Carl Jung's Secret Life: "The "Aryan Christ" - something rotten in Jungian psychology?

[Joe]

That's quite an inductive leap. Oh, it may not be necessary if you are content to be cattle and treated as such, I suppose. As I wrote in the Hyperdimensional Politics thread, I believe the directive is "evolve or perish."

That's why I wrote about a person's understanding of what is involved in "evolving". According to the Cs it's "simple and karmic lessons" of this reality. That's pretty far from 'understanding hyperdimensional realities'. What is it to 'understand' that anyway? There is nothing to apprehend there in any 3D way, save the odd UFO or Bigfoot sighting or fleeting perceptions of 'something else' and similar things.

Remember also what the Cs said about learning the lessons of THIS density rather than expecting ourselves to understand the reality of the next. As I said, if you place the bar too high for yourself, you'll end up repeatedly frustrated or flying into wishful thinking and illusion.

 

[fabric]

Along those lines, the thought of as above so below comes to mind. For example, what exactly is the mechanism by which animals (2D) go on to 3D? For them our level of awareness and understanding is an exponential jump, it’s a higher dimension of thinking. Is there a requirement for them to know that to keep from perishing? To me it doesn’t appear to be a prerequisite to evolution, either physical or spiritual. Our situation I think is similar as Joe says, learning our lessons in 3d. If we don’t, then I guess it repeats. But none of that matters all that much if you can’t at least get the simple things in life sorted out (and then maybe more complex things). Knowing about hyperdimensional aspects can help in some respect but in the end I think it can be more of a distraction or even an excuse to take the nihilistic route. If anything, doing the groundwork of really getting one’s act together and functioning in a healthy productive matter in society is the answer to ‘evolve or perish’ or at least a way forward. In fact, it seems like getting too deep into 'the unconscious' without the necessary preparatory work to be a decent person can lead to a devolution of being, like what is being revealed with Jung. I would say 4D might even count on it and be able to use it as a red herring.

 

[Gaby]

Looking back to past disintegrating states, I would say the worse one in my life was preceded by extensive reading of Jung related material. I went beyond the usual recommended reading and became somewhat of an obsession. Perhaps it was useful at the beginning, but at some point (years afterwards) I realized that it was detrimental. Having realized that, I couldn't entertain the idea of reading yet another Jung related book. In fact, I couldn't read any self-help book unless it was something like Character Disturbance, Ponerology or related material. Focusing on practical details of the "Criminal Mind" was more useful to the extent that I felt like I exhausted the "Top-Down" because I was laying on shaky ground. The "Bottom-Up" approach (e.g. neurofeedback) was the one thing I was sorely missing to strengthen "the ground".

I finished reading a book called "Consciousness - Anatomy of the Soul" the other day which talks about the Flatland analogy referred to in the Wave. I realized how important it was to see the unseen or these indirect signs of interference, so as to get an idea that one's life and work is being co-opted. It made me think back to my past disintegration phase and how it was preceded by Jung material. More than blaming Jung, I have only myself to blame for not taking responsibility and dwelling into these readings without critical thinking. Yet, the analogy is useful to raise up the bar of awareness that there are signs that all is not well in Flatland.

The book recapitulates the story of Flatland which is the 2D world created by Edwin A. Abbott in the 19th century. The main character in this novella is a Square. He lives in 2D world which is as flat as a piece of paper. The inhabitants are free to move about on, or in the surface, but without the power to raise above or to sink below the piece of paper. We feel the limitations of living in Flatland, while knowing that there really is a 3D world. It is easy for us to extrapolate from 2D to our 3D world by analogy. A Flatlander cannot see a 3D object, just the line edges of the other Flatlanders. In this story, a Sphere from Space-land approaches Flatland. What happens when the Sphere passes right through Flatland? An observant Flatlander sees a spot appear, then a circle getting bigger and bigger (till the equator of the Sphere intersects Flatland), then he sees the circle getting smaller and smaller till it disappears. As the Sphere passes through this 2D world, Mr Square can only see a circle getting bigger, then smaller. A Flatlander cannot see the Sphere but a Flatlander might get a clue by retaining the image of each circle in his memory and stacking these images in his conscious awareness. As the stacked discs/circles accumulate in his perceptual space, the Sphere gradually takes shape like a Honey Spoon in a Flatlander's mind, and he will have to "see" indirectly the higher dimensional object in his mind [as a Honey Spoon].

I think we're vulnerable of being co-opted through our blind spots, lack of awareness, Dunning Kruger phenomenon, etc. And those concepts might be enough for our working purpose. But awareness that there might be a higher density reality, helps to raise up the awareness bar quite a few notches.

One thing that helped me go through the worst phase of my disintegration was re-reading the Wave again. I felt dumb for missing out the obvious, in this case, something that I've read before but forgot.

Being aware of how short-minded you can be down in "Flatland" by virtue of our limited 3D perceptions makes you value the power of networking and thinking it twice before you teach gospel as if it is the ultimate truth.

I highly value Jordan Peterson's capability for articulating simple truths and basic understandings. However, I cringe when I hear him talk about politics. Thousands of people highly regard him and when he talks about geopolitics, people listen. He could easily be co-opted if he is not aware. I think that in his position, it would be better if he refrains himself from talking about geopolitics or involving himself with this subject if he doesn't have the time to network about it or get an informed opinion. On the other hand, it might be asking too much.

From this perspective, getting an idea that we live within another density that doesn't have our best interests at hand might be essential to our spiritual hygiene. The details might vary, and we can all benefit from everybody's work with the right attitude (e.g. Jungian material), but beware of wolves in sheep clothing. Those indirect signs of higher density interference might be easy to miss unless you're actively working to see the unseen.

Just some thoughts.

Edit: syntax and meaning.

 

[Joe]

We live in an infinitely creative universe and this is all there is? Is this the best I can do? I must really suck LOL. The Cassiopaeans talk of the Wave and big changes and faith in the process, and so forth and I find myself getting more skeptical with each passing day. For all I know, that's just what we want to believe. So I'm trying to be patient, but I'm getting a bit cantankerous about it

Well, what we are learning is that a lot of the content of the sessions - particularly the more abstract stuff - should never be taken literally, although It obviously presents lots of opportunity for imagination. The doesn't seem any way to avoid the requirement to 'wait and see' what (if anything) happens with that 'big stuff'. And you know, that's for the best because there is a LOT of work for us all to do in doing what we CAN do to get ourselves into the best possible shape.

 

[gnosisxsophia]

And yes, I think there are some very useful things in Jung because, after all, he was experiencing and describing hyperdimensional realities even if he didn't realize that was what it was. It's like everything, there is some good there because you have to wrap lies in truth to get others to swallow them.

I agree and have to say that some of Jung's ideas and particularly the communication of his experiences were a life raft in my 20's.

Speaking for myself here (also interested in hearing Laura's take!): ascribing certain influences to "archetypes of the collective unconscious" can be misleading if those influences - in whole or part - are in fact hyperdimensional (i.e. not just aspects of the mind).

I think your bang on Approaching Infinity.

As James Hillman identifies, Jung’s psychology unfortunately focused on the separations of Self (ego, anima, shadow etc.) yet managed to avoid the function of the 'whole', ultimately engendering a reductive, materialistic psychological landscape sans psyche, or soul.

Accurately pin pointing this critical oversight he also states-

"Can we not draw a lesson from history? If the practice of Jungian psychology continues the alchemical tradition, then we too - unless we are fully yellow - simply repeat its fate, falling prey to either physical scientism, spiritual esotericism, or the business of professionalism as princes of this world..."

And succinctly describing the importance of this third (of the four) stages -

“...during nigredo there is pain and ignorance; we suffer without the help of knowledge. During albedo the pain lifts, having been blessed by reflection and understanding. The yellow brings the pain of knowledge itself. The soul suffers its own understanding.”

To my mind echoing the raw insight of Laura's signature phrase.

He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

The Jungian oversight also plain to see in the promotion of abbreviated concepts (of 'The Work') such as this -

The Rosarium Philosophorum's Woodcut Carvings: An Esoteric and Kabbalistic Analysis - World Mysteries Blog

Which is interesting, because to quote Jung in his own words -

Four stages [of the alchemical] opus are distinguished, characterised by the original colours mentioned in Heraclitus: melanosis (blackening), leukosis (whitening), xanthosis (yellowing), and iosis (reddening)... Later about the fifteenth or 16th Century, the colours were reduced to three, and the xanthosis, otherwise called the citrinitas, gradually fell into disuse or was seldom mentioned... There were only three colours: black, white, and red.

The first main goal of the process... highly prized by many alchemists... is the silver or moon condition, which still has to be raised to the sun condition. The albedo [whitening], is so to speak, the daybreak, but not till the rubedo [reddening] is it sunrise. The transition to the rubedo is formed by the citrinitas [yellowing]...”

He was obviously well aware of the 'yellowing' component but, from appearances, was perhaps waylaid at the 'highly prized' silvering and all that comes with mastery of the lunar forces?

To continue the metaphor -

'Thus the soul gains a mastery over the lunar element within its being. This is the inner experience of the White Stone, the inner foundation in the soul for consciousness of the potentialities working in this lunar- feminine element which lies within us all, which shows us the hermaphrodite of the soul now reborn from its tomb, winged (indicating its spiritual development), and standing upon the crescent of the Moon.'

Adam Mclean 'A Commentary on the Rosarium philosophorum'




Which looks to be a very different 'product' to that forged in the suffering of the 'yellowing' -





The Whitened hermaphrodite, naked and somewhat insubstantial, floating above the ground and elevated upon a silver Moon.

In contrast the Yellowed Hermaphrodite stands fully formed and 'grounded', feet planted firmly upon the Earth, assumed to have assimilated both Lunar and Solar forces?

I don't know how true this is, and I haven't read Noll's book, but this may be another useful reference:
https://www.amazon.com/Lord-Underworld-Jung-Twentieth-Century/dp/0850303710

Thanks Chu,

Colin Wilson didn't miss much did he ?

'The Outsider' is next to me as I write this

Cheers

J

 

[Windmill knight]

We live in an infinitely creative universe and this is all there is? Is this the best I can do? I must really suck LOL. The Cassiopaeans talk of the Wave and big changes and faith in the process, and so forth and I find myself getting more skeptical with each passing day. For all I know, that's just what we want to believe. So I'm trying to be patient, but I'm getting a bit cantankerous about it...and that's about all of the humor I can squeeze out of this subject tonight.

Well, what we are learning is that a lot of the content of the sessions - particularly the more abstract stuff - should never be taken literally, although It obviously presents lots of opportunity for imagination. The doesn't seem any way to avoid the requirement to 'wait and see' what (if anything) happens with that 'big stuff'. And you know, that's for the best because there is a LOT of work for us all to do in doing what we CAN do to get ourselves into the best possible shape.

I agree with Joe. To give an example that has been discussed already in the forum, the idea of the Wave, rather than an epic event in which we'll suddenly get superpowers (sorry Seamas ), I now think refers to some significant change that will take several generations to complete - I'm talking about something like a thousand years or more - and while it's happening, every little change leading to it will seem perfectly natural to us, nothing miraculous about them. But a thousand years, in cosmic terms, is actually a very short time, so depending on what the final result is, future generations may look back to these times and think of them as 'the crossing of the realm border' or something important like that. So personally, I don't think we'll see any 'Judgement Day', but rather a long series of smaller, more or less dramatic events like the ones we've seen in recent years, that cumulatively will eventually result in a completely different reality in the distant future. This may involve earth and cosmic changes, wars, revolutions, social upheaval, technological and economic developments, changes in lifestyle and ideas, etc. I think of history and sci-fi to get an idea.

Remember the analogy of the bacteria or the ant going through a big event like a tsunami or the collapse of a building. Without the right perspective, would tiny creatures even be able to tell that a macro change is taking place?

The more time passes and I take stock of the reality of the human condition, the more I tend to "lower the bar" on what any of us can, or can be expected to, achieve in terms of 'spiritual awakening'. As 3,000 years of philosophy can be boiled down to: "do what's in front of you every day. Have an aim. Don't run away from lessons, but stand in the fire and learn from them. Don't sweat the big stuff, because you're really not that important".

Totally agree. I for one don't expect to become enlightened or a saint on this lifetime, and that's a relief.

 

[Laura]

Totally agree. I for one don't expect to become enlightened or a saint on this lifetime, and that's a relief.

It seems that this is exactly what Jung was promising his followers: to become gods in their lifetimes; IF, of course, they were of the proper Aryan heritage.

 

[luc]

I'm not very familiar with Jung, but like to share some thoughts on the influence of the psychoanalytic movement in general. If we assume for a moment that this movement - mainly through Freud and Jung - was inspired by "4D STS meddlers", this makes for some interesting connections.

First thing to notice is that the psychoanalytic movement seems to be closely related to the postmodernists and the '68 movement. Psychoanalysis was very 'hip' at the time in the liberation movement and among the postmodern intellectuals. (For example, Jacques Lacan - who was a driving force behind the French intellectuals - was a psychoanalyst.)

I think this can be partly explained by the fact that part of what used to "drive" the postmodern movement (and still does) was a justified dissatisfaction with 19th century positivist science (a mode of thinking that still dominates science today), because in its materialism and rigidity, it does completely away with the richness of human conscious experience, spirituality, higher aims, the wonder and miracles of life and so on. Postmodernism counters this positivist mindset with radical subjectivism: there is no objective truth, everything is just in our heads.

Psychoanalysis offered kind of a solution to this problem of dissatisfaction with science, because in its original Freudian form, it offered a pseudo-science that seemed to incorporate the richness of human conscious (subjective) experience into the scientific framework: the hope was to turn our rich psychological experience into a science. It wasn't as cold and rigid and positivist as behaviorism, and at the same time pretended to be "scientific" - so no need to give up the scientific mentality completely. I think this partly explains why the postmodernists were so much into it - no need to "turn religious", nothing "higher" needed, materialism can prevail, even though we mistrust science. This is all pretty contradictory, but logic isn't what drives these ideological developments.

Now, Freud was a materialist and anti-religion (see his book Civilization and Its Discontents). So in a sense, the psychoanalytic movement "contained" those dissatisfied with materialist science by offering them the illusion that you can maintain this materialist scientific mindset and yet still talk about the human experience in a prosaic way (Freud was also a superb writer, writing in a powerful, literary language). Again, nothing "higher", no religion needed. Materialism preserved, dissatisfaction with it "contained".

Enter Jung: With his "woo woo" approach, he alienated many people, driving them further into the Freudian corner/materialism in general. Others were attracted to this sort of thing with all the dangers that come with carelessly opening oneself up to higher realms. Maybe Jung, in a sense, "contained" those who otherwise would have gone the "bring together science and religion" route. It's also interesting to note that at least in Germany, Jung was accused by the left and many in the 60's revolution of being a Nazi - rightly or wrongly. This created further division and kicked out non-materialist thinking even further. Everything "mythological" was (and still is) seen by many as somewhat "Nazi". Even spirituality/religion itself! Anyway, I guess between Freud and Jung, many people got diverted/contained/neutralized.

There's another important aspect to the psychoanalytic movement. If you read Healing developmental trauma or Stout's work or Dabrowski or George Simons or Jordan Peterson, you can sense a deep desire by those people to help. They seem to care. They write in plain language and it's very down to earth. Whereas Freud and Jung were much more the "rumbling intellectuals" - what is actually in their work that really, truly helps people in therapy??

Then, there's the Marxist thread: in a way, Marxism and psychoanalysis combined to produce the 68 movement and what we now call postmodernism (see Freudo-Marxism). For example, there was the idea that the capitalist state suppresses the sexual drive of the "productive class", which supposedly leads to mass neurosis. The solution: sexual liberation - and that independently of all societal norms! The general idea by these Freudo-Marxist/postmodernist types was this: If communism is dead and we cannot change society via class struggle, we can change the individuals using psychoanalytic theory! Now that's a creepy concept!

So it seems the psychoanalytic school is an important thread in the fabric of our current reality - in the greater context of things, it has led to the liberal/gender/nihilism madness we witness today. It also set back effective forms of counseling and sound psychological knowledge rooted in objective experience for decades. It was a placebo for those dissatisfied with science. It helped suppress the marriage between science and religion/spirituality. It was used by authoritarian Marxist types to meddle with people's minds. It was used to justify the fight against sacred norms in society. It has shaped postmodern nihilism.

This is all very simplified and speculative of course. But maybe you could see all these threads woven through 19th/20th century intellectual life as a powerful master plan put together by some higher forces to produce the insanity and nihilism we see today.

 

[genero81]

The more time passes and I take stock of the reality of the human condition, the more I tend to "lower the bar" on what any of us can, or can be expected to, achieve in terms of 'spiritual awakening'. As 3,000 years of philosophy can be boiled down to: "do what's in front of you every day. Have an aim. Don't run away from lessons, but stand in the fire and learn from them. Don't sweat the big stuff, because you're really not that important".

Precisely my conclusions as well. And it's interesting that not running away from one's lessons leads to discovering that you're not that damn important!

And what is 'spiritual awakening' anyway. The only awakening I've done is to discover that life is not at all what I thought, (was led to believe) it was. And yet it's more of an adventure now than ever. Maybe what we discover is that it's all about continuously discovering.

 

[Laura]

I'm almost at the end of the book - ten pages or so left. I just finished the penultimate chapter and that is where a number of Jung's "star followers" abandoned him for Ouspensky and Gurdjieff.

Apparently, he got most of his early support from a daughter of John D. Rockefeller who was married to the head of International Harvester, McCormick. She spent millions (in today's money) on promoting Jung.

 

[Seamus]

I'm almost at the end of the book - ten pages or so left. I just finished the penultimate chapter and that is where a number of Jung's "star followers" abandoned him for Ouspensky and Gurdjieff.

Oh that's interesting!

 

[Joe]

And what is 'spiritual awakening' anyway. The only awakening I've done is to discover that life is not at all what I thought, (was led to believe) it was. And yet it's more of an adventure now than ever. Maybe what we discover is that it's all about continuously discovering

Pretty much, or continuously realizing how wrong we were about so many things. Divesting ourselves of those hard and fast illusory beliefs is about as close as we can get to "thinking in unlimited terms"

 

[Yas]

I'm almost at the end of the book - ten pages or so left. I just finished the penultimate chapter and that is where a number of Jung's "star followers" abandoned him for Ouspensky and Gurdjieff.

Oh that's interesting!

Yes, its very interesting. When I read Memories, Dreams and Reflections, I actually wondered if he might have had any influence in Gurdjieff or Ouspensky, because a lot of what he (or whoever wrote the book) says is similar in some ways.

I've been thinking about this thread and I will just add that this is yet another reminder of how much we need to sharpen our thinking.

I thought about the fact that Castaneda for example has a lot of weird stuff that most of us just discard or put aside, while taking in what we find to be more realistic and useful from his work. And it made me think of all these influential people that somehow were open to all these other realities. Gurdjieff, Castaneda, Jung, and also the group that made the RA material, for example... I think that maybe they were people who had a lot of potential and the opportunity to get in touch with deep understandings (and spread them), but some other (questionable in some cases) aspects of their personalities made them vulnerable to going astray and also, why not, being "attacked" with their own weaknesses...

So, I guess everyone can be co-opted by influences, whether they're hyperdimensional or simply "aspects of ourselves" (or both things), and the ability to think clearly is paramount if we set ourselves to find some truth and to protect ourselves and those around us. Also is networking. And I'm thinking that those "simple and karmic lessons" mentioned previously are also how we can grow stronger and more mature so that we can navigate these influences better. I can understand better why Laura has been saying that these readings may be the most important right now... and then, applying what we learn of course.

 

[Mikey]

Maybe what we discover is that it's all about continuously discovering.

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
(“Little Gidding,” Four Quartets, 1943)

 

[John G]

Remember also what the Cs said about learning the lessons of THIS density rather than expecting ourselves to understand the reality of the next. As I said, if you place the bar too high for yourself, you'll end up repeatedly frustrated or flying into wishful thinking and illusion.

Well, what we are learning is that a lot of the content of the sessions - particularly the more abstract stuff - should never be taken literally, although It obviously presents lots of opportunity for imagination. The doesn't seem any way to avoid the requirement to 'wait and see' what (if anything) happens with that 'big stuff'. And you know, that's for the best because there is a LOT of work for us all to do in doing what we CAN do to get ourselves into the best possible shape.

The stuff that can be taken literally seems to be the parts that can be backed up by the really good research you guys do (history, science, health, politics). To the extent abstract religious things are real, it's going to be in a science and history sense and that all reaches into health and politics too. It's like abstract session stuff gets real when it ends up as FOTCM/SOTT stuff. I'm quite happy for the "wait and see" time. I suspect before noticeable Bermuda triangle-like hyperdimensional physics starts ramping up (which will be perfectly natural science-wise), there's going to be those comets (which seem to have occurred in history and affected myths aka quite concrete definitely not abstract). Time for more research before then is fine with me. Do wish I was better at the getting myself into better shape part, but as you say, we have the next life/density to work on ourselves too.