Chief Feature

[cubbex]

I am aware of it.

I was trying to point to Jake that here we are working in that 4rth way but I see I was mistaken the concept with the 4rth man of mouravieff... but I still remember he says that the 4 man works on an usual life without that asolation that form part of the Fakyr or one ot the other three ways of work. So what's the real matter to distinguish what man you are was the intention of my question, if at the end, that doesn't change nothing really, you are still with problems to deal.

 

[obyvatel]

I was trying to point to Jake that here we are working in that 4rth way but I see I was mistaken the concept with the 4rth man of mouravieff... but I still remember he says that the 4 man works on an usual life without that asolation that form part of the Fakyr or one ot the other three ways of work. So what's the real matter to distinguish what man you are was the intention of my question, if at the end, that doesn't change nothing really, you are still with problems to deal.

I am not sure whether or not you are confusing Man 2 with the Way of the Monk which is said to require isolation from society (as do the ways of fakir and yogi). Distinguishing one's type (man 1,2,3) correctly from self-observation and networking could be beneficial in the 4th Way Work -- Mouravieff does mention different ways of working within the 4th Way for different types of man in Gnosis Book 2.

 

[cubbex]

All right. Thanks for it obyvatel. Need to make a deep study on those teachings.

 

[Jakesully]

First, I'd like to note that I've acknowledged to anart that previously, especially over the last few weeks, I was behaving impatiently, and took that opportunity to really examine some deeply ingrained programs.

Somewhat along that vein, I think I have more of a working knowledge of the process that is the Work. (Feel free to provide feedback/mirror)

That is, understanding both intellectually and emotionally what any given program is:
Intellectually: What event or series of events served as the root cause?
Emotionally: What kind of holding or movement pattern is in the body?

So that the body can then release the stuck energy and start to move in a healthier and more open manner.

Boris Mouravieff, in Gnosis I, writes of the film of any given person's life as representing the overall meaning or purpose of it, in addition to the karmic debt that person has taken on due to mistakes and entanglements with others in their film.

Now, is it the case that these karmic debts will always manifest in some form mentally (in the way Mouravieff uses the term mental) in the body? In other words, I suppose what I'm asking is whether these karmic debts ARE the programs?

And then subsequently, when speaking in terms of the Chief Feature, is it sometimes the case that some karmic debts can arise due to other karmic debts we're not aware of, in other words, piling programs on top of programs? Is this kind of what we're talking about in terms of the Chief Feature? That all the programs essentially "pile up" on top of this first or essential fault, and it is that Chief Fault that in some form determines how other programs may arise?

 

[Alada]

Now, is it the case that these karmic debts will always manifest in some form mentally (in the way Mouravieff uses the term mental) in the body? In other words, I suppose what I'm asking is whether these karmic debts ARE the programs?

And then subsequently, when speaking in terms of the Chief Feature, is it sometimes the case that some karmic debts can arise due to other karmic debts we're not aware of, in other words, piling programs on top of programs? Is this kind of what we're talking about in terms of the Chief Feature? That all the programs essentially "pile up" on top of this first or essential fault, and it is that Chief Fault that in some form determines how other programs may arise?

I don't know how Chief Feature relates to the idea of karmic debt, who can say really. It does sound reasonable that some qualities carry over from one life to the next, but how they manifest might not be so straight forward. The experiences of one life many produce the opposite as the Chief Feature of the next life for example, to hazard a guess.

In terms of programs piling on programs, yes I think you could say our Chief Feature 'flavors' many things about us the same way. It doesn't just have to relate to the body only, or to psychological / emotional qualities only, its a combination of everything. So its not just one main program that runs and that's your Chief Feature, but how any program though very different, can have a similar 'taste'.

 

[cubbex]

YEEEEEEEESSSSS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have found my Chief Feature haha, or that's what I believe, it is even present in this thread.

Try to impose my ideas, or ideals without tolerance.

I have just read the comments and did before of even end to read the tips, asked to some people that knows me what was my error as a person. I have read this thread and my attitude against Jake, and read another threads and I do the same every time, hell, what a bad instructor I would be.

My tolerance and patience with others, mmm, why I nedeed so much time to see it, could it be a deep deep program??? or my real chief feature.

I knew it was similar to the right man syndrome, but not as that powerfull, not as that manifested because if it was that, that would be partially destroyed, if not I couldn't be here, that syndrome was what took me out of this forum long ago without making drama of course, but ... I don't know, I had kind of clues or signs but never trusted, I tought I was doing right and was teaching others haha.

 

[Bar Kochba]

Well, I can speculate on my Chief Feature, but I won't go so far as to pin it down specifically. I don't trust myself to be honest enough. That's why I began this topic, to perhaps communicate with person(s) who would be best suited to show me my own Chief Feature. Obviously, Gurdjieff was able to see it in the people around him, but his students less so. It seems very tricky. So, to follow suit with everyone else, I will continue to speculate on my own to perhaps figure it out on my own eventually.

 

[Jakesully]

YEEEEEEEESSSSS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have found my Chief Feature haha, or that's what I believe, it is even present in this thread.

Try to impose my ideas, or ideals without tolerance.

I have just read the comments and did before of even end to read the tips, asked to some people that knows me what was my error as a person. I have read this thread and my attitude against Jake, and read another threads and I do the same every time, hell, what a bad instructor I would be.

My tolerance and patience with others, mmm, why I nedeed so much time to see it, could it be a deep deep program??? or my real chief feature.

I knew it was similar to the right man syndrome, but not as that powerfull, not as that manifested because if it was that, that would be partially destroyed, if not I couldn't be here, that syndrome was what took me out of this forum long ago without making drama of course, but ... I don't know, I had kind of clues or signs but never trusted, I tought I was doing right and was teaching others haha.

I think what you've got there is one of "its" coping mechanisms. You may want to go deeper by asking, "Why does 'it' want to impose its ideas?"

Remember that this is an actual trauma that probably happened early in life, a hurt perception or perception of wrong/hurtful action/inaction. Chief Feature generally has to do with action or perception. Two core issues, but one runs deepest. Try to figure out which one. All programs are deep. Chief Feature is at the core.

So, isolate & identify coping mechanisms. List them. Give them a voice in order to understand them. What is "it" actually saying? Attempt to experience the emotions associated with each program fully. Eiriu Eolas, especially pipe breathing, helps. When you accomplish this in regards to any program, it will open up the opportunity to release the program/trauma.

And also attempt to work out loud, here on the forum. It's true that it's almost impossible to see your own Chief Feature. If you could, and see how all of its coping mechanisms manifest, then you could release it. So the next best option is to just let "it" be and make "its" mistakes in the view of others, so others can observe and provide a mirror. The Swamp is a good place for this.

And don't sweat it. I've made all the mistakes you've mentioned, and probably more. All there is is lessons. :)

 

[Jakesully]

Well, I can speculate on my Chief Feature, but I won't go so far as to pin it down specifically. I don't trust myself to be honest enough. That's why I began this topic, to perhaps communicate with person(s) who would be best suited to show me my own Chief Feature. Obviously, Gurdjieff was able to see it in the people around him, but his studens less so. It seems very tricky. So, to follow suit with everyone else, I will continue to speculate on my own to perhaps figure it out on my own eventually.

Take a stab in the dark. What is "it", the mind of the predator, really saying? Free association can help, to let "it" think out loud so others can observe.

 

[Ollie]

YEEEEEEEESSSSS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have found my Chief Feature haha, or that's what I believe, it is even present in this thread.

Try to impose my ideas, or ideals without tolerance.

I have just read the comments and did before of even end to read the tips, asked to some people that knows me what was my error as a person. I have read this thread and my attitude against Jake, and read another threads and I do the same every time, hell, what a bad instructor I would be.

My tolerance and patience with others, mmm, why I nedeed so much time to see it, could it be a deep deep program??? or my real chief feature.

I knew it was similar to the right man syndrome, but not as that powerfull, not as that manifested because if it was that, that would be partially destroyed, if not I couldn't be here, that syndrome was what took me out of this forum long ago without making drama of course, but ... I don't know, I had kind of clues or signs but never trusted, I tought I was doing right and was teaching others haha.

I think what you've got there is one of "its" coping mechanisms. You may want to go deeper by asking, "Why does 'it' want to impose its ideas?"

Remember that this is an actual trauma that probably happened early in life, a hurt perception or perception of wrong/hurtful action/inaction. Chief Feature generally has to do with action or perception. Two core issues, but one runs deepest. Try to figure out which one. All programs are deep. Chief Feature is at the core.

So, isolate & identify coping mechanisms. List them. Give them a voice in order to understand them. What is "it" actually saying? Attempt to experience the emotions associated with each program fully. Eiriu Eolas, especially pipe breathing, helps. When you accomplish this in regards to any program, it will open up the opportunity to release the program/trauma.

And also attempt to work out loud, here on the forum. It's true that it's almost impossible to see your own Chief Feature. If you could, and see how all of its coping mechanisms manifest, then you could release it. So the next best option is to just let "it" be and make "its" mistakes in the view of others, so others can observe and provide a mirror. The Swamp is a good place for this.

And don't sweat it. I've made all the mistakes you've mentioned, and probably more. All there is is lessons. :)

Hi Brunauld,

Jakesully offers some good advice.

It is almost impossible to determine your Chief Feature yourself, as it is something that manifests always in everything and therefore determines each and every outcome of your life. :) It is unknown to you.

Think about the following (imbedded) questions. What is the X, Y, Z, and W for "Try to impose my ideas, or ideals without tolerance."

For example, in my case, what others called X (e.g., serious, quiet - hiding self, on the surface only), I was calling Y (professional, keeping myself to myself), but basically I had no name for it, in fact, what I thought I was doing was Z (preparing, avoiding social chatter). In fact, what I was really doing was W (seeking internal perfection before revealing myself). X was the manifestation!

So, overall, for me, it came out as 'Procrastination'. But, as you can see, what I thought I was doing and how it manifested were totally different. It all came from straight feedback from close friends. That was my start point. Remember, Chief Feature is a mechanical reaction that 'marches ahead of you in life', manifesting itself to others, always in everything.

This may help, or not.

 

[cubbex]

Thanks for all. I didn't by myself, and it was not in a moment of course I was kind of feeling this, and I asked to some persons that know me well.

Whatever, I am going to read all about this chief feature and see what's up.

So, isolate & identify coping mechanisms. List them. Give them a voice in order to understand them. What is "it" actually saying? Attempt to experience the emotions associated with each program fully. Eiriu Eolas, especially pipe breathing, helps. When you accomplish this in regards to any program, it will open up the opportunity to release the program/trauma.

Now that you tell me this and now that I think it, this is actually what I do with EE hehe, when I discovered its manifestations and power I thought it was better having an aim.

I have made a list about some coping mechanisms and there are a lot!

So, overall, for me, it came out as 'Procrastination'. But, as you can see, what I thought I was doing and how it manifested were totally different. It all came from straight feedback from close friends. That was my start point. Remember, Chief Feature is a mechanical reaction that 'marches ahead of you in life', manifesting itself to others, always in everything.

This may help, or not.

This is going to cost, I don't have so much close friends that really know me. But all, almost all with who I have confidence (not being close friends) say I am so critical, like some Dr. House, and that sometimes well, I just do not shut up my mouth, and do not have tolerance, that's true, and maybe that's not really my chief feature, but I think it's a good beginning. And there are others that do not really say something coherent. This is just hard, where may I take comments ?? maybe from this forum. This is fun, is like reconstructing some puzzle.

 

[Breo]

[...]

Some indications of what Chief Feature is.
Pattern of one’s essential wishes – motives – Chief Feature is mechanical –
20 chief features can be reduced to combinations of 3 – Chief Feature is of the essence, in the emotions – Is not real, it is imaginary –
In looking for your Chief Feature don’t follow type don’t follow whim –
Write a description of yourself as if of another person.
Chief Feature gives the illusion of Freedom Absence of choice of wishes equals Freedom
We might live in a palace – but we live in one room – the kitchen. Range so small – based on five things – Five interests controlling our actions –

Greed Self Pride Lying Fear Sex [my emphasis]

Chief Feature one or combination of these – Take long list and reduce to this –
Find it – is a short cut to consciousness – Once found use it consciously -

Thank you for this very interesting thread. It teaches me a lot about the "how to" of self observation and to be much more specific and focused.

Did I get this right, that all Chief Features can be reduced to the 5 motives named above, that all Chief Features are rooted in one or a combination of these aspects of the predators mind, meaning that I will find behind my lists, one or a combination of these emotions, that produce my Chief Feature?

E.g. If I suspect that my Chief Feature could be "hidden anger/rage about not being seen" would it consist of Self Pride and Fear and Lying to myself?

And: If the Chief Feature is rooted in trauma/narcissistic wounding, as also hinted in this thread, does this mean that fear always will be an underlaying aspect of my Chief Feature? Plus Lying, as a general feature of the automate? Is this relevant for self observation or just abstract speculations?

 

[Ollie]

Following a thread on the EE teacher’s ‘forum’, I’ve spent the last three weeks or so doing battle with my Chief Feature/Predator’s Mind. A case of even more (daily, conscious) self-vigilance, of deliberate self-observation through the whole day, of questioning what thoughts, ideas, sensations, and feeling are arising – and asking myself ‘What are the motivations behind them?’. ‘How might they affect my future?’ ‘What is all this internal dialogue, the expression of the Predator’s Mind, what is it all about?’

It’s timely that Breo just re-quoted my earlier post, and the quote from Jane Heap:
‘We might live in a palace – but we live in one room – the kitchen. Range so small – based on five things – Five interests controlling our actions –

Greed Self Pride Lying Fear Sex [my emphasis]

Chief Feature one or combination of these – Take long list and reduce to this –
Find it – is a short cut to consciousness – Once found use it consciously –‘

The underlying pattern that I’ve found from ‘Procrastination’: dissociation, impatience, self-importance (perfectionism), worry (fear), and self-sabotage – the primary interests controlling my actions are FEAR and SELF PRIDE. Primarily the former.

Impatience is fear of loss; dissociation is fear of loss of hidden self (Predator’s Mind), of fear of loss remembering the neo-natal trauma experience; (also, self-pride, as in imaginary conversations – both of past events and anticipated future ones; procrastination is fear of loss hidden self – the discovery of the Predator’s Mind.

At long last I now know what to work on, to use the knowledge, consciously.

And, quoting YODA’s wisdom: ‘The fear of loss is a path to the dark side. Death is a natural part of life’ (and a recent event in my life has confirmed the latter). Train self to let go of everything that you fear to lose.’

There is another quote, whose source escapes me: ‘We lost our fears and found ourselves.’

So, some progress made, and a lot more work to DO in overcoming, silencing, the Predator’s Mind, denying its expression: of letting go of everything that I fear to lose – especially the constant expressions of the Predator’s Mind – to regain control, silence and living in the ever-present now.

 

[sairie]

Knowing one's "chief feature"

I am trying to know more about and fully understand more about what G.I. Gurdjieff calls a "chief feature" in relation to self remembering. I have done a search within the forum and so far have found nothing. If anyone can direct me to where there is some thread/posting that has already been made by another that would help in my 'quest' for gaining information/knowledge so that I can gain full understanding, I'd welcome the guided direction toward it.

As I have been reading from the book, THE GURDJIEFF WORK by Kathleen Riordan Speeth, on page 79. G.I.G. says: "Yet although there are many "I's" each person has one central attribute, a pillar on which the personality structure rests or around which it could be said to revolve. This "chief feature" is almost always invisible to one's self but other people can often give accurate enough information about it. ... nicknames are often telling clues to chief features." he then goes onto say that, "The pain of discovering your chief defect is like a shock of receiving a slap in the face. A man must fine in himself the strength not to run away from his pain, but boldly to turn the other cheek; that is to listen and accept further truth about himself." ... "There cannot be proper outward considering while a man is seated in his chief feature"


Questions I have so far come up with that I am unable to answer are:

Can this information concerning what one's "chief features" are, be gotten from the forum members input or is it primarily or best to be gotten/received from face to face interactions from others who are aware and actively engaged in self work?

How are "nicknames" telling clues to chief features in a person?

How does it relate to self remembering?

Does it relate also to self observation and in what way(s)?

Are there exercises one alone can do to gain knowledge of what their chief feature is ?

If anyone has any thoughts or information to share and help me gain knowledge and a full understanding, I'd greatly welcome the assistance!

Thank you!

 

[riclapaz]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

Hi NinaMosi, I'm in the same boat as you, I have some gaps in some concepts of the works of Gurdjieff, I'm in the process of catching up with several threads on these issues, I'll try to give my thoughts on some questions you has made:

Can this information concerning what one's "chief features" are, be gotten from the forum members input or is it primarily or best to be gotten/received from face to face interactions from others who are aware and actively engaged in self work?

I think this forum is a mirror, and as such, its interventions will be a reflection of your interior, I understand when G talks about "principal caracterisitica" can be understood that in every person there is a group of selves, who plays the dominant role who would take control of most of the actions perform people, this until you start working on yourself, and to prepare the ground for the real me.

How are "nicknames" telling clues to chief features in a person?

Nicknames can serve, in some cases, to realize in some ways what other people are watching you, but here it is important context, intention and whoever is saying what.

How does it relate to self remembering?

Well, I understand that remembering is to be aware of present, of what is around you, those little moments when the real self takes control of the machine, and false personality would take the secundary role, and that the real self take the lead role takes a lot of work in itself, self-observation, see the objective reality
(get rid of some buffers) discover and control programs, energy saving for the development of self etc.

Does it relate also to self observation and in what way(s)?

Self-observation see it as little mental photographs, you will help discover the way in which you act or react to certain situations that after a time got here practiced to control these reactions, to know you a little better, and this would lead to greater control over the machine.

Are there exercises one alone can do to gain knowledge of what their chief feature is ?

Anyone can help here a little more, I do not clearly exercises in my case something that helps me in difficult situations, is to remember mentally who is acting, false personality or the real me, this making the assumption that there this already, so I makes calm, clear thoughts, I can stop the cyclical thoughts and act in a better way, I think it will take in the future, after being constantly practicing, to manage to be more conscious.

If anyone has any thoughts or information to share and help me gain knowledge and a full understanding, I'd greatly welcome the assistance!

Thank you!

Here are two threads with very interesting information about the following topics:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,8182.0.html
Auto Remembering


https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22.0.html
Self-Observation, Inner Talking & Work Instrument.


I hope to help a bit.