Alex Jones - COINTELPRO? Fascist Tool?

[Laura]

Alex Jones: COINTELPRO

Bible and sword: US Christian Zionists discover Israelb

Donald Wagner, professor of religion and Middle Eastern studies at North Park University in Chicago and executive director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies. Third in a series of five on Christian Zionism, written for THE DAILY STAR.

By Donald Wagner, professor of religion and Middle Eastern studies at North Park University in Chicago and executive director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies. He wrote this text, the third in a series of five on Christian Zionism, for THE DAILY STAR

The first lobbying effort on behalf of a Jewish state in Palestine was not organized or initiated by Jews. It occurred in 1891, when a popular fundamentalist Christian writer and lay-preacher, William E. Blackstone, organized a national campaign to appeal to the then-president of the United States, Benjamin Harrison, to support the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine.

Blackstone gained notoriety through his 1882 national bestseller Jesus is Coming, his summary of end-of-time premillennial doctrines. He saw a need to politically support the Jewish people after hearing horrifying stories of the pogroms in Russia. Blackstone appealed to multimillionaire friends such as oil magnate John D. Rockefeller, publisher Charles B. Scribner and industrialist JP Morgan to finance advertisements and a petition campaign that were carried in major newspapers from Boston to the Mississippi. Aside from wealthy financiers, Blackstone also received support from most members of the US Senate and House of Representatives and the chief justice of the Supreme Court. Despite powerful backing, his appeal went nowhere.

There is little record of significant political backing for the Zionist cause after Blackstone's initiative, as fundamentalists began to withdraw from political activity following the Scopes trial and battles over evolution. However, after a 50-year hiatus, gradual change began occurring after World War II. Two post-war developments galvanized conservative Christians - the establishment of Israel in 1948 and the Cold War. A previously small and marginalized school of Biblical interpretation called "premillennialism" began to assert itself within the larger evangelical Protestant community. Israel and the Cold War were usually linked by premillennial preachers and authors who interpreted them using selected prophecy texts. According to their prophetic timetable, as the end of history approached an evil global empire would emerge under the leadership of a mysterious world leader called the "Antichrist" and attack Israel, leading to the climactic Battle of Armageddon. Israel was understood by conservative Christians to be at the center of these Biblical events, and thus commanded unconditional financial and spiritual support.

When Israel captured Jerusalem and the West Bank (not to mention Gaza, Sinai and the Golan Heights) in the June 1967 Arab-Israeli war, conservative Christians sensed that history had entered the latter days. L. Nelson Bell, the father-in-law of evangelist Billy Graham and editor of the influential journal Christianity Today, wrote in July 1967:

That for the first time in more than 2,000 years Jerusalem is now in the hands of the Jews gives the students of the Bible a thrill and a renewed faith in the accuracy and validity of the Bible.

Premillennialism gained popularity through a flurry of books and the activities of radio evangelists and television preachers. For example, Hal Lindsay's The Late, Great Planet Earth, which became one of the best selling books in history. Lindsay's message popularized the premillennialist narrative for a generation of Americans, placing Israel at its historical center. Lindsay also developed a consulting business that included several members of the US Congress, the CIA, Israeli generals, the Pentagon and the then-governor of California, Ronald Reagan.

With the American bicentennial in 1976, several trends converged in America's religious and political landscape, all pointing toward increased US support for Israel and a higher political profile for the religious right. First, fundamentalist and evangelical churches became the fastest growing sector of American Christianity, as mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic branches saw a decline in their members, budgets and missions.

Second, Jimmy Carter, an evangelical from the "Bible Belt," was elected president of the United States, giving increased legitimacy to evangelicals as Time magazine confirmed when it named 1976 "the year of the evangelical."

Third, following the 1967 war, Israel gained an increased share of US foreign and military budgets, becoming the "western pillar" of the US strategic alliance against a Soviet incursion into the Middle East, particularly after the revolution in Iran took the country out of the US orbit. It is during this period that AIPAC and other pro-Israel organizations started shaping US foreign policy.

Fourth, the Roman Catholic Church and mainstream Protestant denominations began to develop a more balanced approach to the Middle East, bringing them closer to the international consensus on the Palestine question.

Pro-Israel organizations interpreted this shift as being anti-Israeli and, in turn, began to court conservative Christians. Marc Tannenbaum of the American Jewish Committee captured this sentiment well when he told the Washington Post: "The evangelical community is the largest and fastest-growing bloc of pro-Jewish sentiment in this country."

The fifth development was the victory of Menachem Begin and the right-wing Likud coalition in the Israeli election of 1977. Begin's Revisionist Zionist ideology that mandated establishing an "iron wall" of Israeli domination, and his policy of annexing Arab land, accelerating construction of Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories and militarizing the conflict with the Arab world, all found ready support within the American Christian right. Likud's tactic of employing Biblical names for the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and Biblical arguments to defend its policies ("God gave us this land") found resonance with fundamentalist Christians.

A surprising development, and arguably the lynchpin in forging the fundamentalist Christian-Zionist alliance, occurred in March 1977, when Carter inserted the clause "Palestinians deserve a right to their homeland" into a policy address. Immediately, the pro-Israel lobby and the Christian right responded with full-page ads in major US newspapers. Their text stated: "The time has come for evangelical Christians to affirm their belief in biblical prophecy and Israel's divine right to the land." The text concluded with a line that took direct aim at Carter's statement: "We affirm as evangelicals our belief in the promised land to the Jewish people ... We would view with grave concern any effort to carve out of the Jewish homeland another nation or political entity."

The advertising campaign was one of the first significant signs of the Likud's and the pro-Israel lobby's alliance with the Christian right. It redirected conservative Christian support from Carter, a Democrat, to the Republican right. Jerry Strober, a former employee of the American Jewish Committee, coordinated the campaign and told Newsweek magazine: "The evangelicals are Carter's constituency and he (had) better listen to them ... The real source of strength the Jews have in this country is from the evangelicals."

By the 1980 elections the political landscape had shifted, both in the Middle East and in the US. The Iranian hostage crisis helped ensure Carter's defeat against his Republican rival, Ronald Reagan. However, it was not the only factor: An estimated 20 million fundamentalist and evangelical Christians voted for Reagan and against Carter's brand of evangelical Christianity that failed the test of unconditional support for Israel.

The power of the pro-Israel Republicans became a prominent feature during the Reagan years, with the president leading the way. On at least seven public occasions Reagan expressed belief in a final Battle of Armageddon. During one of his private conversations with AIPAC director Tom Dine, Reagan said: "You know, I turn back to your ancient prophets in the Old Testament and the signs foretelling Armageddon, and I find myself wondering if - if we're the generation that is going to see that come about." The conversation was leaked to the Jerusalem Post and picked up across the US on the AP wire. This stunning openness displayed by an American president with the chief lobbyist for a foreign government indicated the close cooperation that had developed between the administration and Israel.

A little-known feature of the Reagan White House was the series of seminars organized by the administration and the Christian right with assistance from the pro-Israel lobby. These sessions were designed to firm up support for the Republican Party, and, in turn, encourage AIPAC and Christian Zionist organizations to advance their respective agendas. Participation by the Christian right in gala dinner briefings at the White House reads like a Who's Who of the movement, including author Hal Lindsay, Jerry Falwell, the head of the Moral Majority, and evangelist Pat Robertson, as well as Tim LeHaye (co-author of the influential Left Behind series) and Moral Majority strategist Ed McAteer. State Department official Robert McFarlane, one of those implicated in the Iran-Contra scandal, led several briefings. Quietly working in the background was another Christian fundamentalist, Marine Colonel Oliver North.

Begin developed a close relationship with leading fundamentalists, such as Falwell, who later received a Learjet from the Israeli government for his personal travel and in 1981 was honored with the Jabotinsky Award in an elaborate ceremony in New York. When Israel bombed Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, Begin made his first telephone call to Falwell, asking him to "explain to the Christian public the reasons for the bombing." Only later did he call Reagan. Falwell also converted former Senator Jesse Helms from a critic of Israel into one of its staunchest allies in the US Senate, where he chaired the influential Foreign Relations Committee.

Late in the Reagan administration, a number of scandals in the Christian right began to erode its public support. Pat Robertson's ineffective run for the presidency in 1988 led to a decline in fundamentalist political fortunes. Resilient as ever, the pro-Israel lobby was able to somewhat reassert itself with the election of another Bible-toting Southern Baptist president, Bill Clinton, despite his liberal social agenda. However, Christian Zionist influence did decline after the Reagan presidency, though it would return with renewed vigor after the tragedy of Sept. 11, 2001.

 

[Laura]

Alex Jones: COINTELPRO

The Most Dangerous Cult in The World

Of course, Zionism and Christian Zionism make little sense if the entire foundation of Judaism is based on a lie and that lie has been covered up by those with Imperialist agendas. The problem is, even those without imperialist agendas can be so attached to their belief system that no matter how much evidence is provided that it is based on lies, they will cling to it desperately and declare that all the "proofs" are just being provided to "test their faith." A closed mind that is chained and locked is a terrible thing to see.

The reader may want to pick up copies of Gershom Gorenberg's book, The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount , and Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture and Destruction of Planet Earth , by Grace Halsell.

Gershom Gorenberg is an associate editor and columnist for The Jerusalem Report, a regular contributor to The New Republic, and an associate of the Center for Millennial Studies at Boston University. He lives in Jerusalem, where he has spent years covering the dangerous mix of religion and politics.

Grace Halsell served President Lyndon Johnson as his speech writer for three years. She covered both Korea and Vietnam as a journalist. She was the author of 14 books, including, "Prophecy and Politics: Militant Evangelists on the Road to Nuclear War".

The facts that these two authors, one Christian and one Jewish, bring forward, are that the Armageddon theology of the New Christian Right is being propagated by numerous TV evangelists, including Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, along with Hal Lindsey's widely read The Late Great Planet Earth, and Tim LaHayes' "Left Behind" series. This theology is influencing millions of human beings worldwide to not only believe that the world is going to end soon, but that it is their duty to hasten the event in any way they can. It is in this context that we gain greater understanding of the politics of George W. Bush, though both of these books were written long before Bush effected his first coup d'etat in 2000.

Halsell interviewed fundamentalists, all of whom believed that it is their duty to fulfil the biblical prophecy of fighting World War III, preparatory to Christ's Second Coming. Most disquieting is her discussion of an alliance of the New Christian Right and militant Zionists who share a common belief and enthusiasm for a global holocaust. Alarming, too, is the extent of the political influence of the above mentioned tele-evangelists, the Israeli lobby and the fact that the policies of George W. Bush are largely subject to his alleged belief in the inevitability of a God-willed nuclear war. We suspect that Bush, behind the scenes, is not truly Christian, even in his own mind, but rather follows the ideas of Machiavelli which posit that a leader must appear to be religious in order to induce the masses who are believers to follow him. On the other hand, Bush and much of Congress may very well believe in this Armageddon Theology.

Both Gorenberg and Halsell detail and document the history of the alliance between militant Zionism and Christian fundamentalism and expose the purpose of the alliance which is the return to Israeli control of all of Palestine and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem, on the site where the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock now stand. For the religious Zionist, these actions are the prerequisite to the Messiah's first coming. For the Christian fundamentalists, it is prerequisite to Armageddon and Messiah's second coming. Reclamation of Israel from the Palestinians who have lived there for over 5000 years, and establishing Jewish hegemony, including the use of nuclear weapons (Armageddon) are seen as events to be earnestly desired and supported.

Armageddon is seen by Christian fundamentalists as "nuclear and imminent", waiting only for proper orchestration from American political leaders. We should note that there are somewhere between 40 and 50 million such Christian fundamentalists in the U.S. (Some estimates go as high as 75 million.) The Zionists, naturally, do NOT include Armageddon in their messianic aspirations. This conflict of interests at a higher level is exposed in Gorenberg's book.

Gorenberg's book was written before 9/11 and, in this sense, was extremely prescient. The reader who wishes to understand what is at the root of the current conflict that threatens to engulf our planet will find his history of those 35 disputed acres of the Temple Mount to be crucial. Gorenberg makes clear what is at the root of the volatile relationships between Arabs, Jews and Christians in Israel. He pays special attention to carefully documenting and analyzing the actions and beliefs of fundamentalist groups in all three religions.

Jewish messianists and Christian millennialists both believe that building the Third Temple on the site where both Solomon's and Herod's temples are alleged to have stood is essential for their respective prophetic scenarios to take place, (never mind that they seem to both be using each other and each believe that the other is just a dumb tool). The Muslim believers fear that efforts to destroy Al-Aqsa mosque, to make way for the Third Temple, will prevent fulfilment of the prophecy about Islam's Meccan shrine migrating to Jerusalem at the end of time. Gorenberg calls the Temple Mount, "a sacred blasting cap".

As far-fetched and delusional as this may sound to the average fair-weather Church, Synagogue or Mosque goer, it would be a mistake to underestimate the hypnotic effects that the idea of a personal 'savior' have on those people who seem to be 'tailor made' to fall prey to such manipulative honeyed promises of 'eternal happiness'. Did any of us really think that among the 6 billion + people on the planet, none would take the prophecies of manufactured religion at face value and clamour for their fulfilment at the 'appointed time'?

The problem is that, based on the best scholarly research, the facts are that there probably never was a first "Temple of Solomon", and the Old Testament is not a true "history of the Jews". So, the question is: if Islam is predicated on two previously "manufactured" religions, what does that say about the faith of the Islamic fundamentalists?

The fact remains: There is an alliance between America and Israel in the war on Islam. They are both determined to establish Israeli control over Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple where the Dome of the Rock now stands, and the Palestinians are in the way. This is the core issue behind the current "War on Islam", disguised as a "War on Islamic Terrorists" or as it was later called, "War on those who hate our freedoms and Western civilization". And just as Christians and Jews are quite willing to sacrifice their own people for this monstrous agenda, so are Muslims undoubtedly raising up terrorists to do as much damage to the "infidels" as possible so as to save their holy site. But to really get a grip on the explosive situation, we have to lay the major share of the blame for Islamic terrorism in the current day, where the power has resided for a very long time: in the West, the Christian West...

To read the entire article, go HERE

 

[Laura]

Alex Jones: COINTELPRO

And for a peek at the ideas of those behind the Jeff Rense site, keeping in mind that Rense and Jones are serious cyber buddies:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Book Order]
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:13:12 -0500
From: James Neff <neff@tcworks.net>
To: Joe <joe@sott>
References: <417406DF.2010802@cassiopaea.com>
<p05100307bd99f4473f00@[65.132.36.207]>



Hey Joe,

Yes, Im trying something new, using a Flash animator to see if I can't
improve the quality and power of animation in banners... I'm new to it,
so it's taking me a little long to knock out the bugs and keep files
sizes down. Either way, I'll have something for you this evening --
guaranteed :) Sorry for the delay!

As per your question on the Jews, I don't think we'll see any resolution
to the conflict until the Second Coming. Only Christ will be able to
bridge the gap between Jews/Christians/Muslims, and will. Zechariah
12-14 tells us that when He returns, he will "cut off" (destroy) 2/3
that are in the land, but spare 1/3 of the Jews as a remnant, and they
will be vouchsafed, and survive to see and live in the Kingdom He will
establish, as mortals. This 1/3, in addition to the 144,000 male virgins
to be selected by Christ as a Millennial priesthood for the Jews, will
be the "national Israel" of the Kingdom period (1000 years). This
present Israel is what I call UNisrael. Its a fraud. It was created by
the UN. Most of the Jews in the land today are Askenasi's and not true
Jews. But the land will be rid of them, I believe, when Christ returns.

As the prophets say, "In that day they shall take hold of the arm of Jew
and say, 'Let us go with you, let us go up to the house of the Lord, and
learn of your ways.' The believers from the First Resurrection will be
immortals, and living and reign with Christ during that thousand year
period, with much to do, restoring the planet and civilization to a
righteous plane of existence. There's another interesting thing noted in
Zech 12-14; when Messiah descends from heaven, and his feet touch the
Mt. of Olivette (precisely where has ascended), it will split in two by
a great earthquake, and make a passage for the fleeing Jews, as
Armageddon breaks out -- which thankfully Christ will put to an end
before it even really begins, destroying the Son of Perdition
(Antichrist) and False Prophet, and obliterating the world's war machine
in one moment, by the word of his mouth. Then comes the saying, "they
shall beat their swords into plowshares, their spears into pruning
hooks, nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they
learn war anymore." The armies of the world will have been gathered
together in the great basin of Megiddo (Harmegadon) and there Christ
will destroy them. According to Isaiah, this becomes the "lake of fire,"
the place of lava and brimestone, which will burn throughout the 1000 yr
reign. This is Gehenna or "hell." This is also where the enemies of God
will be destroyed after the 1000 yr reign and the final judgment after
the Second Resurrection. Jesus even quotes Isaiah on this when he
mentions Gehenna, so we know precisely what "hell" he refers to.

The Jewish people have a date with destiny because they neglected their
calling, when they rejected Messiah. I believe that is the purpose of
the thousand years; to once again offer them, as a people, the
opportunity to walk in God's statutes and be obedient to him, and he
will dwell among us in the person of Jesus Messiah. But I think the
revelation hints at the fact that once again, they will fail, for the
most part... though there will always be a remnant according to God's
election and choice. The first century church itself was, truly, 'the
remnant of Israel', as they were all Jews when Christ came, and He
called out the elect ones.

I do believe UFOs and aliens will play a VERY big part in the last days.
If tomorrow a man with supernatural powers started performing miracles,
it wouldn't phase Dan Rather. It wouldn't make the evening news. Even if
he raised the dead. The secular world believes such things are nonsense,
or tricks. BUT, if a being from another world came, and claimed to be
our progenitor, our creator, and offered evidence, and demonstrated a
vast technology far beyond our comprehension, both scientist and
shepherd alike would be convinced. Worship is nothing more than total
allegiance, and this being -- the Son of Perdition -- will likely garner
this allegiance from the world; especially when he embarks on his
campaign of resolving world debt and bringing a false peace in the
mid-east. With his false prophet, he will be accepted as saviour of the
world; his "false miracles and wonders" will be advanced technology,
"even that he could call down fire from heaven in the presence of men."
He will be the perfect missing piece of every puzzle. He will be the
glorious muslim IMAM, the 7th Buddha (Maietreya), the Christ, the
ultimate Communist Man, the Zoroastrian "star-man," the Uberman for the
fascists, the Super Scientists for the empiricists, the "loving space
brother" for the Extraterrestrialists... just like Satan before his
fall, from whom he will take his power and authority, he will "fill up
the sum of the pattern of all things." I personally believe he will
possess the Ark of Covenant, which was, in effect, a transceiver between
YHWH and Moses/man. The Ark is also a throne, and this Evil One will
"take his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God,"
by sitting on the mercy seat of the Ark (precisely what Satan lost, for
when he was the "annointed Cherub which guarded" in the pre-history, it
was his duty to occupy the mercy seat of the heavenly Ark (throne) in
Christ's absence. When he began to take worship to himself in that mode,
he was "cast as dung from God's holy mountain" -- he declared he would
overcome this, saying, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my
throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the
congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights
of the clouds; I will be like the most High." It's interesting to me
that the Apostles labeled Judas "the son of perdition" in Acts, and the
Revelation tells us of the final evil king, whom some call the
antichrist, "who was, is not, and will be"... and Paul also calls the
evil one to come "the son of perdition, that man of sin." It is highly
possible that the suicide of Judas did not end his spiritual role in
events at all.

Ok, I'm blathering my head off now!! I'm sure you didn't want THAT!!!
hehee. But suffice it to say, the Jews will play a powerful role in the
end times, as it is they, chiefly, who will be first deceived by the
evil one, along with the church (the great falling away of 2 thess 2),
when the man of sin is "revealed."

James Neff
Webmaster - Rense.com
webmaster@rense.com
Digital Art & Design
http:(2 slash)www(dot)rense.com

Advertising At Rense.com
7 Million Hits A Month!

 

[Laura]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

Since we have broached the subject, there is something about the whole Jewish question that has been niggling in my brain for the past week or so. Here it is:

I think that the holocaust denial stuff is being set up as a major tar baby.

I also think that the whole 9/11 movement should join together and concentrate on ONE thing: the weak link in all of it, including any Zionist manipulations; and that is : concentrating on the CRIMINAL aspect of 911, that it was a CRIME and we need to force the issue of an independent investigation that is REALLY independent and thorough and bring the criminals to trial.

What forcing that single issue will accomplish is this: in the course of investigating the crime as it should be investigated (and this will have to be really forced) and bringing the criminals to trial, ALL ELSE will be exposed.

Right now, going after anything else, even writing endless articles about how MOSSAD "dunnit" and about AIPAC and the Zionist Lobby, and whether or not the Holocaust was a Jewish thing, or how many Jews did or did not die, or whether or not there were gas chambers, and on and on and on, is just a distraction and a trap. People like Farrell and Judy Andreas are setting up all these tar babies everywhere they go.

This is what clued me in: watching the actions of those that are pretty well exposed as "agents" whether conscious or not.

Look at the rants of kaminski. Nobody takes him seriously anymore because of his total focus on the Jewish issue, his almost rabid and bull doggish - and yes, even xenophobic - carryings on.

Of COURSE we all know that the Torah and Talmud and the whole Jewish shtick is about the nastiest thing that has ever been foisted on humanity! God knows, I've researched it enough and written enough about it.

But what I am seeing is a very clever maneuver.

I think that everyone with two firing neurons knows that MOSSAD dunnit, but the problem is getting that to fly with enough people from the masses of America (and the support of other countries, by the way), who would have to be backing a REAL 9/11 investigation as well as monitoring it. You just AIN'T gonna get that support from people who have been brainwashed by the Holocaust Industry propaganda if you go in with your guns firing on the Jews.

Take that to the bank.

So, if what we really want is to "get the criminals," whoever they may be, (and we have a pretty good idea who will be exposed here), then the way to do it is to go after the "perpetrators of 9/11 and just leave it at that. Let the actual investigation, the actual trials reveal them to the public eye in a natural, incremental way.

Remember that the World Public have been exposed to 20 or more years of heavy duty guilt programming on that. Yeah, we know that the people with guts and the ability to go after the truth no matter what it might be can face this truth and deal with it. But have a heart for the average person WHOSE SUPPORT YOU NEED. They just can't go there YET.

It's obvious that any sincere 9/11 researcher, writer, whatever, ends up shooting themselves in the foot when they go there. That's an observed fact.

Yeah, it's WRONG that people can't research and discuss this; it's WRONG that they have arrested Irving and the others; it's downright criminal. But there are so many other wrong things they are doing, like killing women and children in Palestine and Iraq, and the U.S. and about everywhere else that you can write or rant until the end of time and never count them all.

So we have to think strategically. We have to find the weak link and go for that.

Stop and think about what we see in the broad overview of the whole situation: we see that Mossad was likely the mastermind - heck, writing that article about Mossad and Moving Companies is what got me invited on Rense and started the new campaign of defamation simultaneously. And what Rense tried to bait me into doing was "going after the Jews."

Kaminski has been baited and took the bait... Look where he is now.

What we see in the broad overview is that the key issue of the criminal act, that a CRIME was committed, that it is an obvious one, that it COULD be prosecuted if we could focus on it, has been completely diverted by the "The Jews did it, so let's just go after everything Jewish" thing.

The very fact that Rense continuously and repeatedly supports Zundel and Holocaust revisionism tells us that this is what they WANT people to go for... this is the BAIT.

It's all to make people look bad in the eyes of the wider audience - the masses of Americans who don't have the stomach to go against their own programming - not to mention the global audience with similar programming.

Even if the alternative news readers know the score, what we really need is wider base of support that is bigger than the online alternative/conspiracy community: we need the support of regular people who can - at least - grok the fact that a crime has been committed on 911 and it has been covered up. We will lose that support by hanging out with the holocaust revisionist people even if we think that - for the most part - they are right.

Another really spooky question is this: What if the stuff the Holocaust Reviz people are promoting is also falsified to be a tarbaby? Did anybody ever think of that? Geeze, what a trap that would be.

And that is not impossible considering the resources and power of those seeking to control the world.

We gotta remember that we are dealing with very powerful criminals here with unlimited resources and it is NOT a game. Believe me, if anybody comes close to the truth, comes close to getting a following, they are gonna be smeared, marginalized, have every aspect of their ability to get the word out hampered in every way (and we know, we have lived with this crap for years now), and it is going to be done in such a way as to keep the hands of the PTB clean, as well as their "straw man opposition."

I should also add that I'm currently working on the second edition of 911 and we have some really explosive stuff about the Jews in there, so don't think I'm soft on it; I ain't - not by a long shot. I just know that when you are dealing with so much power and money you have to be a lot smarter than them... and you have to pick your battles carefully...

He who has the will of a lion does not have the fate of a mouse.

Even if we ARE mice facing a whole pack of hungry croco-gators.

 

[Laura]

Alex Jones: COINTELPRO

Since we have broached the subject, there is something about the whole Jewish question that has been niggling in my brain for the past week or so. Here it is:

I think that the holocaust denial stuff is being set up as a major tar baby.

I also think that the whole 9/11 movement should join together and concentrate on ONE thing: the weak link in all of it, including any Zionist manipulations; and that is : concentrating on the CRIMINAL aspect of 911, that it was a CRIME and we need to force the issue of an independent investigation that is REALLY independent and thorough and bring the criminals to trial.

What forcing that single issue will accomplish is this: in the course of investigating the crime as it should be investigated (and this will have to be really forced) and bringing the criminals to trial, ALL ELSE will be exposed.

Right now, going after anything else, even writing endless articles about how MOSSAD "dunnit" and about AIPAC and the Zionist Lobby, and whether or not the Holocaust was a Jewish thing, or how many Jews did or did not die, or whether or not there were gas chambers, and on and on and on, is just a distraction and a trap. People like Farrell and Judy Andreas are setting up all these tar babies everywhere they go.

This is what clued me in: watching the actions of those that are pretty well exposed as "agents" whether conscious or not.

Look at the rants of kaminski. Nobody takes him seriously anymore because of his total focus on the Jewish issue, his almost rabid and bull doggish - and yes, even xenophobic - carryings on.

Of COURSE we all know that the Torah and Talmud and the whole Jewish shtick is about the nastiest thing that has ever been foisted on humanity! God knows, I've researched it enough and written enough about it.

But what I am seeing is a very clever maneuver.

I think that everyone with two firing neurons knows that MOSSAD dunnit, but the problem is getting that to fly with enough people from the masses of America (and the support of other countries, by the way), who would have to be backing a REAL 9/11 investigation as well as monitoring it. You just AIN'T gonna get that support from people who have been brainwashed by the Holocaust Industry propaganda if you go in with your guns firing on the Jews.

Take that to the bank.

So, if what we really want is to "get the criminals," whoever they may be, (and we have a pretty good idea who will be exposed here), then the way to do it is to go after the "perpetrators of 9/11 and just leave it at that. Let the actual investigation, the actual trials reveal them to the public eye in a natural, incremental way.

Remember that the World Public have been exposed to 20 or more years of heavy duty guilt programming on that. Yeah, we know that the people with guts and the ability to go after the truth no matter what it might be can face this truth and deal with it. But have a heart for the average person WHOSE SUPPORT YOU NEED. They just can't go there YET.

It's obvious that any sincere 9/11 researcher, writer, whatever, ends up shooting themselves in the foot when they go there. That's an observed fact.

Yeah, it's WRONG that people can't research and discuss this; it's WRONG that they have arrested Irving and the others; it's downright criminal. But there are so many other wrong things they are doing, like killing women and children in Palestine and Iraq, and the U.S. and about everywhere else that you can write or rant until the end of time and never count them all.

So we have to think strategically. We have to find the weak link and go for that.

Stop and think about what we see in the broad overview of the whole situation: we see that Mossad was likely the mastermind - heck, writing that article about Mossad and Moving Companies is what got me invited on Rense and started the new campaign of defamation simultaneously. And what Rense tried to bait me into doing was "going after the Jews."

Kaminski has been baited and took the bait... Look where he is now.

What we see in the broad overview is that the key issue of the criminal act, that a CRIME was committed, that it is an obvious one, that it COULD be prosecuted if we could focus on it, has been completely diverted by the "The Jews did it, so let's just go after everything Jewish" thing.

The very fact that Rense continuously and repeatedly supports Zundel and Holocaust revisionism tells us that this is what they WANT people to go for... this is the BAIT.

It's all to make people look bad in the eyes of the wider audience - the masses of Americans who don't have the stomach to go against their own programming - not to mention the global audience with similar programming.

Even if the alternative news readers know the score, what we really need is wider base of support that is bigger than the online alternative/conspiracy community: we need the support of regular people who can - at least - grok the fact that a crime has been committed on 911 and it has been covered up. We will lose that support by hanging out with the holocaust revisionist people even if we think that - for the most part - they are right.

Another really spooky question is this: What if the stuff the Holocaust Reviz people are promoting is also falsified to be a tarbaby? Did anybody ever think of that? Geeze, what a trap that would be.

And that is not impossible considering the resources and power of those seeking to control the world.

We gotta remember that we are dealing with very powerful criminals here with unlimited resources and it is NOT a game. Believe me, if anybody comes close to the truth, comes close to getting a following, they are gonna be smeared, marginalized, have every aspect of their ability to get the word out hampered in every way (and we know, we have lived with this crap for years now), and it is going to be done in such a way as to keep the hands of the PTB clean, as well as their "straw man opposition."

I should also add that I'm currently working on the second edition of 911 and we have some really explosive stuff about the Jews in there, so don't think I'm soft on it; I ain't - not by a long shot. I just know that when you are dealing with so much power and money you have to be a lot smarter than them... and you have to pick your battles carefully...

He who has the will of a lion does not have the fate of a mouse.

Even if we ARE mice facing a whole pack of hungry croco-gators.

 

[Laura]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

The following is exactly the thing that is needed to press for a new, independent, (really, really, really independent!) investigation of 9/11. Nothing else will do. So, let's see how many 9/11 "truth" people go for that angle, insisting also that EVERY aspect of 9/11 be totally and completely re-investigated including the Pentagon strike:

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341238.shtml

BYU Physics Prof Finds Thermate in WTC Physical Samples, Building Collapses an Inside Job By Jacob Hamblin, Portland Independent Media Center

WTC steel with diagonal cut, thermate residue. Based on chemical analysis of WTC structural steel residue, a Brigham Young University physics professor has identified the material as Thermate. Thermate is the controlled demolition explosive thermite plus sulfur. Sulfur causes the thermite to burn hotter, cutting steel quickly and leaving trails of yellow colored residue

wtc steel with diagonal cut, thermate residue


Prof. Steven Jones, who conducted his PhD research at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and post-doctoral research at Cornell University and the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility, has analyzed materials from the WTC and has detected the existence of thermate, used for "cutting" the steel support columns.

Dr. Jones is a co-founder of Scholars for 911 Truth.

Dr. Jones in earlier work pointed to thermate as the likely explosive that brought down the WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 skyscrapers. See the original research work here:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

But only recently was physical material analyzed in the lab and the presence of thermate announced. The samples were provided Dr. Jones team from redundant sources.

See recent comments regarding Prof. Jones' "Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?"

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Comments_Jones_05May2006.html

Both BYU and Prof. Jones have been offered additional grants if he would "change the direction" of his research. In addition, there have been threats made by an individual who "is taking action" to stop Dr. Jones' research, specifically his experiment with thermites (aluminothermics), on the grounds his work may be helpful to "terrorists". Jones notes that much more detailed information on both thermite and thermate is readily available on the internet.

 

[Laura]

Alex Jones: COINTELPRO

The following is exactly the thing that is needed to press for a new, independent, (really, really, really independent!) investigation of 9/11. Nothing else will do. So, let's see how many 9/11 "truth" people go for that angle, insisting also that EVERY aspect of 9/11 be totally and completely re-investigated including the Pentagon strike:

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341238.shtml

BYU Physics Prof Finds Thermate in WTC Physical Samples, Building Collapses an Inside Job By Jacob Hamblin, Portland Independent Media Center

WTC steel with diagonal cut, thermate residue. Based on chemical analysis of WTC structural steel residue, a Brigham Young University physics professor has identified the material as Thermate. Thermate is the controlled demolition explosive thermite plus sulfur. Sulfur causes the thermite to burn hotter, cutting steel quickly and leaving trails of yellow colored residue

wtc steel with diagonal cut, thermate residue


Prof. Steven Jones, who conducted his PhD research at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and post-doctoral research at Cornell University and the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility, has analyzed materials from the WTC and has detected the existence of thermate, used for "cutting" the steel support columns.

Dr. Jones is a co-founder of Scholars for 911 Truth.

Dr. Jones in earlier work pointed to thermate as the likely explosive that brought down the WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 skyscrapers. See the original research work here:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

But only recently was physical material analyzed in the lab and the presence of thermate announced. The samples were provided Dr. Jones team from redundant sources.

See recent comments regarding Prof. Jones' "Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?"

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Comments_Jones_05May2006.html

Both BYU and Prof. Jones have been offered additional grants if he would "change the direction" of his research. In addition, there have been threats made by an individual who "is taking action" to stop Dr. Jones' research, specifically his experiment with thermites (aluminothermics), on the grounds his work may be helpful to "terrorists". Jones notes that much more detailed information on both thermite and thermate is readily available on the internet.

 

[Charles]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

Clearly the number one shill is Alex Jones. He is simply a reaction machine whose ranting and raving is directed at the reaction machines in others. The reaction machine within us, when cut off from our essential nature, is simply a reflex mechanism responding to the ever changing influences of the environment. It could only affirm, negate, or acquiesce to impulses coming from the environment at any given moment. It can't think for itself or do for itself. But it thinks it can. When Alex 'does' his audience thinks it is they who are also 'doing.' When Alex Jones affirms his audience affirms. When he denies his audience denies. When he acquiesces his audience acquiesces . His audience is simply a reaction machine to mirror the reactions of the primary reaction machine known as Alex Jones.

While reading this thread, I saw a fine link with what I just experienced with an acquaintance in a bar.

He was all freaked out by the name "Monsanto", by the "name" mind you, and not by what is actually moving and being present behind that name. This became clear when he said:

"Alas Alas", while looking sheepishly , "I happen to have used a product of Monsanto."

What was suddenly evident to me was that he wasn't thinking, he was just playing some kind of glitter magic with words, names of companies in this case. He didn't see the dynamic behind those names. When I confronted him with the danger in this, my sharing deflected consistently on a tough inner kernel, all evening long even, and carried into many other subjects and doing the same thing with words. Gosh it's been a day for me :(

Alluding to that presence that sees the reaction machine. If absent one does not THINK. One offers the thinking to something else. It is offered, and thus IT is no longer thinking. And part of thinghood.

 

[mk31]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

I think it's a little brazen to think that we somehow know better than any others as to who is a shill and who isn't a shill. Like I said, I do have a problem with the way that some of these guys cover some issues, but to say that they are outright shills is just a bit far-fetched in my opinion.

Well, wait until you listen to this weekend's podcast; if you've got two neurons firing, I think you'll get it. Track the links, see what the "pals" of people like Alex Jones and Rense are doing, their "good buddies" behind the scenes, how they send them out to attack and defame other people so that they can keep their hands clean.

And if you don't think that this is the way things work, what planet were you born on? Can you dress yourself without assistance?

Finally, if Jones and Rense are NOT Neocon sponsored "controlled opposition shills" then they are certainly filling the role quite well on their own initiative.

Coincidence?

We think not.

I don't think it helps any of the parties involved if questions about the topic are responded to
with ridicule. First time poster here but from an outsider's perspective on this forum there
seems to be some elitism from some of the senior members. I've just started reading your
book, "the High strangeness..." and so far have been quite taken with it Laura but I'm surprised
and I think it's unfortunate that you would take this kind of tone even when you feel your position to
be solid and correct. I am the first to admit that I have much to learn about "the true
nature of reality" but the fact that I and other's are here states the fact that we are curious
and our questions are an attempt to come closer to this understanding.

I am not alone in my opinion that Mr. Jones (and Mr. Icke!) presented me with information that
I was not aware of and I think every citizen of the planet should be. They have also been
gateways of other information to me (as meeting Beau on a myspace forum pointed me
to explore some of your work). Now I'm perfectly willing to evolve and revise my beliefs
(this discussion and the other regarding mr. jones and rense have been very informative)
but I think it is important not to accuse someone of not being able to dress themselves
or that they have less that two neurons firing when they present their ideas.

You guys are trying to help right? And I'm grateful for what you are trying to do but part
of that desire to help us mere mortals surely must include being patient with those who don't
yet see things as you do.

I look forward to finishing your book.

-Marcus


also, is there a thread on this forum discussing Mr. Icke and why he should not be listened to?
I, for the sake of my own understanding and quest for knowledge would like to review it
so I can understand the situation as best i can.

 

[mk31]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

Since we have broached the subject, there is something about the whole Jewish question that has been niggling in my brain for the past week or so. Here it is:

I think that the holocaust denial stuff is being set up as a major tar baby.

I also think that the whole 9/11 movement should join together and concentrate on ONE thing: the weak link in all of it, including any Zionist manipulations; and that is : concentrating on the CRIMINAL aspect of 911, that it was a CRIME and we need to force the issue of an independent investigation that is REALLY independent and thorough and bring the criminals to trial.

What forcing that single issue will accomplish is this: in the course of investigating the crime as it should be investigated (and this will have to be really forced) and bringing the criminals to trial, ALL ELSE will be exposed.

Right now, going after anything else, even writing endless articles about how MOSSAD "dunnit" and about AIPAC and the Zionist Lobby, and whether or not the Holocaust was a Jewish thing, or how many Jews did or did not die, or whether or not there were gas chambers, and on and on and on, is just a distraction and a trap. People like Farrell and Judy Andreas are setting up all these tar babies everywhere they go.

This is what clued me in: watching the actions of those that are pretty well exposed as "agents" whether conscious or not.

Look at the rants of kaminski. Nobody takes him seriously anymore because of his total focus on the Jewish issue, his almost rabid and bull doggish - and yes, even xenophobic - carryings on.

Of COURSE we all know that the Torah and Talmud and the whole Jewish shtick is about the nastiest thing that has ever been foisted on humanity! God knows, I've researched it enough and written enough about it.

But what I am seeing is a very clever maneuver.

I think that everyone with two firing neurons knows that MOSSAD dunnit, but the problem is getting that to fly with enough people from the masses of America (and the support of other countries, by the way), who would have to be backing a REAL 9/11 investigation as well as monitoring it. You just AIN'T gonna get that support from people who have been brainwashed by the Holocaust Industry propaganda if you go in with your guns firing on the Jews.

Take that to the bank.

So, if what we really want is to "get the criminals," whoever they may be, (and we have a pretty good idea who will be exposed here), then the way to do it is to go after the "perpetrators of 9/11 and just leave it at that. Let the actual investigation, the actual trials reveal them to the public eye in a natural, incremental way.

Remember that the World Public have been exposed to 20 or more years of heavy duty guilt programming on that. Yeah, we know that the people with guts and the ability to go after the truth no matter what it might be can face this truth and deal with it. But have a heart for the average person WHOSE SUPPORT YOU NEED. They just can't go there YET.

It's obvious that any sincere 9/11 researcher, writer, whatever, ends up shooting themselves in the foot when they go there. That's an observed fact.

Yeah, it's WRONG that people can't research and discuss this; it's WRONG that they have arrested Irving and the others; it's downright criminal. But there are so many other wrong things they are doing, like killing women and children in Palestine and Iraq, and the U.S. and about everywhere else that you can write or rant until the end of time and never count them all.

So we have to think strategically. We have to find the weak link and go for that.

Stop and think about what we see in the broad overview of the whole situation: we see that Mossad was likely the mastermind - heck, writing that article about Mossad and Moving Companies is what got me invited on Rense and started the new campaign of defamation simultaneously. And what Rense tried to bait me into doing was "going after the Jews."

Kaminski has been baited and took the bait... Look where he is now.

What we see in the broad overview is that the key issue of the criminal act, that a CRIME was committed, that it is an obvious one, that it COULD be prosecuted if we could focus on it, has been completely diverted by the "The Jews did it, so let's just go after everything Jewish" thing.

The very fact that Rense continuously and repeatedly supports Zundel and Holocaust revisionism tells us that this is what they WANT people to go for... this is the BAIT.

It's all to make people look bad in the eyes of the wider audience - the masses of Americans who don't have the stomach to go against their own programming - not to mention the global audience with similar programming.

Even if the alternative news readers know the score, what we really need is wider base of support that is bigger than the online alternative/conspiracy community: we need the support of regular people who can - at least - grok the fact that a crime has been committed on 911 and it has been covered up. We will lose that support by hanging out with the holocaust revisionist people even if we think that - for the most part - they are right.

Another really spooky question is this: What if the stuff the Holocaust Reviz people are promoting is also falsified to be a tarbaby? Did anybody ever think of that? Geeze, what a trap that would be.

And that is not impossible considering the resources and power of those seeking to control the world.

We gotta remember that we are dealing with very powerful criminals here with unlimited resources and it is NOT a game. Believe me, if anybody comes close to the truth, comes close to getting a following, they are gonna be smeared, marginalized, have every aspect of their ability to get the word out hampered in every way (and we know, we have lived with this crap for years now), and it is going to be done in such a way as to keep the hands of the PTB clean, as well as their "straw man opposition."

I should also add that I'm currently working on the second edition of 911 and we have some really explosive stuff about the Jews in there, so don't think I'm soft on it; I ain't - not by a long shot. I just know that when you are dealing with so much power and money you have to be a lot smarter than them... and you have to pick your battles carefully...

He who has the will of a lion does not have the fate of a mouse.

Even if we ARE mice facing a whole pack of hungry croco-gators.

Very interesting post Laura. I like your focused idea and your goal of taking back the power
of the situation while persuing these crooks. I think you're on the right track, the question
is HOW do you begin this process? I'm asking this with genuine curiosity because I would
like to support something like this, I'm just not sure exactly where to focus my efforts? It
seems to me that traditional methods and procedures for courts of law will not be able
to accomplish this? I know this requires thinking "outside of the box," but can you help me
to understand some of your proposed strategies?

thanks.

-mk31

 

[The Gardener]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

the fact that I and other's are here states the fact that we are
curious and our questions are an attempt to come closer to this understanding.

It is a lye that the presence of you and others here states the fact that you and/or others are curious. Your curiosity is not evident straight from your presence. And if indeed you are here because you are curious, that is your problem and no one is going to thank you neither your presence here, nor your curiosity with the which you try to award.
What is really curious is your first post: It is a reaction to what was said to another one (whos posts you have not been reading, this is evident). You call the attention of Laura on your first post, because you are "curious"?
And what question have you formulated? The questions of "you guys" ["our questions", you say), are demanding information that has been discussed here over... and over.... and over.... and over again, and "you guys" come to the party, each one of you, asking for a briefing of what is going on: You are given that briefing. And "you guys" do not approve.
Well, cool. No one here has a problem with your disagreement. Yet "you guys" push it again, and again, and again. There has been many like you. One of "you guys" wanted to save Laura from that mistaken and dangerous road she has been walking. And he wanted to be thanked (as you want to hear some sort of appology, so you can remain here because you are "curious"?).
But this of course is not directly addressed to you, Marcus. After all, this is your first post, is it not? So you can very easily feel save from the asociation with "those guys" YOU talk about -this attempt to move to the shadow will not work.
So your questions are an attempt to come closer to this understanding? The only question I can localize on your first post is asking to let you know why you should not listen to Mr Icke. This is a manipulation on your part, and it wont work: No one has advised to stop hearing Jones or Mr. Icke, as you respectfully call it.
Actually, the understanding you ask to be given can be boiled down to why are we taking from you the personalities you so much love (those who have guided you during so long; those you think are "brave enough to say the things as they are"): This is what bothers you from us on your "quest for knowledge". Have you perform a search on the forum about Icke and Jones? Have you been reading the threads as to come to GIVE something? No. You come to react on anothers sore toe.
Then, the Trolls Siege slides the next under the door:

but I think it is important not to accuse someone of not being able to dress themselves or that they have less that two neurons firing when they present their ideas.

Are you saying CyberChrist is actually able to dress him self?
And I think one does not needs more than two neurons to jump in and ask what you have asked. And I think it is important to talk about your self, and only talk on the name of others when you are shure this others are on your side, as you have recognized it.
So you see, two neurons.

also, is there a thread on this forum discussing Mr. Icke and why he should not be listened to?

er... Yes? And let me advance it might not be what you want to read. it might damage your quest for knowledge, mind you.
It DOES damages the image of Mr Icke. You want to save it? I think you do, like all those newposters here offended because we think Jones, Icke and oh so manyh others are cointelpro. You dont belive this? Welcome to Cassiopaea.

So, stop telling Laura what to say, and pay more attention on what you say, oky-doky, Marcus?

PD: I see with my third eye powers that you will call the "newbi" argument to try to express some unconfort due to my observations: Dont. Leave that argument to a newbi. Bring something worthy instead, and not your programed suceptibility.

 

[The Gardener]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

but can you help me to understand some of your proposed strategies?

You mean you dont know? You mean you cannot find on the whole website anything pointing to solve this your curiosity?

 

[Fifth Way]

Alex Jones: COINTELPRO

Sorry j0da, but since I am a new member here, I assume that this post is addressing me as well. I have not searched the forums because I am replying to an ongoing discussion, not starting new threads. I disagree that there are no new facts being posted nor that understanding is not being expanding. I am questioning some of the assumptions because it is in my nature to do so. Whether it's my 5th post or 500th post, I am seeking to clarify what I am reading.

I am sorry that you think that the new members are not good additions. But I don't think that high post counts is necessarily a moral high ground either.

As for my background, in case you were wondering, I came here because I was on a message board that discussed the C's for nearly 2 years before this forum was available. I have read Laura's books and I found them to be very interesting, but I did not come here to "add to the noise" as some may say. I am here to learn and to discuss. I am sorry that you just view the posts as "traffic".

Try not to take it personally, Cyber, Joda is merely pointing out that since the podcasts started discussing cointelpro in such an open and detailed way, this forum has been not only a bit more active, but more active in a more 'accusatory and aggressive' way, as opposed to the way it was previously, which was more measured, thought out and, well, calm, really. I'm not saying that this is necessarily bad, however, posts of late, especially in the cointelpro threads have been much more heated than we are used to, and that I , personally, am really comfortable with - but - that doesn't mean that they aren't teaching us things.

It seems that since the CoIntelPro topic has been discussed, we have simply had more emotionally fueled posts than usual, and this may be what Joda is picking up on. I too have felt a bit of erratic, angry energy of late on the forum, which I find a bit disconcerting, but this too, may well pass if we stick to facts, research and an attempt at objective discernment. ( I now see that Eso addressed this while I was typing - posts are coming fast and 'furious' lately. ;) )

About that notorious email and its specific sentence:

Giving you a heads up, your members are being informed.

What I am seeing is that a variety of "new" people popped up on this forum. While this is a good thing in principle, it feels like a number of "them" are here to confuse manipulate and twist - even try to discredit experienced long time posters.

And I think that is meant by "being informed".

So all be extra cautious and discerning and don't let anybody get away with anything!

 

[Laura]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

I don't think it helps any of the parties involved if questions about the topic are responded to
with ridicule. First time poster here but from an outsider's perspective on this forum there
seems to be some elitism from some of the senior members. I've just started reading your
book, "the High strangeness..." and so far have been quite taken with it Laura but I'm surprised
and I think it's unfortunate that you would take this kind of tone even when you feel your position to
be solid and correct. I am the first to admit that I have much to learn about "the true
nature of reality" but the fact that I and other's are here states the fact that we are curious
and our questions are an attempt to come closer to this understanding.

Let's not be disingenuous mk. If you are aware of our work, you are certainly aware of 1) the possibilities of hyperdimensional manipulations; 2) the work of Andrzej Lobaczewski - Ponerology - which actually obviates the necessity for hyperdimensional explanations though it doesn't negate such as a reality. Fact is, ponerological networks of deviant personality types form pretty much the same way that fat collects together on the soup.

As you might suppose if your neurons were firing, at this point in time, we've had a LOT of experience dealing with attack and attackers, both the blatant and more subtle "butter wouldn't melt in my mouth" kind. We can spot 'em usually in the first sentence. You have been spotted.

For any readers who want to have the "experience" just read the following threads from start to finish:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1093

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=395

... where we do actually take the time to allow the "agents" to express themselves and then, gradually, as the discussion proceeds, see that they expose themselves in quite dramatic ways. I want to point out that these types do the same stuff over and over again; you'd think that they would get creative and try something different.

Observation and evidence indicates that, certainly, individuals can behave as agents without being conscious that they are fully functional ponerological (network of evil) elements; that's a given. But based on the fact that you were just "attracted to this discussion" like a moth to a flame suggests otherwise.

Now, sure, I could do the pas de deux with you for a few days, maybe a week, and eventually you would be outted in your full schizotypal glory, but why bother? I have better, more creative things to do - like finish the second edition of our 9/11 book in which we are taking the gloves off across the board. I've also got two other books in progress, one of which is about people just like you: a layman's guide to Ponerology "Wolves and Sheep."

Speaking of sheep, did you ever hear the term "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing?"

Sure you have. The concept is that there are wolves among us that dress up like sheep, pretend to be just innocent questioners, try to act like they are civilized and just "doing this for your own good." Well, when anybody says that they "hate to say this, but it's for your own good," run like hell. It's a sure sign of the Wolf in Sheep's Clothing.

Now, for any readers of this thread who want to get the REAL Scoop, start with our work on Ponerology
Political Ponerology: A Science on The Nature of Evil adjusted for Political Purposes

And then move to some more directed studies of psychopathy and other types of deviant behavior:

The Psychopath: The Mask of Sanity

You will also notice many links on the sidebar in the psychopathy section to articles, both on our site and offsite, that will educate you so that you, too, can spot deviants like "mk" in the first sentence. Among these articles is a review/synopsis of psychologist George Simon's book cleverly entitled: In Sheep's Clothing.

From this most interesting book we learn about folks like mk in the following:

There are two basic types of aggression: overt-aggression and covert-aggression. When you're determined to have something and you're open, direct and obvious in your manner of fighting, your behavior is best labeled overtly aggressive. When you're out to "win," dominate or control, but are subtle, underhanded or deceptive enough to hide your true intentions, your behavior is most appropriately labeled covertly aggressive. Now, avoiding any overt display of aggression while simultaneously intimidating others into giving you what you want is a powerfully manipulative maneuver. That's why covert-aggression is most often the vehicle for interpersonal manipulation.

The Process of Victimization

For a long time, I wondered why manipulation victims have a hard time seeing what really goes on in manipulative interactions. At first, I was tempted to fault them. But I've learned that they get hoodwinked for some very good reasons:

1. A manipulator's aggression is not obvious. Our gut may tell us that they're fighting for something, struggling to overcome us, gain power, or have their way, and we find ourselves unconsciously on the defensive. But because we can't point to clear, objective evidence they're aggressing against us, we can't readily validate our feelings.

2. The tactics manipulators use can make it seem like they're hurting, caring, defending, ..., almost anything but fighting. These tactics are hard to recognize as merely clever ploys. They always make just enough sense to make a person doubt their gut hunch that they're being taken advantage of or abused. Besides, the tactics not only make it hard for you to consciously and objectively tell that a manipulator is fighting, but they also simultaneously keep you or consciously on the defensive. These features make them highly effective psychological weapons to which anyone can be vulnerable. It's hard to think clearly when someone has you emotionally on the run.

3. All of us have weaknesses and insecurities that a clever manipulator might exploit. Sometimes, we're aware of these weaknesses and how someone might use them to take advantage of us. For example, I hear parents say things like: "Yeah, I know I have a big guilt button." - But at the time their manipulative child is busily pushing that button, they can easily forget what's really going on. Besides, sometimes we're unaware of our biggest vulnerabilities. Manipulators often know us better than we know ourselves. They know what buttons to push, when and how hard. Our lack of self-knowledge sets us up to be exploited.

4. What our gut tells us a manipulator is like, challenges everything we've been taught to believe about human nature. We've been inundated with a psychology that has us seeing everybody, at least to some degree, as afraid, insecure or "hung-up." So, while our gut tells us we're dealing with a ruthless conniver, our head tells us they must be really frightened or wounded "underneath." What's more, most of us generally hate to think of ourselves as callous and insensitive people. We hesitate to make harsh or seemingly negative judgments about others. We want to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't really harbor the malevolent intentions we suspect. We're more apt to doubt and blame ourselves for daring to believe what our gut tells us about our manipulator's character. [...]

While, from a certain perspective we might say someone engaging in these behaviors is defending their ego from any sense of shame or guilt, it's important to realize that at the time the aggressor is exhibiting these behaviors, he is not primarily defending (i.e. attempting to prevent some internally painful event from occurring), but rather fighting to maintain position, gain power and to remove any obstacles (both internal and external) in the way of getting what he wants.

Seeing the aggressor as on the defensive in any sense is a set-up for victimization.

Recognizing that they're primarily on the offensive, mentally prepares a person for the decisive action they need to take in order to avoid being run over.

Therefore, I think it's best to conceptualize many of the mental behaviors (no matter how "automatic" or "unconscious" they may appear) we often think of as defense mechanisms, as offensive power tactics, because aggressive personalities employ them primarily to manipulate, control and achieve dominance over others.

Rather than trying to prevent something emotionally painful or dreadful from happening, anyone using these tactics is primarily trying to ensure that something they want to happen does indeed happen. [...]

Denial - This is when the aggressor refuses to admit that they've done something harmful or hurtful when they clearly have. It's a way they lie (to themselves as well as to others) about their aggressive intentions. This "Who... Me?" tactic is a way of "playing innocent," and invites the victim to feel unjustified in confronting the aggressor about the inappropriateness of a behavior. It's also the way the aggressor gives him/herself permission to keep right on doing what they want to do. This denial is not the same kind of denial that a person who has just lost a loved one and can't quite bear to accept the pain and reality of the loss engages in. That type of denial really is mostly a "defense" against unbearable hurt and anxiety. Rather, this type of denial is not primarily a "defense" but a maneuver the aggressor uses to get others to back off, back down or maybe even feel guilty themselves for insinuating he's doing something wrong. [...]

Selective Inattention - This tactic is similar to and sometimes mistaken for denial It's when the aggressor "plays dumb," or acts oblivious. When engaging in this tactic, the aggressor actively ignores the warnings, pleas or wishes of others, and in general, refuses to pay attention to everything and anything that might distract them from pursuing their own agenda. Often, the aggressor knows full well what you want from him when he starts to exhibit this "I don't want to hear it!" behavior. By using this tactic, the aggressor actively resists submitting himself to the tasks of paying attention...

Rationalization - A rationalization is the excuse an aggressor tries to offer for engaging in an inappropriate or harmful behavior. It can be an effective tactic, especially when the explanation or justification the aggressor offers makes just enough sense that any reasonably conscientious person is likely to fall for it. It's a powerful tactic because it not only serves to remove any internal resistance the aggressor might have about doing what he wants to do (quieting any qualms of conscience he might have) but also to keep others off his back. If the aggressor can convince you he's justified in whatever he's doing, then he's freer to pursue his goals without interference. [...]

Diversion - A moving target is hard to hit. When we try to pin a manipulator down or try to keep a discussion focused on a single issue or behavior we don't like, he's expert at knowing how to change the subject, dodge the issue or in some way throw us a curve. Manipulators use distraction and diversion techniques to keep the focus off their behavior, move us off-track, and keep themselves free to promote their self-serving hidden agendas. [...]

Lying - It's often hard to tell when a person is lying at the time he's doing it. Fortunately, there are times when the truth will out because circumstances don't bear out somebody's story. But there are also times when you don't know you've been deceived until it's too late. One way to minimize the chances that someone will put one over on you is to remember that because aggressive personalities of all types will generally stop at nothing to get what they want, you can expect them to lie and cheat.

Another thing to remember is that manipulators - covert-aggressive personalities that they are - are prone to lie in subtle, covert ways. Courts are well aware of the many ways that people lie, as they require that court oaths charge that testifiers tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Manipulators often lie by withholding a significant amount of the truth from you or by distorting the truth. They are adept at being vague when you ask them direct questions. This is an especially slick way of lying' omission. Keep this in mind when dealing with a suspected wolf in sheep's clothing. [...]

Covert Intimidation - Aggressors frequently threaten their victims to keep them anxious, apprehensive and in a one-down position. Covert-aggressives intimidate their victims by making veiled (subtle, indirect or implied) threats. Guilt-tripping and shaming are two of the covert-aggressive's favourite weapons. Both are special intimidation tactics.

Guilt-tripping - One thing that aggressive personalities know well is that other types of persons have very different consciences than they do. Manipulators are often skilled at using what they know to be the greater conscientiousness of their victims as a means of keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious, and submissive position. The more conscientious the potential victim, the more effective guilt is as a weapon.

Aggressive personalities of all types use guilt-tripping so frequently and effectively as a manipulative tactic, that I believe it illustrates how fundamentally different in character they are compared to other (especially neurotic) personalities. All a manipulator has to do is suggest to the conscientious person that they don't care enough, are too selfish, etc., and that person immediately starts to feel bad. On the contrary, a conscientious person might try until they're blue in the face to get a manipulator (or any other aggressive personality) to feel badly about a hurtful behavior, acknowledge responsibility, or admit wrongdoing, to absolutely no avail.

Shaming - This is the technique of using subtle sarcasm and put-downs as a means of increasing fear and self-doubt in others. Covert-aggressives use this tactic to make others feel inadequate or unworthy, and therefore, defer to them. It's an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance. [...]

Playing the Victim Role - This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering. Therefore, the tactic is simple. Convince your victim you're suffering in some way, and they'll try to relieve your distress. [...]

Vilifying the Victim - This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive. [...]

Playing the Servant Role - Covert-aggressives use this tactic to cloak their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. It's a common tactic but difficult to recognize. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. [...]

A recent scandal involving a tele-evangelist resulted in his church's governance body censuring him for one year. But he told his congregation he couldn't stop his ministry because he had to be faithful to the Lord's will (God supposedly talked to him and told him not to quit). This minister was clearly being defiant of his church's established authority. Yet, he presented himself as a person being humbly submissive to the "highest" authority. One hallmark characteristic of covert-aggressive personalities is loudly professing subservience while fighting for dominance.

Seduction - Covert-aggressive personalities are adept at charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty. Covert-aggressives are also particularly aware that people who are to some extent emotionally needy and dependent (and that includes most people who aren't character-disordered) want approval, reassurance, and a sense of being valued and needed more than anything. Appearing to be attentive to these needs can be a manipulator's ticket to incredible power over others. [...]

Projecting the blame (blaming others) - Aggressive personalities are always looking for a way to shift the blame for their aggressive behavior. Covert-aggressives are not only skilled at finding scapegoats, they're expert at doing so in subtle, hard to detect ways.

Minimization - This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with rationalization. When using this maneuver, the aggressor is attempting to assert that his abusive behavior isn't really as harmful or irresponsible as someone else may be claiming. It's the aggressor's attempt to make a molehill out of a mountain.

I've presented the principal tactics that covert-aggressives use to manipulate and control others. They are not always easy to recognize. Although all aggressive personalities tend to use these tactics, covert-aggressives generally use them slickly, subtly and adeptly. Anyone dealing with a covertly aggressive person will need to heighten gut-level sensitivity to the use of these tactics if they're to avoid being taken in by them.

In short, mk, I got your number in the first paragraph (and the rest of your pals, too.) As The Gardener sez: its a Trolls Siege.

 

[mk31]

Viewer's Poll: Alex Jones Voted # 1 Shill

wow.

I attempted to phrase my question as respectfully as posssible, I meant
no disrespect to Laura or anyone else. I thought my questions were valid
and I wasn't trying to stick up for anyone, it was just an observation
from someone new to the forum. I wasn't telling anyone what to say
either, and you're putting words in my mouth. I was saying that it doesn't
make one feel like Laura or anyone else on this forum is approachable with questions
from people who aren't already "on the same page." I've read a little bit
of the wave series man, isn't the whole thing about evolving (please, please
forgive the oversimplification) to a higher state of conciousness? Doesn't
that mean that the more than can achieve that the better? And surely that
means tolerating some tiring, perhaps redundant questions to help people?

And if I'm misinterpreting that, please let me know. I wasn't trying to incite
an argument about Icke, I was asking what seems to be a group of smart,
independent thinkers why some of my strong beliefs may need to be re-examined.

It seems it would be better if I was involved from the sidelines, and just went
back to reading the headlines and browsing the forums. This forum doesn't
seem to like newcomers very much.

Also, The fact alone that I'm here maybe isn't enough for you that I'm geniunely
curious about the message of this site, but the fact I'm reading a book (and
enjoying it) authored by Mrs. Knight-Jadzyk is a good start I'd say.


Thanks to all of you on the site who take the time to do what you do. My comments
may have made me appear ungrateful which I assure you is not the case.

And to Laura directly, I apologize if I've offended you, it was not my intention.