Bird Flu, Swine Flu, Vaccines

[JonnyRadar]

But what about the morality of a fragile youth being poisoned in the name of "health"? Who answers for that and does anyone want to give their support to such a system?

yes, that is a frustrating contradiction. i can educate my students about graphic design, but if i try to educate them about health, i'm stepping outside of my boundaries and risk legal consequences!

It makes me so incredibly angry because it didn't have to be! All the needless suffering that people are going through....

that's awful to hear Odyssey, but thank you for sharing the story. it's important to know that this is probably going to be happening to a lot of people.

Since he's gonna get the shot anyway (whether you go with him or not), you can at least be there afterwards, to give him advice regarding Vitamin C and ALA, and other remedies which are recommended in case of swine flu or swine flu shot.
Do you know HIS opinion about the vaccine?

yes, i can definitely do that. i mean, his mom's in a row about getting the shot, so there's no way to even bring that up, but i could talk about supplemental things he could do afterwards. the fine-line, so to speak, is if anything i say is interpreted as trying to influence or supersede his mom's decision. no, i don't know his opinion, but i'll be giving him a ride home this afternoon so it'd be a good time to ask nonchalantly.

thanks for all the advice, this has been quite a conundrum for me. i hate the idea that he may be seriously affected by this shot, and that it will have been totally senseless, based on fear and obedience to the pathological system.

 

[Tempus Fugit]

There seems to be personal issues here that could be being used to try to muddy the waters as well. This is standing out:

anyhow, i simply declined and said i wouldn't be available, which sucks 'cause he's probably going to ask me why i wouldn't go, and i don't want to lie, but if i tell him what i think about the shot,

Maybe (if he hasn't already got the shot) provide him with the data that led you to think this way? Then he can make up his own mind and instead of telling his mother that You Said he shouldn't get it he can discuss with her why, through some research, he has his own doubts about it? Then you are not at risk of having to defend your job and point of view, because it isn't your point of view.

it's gonna come up with his mother, at which point she'll raise a stink about faculty getting involved in the health issues of the students.

The thing is, she's already asked for faculty to get involved in the health issues of the students by sending Radar an email asking him to accompany her son. The difference here seems to be that in her 'asking', she isn't asking for advice or help with her son's decision....she's made his decision for him and wants someone to 'be on her side' and see that it gets done and also that he has support in doing so.

Percival brought up an interesting question:

Quick question before I respond JR: how old is the student?

Technically the student is of legal age to make these decisions for himself, yet hasn't been out of the house for long so being 'on his own' and making these kind of decisions is still pretty new and that's worth considering. Being as Radar and I are neighbors we have discussed the relationship of the mother and student a few times before. I've met the student, he is very quiet and withdrawn, doesn't appear to be 'slow', and is absolutely dominated by his mother. This seems to be a case of attempting to force others to take her side in continueing to make his decisions for him and reinforce dependency. He seems to find just about everything to be extremely intimidating and relies on her for help/decisions.

For the most part, there seems to be a serious power-struggle going on, mom's on top and working to get more support by asking others to 'support' her son in going through with a decision she has made for him. The student doesn't seem to know what to do one way or the other, but will trust mom once more especially if many people stand beside her - knowing they have his best interest at heart of course. It seems to me that what is going on here is more attempted manipulation, domination, and one trying to do another's thinking for them with the 'best intentions' at heart, of course. Being as she is in the medical field and so blindly trusting of the vaccine is also indicative that there is a lot of programming on her part in this regard.

Radar says there is a possiprobability she will 'make a stink', and I tend to agree with him, so it seems that whether or not JR goes isn't going to change the outcome. It seems to be a choice being forced on JR that is a disguise for underlaying mother/son issues of control, dependence, and side-taking. Maybe much potential pain and drama can be avoided by the student educating himself and making his own decision, as well as being confident in said decision to get his shot all by himself or possibly even help mom understand why he doesn't want it if that were the case?

From what I gather, she seems to indeed love and want to protect her son.......yet I've heard it said and seen it myself through observation of programs and predator/ego based thinking: Sometimes parents 'love' their children to Death.

Laura says:

Dunno if that is exactly it. It's withdrawing support from a totally STS activity. I think that I would say "no, I personally don't believe in flu shots so I won't go." You are entitled to your "beliefs" and to live according to them.

Which seems to illustrate that since this is a friend of Radar's that he is finding it hard to simply say the above and be done with it. That it is 'harder' to be willing to respect another's free will and give help/data only if asked when one is watching a reactionary choice being made that clearly goes against what one knows to be true? Is there a play on your emotions being attempted that could result in generation of much food?

i can educate my students about graphic design, but if i try to educate them about health, i'm stepping outside of my boundaries and risk legal consequences!

Maybe....

?​

 

[anart]

Having read all this, I admit to not understanding - at all - why you are so personally involved with this student in the first place. It sounds like the mother has manipulated you into feeling personally responsible for this student, yet doesn't allow you to even be able to give voice to your knowledge about anything. It's a rather ridiculous situation. Where is the customary professional distance?

It also sounds like it was quite the easy job of manipulation on the mother's part because you have some sort of 'hero' program running - like it's your responsibility to make life easier for this 19 year old when doing so will automatically run counter to his mother's control ploys. Your hero program has led you into a sticky situation. I see no evidence of vigilance on your part, for having gotten personally involved with the life of a student in the first place (especially one with such a volatile mother!) - but when those programs run, clear thinking and vigilance goes out the window.

This person is not your son, he's not your family, he's a student - so what is with the rides home and the treating him like he's a hot house flower whose protection you are personally responsible for? If there is a trap here, it's been set by your own self-importance and 'knight in shining armor' programs, methinks - but that's just my two cents and I could be off.

 

[JonnyRadar]

thanks Tempus and anart for your insights.

Your hero program has led you into a sticky situation. I see no evidence of vigilance on your part, for having gotten personally involved with the life of a student in the first place (especially one with such a volatile mother!) - but when those programs run, clear thinking and vigilance goes out the window.

you're right, for sure.

This person is not your son, he's not your family, he's a student - so what is with the rides home and the treating him like he's a hot house flower whose protection you are personally responsible for?

i give him rides back to the dorms after class because we're situated on the side of a large hill, and it's hard for him to walk back up the hill at the end of the day, so, as i go right by there on my way home, i usually give him a ride. that itself is practicality, imo, but there is definitely a large dose of the hero program going on there... it's certainly not my responsibility, i felt as though i was doing the "noble" thing.

If there is a trap here, it's been set by your own self-importance and 'knight in shining armor' programs, methinks - but that's just my two cents and I could be off.

i don't think you're off. i don't know what else to say except to admit that i have totally submitted to the knight in shining armor program, that is true. i have exhibited the savior-complex in the past in other situations, and after reading your concise reply, this appears to be no different. thank you for the mirror - i don't mean that flippantly at all...

incidentally, i phoned the director of student affairs and she will be accompanying this student while he goes to get the shot. i didn't have to explain myself to her, she said she knows it's not my responsibility and that she will take care of it. i feel as though that may have been the right thing to do, especially in this case where the manipulation seems evident... god, it's hard to admit i didn't see something so obvious. i have figured i was just helping him out because he didn't have anyone else to do so...

 

[Peam]

Glad to hear your current dilemma has been solved JR.

I'm thinking about what would have been the consequences if you had said you couldn’t possibly go with him because it’s against your religion to receive a vaccination or assist anyone in any way to get one?

She’ll likely raise a stink about that as well. Maybe even reach the media!! :/

But what could have been the fallout? Would you get the sack over it?

 

[JonnyRadar]

Glad to hear your current dilemma has been solved JR.

I'm thinking about what would have been the consequences if you had said you couldn’t possibly go with him because it’s against your religion to receive a vaccination or assist anyone in any way to get one?

She’ll likely raise a stink about that as well. Maybe even reach the media!! :/

But what could have been the fallout? Would you get the sack over it?

no, i wouldn't have gotten sacked, and the issue would not have been my refusal to go. that was a personal thing outside of any school responsibilities that i got sucked into by my own accord. his mother requested that i accompany him because she knew that we got along well, and i convinced myself that i must oblige because i'm his friend and confidant, and to do otherwise would've shattered his tenuous path towards opening up to other people. that was totally not the case and i see that now, i was easily manipulated. the only (legal) issue that would have been raised would have been if i tried to convince the student to make a health-related decision that went against the advice of his mother and his health care professionals. as i've never said anything of the sort to him personally, there's no issue there.

i'm sorry, i feel a bit as though i've hijacked this thread and wasted a lot of air on something that could've been seen from the beginning with a little bit of vigilance and observation... :/

edit: i must say, it still bothers me that he's being led into taking the shot. i think it's tragic that so many sick people are being convinced they must be immunized. alas, it's not my place to get involved on a personal level...

 

[anart]

that was a personal thing outside of any school responsibilities that i got sucked into by my own accord. his mother requested that i accompany him because she knew that we got along well, and i convinced myself that i must oblige because i'm his friend and confidant, and to do otherwise would've shattered his tenuous path towards opening up to other people.

You remember that determining the needs of another is STS, right? Self importance is a powerful thing.

How many other students do you give rides to so they don't have to walk up a big hill? Would having to walk up that big hill be some decent exercise? It seems you're really no different from his mother, trying to make normal and difficult things easier for him, when it's his life and he needs to live it and struggle like everyone else - to learn. It's my experience that the only way to make walking up a big hill easier, is to walk up the big hill - a lot!

i'm sorry, i feel a bit as though i've hijacked this thread and wasted a lot of air on something that could've been seen from the beginning with a little bit of vigilance and observation... :/

I think it was an important discussion, and that everyone has been given food for thought about it - not like we've heard the last about this type of situation!

 

[JonnyRadar]

You remember that determining the needs of another is STS, right? Self importance is a powerful thing.

yes. i mean, obviously i had forgotten, evidenced by my actions, but this has cemented it clearly for me.

How many other students do you give rides to so they don't have to walk up a big hill?

none, but i'm sure this symptom of determining the needs of others is/has been manifesting in other areas of my life. this is good motivation to root out those other places where i lack vigilance.

It seems you're really no different from his mother, trying to make normal and difficult things easier for him...

indeed. *sigh* thank you for pointing that out.

I think it was an important discussion, and that everyone has been given food for thought about it - not like we've heard the last about this type of situation!

certainly not. i hope people are able to learn from this as well, i will certainly etch this in my own mind as a moment of bankruptcy. i was taken in by my own self-importance and thus gave in to emotional manipulation and even stooped to manipulating others in subtle ways... i'm going to go think about that...

 

[anart]

certainly not. i hope people are able to learn from this as well, i will certainly etch this in my own mind as a moment of bankruptcy. i was taken in by my own self-importance and thus gave in to emotional manipulation and even stooped to manipulating others in subtle ways... i'm going to go think about that...

I think it's fantastic that you're willing and able to look at yourself and your motivations/actions like this - but I can assure you that this is not a bankruptcy. This is more of a tiny glimpse in the mirror at a program that has been running behind the scenes probably your whole life (which has provided a shock, which is useful!). When you take that entire life and have it stripped down to nothing - viscerally - and realize that you are nothing - viscerally - then you can begin to refer to bankruptcy.

And, when the day comes, there will be no doubt about it - and then, you can begin again!

 

[JonnyRadar]

I think it's fantastic that you're willing and able to look at yourself and your motivations/actions like this - but I can assure you that this is not a bankruptcy. This is more of a tiny glimpse in the mirror at a program that has been running behind the scenes probably your whole life (which has provided a shock, which is useful!). When you take that entire life and have it stripped down to nothing - viscerally - and realize that you are nothing - viscerally - then you can begin to refer to bankruptcy.

And, when the day comes, there will be no doubt about it - and then, you can begin again!

i will take that to heart. thank you anart.

 

[Breton]

i'm sorry, i feel a bit as though i've hijacked this thread and wasted a lot of air on something that could've been seen from the beginning with a little bit of vigilance and observation

Ah... but it gave us a chance to all learn! Thanks!

This situation reminded me of some principles I have been thinking about since doing the Work.

For example, a difficult situation like this often a good opportunity for self observation and learning the machine better. Especially if we can be mirrored.

Also the input by many people reminded me of how difficult it is to know what course of action best SERVES others that are involved.

Serving others precludes determining their needs. Further, quite many times, what a person's soul might be really asking for, which might be something that enables them to learn their lessons, is exactly opposite to what they are asking for!

Also, it seems that this way of serving others just happens naturally whenever we choose to act for our own destiny, like when we choose to not participate in other's illusions or lies. Laura's post reminded me of this concept. Further, we do not do this with the intent that we are going to CHANGE others, or TEACH them something, but we simply do not wish to contribute to STS, entropic, activities whenever we can spot those. Then, when we do this, we probably should not have any anticipation for any particular outcome to occur. [Is this not a key teaching of the C's: try not to anticipate?] We just let the lessons happen!

Well, for what its worth, those are my thoughts. I suppose I have mainly just repeated in my own way what has been said already here, though.

_Breton_

 

[Peam]

I agree with Anart with the ride situation. But I can’t see how you could realistically just stop giving him a lift now. You’ve seen the program now (and I’ve learnt from it too, so thanks everyone) but I would find it difficult to stop, and drive by him every day knowing I was going the same way.

So I guess you’re stuck with it until the situation changes?

 

[anart]

I agree with Anart with the ride situation. But I can’t see how you could realistically just stop giving him a lift now. You’ve seen the program now (and I’ve learnt from it too, so thanks everyone) but I would find it difficult to stop, and drive by him every day knowing I was going the same way.

You are assuming that giving him a ride is helping him - what if it isn't? (and, in the big picture, I don't think it is - but that is just my personal perception)

So I guess you’re stuck with it until the situation changes?

Interesting conclusion on your part, Peam. Why would he be stuck with it until the situation changes - as if he is invisibly controlled by 'the situation'? This will be a great opportunity for JohnnyRadar to figure out how to act with more perspicacity - how to manage the situation and make it more healthy for all involved - while practicing external consideration. He got himself into it and the lesson is now how to get himself out of it without making anyone else pay for it.

There are many possible ways to go about it - and this is part of being 'response - able' - to not be run by programs, whether that program is feeling 'stuck until the situation changes' or the 'hero' program he's already taking a look at. Learning is fun! (even when it doesn't seem that way at the moment... ;) )

 

[RedFox]

I agree with Anart with the ride situation. But I can’t see how you could realistically just stop giving him a lift now. You’ve seen the program now (and I’ve learnt from it too, so thanks everyone) but I would find it difficult to stop, and drive by him every day knowing I was going the same way.

So I guess you’re stuck with it until the situation changes?

Perhaps JR could start walking as well if they both have a smilar destination (or cycling?), to save petrol costs?? :)

 

[Peam]

I agree with Anart with the ride situation. But I can’t see how you could realistically just stop giving him a lift now. You’ve seen the program now (and I’ve learnt from it too, so thanks everyone) but I would find it difficult to stop, and drive by him every day knowing I was going the same way.

You are assuming that giving him a ride is helping him - what if it isn't? (and, in the big picture, I don't think it is - but that is just my personal perception)

Yeah, he must be capable of walking it, otherwise he or his mother would have made travel arrangements when he first started.

So I guess you’re stuck with it until the situation changes?

Interesting conclusion on your part, Peam. Why would he be stuck with it until the situation changes - as if he is invisibly controlled by 'the situation'?

That’s why I put a question mark at the end. I wasn’t sure. It’s a difficult situation which would need a lot of thought to get out of with external consideration.
Every similar situation is slightly different so it’s up to JR to find the best solution for his particular circumstances.