Are you voting & why?

[Beau]

Webglider,

When I stated,
"It's a good idea to read an entire thread before jumping to conclusions about the subject matter or discussions that are already in progress."

I feel this statement is obvious in it's logic and is a relevant response to your comment,

The statement is obvious, but the point Webglider was attempting to make was that your statement came off as aggressive and accusatory, regardless of the logic it entailed. What webglider suggests is that maybe you could have phrased your question in a more externally considerate way. Not to conform to his/her choice of words, but to communicate in a less aggressive way. The fact that you miss this point and react emotionally to this suggestion, on top of the previous aggressiveness quoted above, says to me that you have possibly lost some objectivity in this discussion. Regardless of intention and despite the fact you are a different person, their are more externally considerate ways you could have gone about replying. No one's saying you can't be yourself and have your own ways of communicating, but when you are offered feedback about those ways you should be able to take them to heart instead of seeing them as an attack on your sovereignty.

 

[Cyre2067]

Couple of points:

Voting, the process, is a learning experience - thus the fun. The people in line, the looks on their faces, the murmurs, the smells and the emotions surrounding the event are quite potent. Just being there and taking it all in while observing yourself is an invaluable experience imho, and I wouldn't skip that for fear of 'sustaining the illusion'.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t that like someone saying I’m going to just play World of Warcraft (WOW) just so I can observe myself and other people in it. Yet you know it’s a fake world and a fake system, and that your energy is going to nothing, but you just want to observe it. Aren’t you kidding yourself?

I don't see it that way. The way I see it, WOW is a dissociative, being in a line with other people allows one quiet time inside one's head. I found it interesting to self-observe throughout the experience - and what I learned is that voting feels good. There's also the quiet murmur between family members and friends, husbands and wives, parents and children. It's a very indoctrinated process. They even had 'kids vote' polls where the kids get to vote. It was cute and sad at the same time. It was interesting to note the comparison between the kids' vote falsity and the real vote falsity.

Given all they do to dissuade voters, they don't want you to vote. So I will and I'll take more from the experience then the average bear, looking at all the gems along the path, so to speak.

Who are "they" and who doesn't want you to vote? Seems to me everyone, from Celebrities, to Rock Stars, to Politicians (left and right) push everyone to vote, vote and vote! It's all about VOTING. That's the problem. People are so locked into the idea that they must vote and so loose ability to critical think and analyze before "doing" so. It's like "vote, no matter what!".
Seems more like the opposite. If you tell someone you are not voting, you are looked at like a traitor or unpatriotic.
So where do you pick up that "they" dissuade voters? I don't see it.

Well voters were purged, some turned away, others told they were 'at the wrong station' and denied provisional ballots. My sister got turned away and no one even mentioned provisional ballots. Many votes go uncounted, lost, destroyed or otherwise, the precedent is there. Some voters show up at polls that are guarded but uniformed/armed officers, and this happens more often in the city under the guise of 'protection'. It happens.

I don't disagree that there is a strong sense of 'go vote' coming from celebrities, the media, etc. I don't watch TV or read major media so I picked up on the efforts used by the reps to dissuade voters.

I'm voting, mostly because it's fun. [...] can't hurt right? [...] I don't see any concrete reason it would hurt to vote. I'm not lieing to myself about it, and I may actually extract data from the experience that can help others understand election fraud. So why not?

Sounds almost like you're grasping at straws to rationalize it for yourself. Personally I'm not voting. I see it as supporting the system more than I must do for strategic enclosure reasons. Yes I support it, but only where I have to. I agree with Bernhard's thoughts on this, I feel that by showing up at the polls I'm "legitimizing" the process for others, creating a sort of "social proof" for them just by appearing and adding to the numbers of people at the polls. But if I voted, I might just vote for McCain. He might be more efficient than Obama to bring war, suffering, and chaos, and exposing the whole system as the fraud that it is. It is inevitable, it's just a matter of time, so why stall and pacify people into sleep? If people feel the burn, they have impetus to wake up.

Well, when you take that bit out of context of course it looks like I'm grasping at straws. The process is legitimized whether or not an individual shows at the polls, your absence will not convince another that the whole thing is rigged. Beyond that my points about voting in local elections were completely ignored by both you and Bernard - so you think voting in local elections, on referendums, etc is completely worthless as well?

And again, what about the voting machines? The one I used worked, and I had no trouble voting - but if I had that experience might have been useful. Taking the chance to learn about the machines and exposing a flaw seemed like a good opportunity - do you disagree?

Voting for McCain? That's blows my mind. I mean, that's an 'ends justifies the means' argument you used right there.

Personally I couldn't have not voted in the presidential bit. Rigged or not, vetted or not, false hope or not, I couldn't have stood by and not done all I could to prevent McCain/Palin from winning. Did it help? Who knows. Maybe the process was rigged in favor of Obama, when you look at the media coverage you could easily argue that point. Overall the driving force in my voting was to learn about the process, see the new machines, voting in local elections and do my part in shooting down McCain, in that order.

I've observed the fact that I 'like' Obama. While I know all the negatives, all the excellently put bits that went into 'The Opium of the Masses', I find myself still 'liking' him and I want to learn more about that. I know I'll be 'happy' if he 'wins' and if McCain win's, well, let's just say it'll be an interesting emotional experience to observe.

Well, that might be a good exercise of observation. What "I" in you likes Obama? Does maybe Wishful Thinking plays a role in it? What do you "like" about him? His hypnotic slogans? His eloquent speech? That he's "black"? But behind all these masks of appearances and promises, what is he really saying? Where is he standing on the more important issues this world faces, namely the lies that are support by all the major candidates? If you observe closely and more objectively you might see that he, McCain and Bush are not different on many of the core issues.

Ah well I don't name them, but it probably is the one/group that hates/fears a McCain/Palin win. Sure - they're might be some wishful thinking, a little I that thinks he'll be different, he'll pull a JFK. I like the fact that he's black and talks about change, but more then that, I like the fact that he isn't McCain and his Veep isn't Sarah-'let's stone the homo's'-Palin. I know that he's all talk, and that he won't veer from the PTBs plans, but I know Palin is bat-shit crazy and might end up killing more people faster, in more horrible ways then Obama. Disagree?

 

[Myth of Myself]

Wow.

 

[Adaryn]

Wow.

Could you explain what you mean by "wow"? It's not very clear as to what/whom it's supposed to be aimed at.

 

[Myth of Myself]

It was a proclamation of amazement.

 

[Adaryn]

It was a proclamation of amazement.

I'm curious to know if you've read the remarks that were pointed out to you here and here?

Especially the ones about external consideration...

Do you see that your last two answers can come across as dismissive and mocking, and not externally considerate at all?

Why pretending you didn't understand what was the point of my question?

 

[PepperFritz]

Could you explain what you mean by "wow"? It's not very clear as to what/whom it's supposed to be aimed at.

It was a proclamation of amazement.

Myth:

Prayers-for-rain asked you to clarify what/whom your "proclamation of amazement" was directed at. Why did you not answer her straight-forward and reasonable request?

You seem to be going out of your way to be rude and inconsiderate towards other forum members. What do you hope to achieve by that? Have you read the Forum Rules?

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

The process is legitimized whether or not an individual shows at the polls, your absence will not convince another that the whole thing is rigged.

Well not me by myself, but if more people abstained for the same reason maybe then. If a lot of people think that "well I alone won't make a difference so I might as well vote" it could matter then. I guess I see it equivalent to thinking that if one person cannot make a difference by seeking/spreading the truth, then why bother? Then nobody ends up doing it and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Beyond that my points about voting in local elections were completely ignored by both you and Bernard - so you think voting in local elections, on referendums, etc is completely worthless as well?

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore that point, I just had no input as I don't really follow my local elections so I don't know how artificial and illusory that process is. Is it just a miniature version of the national elections or is there substance to it and people actually know the person they are voting for and what they will really do, and it will actually make a difference in some way? I don't know.

And again, what about the voting machines? The one I used worked, and I had no trouble voting - but if I had that experience might have been useful. Taking the chance to learn about the machines and exposing a flaw seemed like a good opportunity - do you disagree?

Well that is interesting. Did you ask for a print-out of your vote or any confirmation by any chance? I remember reading that someone tried that after voting machines were flipping but they were denied the request.

Voting for McCain? That's blows my mind. I mean, that's an 'ends justifies the means' argument you used right there.

Well I wouldn't really vote for McCain or purposely do anything that contributes to global suffering, even if I realize that the suffering will most likely lead to more/faster awakening. I don't have the heart to actually do something like that, I think I was just trying to make the point that sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to hurry up the inevitable. But I would be just as hesitant to do anything that prolongs the comfortable sleep either. So I'd prefer to not interfere and contribute to either direction because I don't have the "higher" perspective to be able to know what is more beneficial for humanity at this time. For all I know, maybe prolonging the inevitable allows for more opportunity for people to wake up with less suffering, and this can somehow mitigate the "endgame" suffering to come. So instead of contributing to prolonging the illusion or hurrying up the apocalypse I'd really prefer to do neither and let the chips fall where they may, and just help those who ask along the way with the truth.

Personally I couldn't have not voted in the presidential bit. Rigged or not, vetted or not, false hope or not, I couldn't have stood by and not done all I could to prevent McCain/Palin from winning.

Well I can't really argue with you there lol, I really am relieved for whatever reason to not see McCain and Palin anywhere near the White House. If for no other reason than they both make me sick to my stomach and I swear I'll die a happy man if I never hear the word maverick again. Or see either of them again.

Did it help? Who knows. Maybe the process was rigged in favor of Obama, when you look at the media coverage you could easily argue that point. Overall the driving force in my voting was to learn about the process, see the new machines, voting in local elections and do my part in shooting down McCain, in that order.

I don't know, but you did ask "why not" so I just shared my perspective in that regard. And maybe I did misread, but just the fact that you kept reaffirming or asking that it can't hurt anything a number of times in a short paragraph kinda made me think that maybe you're trying to convince yourself and rationalize it, and looking for some sort of affirmation from others. Sorry if I am way off on this one.

 

[Bernhard]

Wow.

Hi Myth, maybe if you could explain what you mean by "Wow", it would help better to understand why you are amazed and for what reason.
As we can see here, everyone seems to have a different take on the voting issue. Some of them may agree with your view, others not.
However, we're all here to learn from each other, so by making yourself more clear in a more objective way, your insights and views can benefit others as well.

Some of your comments do come across a bit dismissive and "confrontational", even though you may not see it yourself. In light of "The Work" that is the basis of this forum, the goal of this board is also to strive for objectivity without getting sidetracked by the subjectivity of our personality and its mechanical reactions. For example, how does posting "Wow" really help to come to a clearer understanding of the topic of this thread and benefit the people reading and posting here? It is not being externally considerate. Also, just letting you know, no one is attacking you here, but simply pointing out some things that you may want to look at.

We all are pointing out blind spots to each other when we can see it, so this is nothing against "you". I have learned a lot by the mirror that has been put up by members of this forum over the years. The point is to not let "personality" (subjectivity) to get into the way of seeking truth (objectivity). Everyone is at different stages of learning and by being externally considerate we can assist each other in the learning process.

The more familiar you get with "The Work" and 4th Way teachings, the more you'll understand the dynamic on this board. A basic understanding for "externally considerate" can be found in the Esoteric Glossary here: http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=40&lsel=E

Learning is fun!

Myth:

Prayers-for-rain asked you to clarify what/whom your "proclamation of amazement" was directed at. Why did you not answer her straight-forward and reasonable request?

You seem to be going out of your way to be rude and inconsiderate towards other forum members. What do you hope to achieve by that? Have you read the Forum Rules?

I'll have to agree with PepperFritz. It would really help if you could be more clear. Some of your early posts about communal living have been great and were insightful, so it would be nice to have you around for more. Maybe reviewing the forum rules may help and gives you also a better understanding of the esoteric work applied in this forum: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=9553.0

The basic Vision for this forum:
"To create an environment for the stimulation, development and then the alignment of objective consciousnesses."

 

[Myth of Myself]

I took for granted that the foundation of this forum is built upon the channeled material, wherein the obviousness of the level of manipulation of humanity is that voting is pointless, a viewpoint that I arrived at before having read the material.I was surprised to find than many still feel compelled to participate in presidential elections and even defend their meaning. But I now acknowledge that this is a public forum and the opinions are varied.

Bernhard,
When you refer to "the work" over and over, it reminds me a bit of when I was a child growing up in the South where people made similar statements to the "good book" over and over as if to say it's truth is an established fact.

I do not believe that the channeled "material" is true without question just as I don't believe the Upanishads, Rumi, The Gospel of Thomas, The Tao Te Ching etc, etc are complete truths. I do enjoy and learn from reading them but I choose to always leave the garden gate open so to say when it comes to adhering to an external source as a source of absolute truth. No offense, I respect you as a friend, as a person and a healer.

My "Wow" statement was one of amazement and also of wonder at no matter how obvious the game of manipulation is that is being played, there will always be support of that agenda regardless of how obvious its corruption may be.

I am not used to being accused of being aggressive and confrontational with a statement like:
"It's a good idea to read an entire thread before jumping to conclusions about the subject matter or discussions that are already in progress."

But I will admit it is a matter of personal perception and sensitivity upon the definition of "aggressive" and as to the misunderstanding and conflict I may have brought into the thread I apologize. And in saying this, I acknowledge that how much of ones identity, sense of self, or "how personal" one takes interactions here interacting via the internet varies from individual to individual.

It seems we all need different types of environments and levels of openness to grow in. The internet is a great way to communicate and network, but it lacks the communicative level of conversing with a person face to face and a posting can be interpreted in many different ways when read because words on a computer screen lack, inflection, facial expression, volume and tone. All of which allows for a more precise way of communication. One is more likely to be misunderstood conversing here than in person.

I am used to having my logic picked apart and visa versa in conversations wherein being offended by someone could only be achieved by a blatant attack. Example "You suck", "Your a dumb ass.", etc. etc. And I feel as long as there is an explanation, "I don't agree with your views and here is why." then there is progress and an opportunity for learning.

I take assaults on my logic and reasoning as an opportunity for growth instead of something to get offended by as long as the lines of communication are open. I enjoy debating the meaning behind simple exchanges, conversation or the meaning of our words.

The reason for my delayed response to the Wow statement was in part due to my making potato soup and cornbread this morning.

Don't worry it won't happen again.


Cheers to all,
Best Wishes to All,
Enjoy Your Long and Strange Journey,
Happy 5th of November

- Goodbye

 

[anart]

     I took for granted that the foundation of this forum is built upon the channeled material, wherein the obviousness of the level of manipulation of humanity is that voting is pointless, a viewpoint that I arrived at before having read the material.I was surprised to find than many still feel compelled to participate in presidential elections and even defend their meaning. But I now acknowledge that this is a public forum and the opinions are varied.

Just to offer you more input on how what you write comes across - the above paragraph is 'inner considering' - others are not 'living up' to your requirements, thus you have reacted in a way that evidences your 'disdain'.  This is not unusual, but it is mechanical, and thus can be changed - if one so desires - with Work.


 

 Bernhard,
   When you refer to "the work" over and over, it reminds me a bit of when I was a child growing up in the South where people made similar statements to the "good book" over and over as if to say it's truth is an established fact.

    I do not believe that the channeled "material" is true without question just as I don't believe the Upanishads, Rumi, The Gospel of Thomas, The Tao Te Ching etc, etc are complete truths.

And here it is very clear that you have no idea what Bernhard is referring to when he says 'Work' - it is not the channeled material.  It is the Fourth Way - the Work as defined and developed by GI Gurdjieff.   Are you at all familiar with Gurdjieff - it is actually his Work upon which this forum is based.

Also, just to give you an opportunity to 'see' yourself, what you've written to Bernhard is condescending   - on the other hand, what Bernhard wrote to you was done so in the spirit of helping you, without the judgment you exhibit in your words to him.  Interesting, that.

I do enjoy and learn from reading them but I choose to always leave the garden gate open so to say when it comes to adhering to an external source as a source of absolute truth. No offense, I respect you as a friend, as a person and a healer.

Who do you respect as a friend, person and healer?  Why would you?  Apologies, this is just a rather confusing statement on your part, as is the 'absolute truth' aspect. If you have spent time reading the content of this forum, then you likely picked up on the fact that the sincere members of this forum don't really 'do' the 'absolute truth thing' - so rather odd that you would write that when there is so much freely available evidence to the contrary.


It appears, mythofmyself, that you are simply suffering from some rather deep misunderstandings about this forum and its purpose.  That is fine, since it is easily remedied with a lot of reading and some Work.  That is, if you are so inclined.

 

[webglider]

I am not used to being described a aggressive and confrontational with a statement like: "It's a good idea to read an entire thread before jumping to conclusions about the subject matter or discussions that are already in progress."

It's not the statement, it's the tone. The tone of "It is a good idea ...." seems to indicate that the person who has not done what you are suggesting is somehow "wrong".

The protocol is that the information that is being responded to is presented as a quote first so that the reader does not have to go back to look through the entire thread to find the information that has provoked the response. When this is done, it is absolutely clear to whom the response is being addressed. Some of these threads go on for many, many pages, and I know that I often begin reading at the point where I left off.

So it seems to me that the misunderstanding arises from not following an unstated protocol. Following the protocol just might resolve the matter entirely.

 

[PepperFritz]

Cheers to all,
Best Wishes to All,
Enjoy Your Long and Strange Journey,
Happy 5th of November

- Goodbye

Myth:

Could you please explain the meaning/purpose behind your posting "Goodbye" at the end of your post? I thought it might mean that you were leaving the Forum, but I see that you are still posting in other threads.

Some very important points have been raised by Anart with regard to your misunderstanding the purpose of this Forum and members' references to "the Work". If you intend to continue to participate on the Forum, don't you think it would be good idea to respond to these points and attempt to correct your misunderstandings? If you petulantly pre-empt every discussion that points out errors on your part with a "Goodbye", you're simply pre-empting opportunities to learn -- about yourself as well as the purpose and principles that this Forum is based on.

 

[Cyre2067]

The process is legitimized whether or not an individual shows at the polls, your absence will not convince another that the whole thing is rigged.

Well not me by myself, but if more people abstained for the same reason maybe then. If a lot of people think that "well I alone won't make a difference so I might as well vote" it could matter then. I guess I see it equivalent to thinking that if one person cannot make a difference by seeking/spreading the truth, then why bother? Then nobody ends up doing it and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Interesting, I understand your perspective much better now. I don't quite see it the same way, I think that one person spreading the truth is just another piling straws on the proverbial camels back. Whereas not showing up to vote really doesn't 'say' anything, I mean, people don't know you're not showing up because you think the process is bunk, for all they know you're just disinterested.

Beyond that my points about voting in local elections were completely ignored by both you and Bernard - so you think voting in local elections, on referendums, etc is completely worthless as well?

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore that point, I just had no input as I don't really follow my local elections so I don't know how artificial and illusory that process is. Is it just a miniature version of the national elections or is there substance to it and people actually know the person they are voting for and what they will really do, and it will actually make a difference in some way? I don't know.

I think there are little things we can change. I got to vote for third party candidates for some local positions, though interestingly enough none of them won. I also voted against a proposition to allow $400million dollars to be loaned to local municipalities for 'sewer improvements' - which unfortunately passed. There was also a vote to subsidize the ambulances, get them more trucks and equipment - which seemed like a good thing to me. I guess the point is 'sure, they let us have a small say in some things, but not a real vote on real serious issues.' I thought it was worth it, though thinking its not is equally valid, imho.

And again, what about the voting machines? The one I used worked, and I had no trouble voting - but if I had that experience might have been useful. Taking the chance to learn about the machines and exposing a flaw seemed like a good opportunity - do you disagree?

Well that is interesting. Did you ask for a print-out of your vote or any confirmation by any chance? I remember reading that someone tried that after voting machines were flipping but they were denied the request.

I did ask for a receipt, though curiously they weren't available. The machines aren't manufactured in order to produce a copy or record that you can take home with you. Shady, no?

Voting for McCain? That's blows my mind. I mean, that's an 'ends justifies the means' argument you used right there.

Well I wouldn't really vote for McCain or purposely do anything that contributes to global suffering, even if I realize that the suffering will most likely lead to more/faster awakening. I don't have the heart to actually do something like that, I think I was just trying to make the point that sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better to hurry up the inevitable. But I would be just as hesitant to do anything that prolongs the comfortable sleep either. So I'd prefer to not interfere and contribute to either direction because I don't have the "higher" perspective to be able to know what is more beneficial for humanity at this time. For all I know, maybe prolonging the inevitable allows for more opportunity for people to wake up with less suffering, and this can somehow mitigate the "endgame" suffering to come. So instead of contributing to prolonging the illusion or hurrying up the apocalypse I'd really prefer to do neither and let the chips fall where they may, and just help those who ask along the way with the truth.

I see your point, I thought you were actually considering voting for McCain which really blew my mind. I tend to think that everything happens when it happens, there is no rushing it a long, there's no way to skip ahead, you just have to learn as much as you can in each moment and hope for the best. And sometimes, you need to relax and smell the roses, so to speak. I think the bit is bold is a rather wise way to approach the situation.

Did it help? Who knows. Maybe the process was rigged in favor of Obama, when you look at the media coverage you could easily argue that point. Overall the driving force in my voting was to learn about the process, see the new machines, voting in local elections and do my part in shooting down McCain, in that order.

I don't know, but you did ask "why not" so I just shared my perspective in that regard. And maybe I did misread, but just the fact that you kept reaffirming or asking that it can't hurt anything a number of times in a short paragraph kinda made me think that maybe you're trying to convince yourself and rationalize it, and looking for some sort of affirmation from others. Sorry if I am way off on this one.

I think I was mostly wondering what I was thinking and I really appreciate y'all providing your thoughts on the matter. Sometimes I definitely can't see the wood for the trees and this quite possibly could be an example of that. So thanks.

 

[combsbt]

Interesting, I understand your perspective much better now. I don't quite see it the same way, I think that one person spreading the truth is just another piling straws on the proverbial camels back. Whereas not showing up to vote really doesn't 'say' anything, I mean, people don't know you're not showing up because you think the process is bunk, for all they know you're just disinterested.

For what it's worth i did have an opportunity to express my reason for not voting in brief, to a number of people. I'm currently taking a class called Global Ethics in World Religion. Last night in class the professor asked for a show of hands on who had not voted, in a class of about 50 there were 4 hands up. One person was not able to vote because he was not an American citizen, one had requested an absentee ballot and not received it, and that left two of us. The professor said something along the lines of "so something prevented you two from voting, well that means for the next four years you guys can't complain." I'll point out that he is a funny guy and he made this remark partially in jest. The other student who hadn't voted pointed out that he was not prevented from voting, he made a decision to not vote. I said that I also made a decision not to vote, and that in my opinion we were the only two that "could" complain. The professor laughed and agreed that they were both different ways to look at it, shrugged and began lecturing. From what I could tell speaking with other students for the rest of the class, I think some of them realized a perspective that they hadn't considered before. Not sure if this is exactly a positive effect of not voting, but I believe at least it got a couple people thinking.