Bird Flu, Swine Flu, Vaccines

[Joe]

Not that this is surprising, but it kind of spells out just how deliberately the PTB are pushing the vaccine on people. It's really callous however that they are pushing a seriously questionable and likely dangerous vaccine on pregnant women.

Note the figures at the end. Those "80,000" last week are very likely to be mainly normal flu cases. But what they heck, take the vaccine anyway, "just to be sure, eh?"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1226704

GPs to get bigger bonuses if they meet swine flu jab targets

By Daniel Martin
Last updated at 12:08 AM on 11th November 2009

Doctors are in line for huge bonuses if large numbers of their patients sign up for swine flu jabs.

Managers at a major health trust are offering extra payments on top of the £5.25 that GPs already get per injection.

If they vaccinate more than 90 per cent of those deemed at risk of the disease in their area, they will get 50 per cent more per jab - £7.88 per person.

An uptake of just 40 per cent will earn doctors an extra 10 per cent.

The extra payments are being offered by Heart of Birmingham primary care trust, according to Pulse magazine.

It is not known whether the bonuses, which would be worth thousands of pounds per practice, are available elsewhere in the country.

Last night, critics expressed outrage that GPs were getting yet more money for effectively pushing drugs on to their patients.

They said medics should not be given extra rewards simply for doing their jobs.

Doctors insist the money will go towards overtime and the extra staff needed to give the jabs.

Yet GPs have seen their pay soar since the introduction of new contracts. The average salary is now more than £106,000 - 47 per cent higher than the £72,000 they earned in 2002/03, according to the Department of Health.

Pulse reports that officials in Birmingham are worried about a second wave of swine flu over the winter.

Vaccinations are initially being offered to pregnant women and patients with underlying health problems such as asthma and diabetes.

Norman Lamb, Liberal Democrat health spokesman, said: 'It is hard to justify yet more payments to GPs. There is already an agreed payment which means that substantial amounts of money will flow to GPs.

'This agreement works on the assumption that GPs aren't motivated by what is best for their patients.

'The danger is that swine flu will become a massive money-spinner for drugs companies.'

Jackie Fletcher, of vaccination support group Jabs, said: 'There are huge questions about the integrity of vaccine decisions if doctors are paid to give them.'

A spokesman for the trust said Birmingham had been badly hit by swine flu over the summer and the bonus scheme was a carefully-considered response.

The scale of the impact of swine flu on the working-age population is starting to emerge.

Figures from the NHS Information Centre show that almost a half of all those admitted to hospital after catching the disease over the summer were aged between 17 and 59.

The figures are surprising because flu usually affects the young and the old.

They show that a bigger second wave of the illness could have a devastating impact on the economy, and could put the NHS under severe pressure.

The number of bed days spent in hospital by flu patients soared from 207 in July 2008 to 3,976 in July 2009.

Last week, an estimated 84,000 new cases of the virus were reported and experts are predicting a spike over the winter months. In July the figure stood at 100,000 a week.

 

[JonnyRadar]

here where i teach, the vaccine's not mandatory yet (though we're encouraged to get BOTH seasonal and h1n1) but they're releasing early doses of the h1n1 vaccine for people who are "high-risk". get this, here's the list of conditions that indicate a high-risk person, according to the email we received:

High Risk Medical Conditions include:

· Neurological and neurodevelopmental conditions [including disorders of the brain, spinal cord, peripheral nerve, and muscle such as cerebral palsy, epilepsy (seizure disorders), stroke, intellectual disability (mental retardation), moderate to severe developmental delay, muscular dystrophy, or spinal cord injury].

· Asthma

· Chronic lung disease (such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease [COPD] and cystic fibrosis)

· Heart Disease (such as congenital heart disease, congestive heart failure and coronary artery disease)

· Blood disorders (such as sickle cell disease)

· Endocrine disorders (such as diabetes mellitus)

· Kidney disorders

· Liver disorders

· Metabolic disorders (such as inherited metabolic disorders and mitochondrial disorders)

· Weakened immune system due to disease or medication (such as people with HIV or AIDS, or cancer, or those on chronic steroids)

so, i have a student who's got at least four of the above conditions (he's in bad shape), and since this student and i are fairly close (i help with rides and such when i can) his mother is asking me to accompany him to get the shot, so that he'll have some "moral support" as he's afraid of going... his mother's going to make him get the shot, which is frustrating to watch because i know he won't go against her wishes - he's got social anxiety on top of everything so conflict of any kind is out of the question. and i'd like to be available as support for him for whatever he needs, but i can't support his mother's directive to give him the shot...

anyhow, i simply declined and said i wouldn't be available, which sucks 'cause he's probably going to ask me why i wouldn't go, and i don't want to lie, but if i tell him what i think about the shot, it's gonna come up with his mother, at which point she'll raise a stink about faculty getting involved in the health issues of the students. on top of all of this, she's a health-care professional! so that makes it doubly-impossible for me to say anything in regards to his health issues. id' rather not get myself and the school sued and put the student through all of that malarky.

so, it looks like he's gonna get the shot no matter what, and i'm really apprehensive that it's going to turn out bad for him. i suppose all that can be done is wait and see...

(this is kind of venting, but any feedback/advice would be appreciated)

 

[Breton]

(this is kind of venting, but any feedback/advice would be appreciated)

This is rather instinctive, and not well thought out reply: given what you wrote about the situation, choosing not to go with the student serves only one person in this scenario: you.

It saves you from seeing something you don't want to see.

Benefits to others: nil?

.

 

[Mayb]

I have chance to ask some of medical stuff and medicine doctors what they will do in case that all population must me vacinated.
Some of them prepared seasonal flu vaccines for their kids and in case that there is no way to avoid vacccination due to some law regulation they will give seasonal vaccine to the kids , since you cant get another vaccine within 3 weeks after you receive some. They think that if there is no way that they avoid the swine flu vaccination they will at least delayed for 3 weeks to have some time to find another solution to avoid the vaccine.

 

[JonnyRadar]

This is rather instinctive, and not well thought out reply: given what you wrote about the situation, choosing not to go with the student serves only one person in this scenario: you.

It saves you from seeing something you don't want to see.

Benefits to others: nil?

true. thanks Breton for pointing that out. to not go really only serves my sense of moral indignation, and would leave him feeling as though i'd abandoned him... (he's extremely sensitive, so no, that's not blowing it out of proportion)

it's just... grrr... to give someone with an auto-immune disorder a shot that's gonna smack their immune system down? it's maddening... but my hands are tied as far as sharing any data with him or his mother. she's raised a huge stink about much smaller things than that before...

 

[Joe]

(this is kind of venting, but any feedback/advice would be appreciated)

This is rather instinctive, and not well thought out reply: given what you wrote about the situation, choosing not to go with the student serves only one person in this scenario: you.

It saves you from seeing something you don't want to see.

Benefits to others: nil?

Quick question before I respond JR: how old is the student?

In the situation, I think there was no possible way that JR could have been of real benefit to anyone.

If he goes he simply makes it easier for the student to get a dangerous vaccine. Does his going have a positive or negative impact on the student? (over and above making it momentarily easier for him to get the shot)

If he doesn't go the student goes with someone else and still gets the dangerous vaccine. Does his not going have a positive or negative impact on the student? (apart from the possible extra temporary anxiety he will feel with someone else)

As I read it, his involvement or non involvement results in the same situation. The student is going to get the vaccine and his momentary comfort or discomfort is insignificant compared to the potentially serious negative impact on his health from getting the shot.

Which then just leaves the matter of JR's own conscience. Could he in all conscience provide "moral support" (interesting that that word came up) to someone to get a vaccine that he is fairly sure is actually bad for the person's health? Even if the person is going to get it whether he goes with him or not?

 

[Adaryn]

In the situation, I think there was no possible way that JR could have been of benefit to anyone.

If he goes he simply makes it easier for the student to get a dangerous vaccine.

If he doesn't go the student goes with someone else and still gets the dangerous vaccine.

Which then just leaves the matter of JR's own conscience. Could he in all conscience accompany someone to get a vaccine that he is fairly sure is actually bad for the person's health?

That's tricky. Wouldn't it be more externally considerate to at least be there for him for support (if the person asks for it), if there's nothing else to do? Sometimes there's not much else one can do.

 

[Joe]

In the situation, I think there was no possible way that JR could have been of benefit to anyone.

If he goes he simply makes it easier for the student to get a dangerous vaccine.

If he doesn't go the student goes with someone else and still gets the dangerous vaccine.

Which then just leaves the matter of JR's own conscience. Could he in all conscience accompany someone to get a vaccine that he is fairly sure is actually bad for the person's health?

That's tricky. Wouldn't it be more externally considerate to at least be there for him for support (if the person asks for it), if there's nothing else to do? Sometimes there's not much else one can do.

It is a tricky one. My thinking was that, because JR can't even express his opposition to the idea and the dangers to the student or the student's mother because of JR's position as a teacher, he should not involve himself at all. The idea of having to walk down into the vaccination center and "provide moral support" supposedly in the form of "it'll be ok, you'll be fine, it's for your own good" all the while believing exactly the opposite would not be something I would choose to do, especially if there was another option. The other option I suppose is for someone else to take him, someone who is enthusiastic about the vaccine and would provide conscience free moral support.

The real problem here is that, while the student and parents are unaware of it, this is a very serious personal decision that the family would NOT ask anyone outside the family to be involved in. The problem is that the family are unaware of the real nature of the decision.

I suspect that these kind of problems are going to become more and more common for members here as time goes on. In a different world, a teacher in such a situation would automatically support the taking of a state administered vaccine by a student, but the world we live in is one where state's are trying to poison and kill students and civilians in general.

 

[JonnyRadar]

Quick question before I respond JR: how old is the student?

he's nineteen.

Does his not going have a positive or negative impact on the student? (apart from the possible extra temporary anxiety he will feel with someone else)

the situation is - he's got a condition that makes him look "strange", he's overweight, and he doesn't interact with other people well (which is an understatement - confrontation will throw him into a full-on panic attack), so he's got no friends on campus except for me. other kids made fun of him the first year but that's tapered off, and now he seems pretty level and is starting to open up a bit, but i'm the only person he trusts and he comes and talks to me whenever he has a problem. so yes, my NOT going would result in some anxiety on his part, and probably a feeling of abandonment.

That's tricky. Wouldn't it be more externally considerate to at least be there for him for support (if the person asks for it), if there's nothing else to do? Sometimes there's not much else one can do.

this is kind of where i'm struggling. he's going to get the shot, his mother's going to make him. there's nothing i can do about that and nothing he will do about that. but he's afraid to go (keep in mind this is an extremely fragile individual), and so his mother asked if i would go to support him. i know that he would appreciate me being there and i don't want to add to his feeling of isolation by declining. he already feels isolated by his mother (nothing short of his own private fascist dictator) and the other students at school.

to put his fragility into context, last year another teacher asked him a question in class about a choice he had made on a paper. that slight confrontation sent him into a panic attack that put him in the hospital. i sat and waited for the ambulance holding his backpack while he thought he was having a heart attack. so... this is a "kid gloves" situation.

i really think the shot will harm his health severely, but he's going to get it. all that's left is whether i want to accompany him or not, but the ramifications of going or not going are deeper psychologically than they would be with a healthy, well-adjusted person. as i said, i'm practically the only person he trusts that he knows.

edit: perhaps some clarification. he knows that i know his mother is oppressive. he's expressed that to me in the past. perhaps, if i went with him, i could explain that i don't agree with getting the shot but i'm there for him, and does he even want me to be there... i'll see him this afternoon so perhaps that's a good time to ask him if he even wants me to go, or if this is something his mother has concocted - which is a possibility.

 

[Joe]

edit: perhaps some clarification. he knows that i know his mother is oppressive. he's expressed that to me in the past. perhaps, if i went with him, i could explain that i don't agree with getting the shot but i'm there for him, and does he even want me to be there... i'll see him this afternoon so perhaps that's a good time to ask him if he even wants me to go, or if this is something his mother has concocted - which is a possibility.

well that's a bit different. If you CAN talk to him about the negative effects of the vaccine without causing a firestorm, and even make suggestions on other ways to combat the flu, like Vit C etc, and if he really has no one else to go with him and he is as fragile as you say, then I would go.

 

[Laura]

(this is kind of venting, but any feedback/advice would be appreciated)

This is rather instinctive, and not well thought out reply: given what you wrote about the situation, choosing not to go with the student serves only one person in this scenario: you.

It saves you from seeing something you don't want to see.

Benefits to others: nil?

.

Dunno if that is exactly it. It's withdrawing support from a totally STS activity. I think that I would say "no, I personally don't believe in flu shots so I won't go." You are entitled to your "beliefs" and to live according to them.

 

[JonnyRadar]

well that's a bit different. If you CAN talk to him about the negative effects of the vaccine without causing a firestorm, and even make suggestions on other ways to combat the flu, like Vit C etc, and if he really has no one else to go with him and he is as fragile as you say, then I would go.

well, i can talk to him about what my own beliefs are, but if i "put ideas in his head" about the vaccine, it will cause a firestorm for sure. i've dealt with his mother before, she thrives on creating conflict. one of his works was rejected from the student show last year and she called every single faculty trying to spread rumors about the gallery director... so, if it involved something like his health issues, i don't even want to think about what she would do... and yes, he is that fragile, so i have to think about the ramifications of how what i say would result in something his mother would do, which would then cause a tense environment for him, which can be catastrophic (as far as his stability goes).

Dunno if that is exactly it. It's withdrawing support from a totally STS activity. I think that I would say "no, I personally don't believe in flu shots so I won't go." You are entitled to your "beliefs" and to live according to them.

right, but what Breton said made sense to me, in the sense that my own comfort/discomfort with the situation should take a back seat to being support for him in a situation where he's frightened and vulnerable. or in that case am i being manipulated by my emotions and don't see it?

I suspect that these kind of problems are going to become more and more common for members here as time goes on. In a different world, a teacher in such a situation would automatically support the taking of a state administered vaccine by a student, but the world we live in is one where state's are trying to poison and kill students and civilians in general.

indeed, and this is definitely going to come up more and more. it's so frustrating to see. our coaches already made the athletes get vaccinated (they sign health waivers to play sports) and more than half of them got sick for a week!

 

[Joe]

The "moral support" idea is interesting in this case. Commonly understood morality would dictate that you go with him to provide moral support. It would be "immoral" to not go and it would even be called "immoral" to say anything to him about the vaccine because you would be "interfering" and "going against the wishes of his mother" etc. But what about the morality of a fragile youth being poisoned in the name of "health"? Who answers for that and does anyone want to give their support to such a system?

 

[theos]

I empathize with your situation, JonnyRadar. I don't think I could go through with taking your student to get the shot.

I also don't mean to put any additional stress on you but I have a vent of my own. My friend, who was about 43 years old, was a type 1 diabetic who never took care of himself as far as diet was concerned. He became blind and had one leg amputated above the knee. He was also on dialysis 3x a week. He would tell me about his many physical issues and all the meds he was on but was not open to making any changes in his diet and was convinced that his doctor was doing right by him despite that fact that he'd only gotten sicker and sicker through the years. The last time I talked to him -- about 2 weeks ago -- he told me that he'd gotten the seasonal flu vaccine. Anyway, he died last Friday during dialysis and I can't help but to think that the vaccine pushed him over the edge. A mutual friend said that he was coughing up blood right before he died.

It makes me so incredibly angry because it didn't have to be! All the needless suffering that people are going through....

 

[Adaryn]

Since he's gonna get the shot anyway (whether you go with him or not), you can at least be there afterwards, to give him advice regarding Vitamin C and ALA, and other remedies which are recommended in case of swine flu or swine flu shot.
Do you know HIS opinion about the vaccine?