Buffers, Programs and "the Predator's Mind"

Bobo08 said:
I don't think the paragraph you quoted is relevant to your example.


You may be seeing this more clearly than I am.
I thought that the phrase: "...not able to appreciate the subtle shades of a situation or to tolerate ambiguity."
referred more to a state of mind that indicated the presence of an active infantile program which would help explain some of my early problems with 'understanding'.

During those times of stress, I felt that an infantile program may have been stimulated in me so that I was unable to discern what was really going on. Of course, I realized I was being punished and how I was expected to 'correct' my behavior, it's just that what I needed to know at those times was why? And a reasonable answer never came.
The link to 'ambiguity' was the fact that I couldn't stand 'not knowing' what was wrong, or why. In fact, the situation was 'head-bangingly' frustrating. Although I didn't go so far as to hurt myself, the thought of banging my head against the wall occurred to me many times.

Plus, as the 2nd of 5 kids, I seemed to be the only one with a problem with 'understanding' this method of 'running things', so I figured the problem was just as much with me as it was with the 'authoritarian'.
Thanks for the feedback.
 
Buddy said:
During those times of stress, I felt that an infantile program may have been stimulated in me so that I was unable to discern what was really going on. Of course, I realized I was being punished and how I was expected to 'correct' my behavior, it's just that what I needed to know at those times was why? And a reasonable answer never came.
The link to 'ambiguity' was the fact that I couldn't stand 'not knowing' what was wrong, or why. In fact, the situation was 'head-bangingly' frustrating. Although I didn't go so far as to hurt myself, the thought of banging my head against the wall occurred to me many times.

I think the issue here is that as a child, you assumed that the adults were always right, that you were the cause of any problem and any punishment. This is actually very common. A child cannot live without feeling that s/he is loved, and will repress any thought, memory, feeling to the contrary. That is why when you were punished, you thought the problem must be with you.

But now, you have grown up and are not dependent on your parents for their love anymore. You should recognize the emotional abuse for what it is. It could be very subtle and may take a long time to be recognized. But recognition and understanding of it is the first necessary step towards healing, or cleaning your machine. For that, the recommended books on narcissism are very valuable. Read them several times if you need to.
 
Bobo08 said:
I think the issue here is that as a child, you assumed that the adults were always right, that you were the cause of any problem and any punishment. This is actually very common. A child cannot live without feeling that s/he is loved, and will repress any thought, memory, feeling to the contrary. That is why when you were punished, you thought the problem must be with you.

But now, you have grown up and are not dependent on your parents for their love anymore. You should recognize the emotional abuse for what it is. It could be very subtle and may take a long time to be recognized. But recognition and understanding of it is the first necessary step towards healing, or cleaning your machine. For that, the recommended books on narcissism are very valuable. Read them several times if you need to.


I will take your reading recommendations seriously.
Though I don't claim to have worked through all the related emotional issues, I DO feel however, at least intellectually, that I already understand everything you said and I feel that I have achieved the recognition and understanding that you mentioned as first steps.

Re-referencing my original post in this thread, and re-reading Laura's presentation, I still do not quite see where I got de-railed.

Perhaps you're wanting me to see that my example is not relevant because I was on the receiving end of emotional abuse at the time? Or maybe that I would have been too young to be running an infantile program such as that, at that time? I'm not sure.

I'm thinking that, even as a young boy, I could have been running such a primitive defense mechanism even during an experience of emotional abuse,

and that's the question I am trying to answer.

Maybe the problem here, is that I got drawn into a literal identification of the concept Laura was explaining.
 
Buddy said:
Though I don't claim to have worked through all the related emotional issues, I DO feel however, at least intellectually, that I already understand everything you said and I feel that I have achieved the recognition and understanding that you mentioned as first steps.

Well, then emotional understanding is the next step. There is a huge difference between intellectual and emotional understanding. I sense that you are viewing the child you were just as another example like those in the books. You may have remembered and analysed it, assigned the blames accordingly. But it seems to be only intellectual. Have you felt what that child was feeling? What did he feel when he was told to shut up and not to ask "stupid" questions? Or when he was punished and thinking it must have been his fault? Remember that you were that child.

Re-referencing my original post in this thread, and re-reading Laura's presentation, I still do not quite see where I got de-railed.

Perhaps you're wanting me to see that my example is not relevant because I was on the receiving end of emotional abuse at the time? Or maybe that I would have been too young to be running an infantile program such as that, at that time? I'm not sure.

Yes, it is the former.

I'm thinking that, even as a young boy, I could have been running such a primitive defense mechanism even during an experience of emotional abuse,

Could be. But until you have been able to fully empathize with your inner child, I don't think it is a good idea to try to "blame" him for anything. It will only deepen any emotional repression you have.
 
Bobo08 said:
But it seems to be only intellectual. Have you felt what that child was feeling? What did he feel when he was told to shut up and not to ask "stupid" questions? Or when he was punished and thinking it must have been his fault? Remember that you were that child.

Bobo08 said:
...until you have been able to fully empathize with your inner child, I don't think it is a good idea to try to "blame" him for anything. It will only deepen any emotional repression you have.


Ok, I see where you're going with this, and so I see where I need to go as well. I have only recently realized the importance of integrating the intellectual and emotional centers along with with one's experiences as this relates to the Work.

Thanks for the insight. It seems like it's always better to have an objective viewer when emotions are involved.
 
And when buffers burn out.........predators will get on strict diet "A la Cart"
 
Thank you Laura. This one post has helped me answer a lot of questions I have about why we behave the way they do. This is definitely a re-read!
 
I've read this thread once or twice but never got it until today osit. Its like all the pieces of the puzzle where laying around and this thread helped me put it together into a new tool!
Laura said:
So, the clue that one is running an infantile program (that is, one inculcated in infancy) is that it reveals this "good / bad" categorization of everything, and that there is little flexibility in dealing with the reality of the moment. Under the influence of such a program, the individual is not able to appreciate the subtle shades of a situation or to tolerate ambiguity. This leads to distortions in perceptions since the external reality is filtered through - made to conform to - the rigid and primitive internal structure of an infant.

I was walking home from work (to the car) contemplating this, and it dawned on me that it could be applied to different aspects of self. In that different parts of you can become rigid. Driving home I noticed that other drivers passing at speed (perceived as aggressively by myself) triggered rigid thinking in my driving (i.e. being as aggressive). It then dawned on my that to have this triggered required a level of rigidity already for it to get past logic.
I'd observed a while ago that I seemed to be in a sort of constant (very mild) disassociated state (with degrees of severity depending on what was going on). I now see that this is a constant Primitive Defense Mechanism/rigid thinking. I can see it in pretty much every (or perhaps it is just every) thoughts/feeling/drive that passes through is filtered through this underlying rigidness, the rigidness can be obvious or subtle but its always there (shades of severity and varying degrees of how all encompassing the rigidity is, what is rigid and what is flexible).
For example I can see where I've been empathic towards others situations but very rigid in my reactions towards them. Or very rigid in my emotional filtering and open to many possibilities whilst dealing with them (which is unfortunately based on faulty/limited information).
The more I look the more I see it in different shades inside me.

So far I seem to be able to counter act it (if only slightly), although to think I can is perhaps more rigid thinking. I (oddly?) feel like a little kid again, in that I'm feeling something I haven't felt in long time. And that is awe of, well, everything! :)

So I wanted to ask, is this exactly (or is that to rigid?) what the following by Mme de Salzmann means? Is this what I am starting to see in myself? The lies and overestimations. The False image of self is because of this all pervasive rigidity of thought/emotion/filtering?

Mme de Salzmann said:
You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like” or “I don’t like,” you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself” blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat” and the “chaff.” No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like” and “I don’t like.” Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely” to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.
 
RedFox said:
So I wanted to ask, is this exactly (or is that to rigid?) what the following by Mme de Salzmann means? Is this what I am starting to see in myself? The lies and overestimations. The False image of self is because of this all pervasive rigidity of thought/emotion/filtering?

I may be wrong but I think this is an opening that may help to finally see the false personality for what it is.
I think the word rigidness is really apt because it shows how we/I can restrict something I see or feel directly into some pre-defined track built in the infancy where there is no chance to chose a direction, unless you change the course before it takes hold of you.

Each time I read Mme De Salzmann words it's like a shock :)
 
See my Devil

Bud, i hope, you are fighting hard.
I'm going through similar states and one afternoon suddenly knew for sure that i must climb down the ladder into my deepest Hell, where the Devil feeds. Meet him there and fight him. At his place where he is strongest. Down i climbed then and what i have found, will need not one post. This will be my confessionary diary.
Here i hurt and go:

In fervent prayers to the Divine Cosmic Mind: "Clear my eyes that I may See" i was hoping for results. Imagined blinding lights, brilliant philosophic diamonds sparkling as enlightening arrives and my spiritual eyesight is clearing to a beautiful image of Heaven, then finally healed, regenerated: gasping for air i behold a breathtaking sight. White clouds and angels and all knowledge... Something nice and wishful.

Never dared to think that my True Nature in the Pit of Hell, i sunk into, can be such a Crippling Sight.

First there was a plan to fight the Predator and i fought and willed it to go away. Then i acquired information about how to drive all of it or parts of it away and control it, subdue the Devil inside, become victorious over it. Yet piling good ideas atop of each other and thinking about how great a fight i will make is neat and: is one thing. Doing the bloody filth smeared wrestling with the Devil is another matter. To Fight the Devil i needed first to Touch it. To Touch and grab it, i needed to get Close to it. To get Close to the Devil i needed to Descend to My Personal Hell!!!

I never thought nearness to the Devil can be such a Crippling Sight. It is crushing. I learned fighting strategies, i know the results of my previous fights, because i smashed the Walls into the Devils Inner Sanctum with hard fights. I demolished its defenses, now i stand before my Devil, naked, my thoughts are swords, my knowledge is a shield.

Yet standing there with open wounds, wheezing as we eyeing each other, my Dark Side is he, my angelic side is ME, who is writing this diary. I want to get detached from this Filth, that calls itself the king, the lord, the commander, the torturer, others call it Lizard, the Predators Mind.

The battle is ongoing,
Darkness surrounds me
the only light emanates
from my good Being

between my strength-gathering Prayers i grimly compose a monologue designed to shatter the fake reality the Web that the Devil spun around me to suck out my life force and take my attention away from the real fight:

Illusions can satisfy,
Illusions can contain,
Illusions can be believed,
Illusions can be-lived,
Illusions can be eaten
Illusions can be breathed in

Illusion is my reality
the fake one i covet
i commit bestiality
to my Soul whom i should loveth

I blissfully kiss the Devil's Cheek
How i Yearn for you my love!
From Strong i become weak
i Faint as i Fall from Above.

My insides are turning out, as i behold the Devils sickening sight. It is hard to remain aware how impossible is the deed i am preparing myself to: the final fight. In possession of the knowledge gathering everything i have, everything i know. Will it be enough to beat the Evil inside me? The Battle must be ended now, in the coming weeks, shorts months.
I never dreamed how crippling will be even Maintain the State where i can

See my Devil!
 
Re: See my Devil

forge, if you haven't already read it, I recommend getting "Lost Christianity" by Jacob Needleman and reading it. I find it very helpful for me right now.
 
Re: See my Devil

forge said:
Yet standing there with open wounds, wheezing as we eyeing each other, my Dark Side is he, my angelic side is ME, who is writing this diary. I want to get detached from this Filth, that calls itself the king, the lord, the commander, the torturer, others call it Lizard, the Predators Mind.

Hi Forge,
I too am struggling with the predator's mind at present. Personally I have succeeded in deceiving myself quite a few times by categorizing what I like in myself as the "good guy" and what I do not like in me as the "bad guy". Some Gurdjieff comments from ISOTM seems very relevant in this context of self-deception which may happen. This may or may not apply to you but still maybe worth going through
[quote author=ISOTM]
A man must realize that he indeed consists of two men.
"One is the man he calls 'I' and whom others call 'Ouspensky,' 'Zakharov' or 'Petrov.' The other is the real he, the real I, which appears in his life only for very short moments and which can become firm and permanent only after a very lengthy period of work.
"So long as a man takes himself as one person he will never move from where he is. His work on himself starts from the moment when he begins to feel two men in himself. One is passive and the most it can do is to register or observe what is happening to it. The other, which calls itself 'I,' is active, and speaks of itself in the first person, is in reality only 'Ouspensky,' 'Petrov' or 'Zakharov.' "This is the first realization that a man can have. Having begun to think correctly he very soon sees that he is completely in the power of his 'Ouspensky,' 'Petrov,' or 'Zakharov.' No matter what he plans or what he intends to do or say, it is not 'he,' not 'I,' that will carry it out, do or say it, but his 'Ouspensky' 'Petrov,' or 'Zakharov,' and of course they will do or say it, not in the way 'I' would have done or said it, but in their own way with their own shade of meaning, and often this shade of meaning completely changes what 'I' wanted to do.
"From this point of view there is a very definite danger arising from the very first moment of self-observation. It is 'I' who begins self-observation, but it is immediately taken up and continued by 'Ouspensky,' 'Zakharov,' or 'Petrov.' But 'Ouspensky' 'Zakharov,' or 'Petrov' from the very first steps introduces a slight alteration into this self-observation, an alteration which seems to be quite unimportant but which in reality fundamentally alters the whole thing.
"Let us suppose, for example, that a man called Ivanov hears the description of this method of self-observation. He is told that a man must divide himself, 'he' or 'I' on one side and 'Ouspensky,' 'Tetrov,' or 'Zakharov' on the other side. And he divides himself literally as he hears it. 'This is I,' he says, 'and that is "Ouspensky," "Petrov," or "Zakharov."' He will never say 'Ivanov.' He finds that unpleasant, so he will inevitably use somebody else's surname or Christian name. Moreover he calls 'I' what he likes in himself or at any rate what he considers to be strong, while he calls 'Ouspensky,' 'Petrov,' or 'Zakharov' what he does not like or what he considers to be weak. On this basis he begins to reason in many ways about himself, quite wrongly of course from the very beginning, since he has already deceived himself in the most important point and has taken not his real self, that is, he has taken, not Ivanov, but the imaginary 'Ouspensky,' 'Petrov' or 'Zakharov.'
.................................
"But when a man understands his helplessness in the face of 'Ouspensky' his attitude towards himself and towards 'Ouspensky' in him ceases to be either indifferent or unconcerned.
"Self-observation becomes observation of 'Ouspensky' A man understands that he is not 'Ouspensky,' that 'Ouspensky' is nothing but the mask he wears, the part that he unconsciously plays and which unfortunately he cannot stop playing, a part which rules him and makes him do and say thousands of stupid things, thousands of things which he would never do or say himself.
"If he is sincere with himself he feels that he is in the power of 'Ouspensky' and at the same time he feels that he is not 'Ouspensky.'
"He begins to be afraid of 'Ouspensky,' begins to feel that he is his 'enemy.' No matter what he would like to do, everything is intercepted and altered by 'Ouspensky.'
.....
"On this level of self-observation a man must understand that his whole aim is to free himself from 'Ouspensky.' And since he cannot in fact free himself from 'Ouspensky,' because he is himself, he must therefore master 'Ouspensky' and make him do, not what the 'Ouspensky' of the given moment wants, but what he himself wants to do. From being the master, 'Ouspensky' must become the servant.
[/quote]

So it is with a lot of awareness and attention and external help can we go about sorting out what could constitute of the higher I and what is the predator's mind. Based on where I have slipped up in the past, I can say that I had consigned certain character traits like trying to be helpful to others as "good" labeling it as external consideration. In reality it was not - a bitter tearful realization showed me how I had been guilty of trying to determine the needs of others and had made things worse for everyone involved. There can be numerous such examples - much more complex and nuanced than what I wrote above. So nowadays, I try to look very deeply at the intent behind a specific action of mine stripping away the surface layers of reasoning and justifications and that is how I meet the predator's mind or the devil as you call it. What has been most shocking for me to realize is in practical terms how a lot of apparently altruistic motivations and positive character traits can be so easily hijacked to serve the needs of the dark side.

[quote author=forge]
I learned fighting strategies, i know the results of my previous fights, because i smashed the Walls into the Devils Inner Sanctum with hard fights. I demolished its defenses, now i stand before my Devil, naked, my thoughts are swords, my knowledge is a shield.
.....................
It is hard to remain aware how impossible is the deed i am preparing myself to: the final fight. In possession of the knowledge gathering everything i have, everything i know. Will it be enough to beat the Evil inside me? The Battle must be ended now, in the coming weeks, shorts months.
[/quote]
I can also feel that it is a grim battle that is being waged but instead of a decisive, frontal, all-out one it is more of a long-drawn, covert affair. I may be wrong but my current thinking is that the predator's mind cannot be defeated in a sort of final fight. I think its hold gets progressively weakened over a long series of skirmishes where awareness and unflinching sincerity towards the goal of waking up is used to expose its devious, cunning ways. The devil is not up for a fair fight so to say and will use all the weapons it can find. It is especially good at hijacking and using those weapons which we think we are using to vanquish it - Work ideas, altruistic thoughts etc.
Take all my comments fwiw - I am not absolutely sure of anything that I write. My heart goes out to you in this fight.
 
Re: See my Devil

Hi Forge
I read your post as it was posted , and I totally relate with what your going through. Of late I to have been /am in a continual battle with myself . Mainly because I have had a number of choices to make which have been difficult to make as once chosen it effects not only my life , but others lives to. We know that if a choice is not made , then by default it swings to the negative usually.

The battle has been having the right knowledge to know what the right decision is.Weighing everything up.

During this particular period , , I have observed very closely that ugliness which is my self importance. A reading of some quotes of Don Juan have shocked and helped at the same time.

I place some here.

Self-importance can't be fought with niceties.....Self-importance is our greatest enemy. Think about it--what weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellow men. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone.....Self-importance is not something simple and naive. On the one hand, it is the core of everything that is good in us, and on the other hand, the core of everything that is rotten. To get rid of the self-importance that is rotten requires a masterpiece of strategy.--Don Juan

The articulation point of everything seers do is stopping the internal dialogue. The internal dialogue is what keeps the assemblage point fixed to its original position.
Once silence is attained, everything is possible. You stop talking to yourself by willing it, and thus you set a new intent , a new command. Then your command becomes the Indescribable Force 's command.


Keep working Forge.

The breathing work will help im sure . I am only now being able to create a space for myself to do same.
 
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