Are you voting & why?

[Oxajil]

fwiw:

Cheers to all,
Best Wishes to All,
Enjoy Your Long and Strange Journey,
Happy 5th of November

- Goodbye

Myth:

Could you please explain the meaning/purpose behind your posting "Goodbye" at the end of your post? I thought it might mean that you were leaving the Forum, but I see that you are still posting in other threads.

Some very important points have been raised by Anart with regard to your misunderstanding the purpose of this Forum and members' references to "the Work". If you intend to continue to participate on the Forum, don't you think it would be good idea to respond to these points and attempt to correct your misunderstandings? If you petulantly pre-empt every discussion that points out errors on your part with a "Goodbye", you're simply pre-empting opportunities to learn -- about yourself as well as the purpose and principles that this Forum is based on.

Perhaps it is because she interprets these 'feedback'/'observations' or 'mirrors' as assaults or attacks. Like she mentioned here:

I take assaults on my logic and reasoning as an opportunity for growth instead of something to get offended by as long as the lines of communication are open. I enjoy debating the meaning behind simple exchanges, conversation or the meaning of our words.

And perhaps she mistakens these discussions as debates.

However, she might mean the same, but uses different words.

Myth of Myself also said:

Don't worry it won't happen again.

If you, MoM, are familiar with G's Teachings, you might understand that many people keep doing things that 'they' don't want to do. You tell us, or someone in particular, not to worry. But we don't share our observations, I think, because we want you to change for US, we tell you this to help you with your journey of recognizing YOU. You said yourself that you do not take anything for granted. How can you take your knowledge about yourself for granted, as the truth? Is it Absolute Truth that you will always act in a way You want? You have the chance to do something with this, with these observations from others on your behavior and observations from yourself and of course Gurdjieff's knowledge and all the other knowledge advised by this forum, you can try to grow. So it's really all up to you. Try not to tell 'us' not to worry, try to tell that to yourself. And I'm not just talking about the 'WoW' post, but everything that will come up in the future. Because you might keep telling us or the people around you that things you don't want to happen ''will truely not happen anymore'', which is nothing but a lie. Not only to them, but also to you. And perhaps some things won't happen again for some period, but that is merely caused by chance. Not by your Will. Or so I think.

So if you want; try to answer the questions asked in this forum. Or try to answer them to yourself, you don't have to necessarily post them here if you don't want to, but try to analyze everything you do and think.

As has been said before; we're on the same side.

 

[Myth of Myself]

I will be more open to observing my intentions and actions and where the motivations for both are coming from.

I made the comment "Goodbye" because I had planned on not posting anything else on this forum, but instead of running away, I have been reflecting upon my actions and tone in this thread, I decided that my attitude and outlook needed some adjusting.

I'm rather ashamed at my lapse of "subjectivity" but it has been a good lesson.

Thanks Oxajil and all, I appreciate your examples of patience.

 

[anart]

I will be more open to observing my intentions and actions and where the motivations for both are coming from.

That is extremely important and positive if one is interested in self-development.  Could you also, please, answer the questions directed toward you in this thread?

 

[Cyre2067]

I will be more open to observing my intentions and actions and where the motivations for both are coming from.

I made the comment "Goodbye" because I had planned on not posting anything else on this forum, but instead of running away, I have been reflecting upon my actions and tone in this thread, I decided that my attitude and outlook needed some adjusting.

I'm rather ashamed at my lapse of "subjectivity" but it has been a good lesson.

Thanks Oxajil and all, I appreciate your examples of patience.

Hi Myth, I don't want you to feel like you're getting jumped on, but as Anart pointed out, the best way to show your appreciation and 'be more open to observing [your] intentions and actions' etc is to go back and answer the questions posed to you in the last few pages of the thread as honestly as possible. Again, the goal is to allow ourselves to see ourselves more objectively and to do that we need input from others. Our forum is vastly different from any you'll find on the web, as it's based on the teachings of Gurdjieff. The forum guidelines really lay it out clearly and succinctly. Reading In Search of the Miraculous by PD Ouspensky gives you a much more in depth idea of what we're doing though.

For what it's worth i did have an opportunity to express my reason for not voting in brief, to a number of people. I'm currently taking a class called Global Ethics in World Religion. Last night in class the professor asked for a show of hands on who had not voted, in a class of about 50 there were 4 hands up. One person was not able to vote because he was not an American citizen, one had requested an absentee ballot and not received it, and that left two of us. The professor said something along the lines of "so something prevented you two from voting, well that means for the next four years you guys can't complain." I'll point out that he is a funny guy and he made this remark partially in jest. The other student who hadn't voted pointed out that he was not prevented from voting, he made a decision to not vote. I said that I also made a decision not to vote, and that in my opinion we were the only two that "could" complain. The professor laughed and agreed that they were both different ways to look at it, shrugged and began lecturing. From what I could tell speaking with other students for the rest of the class, I think some of them realized a perspective that they hadn't considered before. Not sure if this is exactly a positive effect of not voting, but I believe at least it got a couple people thinking.

Interesting way to engage the class. I've been out of school for a few years now, so I don't have the opportunity to express myself in that manner (I use blogging). It's cool that you got to express yourself, but did you give the class any indication of why you consciously chose to not vote? If not, what you do think people's default assumption would have been? Just curious.

 

[combsbt]

Interesting way to engage the class. I've been out of school for a few years now, so I don't have the opportunity to express myself in that manner (I use blogging). It's cool that you got to express yourself, but did you give the class any indication of why you consciously chose to not vote? If not, what you do think people's default assumption would have been? Just curious.

The people sitting around me asked why, and I spoke with a different group during the break mid-class. I explained that I don't think the system works and that by voting you are supporting a malfunctioning system. Some of them seemed to think the system was working perfectly - after all they had just elected the first black president. But a few of them of them thought about it and told me they thought I was right, that they were supporting a bad system by voting. I don't know if that will effect them positively in the future - But I think it came in the form of a "shock" and those are generally considered beneficial if oriented toward self-observation. I think the default assumption would be, well, people shrug things off in many ways but I think the general reaction would be to just not think about it.

 

[Myth of Myself]

Q: anart: "Who do you respect as a friend, person and healer? Why would you?"
A: I was referring to Bernhard. I have known him "in person" for about 6 years.

Q: Pepperfritz: "You seem to be going out of your way to be rude and inconsiderate towards other forum members. What do you hope to achieve by that? Have you read the Forum Rules?"
A: Yes I have read the rules and after reflecting upon my initial actions and comments I came to the understanding that I was not being objective and stated in my post that "I have been reflecting upon my actions and tone in this thread, I decided that my attitude and outlook needed some adjusting. I'm rather ashamed at my lapse of "subjectivity" but it has been a good lesson."

Q: Oxajil: "How can you take your knowledge about yourself for granted, as the truth?"
A: I feel to "know thyself" is to seek to understand oneself objectively, but these understandings are not necessarily transferable to others as absolute truths.

Q: Oxajil: "Is it Absolute Truth that you will always act in a way You want?"
A: No.

Q: anart: "Could you also, please, answer the questions directed toward you in this thread?"
A: I think that is all of them. If I missed one, feel free to point it out to me. This is a hoot!

 

[Jacques]

"Who do you respect as a friend, person and healer? Why would you?"
I was referring to Bernhard. I have known him "in person" for about 6 years.

"You seem to be going out of your way to be rude and inconsiderate towards other forum members. What do you hope to achieve by that? Have you read the Forum Rules?"
Yes I have read the rules and after reflecting upon my initial actions and comments I came to the understanding that I was not being objective and stated:

"I have been reflecting upon my actions and tone in this thread, I decided that my attitude and outlook needed some adjusting.
I'm rather ashamed at my lapse of "subjectivity" but it has been a good lesson."

"How can you take your knowledge about yourself for granted, as the truth?"
I feel to "know thyself" is to seek to understand oneself objectively, but these understandings are not necessarily transferable to others as absolute truths.

"Is it Absolute Truth that you will always act in a way You want?"
No.

"That is extremely important and positive if one is interested in self-development. Could you also, please, answer the questions directed toward you in this thread?"
I think that is all of them. Sorry if I missed one and if so, please point it out to me.

Hi MoM,

May i say that your post is very difficult to read. I know that you are quoting someone, but i do not who and moreover after the first two sentences, i just do not know where are the quotes.

Could you please clarify your post.

Here is the way to quote.

Or you could do [Xquote=name of the person you want to quote] the text to be quoted [/quote]. But do not put the X in the first part of the bracket. It should be a blank.

 

[PepperFritz]

I think that is all of them. Sorry if I missed one and if so, please point it out to me.

Just the question posed by Anart below, about Gurdjieff and "the Work". I, for one, am interested to know whether you are now clear on what the phrase "the Work" refers to; and whether you also understand that this forum does not in any way promote the idea that the Cassiopaea material (or the writings of Gurdjieff for that matter) are "true without question" -- far from it! As you have not in any way acknowledged your misperceptions about these matters, we have no way of knowing whether they've been corrected and whether you've "read up" on these subjects yet. For future reference, the Cassiopea/SOTT Esoteric Glossary is very useful when you encounter terminology you are not familiar with.

When you refer to "the work" over and over, it reminds me a bit of when I was a child growing up in the South where people made similar statements to the "good book" over and over as if to say it's truth is an established fact. I do not believe that the channeled "material" is true without question just as I don't believe the Upanishads, Rumi, The Gospel of Thomas, The Tao Te Ching etc, etc are complete truths.

And here it is very clear that you have no idea what Bernhard is referring to when he says 'Work' - it is not the channeled material. It is the Fourth Way - the Work as defined and developed by GI Gurdjieff. Are you at all familiar with Gurdjieff? - it is actually his Work upon which this forum is based.

 

[PepperFritz]

Q: anart: "Could you also, please, answer the questions directed toward you in this thread?"
A: I think that is all of them. If I missed one, feel free to point it out to me. This is a hoot!

I've just noticed that since my reply to your last post, you have now added the phrase "This is a hoot!".

I don't understand what you mean to communicate by that comment. Could you clarify?

 

[Bernhard]

I think that is all of them. Sorry if I missed one and if so, please point it out to me.

Just the question posed by Anart below, about Gurdjieff and "the Work". I, for one, am interested to know whether you are now clear on what the phrase "the Work" refers to; and whether you also understand that this forum does not in any way promote the idea that the Cassiopaea material (or the writings of Gurdjieff for that matter) are "true without question" -- far from it! As you have not in any way acknowledged your misperceptions about these matters, we have no way of knowing whether they've been corrected and whether you've "read up" on these subjects yet. For future reference, the Cassiopea/SOTT Esoteric Glossary is very useful when you encounter terminology you are not familiar with.

Just for clarification on my end since I know Myth personally (as he pointed out as well), I have communicated to him about the term "The Work" privately ( I've sent him the same link) and that no one is taking the C's material as absolute truth or gospel. He has also apologized to me for his tone. From what I know he's in the middle of "The Wave" Series and getting a better insight into G's work as well.

As you have not in any way acknowledged your misperceptions about these matters, we have no way of knowing whether they've been corrected and whether you've "read up" on these subjects yet.

It seems the misperceptions have been resolved but he has most likely forgotten to mention it publicly here on the forum or on this thread. This may be in a way my fault since I talked to him privately and he may have been under the impression that he now understood and wanted to let it go, not being aware that other forum members have been left hanging without any explanation. Sorry if I contributed to the misunderstanding, but I certainly can attest that the major misconceptions have been made aware to him and he seems to be working on gaining more information/knowledge on these issues.

 

[anart]

Hi Bernhard,

Do you understand what it says about 'MythofMyself' that you would feel the need to make this post of yours?  It might be worth considering that his/her behavior is speaking quite loudly for itself.

All that is really ever asked of people here is sincerity and the willingness to put self-importance and personal sacred cows out to pasture.  In 'mythof's case, sincerity, from all evidence thus far, is severely lacking and self-importance is running the show.  Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to ask yourself why you really felt the need to 'step in on his/her behalf' when he/she has not yet evidenced any reason (at all) for anyone to think that she/he is here for anything other than 'fun and amusement at others expense'?

 

[Myth of Myself]

I was just lightening things up a bit by saying it was a hoot to answer the questions from this thread.

 

[anart]

I was just lightening things up a bit by saying it was a hoot to answer the questions from this thread.

Very well, but certainly you understand that if you're the only one who thinks it's a 'hoot', then it's not really funny, is it?  When other extremely sincere people are taking time and energy to try to help you understand what is going on here and why - in hopes that you will actually be able to continue to participate on this forum - then your laughing while they're doing it doesn't really bode well, does it?

You see, the world is on fire - literally - and what we are doing here is trying to wake up as many people as possible before they are consumed in flames.  They may be consumed anyway, we do not know - however, the reason we are here at all is to try to awaken them.  There really isn't much that is funny about that, at least that I can see.

We also take humor very seriously, actually - since without it, we'd all be in the rubber room by now - but it has its time and place and when sincere people are actually trying to get through to you - it's not the time or the place.  I would hope that makes sense, though, I do admit that at this point, the hope is not very large.

 

[Bernhard]

Hi Bernhard,

Do you understand what it says about 'MythofMyself' that you would feel the need to make this post of yours? It might be worth considering that his/her behavior is speaking quite loudly for itself.

The only thing thing it says in my eyes is that there have been misconceptions he is not aware of since he has not yet read/understood "The Work" and G's teachings. I'm not stepping up for him, but simply stated that I've been talking to him and thought that this was the reason why he didn't clarify himself fully here, since I brought up most of the issues others are pointing out to him here as well and I just told him to let the "voting thread" go (before other members started asking questions), hence I apologized if I indirectly may have contributed to the misunderstanding since because of my "interference" he may have not felt the need to check back to answer the questions.
So I wanted to clarify and apologize. Maybe things would have been easier resolved and answered accordingly if I wouldn't have taken that step, maybe not. I do not know.

Clarification about this was my only reason for stepping in. What else that may say about him nor not, I do not know. If he truly understood what was being said by me or others I also do not know and is not up to me. My personal take on this is, that he will understand much better and act accordingly when he's gotten more familiar with esoteric work and G's teachings. Hence, I also suggested to him to read ISOTM, for that will give him a better context to appreciate what has been conveyed to him.

 

[Beau]

Hi Bernhard,

Do you understand what it says about 'MythofMyself' that you would feel the need to make this post of yours? It might be worth considering that his/her behavior is speaking quite loudly for itself.

The only thing thing it says in my eyes is that there have been misconceptions he is not aware of since he has not yet read/understood "The Work" and G's teachings.

No, their is more here than "misconceptions" Bernhard. You seem to be missing the points that are being made towards Myth. It doesn't take a scholar's understanding of Gurdjieff to know how act cordially and considerately.

I'm not stepping up for him, but simply stated that I've been talking to him and thought that this was the reason why he didn't clarify himself fully here, since I brought up most of the issues others are pointing out to him here as well and I just told him to let the "voting thread" go (before other members started asking questions), hence I apologized if I indirectly may have contributed to the misunderstanding since because of my "interference" he may have not felt the need to check back to answer the questions.

Why would you need to repeat the things that were already said to him here on the forum? Why do you feel the need to counsel him and tell him to "let it go"? What are you getting out of that?

Clarification about this was my only reason for stepping in.

Did you just up and decide that Myth needed clarification? Why are you considering Myth's needs for him? I would hope that if Myth needed that he would come right out and say so. If he is instead coming to you privately for Work-related advice instead of to the forum, then this creates an unhealthy dynamic which lead to both people feeding off each other.

Hence, I also suggested to him to read ISOTM, for that will give him a better context to appreciate what has been conveyed to him.

Not needed. Why are you determining Myth's needs? The main point in all this is that he should not have to read an entire book in order to communicate with people in an orderly and considerate fashion. The fact that he considers you a "teacher" speaks volumes, both about him and you. I mean, this guy hasn't really demonstrated what good teaching skills you have, if that is what you are doing in your spare time.