All the woman should have kids ?
- Thread starter jaela
- Start date
a few things that seem to put a lot of pressure on people in our society are:
-you have to have children at a certain age
-you have to have a relationship at certrain age
-you have to have sex at a certain age
-you have to go to discos at a certain age
-you have to leave your parents in a certain age to start your own live
-you have to.......
otherwise you are strange or different from the norm and then the pressure begins.
the question is: do we really "have to do" things the way our enviorment tells us we have to ?
-you have to have children at a certain age
-you have to have a relationship at certrain age
-you have to have sex at a certain age
-you have to go to discos at a certain age
-you have to leave your parents in a certain age to start your own live
-you have to.......
otherwise you are strange or different from the norm and then the pressure begins.
the question is: do we really "have to do" things the way our enviorment tells us we have to ?
Risen
Jedi Council Member
Your love and devotion to your child is touching. It would be a better world if all parents felt that way but I have to disagree with your statement about it being STO to love your "own flesh and blood" more than others.Mrs.Tigersoap said:
Wouldn't most 2D creatures die for their own flesh and blood excluding some Psychopaths.
I'm sorry Mrs. Tigersoap, I'm not trying to single you out. This thread just somehow struck a nerve in me that is maybe about to snap. I accept and appreciate your bond with your child and believe you when you say that there is no stronger bond than that for you. In general, however, I think it is highly likely that there are much stronger bonds than anything we experience in the material state and that sometimes these bonds manifest in 3D for some people.
When I was 12 years old my mother came into my room and asked me how many children I was going to have. Of course this was an idiotic, Narcissistic question to ask a 12 year old. I mean how could a 12 year old person know what they want to do in the future. It is as meaningless as asking a 5 year old what they want to be when they grow up. My answer at that tender age made my mother furious! I said back then, over 50 years ago, I don't want to bring a child into this violent world. If I want to care for children I will adopt some orphans, there are plenty of them who need loving homes.
Do I have Children? Yes, because in living my life as man#2 for most of my life, THINGS HAPPENED.
Correct me anyone if I'm wrong or give me another perspective please as I am confused a little. Can we do or not?
I like your response Brunwald,
It may not be STO to love your children more than anything else, but surely the very act of putting others before oneself even if it for your own flesh and blood is STO.
Surely it's not merely a question of chemicals and hormones. Is it?? :/
From my own experience, I had to push myself hard sometimes to do the right thing for my family. It didn't all come naturally. For example I used to hate cooking and cleaning. Of course, a family needs a good meal and I think it important to have a pleasant home to come home to, so I worked on that problem.
My husband has learned to work on becoming more patient and both of us had to work on becoming more organised and disciplined and structured.
Of course, some do not have to work on these things as much, but they didn't come naturally to me at all. I'm still learning.
However, I guess the love for my kids that was the impetus needed to push me to work harder did come naturally.
Surely it's not merely a question of chemicals and hormones. Is it?? :/
From my own experience, I had to push myself hard sometimes to do the right thing for my family. It didn't all come naturally. For example I used to hate cooking and cleaning. Of course, a family needs a good meal and I think it important to have a pleasant home to come home to, so I worked on that problem.
My husband has learned to work on becoming more patient and both of us had to work on becoming more organised and disciplined and structured.
Of course, some do not have to work on these things as much, but they didn't come naturally to me at all. I'm still learning.
However, I guess the love for my kids that was the impetus needed to push me to work harder did come naturally.
Risen
Jedi Council Member
cassandra said:
It seems like there is more to it than that as some parents, animal or human; are better caregivers than others. There is also circumstances to consider like the health of the caregiver, etc.
So, you both "worked" at being more STO, great! No doubt families can be a wonderful place to learn to give and put someone else first and I didn't mean there was anything wrong with loving your own children more than anyone. I only meant that loving what is a part of what you identify as a piece of yourself is not necessarily STO.
And by naturally do you mean chemically as in hormones produced by pregnancy and childbirth?
It must be extremely difficult for mothers to be good mothers if they are lacking in some hormones? I think it is a mixture of many variables like how we were raised, culture, etc. Even the things we think of as loving change as we move to different cultures. I'm not saying any one here is not really loving in an STO way. I am just speaking generally.
I feel I have been rude by ignoring the original question.
Should all the woman have kids? I think regardless of the current circumstances, it is personal choice. It could be that some souls want to be born now for a good reason. OSISI
Mrs.Tigersoap
The Living Force
My exact statement was 'the closest to STO I can get at my very limited and sleepy level'. At no point did I say (or think) that it was STO, but only made me take a step towards STO by feeling this way about a person. I'm very much a 3D being, everything I do is STS oriented and I do not kid myself about that.
Opossum said:
Exactly. 2D creatures would probably die for their own flesh, as I would do. I never claimed to be the only person let alone only species to have this feeling.
Opossum said:
Probably. The level I'm at unfortunately does not allow me to experience those at the moment. So for me, the strongest bond is with my child. I have a very strong bond with my husband but of a different nature. Same goes for my mother, and my friends, and this forum. All are strong but they differ from the one I have for my child. Now this is my experience, mind you. I know others who don't feel that way. My father is a prime example.
Opossum said:
I'm afraid I'm not understanding what you are referring to here. Maybe if you could explain or give me an example?
Opossum said:
I agree. I was pregnant before my encoutering with SOTT. I saw the world around me and saw disconnects, violence, poverty and thought 'this is workable, we're all people of good will. The world can be a better place.' I had no idea what a sociopath, a 4D STS or ponerology were. I was very naive (and I still am for a lot of things). Then I learned about all this and the sense of guilt for having brought another soul in this world has not left me since. I do not want another child. I do not regret having my daughter because I love her so much but the guilt is there.
My post was not an encouragement to have children because it will make women STO and I'm sorry if I was not clear about that. I have talked about my guilt and my refusal to bring another child into this world in other posts but it is clearly self-important on my part to assume that you all know where I stand. In an very unplanned and ironic way, it so happens that having my child has helped me towards becoming a tiny bit less selfish, even if the act of having a child in many cases can be selfish.
I do not know your situation. From the beginning of your post, I understand that you do not share my feeling of the strong bond between a parent and their child. That's true, some people do not develop this with their child for multiple reasons. Not wanting a child and having one anyway may be one of the reasons. I guess (but I may be wrong) that this is what you meant by 'things happened'. I'm sorry it turned out that way for you.
Opossum said:
I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean, Can we do what? Are you referring to the concept of DOing?
Aneke
The Force is Strong With This One
Well, I had just finished reading through this thread and suddenly this song came on my music player. I feel it describes the issue quite well. Especially the part that says:
"Oh my son, what have I done?
Brought perfection to this world of confusion heedlessly...
Now you're the one feeding me,
Because I never knew love like this, endlessly reaching back through eternity"
Made me tear up a little, even.
"Oh my son, what have I done?
Brought perfection to this world of confusion heedlessly...
Now you're the one feeding me,
Because I never knew love like this, endlessly reaching back through eternity"
Made me tear up a little, even.
Risen
Jedi Council Member
Hello Mrs Tigersoap, I just want to apologize for my former post. I re read it and to tell the truth, it is obviously not even directed at the topic and I can see doesn't exactly fit the topic. I have been ill for several days and it was just something you wrote that triggered something very deep. I even remember typing and trying to stop myself and somehow knowing in the back of my mind that I was running a very strong program.
I will say that you handled it diplomatically and seemed to know and be considerate about what could be happening.
To answer your questions:
I do have very strong bonds with my grown children and I didn't say I didn't want children, only that I didn't feel the need for them to be my "own" children. When I said ,"things Happened", I was talking in the work sense. I acknowledge the fact that although I thought I was Doing all my life, really everything was just happening to me. And yes, I did mean "can we do?", in the work sense. I see I have a "thing" about using "work language".
I think a person may be able to form soul bonds and be together in many incarnations and this bond could be stronger than that of a parent and child. Also many twins especially identical seem to have a closer bond than with their mother. But what I was referring to is polar opposites who do sometimes manage to meet in 3D.
And again, I apologize for going off on an off-topic rant that did not even fit the situation you were describing and thank you for being considerate and understanding about it.
I will say that you handled it diplomatically and seemed to know and be considerate about what could be happening.
To answer your questions:
I do have very strong bonds with my grown children and I didn't say I didn't want children, only that I didn't feel the need for them to be my "own" children. When I said ,"things Happened", I was talking in the work sense. I acknowledge the fact that although I thought I was Doing all my life, really everything was just happening to me. And yes, I did mean "can we do?", in the work sense. I see I have a "thing" about using "work language".
I think a person may be able to form soul bonds and be together in many incarnations and this bond could be stronger than that of a parent and child. Also many twins especially identical seem to have a closer bond than with their mother. But what I was referring to is polar opposites who do sometimes manage to meet in 3D.
And again, I apologize for going off on an off-topic rant that did not even fit the situation you were describing and thank you for being considerate and understanding about it.
ana
The Living Force
cassandra said:
I think parent-child relations are specially strong due to instinctive functions, parents are naturally tied to protect and care for their little ones and then there is the emotional aspect that also becomes stronger due to the time and common experiences of living together, that is, talking of healthy relations.
The trap here, osit, is to believe that our parents or our children are more important in the scheme of things than others. It is the knowledge of the soul that discerns between necessary aspects of parent-child relations and ego-centric view of the human world, besides the souled and soulless issue, osit.
agni
Dagobah Resident
Ana said:
I also think that for the most part it is mechanical/instinctive. Many parents claim they would love their kids no matter what happens. I ask in return what if your kid turns out to be a psychopath or ends up being Hitler ? Most answer that they still would love their children no matter what. What kind of Love this is ? Seems more like super strong mechanical obsession. And of course, there is always infamous phrase that follows: "you do not have kids, so you do not know how it is." :)
It's funny to see how some parents "switch" when such subjects are brought up, it is even noticeable by naked eye, as if something gets flipped inside. It's like some alternate personality steps in at the moment (instincts?) that people have little control of. Then conversation is pretty much over, cause I do not talk to zombies :)
Here is a question to all: What is out there in your own kids that you love so much, that any other person on the planet does not have (besides your genes aka flesh and blood) ? What does prevent you from building such bonds with any other person on the planet ? :)
Al Today
The Living Force
agni said:
Time...
I've been with them since birth and we have been involved with each others lives over a period of years.
Relationships such as these take time to build.
I know this is a simplistic answer. This "time" is a very important factor in how I "feel" towards another. The longer time flies, the deeper an emotional bond grows, osit.
And yes, I did say emotional bond.
;) ;) ;)
efeuvete
Padawan Learner
agni said:
IMO the obvious (You receive them here on earth) task (really serious and wonderful) of helping your kids to be all they can be; And yes, I can imagine this "opportunity" with any other person but I have had not one of these (It is not so "Easy" as it is with your own kids)
Regarding psychopats, I know children of a psychopath mother and fathers of a psychopath son (Near enough to evaluate psychopaty let's say, sure over 80%). Well, I can tell you IMO both situations are of the most horrible ones a human being must endure; 6 out of 8 siblings in those two cases does not accept that amount of evil in their (mother/son) so, yes, those 6 are switched to "zombie mode"; and I obviously don't agree with them but... I understand.
PS/ I'm male
SolarMother
Dagobah Resident
Agni
Another good thread here. Glad you brought this up Agni. A little story here about my painful experiences as a parent with a grown child that leads to an answer to your thought-provoking question:
I can now see after many years and having these painful experiences with mostly, one of my grown children, that a lot of my connection with them was based on mechanical/instinctive programs. Especially my daughter, who is not speaking to me these days! I have a son too.
Its a whole different ball of wax when the children grow up compared to when they are small!
It seems to be a given that many parents have a lot of guilt programs which I have had in spades, and I have noticed that there is often a point in time where the child naturally separates from the parent (in astrology speak its the Saturn Return at age 29-30ish) gaining more independence and a stronger sense of 'self.'
My daughter and I had a strong 'bond' and no natural separation beyond this point however. But looking back I can see a lot of this bond was based on dependency on her part , and guilt and control on mine...in short, our programs running! My guilt program was that I must support her and 'love' her no matter what or who she is. I emotionally parented my mother, btw.
She is now 38, and is choosing a life of celebrity and fame, very strong STS narcissistic, power-seeking behavior, and since she came into this new life recently (a little over a year ago) she did not want me around (as a possible reminder of other values in life, and how the sweetness and heart has gone out of her.) She is very much like my narcissistic mother.
I had been supportive of her in her quest for what she wants, and she has always desired fame, and hence ended up choosing a superficial life...so much so that it became obvious that there was a huge growing chasm between us. Something had to go, and it was me! She could see that I was not able to fake it anymore about supporting her decadent lifestyle, especially as it was increasingly sabotaging her marriage and her motherhood.
It took me several months, but I have become objective about it for the most part. I stay out of her life as she wishes me to, for the most part the guilt is gone, the agonizing as well (except that I really miss my 5 year old grand daugher whom my daughter does not want me to see.)
Sometimes I feel some sadness knowing that she has chosen this path and that I will probably never see her or her family again because she lives in Europe and because the chasm is so wide. I don't plan any more visits there. I am amazed at the amount of objectivity that I have gained on this issue--I didn't know I had it in me.
I used to take on emotionally, everything that she was going through and she would just go on her merry way after dumping something on me, and I would be almost paralyzed with pain--her pain! I think this is common with mothers, btw.
I had to learn to not take things on, and learn to see it as a TRAP. I can also say that now I see the whole parent/child instinctive bond thing as a TRAP.
My son, however is reading Sott.net and lives in the same state. We have great talks. He is cut from a different cloth and we have been able to work through some of our programs! He is 36.
In answer to your question, Agni--nothing prevents me from building bonds with souls other than my children--other souls that resonate with my soul. That is far more important than clinging to an attachment to a reactive/programmed relationship with my child, who is firmly on her own path, and that caused me a lot of pain and anguish in trying to adapt to her and her to me. It seems parents have to go through some kind of trauma and shock with a child to come to this realization.
Another good thread here. Glad you brought this up Agni. A little story here about my painful experiences as a parent with a grown child that leads to an answer to your thought-provoking question:
I can now see after many years and having these painful experiences with mostly, one of my grown children, that a lot of my connection with them was based on mechanical/instinctive programs. Especially my daughter, who is not speaking to me these days! I have a son too.
Its a whole different ball of wax when the children grow up compared to when they are small!
It seems to be a given that many parents have a lot of guilt programs which I have had in spades, and I have noticed that there is often a point in time where the child naturally separates from the parent (in astrology speak its the Saturn Return at age 29-30ish) gaining more independence and a stronger sense of 'self.'
My daughter and I had a strong 'bond' and no natural separation beyond this point however. But looking back I can see a lot of this bond was based on dependency on her part , and guilt and control on mine...in short, our programs running! My guilt program was that I must support her and 'love' her no matter what or who she is. I emotionally parented my mother, btw.
She is now 38, and is choosing a life of celebrity and fame, very strong STS narcissistic, power-seeking behavior, and since she came into this new life recently (a little over a year ago) she did not want me around (as a possible reminder of other values in life, and how the sweetness and heart has gone out of her.) She is very much like my narcissistic mother.
I had been supportive of her in her quest for what she wants, and she has always desired fame, and hence ended up choosing a superficial life...so much so that it became obvious that there was a huge growing chasm between us. Something had to go, and it was me! She could see that I was not able to fake it anymore about supporting her decadent lifestyle, especially as it was increasingly sabotaging her marriage and her motherhood.
It took me several months, but I have become objective about it for the most part. I stay out of her life as she wishes me to, for the most part the guilt is gone, the agonizing as well (except that I really miss my 5 year old grand daugher whom my daughter does not want me to see.)
Sometimes I feel some sadness knowing that she has chosen this path and that I will probably never see her or her family again because she lives in Europe and because the chasm is so wide. I don't plan any more visits there. I am amazed at the amount of objectivity that I have gained on this issue--I didn't know I had it in me.
I used to take on emotionally, everything that she was going through and she would just go on her merry way after dumping something on me, and I would be almost paralyzed with pain--her pain! I think this is common with mothers, btw.
I had to learn to not take things on, and learn to see it as a TRAP. I can also say that now I see the whole parent/child instinctive bond thing as a TRAP.My son, however is reading Sott.net and lives in the same state. We have great talks. He is cut from a different cloth and we have been able to work through some of our programs! He is 36.
In answer to your question, Agni--nothing prevents me from building bonds with souls other than my children--other souls that resonate with my soul. That is far more important than clinging to an attachment to a reactive/programmed relationship with my child, who is firmly on her own path, and that caused me a lot of pain and anguish in trying to adapt to her and her to me. It seems parents have to go through some kind of trauma and shock with a child to come to this realization.
Mrs.Tigersoap
The Living Force
Opossum said:
Don't mention it, it's totally OK. I've been known to do that several times myself :)
Agni said:
Here are some my reasons (I cannot judge for others):
The fact that I have carried her in my womb, felt her grow inside me, that I feared losing her. The fact that I was there from the first second of her life and have since watched her grow, learn. I have witnessed her first smile, her first teeth, I have held her when she was sick, shared her joy when she took her first step, heard her first words (the list goes on and on so I'll stop here). As Al Today was saying, we share each other's lives and have had the opportunity to share a lot and build that emotional bond. I know (practically) everything about that being. It turns out that way for some parents and, apparently, for others, it is different.
The fact that I am responsible for her and her actions because I brought her into this world (even if, as Windmill Knight was telling me here: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,16905.msg258947.html#msg258947, she was willing to incarnate as well). I feel responsible to help and protect a lot of people but I don't feel responsible for their actions.
Agni said:
In theory, nothing. In reality, it is my experience that my strongest bond is with my daughter for the reason mentioned above. That does not prevent me from loving a whole bunch of other people very very much. And, hopefully, that does not make me a horribly narcissistic mother who is in love with her creation because she sees herself in her creation. Nothing is this black or white, as Truth Seeker was saying. Maybe the bond with my child will lessen as she grows older, maybe the bond with others will deepen, but at the moment (again, at my limited and sleepy level), that's how it is for me.
May I ask with whom do you have such deep bonds, Agni? :)
Agni said:
Indeed. If my child turned out to be a psychopath, I would be devastated and would turn to this forum for advice about what to do and how to best handle it. I think it serves no purpose to ask the man on the street what he would do if his son turned out to be Hitler. Most people have no idea what psychopaths really are. At best, they equate them with Hannibal Lecter. So of course, you're going to get that kind of answer. No surprise there IMO...
