dollars.

During and after the Second World War, other important projects, such as
the development of biological weapons, the importation of Nazi scientists,
terminal mind-control experiments, nationwide interception of mail and cable
transmissions of an unwitting populace, infiltration of the media and
universities, secret coups, secret wars, and assassinations all took place
far removed not only from the American public, but from most members of
Congress and a few presidents. Indeed, several of the most powerful
intelligence agencies were themselves established in secrecy, unknown by the
public or Congress for many years.

Since the 1940s, the US Defense and Intelligence establishment has had
more money at its disposal than most nations. In addition to official
dollars, much of the money is undocumented. From its beginning, the CIA was
engaged in a variety of off-the-record "business" activities that generated
large sums of cash. The connections of the CIA with global organized crime
(and thus de facto with the international narcotics trade) has been well
established and documented for many years. - Much of the original money to
run the American intelligence community came from very wealthy and
established American families, who have long maintained an interest in
funding national security operations important to their interests.

In theory, civilian oversight exists over the US national security
establishment. The president is the military commander-in-chief. Congress
has official oversight over the CIA. The FBI must answer to the Justice
Department. In practice, little of this applies. One reason has to do with
secrecy. [...]

A chilling example of such independence occurred during the 1950s, when
President Eisenhower effectively lost control of the US nuclear arsenal. The
situation deteriorated so much that during his final two years in office,
Eisenhower asked repeatedly for an audience with the head of Strategic Air
Command to learn what America's nuclear retaliatory plan was. What he
finally learned in 1960, his final year in office, horrified him: half of
the Northern Hemisphere would be obliterated.

If a revered military hero such as Eisenhower could not control
America's nuclear arsenal, nor get a straight answer from the Pentagon, how
on earth could Presidents Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, or Nixon regarding
comparable matters?

Secrecy, weath and independence add up to power. Through the years, the
national security state has gained access to the world's most sophisticated
technology, sealed off millions of acres of land from public access or
scrutiny, acquired unlimited snooping ability with US borders and beyond,
conducted overt or clandestine actions against other nations, and prosecuted
wars without serious media scrutiny. Domestically, it maintains influence
over elected officials and communities hoping for some of the billions of
defense dollars.

Deception is the key element of warfare, and when winning is all that
matters, the conventional morality held by ordinary people becomes an
impediment. When taken together, the examples of official duplicity form a
nearly single totality. They include such choice morsels as the phony war
crisis of 1948, the fabricated missile gap claimed by the air force during
the 1950s, the carefully managed events leading to the Gulf of Tonkin
resolution...

The secrecy stems from a pervasive and fundamental element of life in
our world, that those who are at the top of the heap will always take
whatever steps are necessary to maintain the status quo.

keptics often ask, "Do you really think the government could hide
something like this for so long?" The question itself reflects ignorance of
the reality that secrecy is a way of life in the National Security State.
Actually though, the answer is yes, and no.

Yes, in that cover-ups are standard operating procedure, frequently
unknown to the public for decades, becoming public knowledge by a mere roll
of the dice. But also no, in that ... information has leaked out from the
very beginning. It is impossible to shut the lid completely. The key lies in
neutralizing and discrediting unwelcomed information, sometimes through
official denial, other times through proxies in the media.

[E]vidence [of the true nature of the nature of National Security State
and how it really operates] derived from a grass roots level is unlikely to
survive its inevitable conflict with official culture, [created by
COINTELPRO].

And this is the problem we face: a MONSTROUS structure of Plausible Lies
implemented for over 50 years - covering an entire generation of U.S.
Citizens.

In short, people believe what is "familiar," or what is part of a careful,
long term program of familiarization of lies that become plausible simply
because they are familiar.

Now, what we are dealing with in terms of trying to expose the TRUTH of 911
is what could be called an "implausible truth."

When science first discoverd that solid matter was mostly empty space, many
people reacted to this truth - this unfamiliar fact of our reality - with
outrage. Debates over the "solidity" of matter and "kicking rocks" raged for
years. It took a very long time, and a lot of work to gradually make others
aware of this truth in order to make this "implausible" fact part of our
awareness.

It is just such a battle we face, and part of that battle MUST include
helping people to understand the nature of the kinds of people who could do
such a thing as 911.

I'm sure that all of you have encountered this problem: people just won't
listen because they say "Oh, nobody could do something like THAT! Nobody is
THAT evil!" and so on. They are brainwashed to think that their government
is, effectively, "Big Brother," and that this is a GOOD thing!!!!

Such is the power of the Plausible Lie.

Learning about evil in our society, how it operates on the macro-social
scale, is considered by many to be "unpleasant." They don't want to go
there. It is too disturbing and even frightening. More than that, talking
about these things - to talk about evil as though it were a REAL concept is
something we have been programmed to NOT do! As psychologist George Simon
says:

...[W]e've been pre-programmed to believe that people only exhibit
problem behaviors when they're "troubled" inside or anxious about something.
We've also been taught that people aggress only when they're attacked in
some way. So, even when our gut tells us that somebody is attacking us and
for no good reason, we don't readily accept the notion. We usually start to
wonder what's bothering the person so badly "underneath it all" that's
making them act in such a disturbing way. We may even wonder what we may
have said or done that "threatened" them. We almost never think that they
might be fighting simply to get something, have their way, or gain the upper
hand. So, instead of seeing them as merely fighting, we view them as
primarily hurting in some way. [...]

The legacy of Sigmund Freud's work has a lot to do with this. Freud's
theories (and the theories of others who built upon his work) heavily
influenced the psychology of personality for a long time. Elements of the
classical theories of personality found their way into many disciplines
other than psychology as well as into many of our social institutions and
enterprises. [...]

The malignant impact of overgeneralizing Freud's observations about a
small group of overly inhibited individuals into a broad set of assumptions
about the causes of psychological ill-health in everyone cannot be
overstated.[...]

We need a completely different theoretical framework if we are to truly
understand, deal with, and treat the kinds of people who fight too much as
opposed to those who cower or "run" too much. [George K. Simon, Jr., "In
Sheep's Clothing"]
Now, let me recommend that those of you who are interested in Truth take a
look at my blog post on "How to Spot a COINTELPRO Agent."
http://laura-knight-jadczyk.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-to-spot-cointelpro-agents.html

Keep in mind that the booklet I am quoting from there was compiled by
activists from earlier days that had direct experiences where they were able
to see only afterward how they had been duped and sidelined. My grandmother
always said: "A smart man learns from his mistakes; a genius learns from the
mistakes of others." In the case of COINTELPRO, some of those activists were
smart, but not geniuses. Most of them got "taken out", and some of them
literally had their lives completely destroyed because they were sincere and
stubborn. The material in that booklet is priceless today because those who
compiled it paid a high price to learn those things. Let's try to be
geniuses here.

As Robert Canup writes, we face a particular, even monstrous, problem in our world: that most of
what we know or think we know is based on plausible lies. A person who is sincere and speaks the
truth really has almost no chance against a plausible liar. Yes, I know that goes against everything we have been taught from childhood in the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave," but it is all too sadly true. We have
been taught that "the Truth will always win" and that "anybody who believes a lie about you wasn't your friend to begin with", and a whole host of other platitudes that actually would work in a different world: a world
run by people who tell the truth!

But since our world is run by people who lie for a living, you might expect
that they have set things up so that liars will always win. And that is, oh
so sadly, the case.

"Our culture agrees on the signs of lying. Ask anyone how to tell if
someone is lying and they will tell you that they can tell by "lack of eye
contact, nervous shifting, or picking at one's clothes." Psychologist Anna
Salter writes with dry humor: "This perception is so widespread I have had
the fantasy that, immediately upon birth, nurses must take newborns and
whisper in their ears, "Eye contact. It's a sign of truthfulness." [Anna C.
Salter, Ph.D.]
The problem is, if there is a psychopath - or those with related
characteropathies - who doesn't know hot to keep good eye contact when
lying, they haven't been born. Eye contact is "universally known" to be a
sign of truth-telling. The problem is liars will fake anything that it is
possible to fake, so in reality, eye contact is absolutely NOT a sign of
truth telling.

The practiced liar: a category of liar that even experts find it difficult
to detect.

Problem is, even when dealing with people who are not practiced liars, such
as college students who have volunteered for a research study of lying, most
observers are not as good as they think in detecting deception. The research
shows consistently that most people - even most professional groups such as
police and psychologists - have no better than a chance ability to detect
deception. Flipping a coin would serve as well. ...

The ability to charm, to be likeable, to radiate sincerity and truthfulness,
is crucial to the successful liar - and they practice assiduously.

"Niceness is a decision," writes Gavin De Becker in "The Gift of Fear." It
is a "strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait." ...

Despite the decades of research that have demonstrated that people cannot
reliably tell whose lying and who isn't, most people believe they can. There
is something so fundamentally threatening about the notion that we cannot
really know whether or not to trust someone that it is very difficult to get
anyone - clinicians, citizens, even police - to take such results
seriously. [Salter]
This is an issue that will never die. It seems impossible to convince people
that private behavior cannot be predicted from public behavior. Kind,
nonviolent individuals behave well in public, but so do predators, rapists,
murderers, pedophiles and COINTELPRO agents who help to shape the culture in
which we live.

No, they weren't always called COINTELPRO, but the principle is the same. It
has been used since time immemorial.

The earliest written records we have are of "clappers" in the audiences of
theaters in ancient Greece. What do you think the term "Greek Chorus" means?

The chorus offered background and summary information to help the audience
follow the performance, commented on main themes, and showed how an ideal
audience might react to the drama as it was presented. They also represent
the general populace of any particular story." Discussion boards are ideal
formats for "Greek Choruses" as they can be vectored to "show how the ideal
audience ought to react," and to "represent the general populace." In this
way, the illusion can be created of a concensus when, in fact, such a
concensus may not exist.

Polls are another example of Greek Choruses or Clappers.

We have exactly that in the present day in the form of the mainstream media.
Did you think that, with the power of the internet to reach millions of
people that the "powers that be" would have ignored the necessity of
installing a "Greek Chorus" on the net " in the form of the "Alternative
Media" and even the so-called 911 Truth Movement???

Consider our legal system. Here you first have to ask yourself just what
kind of people were in charge of the creation and shaping of our "social
norms." Now sure, everybody will agree with the sayings that "you can't
trust a politician," or "power corrupts" and so on, but have you ever really
stopped to think about that and what it must really mean?

Most people have heard of Ted Bundy; the serial killer who was executed in
Florida several years ago. Not many people are aware of the fact that Bundy
was studying to become a prosecutor, and that eventually he hoped to become
a judge. Those that do know that fact see it as some strangely ironic twist -
an inexplicable quirk in Bundy's bizarre makeup. It never seems to occur to
most people that the perfect place for a psychopathic serial killer to hide
in society is as a prosecutor or a judge; but I assure you that it occurs to
the Psychopaths of the world. ... The ONLY difference between them and Ted
Bundy is that they were able to control outward signs of their Psychopathy
until they achieved their goal of being in a position of authority. [Canup]
Richard Dolan has pointed out that those at the top will ALWAYS take whatever measures necessary to
stay at the top, and when knowledge is power, that means that they will make sure that they are in
control of what people know or think they know. The sad fact is that as a society gets larger and more competitive, individuals become more anonymous and more Machiavellian. Social stratification and segregation
leads to feelings of inferiority, pessimism and depression among the have-nots, and this promotes the use of "cheating strategies" in life which then makes the environment more adaptive for psychopathy in general. Such individuals may begin their lives in the lower socio-economic levels, but they often rise to the top. Psychopathic behavior seems to be on the rise because of the very nature of American capitalistic society. The great hustlers,
charmers, and self-promoters in the sales fields are perfect examples of where the psychopath can thrive. The entertainment industry, the sports industry, the corporate world in a Capitalistic system, are all areas where
psychopaths naturally rise to the top. Psychopaths seek power over others, it's that simple, and they gravitate to any field where there is power: medicine, law, industry, politics. It has always been that way; this is
nothing new. Indeed, they comprise a very small segment of the population with an extremely large influence. It is due to this influence and the plausible lie that they can magnetize normal, decent people to follow them. They
can make social conditions bad so that people feel oppressed and abused, and then they can easily blame it on someone else and agitate the people to go after and kill others based on such lies. Machiavelli discussed this
sort of system plainly and openly and it has been the system of power since Cain killed Abel.

So, consider the idea that the ideas behind our social and cultural systems - including the legal
system - were created by people whose agenda was to control society so that they could stay on top.
And think about all the many ways they might go about doing that.

These are the same people who set up the legal system so that people would "get what they
deserved"

Now, just think about that for a moment.

Imagine that you are a person at the top of the heap who knows that if you really set up a system
where people got what they really deserved, you, yourself, would be instantly replaced - out the
door in an instant! And so, if you are not just intent on staying on top and holding power, but cunning also, you will do
everything in your power to insure that you and your kind are in charge of setting up that system,
and that you remain in charge of it. You would make certain that evil was blended into the social and cultural concepts so seamlessly that nobody would ever notice.

And that is, quite literally, what happened. The individuals "at the top of the heap," who had
gotten there by being the most vile and rapacious, then set about figuring out ways to deceive the
masses all the while keeping their favor and adulation. They knew they had to make laws to keep order, and they knew they had to make those laws seem fair and reasonable to the masses of people or they would lose control.
Losing control was the thing to be feared as anyone who has read The Prince by Machiavelli realizes.

And so, Machiavellian manipulators at the top of the heap were deeply
involved in the formation of our cultural and social norms, including our
legal system.

In the earliest days of this "legal system" there was a form of "justice"
called "trial by ordeal". An example of trial by ordeal was holding a red
hot iron to a defendant's tongue. The plausible lie used to justify this
behavior was: if the defendant was telling a lie they would have a dry mouth
and would be burned by the iron - while a truthful person would have a moist
mouth and would be protected.

The fact is a NORMAL person who is telling the truth would most definitely
have a dry mouth from fear, while a psychopath, who is incapable of feeling
fear, would be the one with the moist mouth!!!

Now, just think about that for a few minutes.

(You might want to read my article on Ponerology
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm
and other articles on psychopathy,
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm
which quote extensively from several clinical psychologists on the subject
of psychopathy just to get a real handle on the issue we are facing.)

Now, our current legal system is descended from "trial by ordeal" - and
really isn't much different though it is much cleverer and simply not as
obviously evil as that one was. You have already read a few examples above
of just how the system works. As Anna Salter said, if she was accused of a
crime, she would rather have a good lawyer than be innocent. That is a truly
sad statement on our reality.

Suppose that you are on a team that is engaged in a game and you discover that:

The other team gets to make up the rules. The referee plays for the other team. One of the rules
is that you are not allowed to score - the other team is at no risk Only you can be scored
against.

That is precisely how our social, cultural, and legal systems operate.

The conditions of our world are designed to create the maximum chance that
evil will prevail and the good people will be punished by being good and
telling the truth.

Punishing normal, decent, good people involves more than just creating a
social system that acts against them. The system is designed to insure that
these good people are subjected to as much pain as possible for the simple
fact of being good and honest. An obvious example of punishing the innocent
may be found in the way the victim in a rape case is treated; their
reputations are dragged through the dirt - all in the name of justice of
course. Note the case quoted above, of the fellow who raped his sister and
her daughter and walked out of court after accusing her of being a mental
case.

The system that controls our thinking is set up like the legal system.
People are taught to assume that, in any conflict, one side is lying one
way, and the other is lying the other way, and people can just form opinions
about which side is telling the truth. They are taught that the truth will
lie somewhere between two extremes.

That is a wonderfully plausible lie.

To see the evil behind that plausible lie, we must make a different
assumption: let us assume that in such cases, one side is innocent, honest,
and tells the truth. It is obvious that lying does an innocent defendant no
good; what lie can he tell? If he is innocent, the only lie he can tell is
to falsely confess "I did it."

On the other hand, lying is nothing but good for the liar. He can declare
that "I didn't do it" and accuse another of doing it; all the while the
innocent person is saying "I didn't do it" and is telling the truth.

The truth - when twisted by good liars, can always make an innocent person
look bad - especially if he is honest and admits that he has faults. If
someone is telling the simple truth, and the other side is lying through
their teeth, the basic assumption that the truth lies between the testimony
of the two sides always shifts the advantage to the lying side and away from
the side telling the truth. Under most circumstances, this shift put
together with the fact that the truth is going to also be twisted in such a
way as to bring detriment to the innocent person, results in the advantage
always resting in the hands of liars.

Even the simple act of giving testimony under oath is useless. If a person
is a liar, swearing an oath means nothing to that person. However, swearing
an oath acts strongly on a serious, truthful witness. Again, the advantage
is placed on the side of the liars.

Proof is a familiar concept to those used to conventional logical thinking.
However what passes for proof in cultural, social, and even legal terms
often bears only a superficial resemblance to what would be considered proof
by those who really use their minds to think.

For example: in formal mathematics, proof rules are established - postulates
are set out and a structure is built based on the postulates and the
theorem. Mathematical proof is pretty much inarguable: once a proof is
accepted as true it is added to the pool of known truths.

In legal proof there is a set of rules and a theory which the prosecution
presents, and attempts to prove the theory by clever argumentation rather
than facts. Truth is not the objective. Getting other people to believe the
theory IS the objective. However, the prosecution's theory is whatever the
prosecutor believes that he can get away with based on what is known about
the case, or what he can PREVENT from being known. What legal 'proof' does
is serve as a structure for convincing a group of people of the guilt of a
person, about whom they know nothing.

There is another significant difference: Mathematical proofs are judged by
experts in the particular case who are free to study any and all information
about the case. Legal 'proof' is judged by people who are guaranteed to be
ignorant of the case, who are only allowed to study the information
presented during the formal trial, and who are not even allowed to consult
the texts for what the rules say.

Our culture is so permeated with this "legal argument" system that it
extends into our daily experience: the one who is the slickest at using the
structure for convincing a group of people of something, is the one who is
believed. Very few people take the time to obtain hard facts by carefully
studying any and all information about a situation.

What we see something here that is set up to deceive people by presenting a
familiar structure which, upon examination, is a sham. And again, the
advantages fall to the hands of the liars.

In a courtroom, juries are prohibited by law from knowing anyone involved in
the trial. If the defendant is a good person who is being set up and framed,
people who know him well and who have had much opportunity to interact with
him over a long period of time and observe him would have much more trouble
accepting lies told about him. If the jurors knew the prosecutor and knew
him to be a bullying liar, they might have trouble believing the lies he was
telling. If the jurors knew the defendant, and know him to be a trouble
making villain they might be more likely to convict him.

By the same standards, if a person who is guilty is accused of a crime that
he DID commit, as we have seen above, it is all too easy to get off. Corrupt
lawyers, ignorant "experts," and blind judges let guilty people literally
get away with murder all the time.

But, none of the conditions conducive to finding the TRUTH prevail in a
courtroom even if we have been brainwashed to think that we have the "best
legal system in the world." It is not much different than "Trial by Ordeal,"
only the hot poker has been replaced by a system that works as effectively
to the advantage of liars.

Here then we see the worst feature of the law: it is designed to make the
world safe for evil people. In effect the law serves to take the horns away
from the bulls, while leaving the lions their teeth and claws. Massive,
overwhelming, advantage is placed in the hands of liars. Indeed, without the
legal system insuring their safety, the world would be a much more difficult
place for evil people.

Everyone knows somewhere deep inside, that there is something not right
about our world. In fact, at the present moment, it could hardly be worse.
But most people spend their lives avoiding that fact at all cost. The brutal
truth is that the our social, cultural, and legal systems are all about
making people helpless then hammering them without mercy - all the while
involving everyone in the illusion that right prevails - that it CAN
prevail.

This is an issue that will never die. It seems impossible to convince people
that private behavior cannot be predicted from public behavior. Kind,
nonviolent individuals behave well in public, but so do predators, rapists,
murderers, pedophiles, and COINTELPRO agents who operate largely to shape
and vector "social norms," or "official culture."

And that includes the 911 Truth Movement.

Laura
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

Apparently there were people who either couldn't or wouldn't "get it."

Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 21:46:26 +0700
From: "Dave Patterson"
To: "Bonnie Faulkner" and SNIPPED List
Subject: Re: The Cult of the Plausible Lie - was: More questions to
Steven Jones

I think this is a poor path to be going down. The "Cult of Experts" if I might sort of coin a term
is one of the control mechanisms of the current rule-the-world gang, and we are NEVER going to beat
them at it - nor should we be trying to. THEY establish, through their controlled universities and
"professional" societies and media, who is granted the title of "expert" (criteria being mainly, as
far as I can see, a willingness to back certain things and belittle others), and they are NEVER
going to let anyone into the chosen circle who disagrees with them. The "truth" is entirely
irrelevant in this game - I think maybe things were somewhat different a few years ago, when
professional bodies had some integrity, but I don't see much of that around anymore, when almost
anyone is for sale to the hightest bidder, and if you aren't for sale, you are quickly on the
outside looking in. (This is, of course, a very bad thing for anything we might call
"civilisiation", and re-establishing some sort of integrity in academia.
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:12:19 +0100
From: Veronica Chapman <me@VeronicaChapman.com>
To: Dave Patterson and SNIPPED List
Subject: Re: The Cult of the Plausible Lie - was: More questions to Steven
Jones

Well said Dave!!!!

A graduate from the University of Life is as much an 'expert' as anyone else.

(Was it Hitler who discovered that 'intellectuals' were the easiest to fool? And because the masses 'looked up to them in awe and wonderment of their expertise', the masses were fooled as well?)

Veronica
To which I responded:

From: Laura Knight-Jadczyk
To: @REPLYALL
Subject: Re: The Cult of the Plausible Lie - was: More questions to Steven Jones
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 19:14:56 +0200



On 26 Jul 2006, at 21:46, Dave Patterson wrote:

> I think this is a poor path to be going down. The "Cult of Experts" if I
> might sort of coin a term is one of the control mechanisms of the current
> rule-the-world gang, and we are NEVER going to beat them at it - nor should
> we be trying to. THEY establish, through their controlled universities and
> "professional" societies and media, who is granted the title of "expert"
> (criteria being mainly, as far as I can see, a willingness to back certain
> things and belittle others), and they are NEVER going to let anyone into the
> chosen circle who disagrees with them.

If your goal is to really accomplish anything, you need the backing of the
wider public. And the only way to do that is to understand how the public
thinks. The public follows AUTHORITY.

We don't have to like it, but that's what IS.

So, get over it. We are all gonna die if we don't strategize here.

L
And others who seemed to get it:

From: Bill Douglas
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:48:02 EDT
Subject: Re: More questions to Steven Jones
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk and SNIPPED List

Laura, thank you. So, well said !!

It's unbelievable that these people who supposedly are concerned with outting
the truth of 9/11 are so hung up on getting their credit.

There are thousands working behind the scenes who will never get credit for
anything, but are so grateful that experts, like Jones are coming forward, and
are happy to give them the credit, if it furthers expanding the truth out.

Bill Douglas
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:16:47 -0400
From: Mia Hamel
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk and SNIPPED List
Subject: Hello from a reluctant thread recipient

Laura
I am somehow on this thread and keep asking Gerard to take me off, but
you are very interesting!

Do you have a web site?

I am trying to get a newsletter going, I got inspired first by the Truth
Convergence, now even more by the Chicago conference. I have been
sending out newsletters regularly since then.
My stuff is being archived at www.sd911truth.org .

I am, you might call it, the next wave of 911, by that I mean that I
don't feel any need to get into the physical evidence debate. There are
plenty of indications that there was collusion and foul play. My thrust
is to try to inform and inspire and lead people to simple tools that can
help increase exposure of the crime.

I feel that we don't have to SOLVE the problems, just bring them to
light and then the public can work on digesting them and making better
decisions.

Anyway, just wanted to touch base!
Mia Hamel
From: Bill Douglas
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:18:27 EDT
Subject: Re: The Cult of the Plausible Lie - was: More questions to Steven Jones
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk and SNIPPED List

So well said. Go L !! Go !!

Bill Douglas

<<
If your goal is to really accomplish anything, you need the backing of the
wider public. And the only way to do that is to understand how the public
thinks. The public follows AUTHORITY.

We don't have to like it, but that's what IS.

So, get over it. We are all gonna die if we don't strategize here.

L >>
And so, of course, it was time for the focus to shift yet again:

From: "Scott Summers"
To: SNIPPED List
Subject: Re: Sunday July 30th - Pre-Empting the Next October Surprise
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 21:19:26 +0000

The only problem is that 9/11 wasn't a Bush Administration operation. 9/11
was a continuation of 1993 false flag WTC attack and 1995 OKC bombing which
both occurred under the Clinton administration which had nothing to do with
PNAC and Neocons in the executive branch.


9/11 was staged to (force) or facilitate the Bush administration down a
specific road. By erroneously claiming 9/11 was an Administration OP, the
9/11 truth movement is walking itself into a horrible limited hangout corner
that will result in total failure in the end. The Bush administration
should be understood only as an asset of the network that staged 9/11, not
the orchestrator. It is an asset that can be replaced. When Bush and PNAC
are no longer in the white house, this false flag War On Terror will
continue under the Democrats and what on earth will the 9/11 truth movement
have to complain about then? It wont make a dimes worth of difference
whether Cheney finally fell or not. Webster Tarpley's 9/11 Synthetic Terror
explains this very clearly. This movement is being lead astray and set up
for failure by fake researchers and their deceptive theories.


Shoot for the stars and you will reach the moon in the process. Shoot for
the moon and you are sure to loose. The Media executives have responsiblity
for the 9/11 scam that the Bush administration doesn't. The 9/11 truth
movement should be focused on putting public scrutiny on the owners of the
media by calling for their immediate arrest. They are the criminal network,
Bush is just the replaceable asset.
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

This last post about the Clinton Administration was exactly the point that we were dealing with psychopaths in power and that it really had little to do with political parties, religions, etc. And so, I sent off another post. Notice that this excerpt includes the quote contested by Alex Constantine just a few days earlier which, as far as I was concerned, had not be thorougly discredited since the source of the discrediting was highly suspect.

From: Laura Knight-Jadczyk
To: ,@LIST
Subject: Re: Sunday July 30th - Pre-Empting the Next October Surprise
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 23:32:28 +0200



On 26 Jul 2006, at 21:19, Scott Summers wrote:

> Shoot for the stars and you will reach the moon in the process. Shoot for
> the moon and you are sure to loose. The Media executives have responsiblity
> for the 9/11 scam that the Bush administration doesn't. The 9/11 truth
> movement should be focused on putting public scrutiny on the owners of the
> media by calling for their immediate arrest. They are the criminal network,
> Bush is just the replaceable asset.

You can say that again!

An excerpt from my own book on 911;

http://www.qfgpublishing.com/product_info.php?products_id=52

Begin quote;

The reader might wish to have a look at Kevin MacDonald's The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth- Century Intellectual and Political Movements1, where they will learn that ethnic Jews have a powerful influence in the American media-far larger than any other identifiable group.

The extent of Jewish ownership and influence on the popular media in the United States is remarkable given the relatively small proportion of the population that is Jewish."2

It should be noted that, in saying this, neither we nor McDonald are talking about ordinary Jews, but rather the Jewish "elite" who claim to be acting in the interests of the Jewish people, but who, in reality, are using the lure of Judaism and its promises of a "homeland" for Jews to manipulate the Jewish people. We also wish to remind the reader of the comments of Dr. Lobaczewski concerning the influence of Schizoidal types and their writings on the preparatory stages of the inception of Pathocracy, and their statistically significant presence among Jews.

Israel, therefore, is in control of one of the most potent means of creating the "official culture" of America and can use these means to suit its own agenda, including making the terms "conspiracy theory" and "anti-Semitic" such horrible epithets that no one would dare to speak anything that might put them at risk of being so branded!

An examination of the mass media in the U.S. gives a chilling review of this influence.

"After World War II, television flourished. [...] Psychologists and sociologists were brought in to study human nature in relation to selling; in other words, to figure out how to manipulate people without their feeling manipulated. Dr. Ernest Dichter, President of the Institute for Motivational Research made a statement in 1941... 'the successful ad agency manipulates human motivations and desires and develops a need for goods with which the public has at one time been unfamiliar -- perhaps even undesirous of purchasing.'

Discussing the influence of television, Daniel Boorstin wrote: 'Here at last is a supermarket of surrogate experience. Successful programming offers entertainment - under the guise of instruction; instruction - under the guise of entertainment; political persuasion - with the appeal of advertising; and advertising - with the appeal of drama.'

[...] programmed television serves not only to spread acquiescence and conformity, but it represents a deliberate industry approach." 3

Allen Funt, host of a popular television show, Candid Camera, was once asked what was the most disturbing thing he had learned about people in his years of dealing with them through the media. His response was chilling in its ramifications:

"The worst thing, and I see it over and over, is how easily people can be led by any kind of authority figure, or even the most minimal kinds of authority. A well-dressed man walks up the down escalator and most people will turn around and try desperately to go up also... We put up a sign on the road, 'Delaware Closed Today'. Motorists didn't even question it. Instead they asked: 'Is Jersey open?'" 4

Submission to minimal signs of authority; lack of knowledge and awareness; a desire for a quick fix and an easy way out. These, it would seem, are the characteristics of the average citizen on the planet today. Of course, none of it would be possible without the help of the mainstream media.

The careful observer with knowledge of history will note immediately that what we are describing is Fascist style propaganda of the same sort that was instituted in Nazi Germany. 5

On October 3, 2001, I.A.P. News reported that, according to Israel Radio (in Hebrew) Kol Yisrael, an acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres. Pereswarned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and "turn the US against us". "Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying, "don't worry about American pressure, we, the Jewish people control America".

On a July 1973 edition of CBS' "Face the Nation" Senator Fullbright, Chair of Senate Foreign Relations Committee stated:

"The Israelis control the policy in the congress and the senate."

On page 99 of Donald Neff's book Fallen Pillars, he quotes Secretary of State under President Dwight D. Eisenhower (from 1953 - 1959) John Foster Dullesas saying:

"I am aware how almost impossible it is in this country to carry out a foreign policy [in the Middle East] not approved by the Jews... terrific control the Jews have over the news media and the barrage the Jews have built up on congressmen ....

I am very much concerned over the fact that the Jewish influence here is completely dominating the scene and making it almost impossible to get congress to do anything they don't approve of. The Israeli embassy is practically dictating to the congress through influential Jewish people in the country."

At this point we would like to make a very clear distinction between normal Jewish people and those psychopaths who claim to represent them. While there is strong evidence to suggest an Israeli government involvement in the 9/11 attacks, in recent years we have been concerned to see a growing tendency among some independent 9/11 investigators to fall into the trap of blaming the Jewish people en masse for the actions of their government.

Such authors should consider whether it would be fair to call all Americans, themselves included, "bloodthirsty war criminals that delight in the death of Iraqi children", because to talk about "Jews" being responsible for 9/11 is certainly unfair to the Jewish people. Instead of "Jews", a more accurate definition would be "Psychopathic Zionists". That is not to say that many Jews to one degree or another do not support the actions of the state of Israel, but the majority (like many American Christians) are manipulated by religions created by psychopaths; they are caught in the mesmerizing influence of "spellbinders".

In any case, by talking of "Jews" in this way, these authors are needlessly and wantonly exposing themselves and their fellow 9/11 truth seekers to attacks that can be justified in terms of the argument that most Jews, like most Americans, are not directly responsible for the crimes of their leaders, and any suggestion to the contrary is evidence of "anti-Semitism".
The simple fact is that most people are manipulated to bear responsibility for the crimes of their leaders. Do the authors in question not realise that by labelling all Jews as accomplices to the crimes of the elite cabal of psychopaths, they are helping this cabal in their ultimate goal: to create the right social conditions for a savage war in the Middle East where both Jews and Arabs may well be annihilated? That this war in the Middle East may explode on their own doorsteps if "ethnic specific weapons" designed to wipe out non-psychopaths don't get them first?

If such authors see themselves as true humanitarians and truth seekers, their goal should be to protect normal human beings - including ethical ethnic and religious Jews, ethical Christians, and ethical Muslims - from the predations and manipulations of the psychopathic elite few who use and abuse humanity over and over again, Jewish, Christian, and Islamic alike. To this end their energy would be best used by focusing on and exposing the agenda of this "psychopathic elite", not by beating up on those who are least able to understand that they are being duped. The battle is fought between those from opposing sides of the fence who can See - what is being fought over is the soul and future of the human race.

1 http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books-Preface.html

2 Emphasis, ours.

3 Quoted by Wallace and Wallechinsky in The People's Almanac, pp. 805, 807.


4 Wallace, Wallechinsky, op. Cit.

5 We would also like to point out that Fox News has been revealed by the events of 9/11 to be one of the main propaganda arms of neo-conservative power in Washington though certainly, the majority of the big media players thought that they had to "get in line" in order to survive. It is only in the past year that citizens of the US have begun "voting with their wallets", abandoning major print media in droves. That this phenomenon has not been reported anywhere else in the world suggests that the majority of US citizens are refusing to pay for lies.
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

And Nico Haupt kept pushing the "No Planes" thing:

Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:39:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nico Haupt
Subject: 911TVF Blog: FOX 5 CGI nose visibly exists South Tower, then censored (07/26)
To: Nico Haupt and SNIPPED List

http://911tvfakery.blogspot.com/

Wednesday, July 26, 2006
FOX 5 CGI nose visibly exists South Tower, then censored (07/26)

As one can see with a stop and go procedure (or by analysing the converted video frames) from the CGI aircraft silhouette which was live inserted into the FOX5 live broadcast, exits accidentally in one frame out of the South
Tower.

Apparently the CGI wasn't halted in time behind an invisible and pre-positioned layer for the
position of the tower.

The operator must have noticed this and put a distortion signal on the live broadcast.
The screen turned into black for a moment.

After this censorship one can notice that regular fire came outside the tower, which had nothing to
do with the shape seen some frames earlier.

Compare the 'CGI nose' with the 'exit nose':
And then, surprise, surprise!

Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:52:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Constantine
Subject: Re: Sunday July 30th - Pre-Empting the Next October Surprise
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk and SNIPPED List

Laura: Your Nazi pathologies are showing.
Is the National Alliance still trawling for suckers on
the Net?

- Alex Constantine
 
Alex Jones and 911 Scholars: The Parable of the Good Shepherd

Another change in direction: back to the Steven Jones issue:

From: Rick Rajter
Subject: Re: Jones' Plagiarism
Date sent: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:07:46 -0400
To: Gerard Holmgren and SNIPPED List

I just want to settle this one minor issue which seems to keep
popping up.


In the scientific community, there are many different types of
articles published in journals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_journal#Types_of_articles

Letters and Articles are generally for new research. Review
articles, which is what I saw the 1.0 version of the Jones article
as, is simply an overview of a field. To quote wikipedia

"Review articles do not cover original research but rather synthesize
the results of many different articles on a particular topic into a
coherent narrative about the state of the art in that field."

Here are the MIT guidlelines re: plagiarism
http://web.mit.edu/writing/Citation/plagiarism.html

As well as the "How Not to Plagiarize" document
http://www.utoronto.ca/writing/plagsep.html

Specifically the following passage:
"It shall be an offence for a student knowingly:

(d) to represent as one's own any idea or expression of an idea or
work of another in any academic examination or term test or in
connection with any other form of academic work, i.e. to commit
plagiarism."

So essentially, it is totally possible to take a collection a 5-100
papers, and write one paper summarizing all of the. As long as each
section of the paper is cited to the relevant paper/papers, it's all
good.

This is where I think the problem is stemming. Other researchers did
not hold up these levels of citation, and either ignorantly or with
malice, ignored research by Gerard, Webfairy, Plague Puppy, etc.
These people then become "the originators". Everyone who comes late
to the game sees these people as the people who originally published
the material. They don't find webfairy or Gerard's work because the
people in the middle didn't do their proper homework and cite properly.

For example. If I wanted to learn about super conductors, I would go
to a library and search on the topic. I would find a newer book, and
look at those citations to see who originally wrote about them. I
could then go to that paper, and look to see if THAT paper cites any
earlier work, and so on and so on.

The problem is not so much Jones then not citing Gerard's work,
because he may have followed the trail and it ended. The problem
then lies with the people in the middle of the pack that did not cite
Gerard's work and used it without giving credit.

But in short, this can all be resolved... Now that this earlier work
has been shown, it can easily be cited in order to stay within the
bounds of a review article and give credit where it is due. This is
also common in a review article, citing the person or persons who
initially started the field.

If Steven specifically omitted citations for Gerard/Webfairy/Plague
Puppy after this was brought to his attention, then I'd be a bit more
upset and understand your attempts at pointing this out.

-RR
I decided to kick in another post:

From: "Laura Knight-Jadczyk" <lark2@cassiopaea.com>
To: Bonnie Faulkner and SNIPPED List
Date sent: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:13:37 +0200
Subject: Re: The Cult of the Plausible Lie - was: More questions to Steven Jones
Priority: normal

On 26 Jul 2006, at 17:12, Veronica Chapman wrote:

>A graduate from the University of Life is as much an 'expert' as anyone
>else.
> (Was it Hitler who discovered that 'intellectuals' were the easiest to
>fool? And because the masses 'looked up to them in awe and wonderment of
>their expertise', the masses were fooled as well?)
Actually, no. Hitler actually undertook to destroy all the intelligentsia
of his "targets" and for a very definite reason - because they could not be
fooled or intimidated.

In late August of 1939, Hitler signed non-aggression pact with Stalin which,
effectively, was an agreement between the two of them to divide Poland. When
the Germans invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, the Polish people hardly
knew what the Nazis had in store for them. According to the Nazi grand
design for the solution to the need for " lebensraum , " (living space),
the whole of Polish territory was to be gradually cleared of its native
population for the colonization by German ethnic populations and eventually
incorporated into the Greater German Reich.

Thus, unfortunately, the Poles themselves were the next target of the Nazis,
and the plan was to play the Poles against the Jews to effect their mutual
distruction. Pure Machiavelli.

The Germans considered the Poles to be an inferior race as they did other
Slavic nations. So, according to the plan, the Poles were to be sorted
according to strictly racist criteria. Those Poles with German ancestry were
to be reclassified as ethnic Germans. The transformation of Poland into a
German province was to be carried out over a short period of twenty-five or
thirty years. Hence, no mercy was to be shown to this population. And, to
guarantee the success of this fast despoliation, the intelligentsia was to
be liquidated. "It sounds cruel, " Hitler reportedly told Hans Frank, "but
such is the law of life."

And, more than that, Stalin ALSO saw it as necessary to annihilate the
intelligentsia of Ukraine.

In a speech give by Lech Walesa, President of the Republic of Poland, at the
Cemetery of Polish officers in Katyn, June 4th, 1995, the following was
noted (translated by Chester A. Kisiel):

"In September 1939 their world collapsed. Everything went to pieces:
independence, law, joy in building their country, domestic tranquillity. An
onslaught from the West fell upon isolated Poland, soon followed by one from
the East. [...] Many of them [became Soviet prisoners of war] such as the
defenders of Lvov, [and were] assured nothing bad would happen to them, that
they had been interned only temporarily, that they would be allowed to
return to their homes. [...] How could they know that on the 5th of March,
1940, a few signatures on a short document sentenced to death more than
twenty thousand innocent people? This document instructed: 'decide the cases
without summoning the prisoners and without presenting charges; the
sentence: to be shot.'

"The NKVD carried out their orders precisely and methodically. A separate
bullet for each condemned man... hour after hour, day after day after day;
the procession of death continued. In the end, there was one common,
nameless pit. There were no crosses, no names, no prayers."

Over twenty thousand of the brightest and best of the genetic pool of
Ukraine were dead with one action. But, this was only the tip of the ice-
berg. For example, the population of Kiev, in 1940 was 900, 000. In 1945 it
was only 186, 000.

"Then followed decades of concealing the truth. Lies, subterfuge and
persecutions. In totalitarian Poland, the word 'KATYN' was an anti-State
word. The threat of severe penalties hung over anyone who dared to place a
candle under a cross with such an inscription. The families of the Katyn
victims had to conceal keepsakes of their loved ones."

The murder of the educated classes was blamed on the Germans by the
Russians, and on the Russians by the Germans. The truth is, BOTH were
guilty. It is through the elimination or suppression of free thinkers that
any oppressive regime takes hold.

As Aldous Huxley said: intelligence - in the widest sense possible - is
indispensible - but it must go hand in hand with charity.

Intelligence without charity is inhuman.

Good will or charity undirected by intelligence are misguided.

The two have to go together.

Laura
 
Alex Jones - Fascist Tool?

Hello. I'm new.

I came across this place to read some of the posts regarding Alex Jones.

I thought it would be interesting to give you my view - interesting for me, maybe -- maybe for you, too?

I wrote the following post just over a year ago - I'm interested in your opinions.........[btw - I'm much more interested in any views on the <i>content</i> rather than my very obvious stylistic limitations. :)]

I am pretty much traditional leftie, and don't have much time for esoterica. Even so, maybe my perspective might offer you something slightly different? I only post in one other place - and was persuaded to post here by the high level of criticism. I'm interested in subjecting my admittedly rambling view of AJ to some scrutiny - so I am just after some feedback...........hopefully it might elucidate something. maybe not? My view certainly seems to generate some hostility - maybe it will receive better hearing here? Maybe not - maybe I am too much of 'an old leftie'?

[I read enough threads to notice the sensitivity of existing members to 'iffy' new members - fair enough. I am intrigued if I will generate any such response - tho I honestly don't seek to. I also wonder what psychiatric condition you will diagnose me with! Incidentally, I have come across at least a couple of members here elsewhere - specifically cyberchrist and sweejak. There might be others. FWIW my own views have been pretty distinctly in opposition to theirs - very few things did we ever agree upon. We were opponents, if anything :) just thought I'd be clear...........]

One of my main concerns these days is that the anti-war 'movement' and 9/11 truth stuff are being subverted by the far-right. I think neo-fascism is basically piggy-backing on both these things - specifically to further their simple ugly anti-semitism, and to undermine the institutions of liberal democracy, paving the way for some crises from which the fascists can rise and lead. If one goes and looks - it is clear the fascists were long ago well aware of such potential.

Oh yeah - I'm longwinded too. Sorry. I'm working on it?


Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:39 pm [few changes for clarity]

No single group has had as much a detrimental effect on our society in the last half century as the American Civil Liberties Union.

_http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_mays_061103_aclu.html
------
..........what rubbish!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Something of what I've been thinking about, especially in light of some of the strange things I read here.......

I am thinking AJ is an accomplished right wing propagandist. I think he serves the fascist cause very well.

There's a few things I am getting at:

1) AJ serves to (further) innoculate americans against 'socialism' - including anything which can possibly be labelled as 'socialism'. See(2)
2) Distorts 'socialism'.
3) AJ hides fascism behind fake socialism.
4) AJ innoculates americans against (supposedly 'socialist') UN authority, thereby retaining self-serving unilateralism, and avoiding international 'justice'. Others (fascists) argue FOR use of UN authority, when fascism makes use of multi-lateralism.
5) AJ de-sensitises US public to police state
6) AJ increases US citizens suspicion that 'america is under attack'.

I believe these all serve to confuse and short-cut analysis of our problems, whilst simultaneously undermining the only realistic alternatives.

AJ's general scheme is that the 'left-right paradigm' is illusory. Yet even though the left/right paradigm is illusory, somehow it's always evil <i>socialists</i> who want to take over the world.

How is that??

Does he mean, 'Illusory socialists', or real ones? If there is no difference why take so much time, and expend so much effort to implicate 'socialism'?

AJ is one of the most prominent advocates of the notion of a 'global socialist NWO'.

And yet simultaneously the left/right paradigm is illusion??

How does this make any sense??

Taking over the world, for the benefit of a few, promoting one's own culture and subjugating lesser types as slaves, eulogising about oneself is all FASCIST CRAP. It IS NOT what socialists strive for, or believe in. For AJ to suggest it does is well, what - !? Stupidity, ignorance, or something else?

When AJ says socialism what he means is fascism.

Why this perpetual mistake? Why use the term socialism when it is so mis-placed, and when there is a perfectly good one - FASCISM?

His whole point was supposed to be unmasking and revealing the secret conspiracy? So why does he always use the term socialist, as if the conspirators were <i>objectively</i> socialist?? They are <i>objectively</i> FASCIST - so why use 'socialist' to define them when they are fascist? Maybe they are secret 'fascists' - hiding behind 'socialism'?? But then, why not just call them fascist? To call them socialist in such case is a real dis-service : it HIDES the hand of fascism.

AJ tries to prevent one even <i>considering</i> socialism: he never has anything about socialism per se - he just uses it as invective. He doesn't want you to THINK about socialism, he just uses what you already think about it, and reinforces those negative notions with his use of the term in clearly 'detrimental' ways: the context of his use of the phrase 'socialism' TELLS you socialism is bad.

Then he'll tell show you the police state - well, no arguing with that.

Then he'll tell you it's all the fault of the 'socialist' UN who are trying to take over your glorious america.........and then show you all the hated socialists sinister plans: "Look - they even want to manage your water.....isn't that sinister!! as if it is the socialists who are seeking to deprive people of water, food, liberty, whatever, and to extort a price for access.

It isn't socialists. It is FASCISTS! THEY don't want water to be 'managed' - they want private rights, WELDED to state authority and capacity - THEY WANT THE BENEFITS for themselves.

By definition - the socialists would want to manage those things - but it is FASCISTS who oppose this, because THEY want to do it - for their own interests.

But REMEMBER PEOPLE - there is no left-right paradigm - so don't even CONSIDER an alternative......
--------------

So AJ is apparently anti-socialist.

AJ's perspective panders to american unilateralism, whilst projecting complete cynicism about the only body with any external control over US - the UN.

AJ is a christian, and apparently believes NWO socialists are satanists, occultists, whatever.

AJ constantly warns (americans) that they are being subjected to the creep of a police state.

---------------------------

AJ is apparently anti-socialist. Infowars certainly seems to be, at least.
Even though they claim such a paradigm is meaningless.....? If it is meaningless paradigm why does he only attack the <i>socialist</i> side of the paradigm? One would think that both sides of a meaningless paradigm were equally meaningless, and equally deserving of his scorn? But that doesn't happen. ONLY socialism is treated with such scorn. How come?

One of the few capitalist targets to receive AJ's scorn is halliburton. But from AJ's basic ideology, how can he be opposed to such things? It is a natural consequence of a belief in free-market capitalism. Limiting the scope of activity for companies like Halliburton would be RESTRICTING LIBERTY wouldn't it, Alex? It would be some sort of heinous 'socialism', wouldn't it? Simply to consider any realistic efforts at limiting haliburton would mean falling afoul of AJ's accusations of socialism?

so why bother branding NWO as socialism? It is fascist if anything at all - and fascists hate no-one so much as socialists after all?

Why when it is so obviously fascist, does he persist with calling it socialist, especially when he says it's a false paradigm.......? Does fascism fall into this 'false paradigm'? I certainly don't think so, but does he? ( He never says, as far as I know),

If the words have no real meaning, why use them at all?

What countries claim to be a socialist, after all? USA? Argentina? UK? Venezuela? China? Iraq? Libya?

We KNOW who CLAIMS to be socialist - but those are in NO way trotted out as being the NWO socialists.........so we can't be talking about 'REAL' socialists, as in those who CLAIM to be socialist. AJ + co must mean people 'pretending' to be 'socialists' then......??

WHO on earth pretends to be socialist?? Surely the only people 'pretending' to be socialists are something else - not socialists but conspirators. What 'actors' do we have that 'pretend' to be socialist??

None? But what we do have is people pretending america's opponent is socialist - the UN. Surprise surprise!

And the SAME PEOPLE claiming this, are claiming that the US is being 'hijacked' by those self-same 'socialists'. So, understanding that AJ doesn't mean real socialists, just 'pretend ones' we can reformulate this as:

AJ claims USA is being hijacked by NWO socialists - and that the UN is seeking to take over USA - and because the UN is a socialist NWO institution, then he means the same people? He at least thinks they all believe in the same thing "socialism".

But is is actually FASCISTS pretending to be SOCIALISTS. And therefore, isn't ALEX instrumental in this deceit?


On AJ's christianity : 'socialists' are often aetheist. Christianity/occultism is more closely tied to nazism than it is to socialism, born as it was out of Makow's pet-hate 'the enlightenment'? For Makow it is socialism's aetheism that provides a godless amoral universe for socialist atrocity. For AJ it's their Satanism?

They can't both be right. But both could easily be wrong.

And how can the socialists at the UN, who are supposedly responsible for the 'socialist NWO', not agree with the 'socialist NWO police state america' and work in concert?

And if america is such a rogue police state, why does AJ brush off external attempts at control/limit as simple dirty NWO socialism? What's the UN in opposition to? domestic american NWO socialism? eh? The same thing - yet they are supposed to be opposed somehow?

If it is socialist NWO at home he complains at - why are opponents to american unilateral international intervention also socialist NWO? It doesn't make any sense.

------------
AJ's insistence that left/right divide is a sham, is itself a sham. What he avoids is FASCISM. He doesn't want you to see it head-on: he is more interested in pretending there is 'no other way' there are NO ALTERNATIVES. Additionally he discredits socialism too. He doesn't even stoop to discuss arguments - simple slurs appealing to prejudice and indoctrination suffice.

To whit:

Alex Jones complains about a police state, and tells you it's because of socialists. It's not - it's because of fascists.

He then tries to tell you that the UN is engaged in a socialist NWO crusade to take-over america.

It's not. It's fascists.

The supposedly 'socialist NWO' UN tried to stop america - it failed. That was a massive UN defeat. How can UN defeat be construed as victory for socialist UN NWO? It's a victory for fascism, not socialism. To think otherwise compounds their success. WHy doesn't jones SAY this?? WHy does he persist with obscuring this?

Does he think that discrediting the only world institution which could conceivably 'tame' bloodthirsty america as socialist is advancing progressive causes in any way? What does he think of the vast majority of UN members being against Iraq war?

WHy was there any opposition at the UN at all, let alone it be so complete? IF the UN is part of same NWO taking over america why such a disagreeable fracas over Iraq? Why does it take an american declaration of war - "With us or Against us"?

How can the supposedly "NWO UN's" opposition to supposedly 'NWO american invasion of iraq' sit alongside each other?

Is it not a far better answer to say america is fascist, and if anything is attempting imposition of a fascist world order..........they are collectively opposed by the rest of the world - socialist, or whatever........

There is NOTHING socialist whatsoever to invading iraq. Fascist - yes, socialist - no.

There is NOTHING socialist about selling a nation's assets to a few foreign owners under duress, and profiteering .........fascist -yes , socialist NO.
If Orwell is perspicacious enough to be quoted everywhere, and frankly, provide the entire metaphor for AJ - why aren't his actual political views worth anything?

Why are we to believe in orwell's book but not his life?

Does AJ think Orwell wanted to enslave the world, steal their resources, and kill them off in gene warfare?

Well, why wasn't Orwell involved in the global socialist conspiracy?

Every line I have written since 1936 has been written directly or indirectly against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism.'

George Orwell
orwell was a political writer, he was political, he was a socialist. Alex jones thinks enough of orwell's insight to wholesale lift the political themes from 1984.

Yet nowhere is there ANYTHING ABOUT Orwell's politics. NOTHING about socialism anywhere. Apart from being responsible for all the worlds ills........

If orwell is so 'switched on' as to provide such insight
that AJ is willing to make money out of it and tell people to read it, isn't it a little odd that he considers the actual politics of the writer to be so dangerous and reprehensible as not even deserve discussion?

Orwell's beliefs are trashed all over the place - with simple invective.

QUite simply, doesn't it strike you as strange that AJ can make so much wholesale use of Orwell's writing, metaphors and lexicon, yet insist that orwell's beliefs were malign, are underserving of discussion, and are responsible for an incipient fascist NWO.......??

Did he think Orwell wanted 1984 to happen?? Does AJ read 1984 as orwell's dreamt-of utopia? Because that is what he saying when he says there is a socialist NWO ready to instigate the big brother police state.........

Orwell was a socialist.
alex jones thinks 1984 is happening now.

If 1984 IS happening now, with socialists actively and enthusiastically responsible - like AJ claims - then orwell must also have WANTED what is in the book.

Does ANYONE seriously think that?
 
Alex Jones - Fascist Tool?

Alex Jones is a fraud.
Plain and simple.
Read through the threads on Alex Jones & Rense completely.
Sweejak and Cyberchrist are two individuals who are hooked up with psychopaths.
Sweejak is hooked up with psychopath Jack Blood and the Revere psychos who have been attacking me for the last couple of years.

Alex Jones is about as "christian" as George W. Bush.
He has strategically steered people away from truth while exploiting public fear and paranoia regarding stuff like the " police state" and "martial law" and events such as 9-11 for profit.
Alex Jones works tirelessly to control and manipulate people's minds.

Jones is a SPELLBINDER - at least as far as I'm concerned.
The Political Ponerology book by Dr. Lobaczewski elaborates on "spellbinders" and is well worth reading.
This book is the KEY to understanding what is going on in the "9-11 Truth Movement" Cointelpro operation, of which Alex Jones is the self-proclaimed "grandfather".

It's also the KEY to understanding the evil being perpetrated all around us every single day in our world.

Read up on all of that and then ask yourself if Alex Jones is a good guy or a bad guy.

Seems like you already have an inkling as to the answer...:-)

Lisa
 
Alex Jones - Fascist Tool?

the_last_name_left said:
One of my main concerns these days is that the anti-war 'movement' and 9/11 truth stuff are being subverted by the far-right. I think neo-fascism is basically piggy-backing on both these things - specifically to further their simple ugly anti-semitism, and to undermine the institutions of liberal democracy, paving the way for some crises from which the fascists can rise and lead. If one goes and looks - it is clear the fascists were long ago well aware of such potential.
AJ is a liar whose conscious intent is to obsfucate the truth. Read the thread on AJ. Similiarly the 911 Truth movement is composed primarily of liars who main concern is deception. There is no 911 truth movement. The movement is a lie. Left, right, up or down, inside or outside, the movement goes in circles. Call it for what it is. Call a spade a spade and a lie a lie.

How can you subvert a lie?
 
Alex Jones - Fascist Tool?

last_name said:
His whole point was supposed to be unmasking and revealing the secret conspiracy? So why does he always use the term socialist, as if the conspirators were <i>objectively</i> socialist?? They are <i>objectively</i> FASCIST - so why use 'socialist' to define them when they are fascist? Maybe they are secret 'fascists' - hiding behind 'socialism'?? But then, why not just call them fascist? To call them socialist in such case is a real dis-service : it HIDES the hand of fascism.

AJ tries to prevent one even <i>considering</i> socialism: he never has anything about socialism per se - he just uses it as invective. He doesn't want you to THINK about socialism, he just uses what you already think about it, and reinforces those negative notions with his use of the term in clearly 'detrimental' ways: the context of his use of the phrase 'socialism' TELLS you socialism is bad.
You aren't going to get any arguments from me on what you have written! I think you are spot on! Alex Jones is just a shill for the NWO even though he claims to be against it. He promotes all the ideas of Fascism as though it were opposition, when in fact, it is just the same corral for people, with a different name.

The Devil's supermarket has well-stocked shelves with something for everyone.
 

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