Chief Feature

[sairie]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

Thank you riclapaz, I will read the two threads you have mentioned on auto remembering and Self-Observation, Inner Talking & Work Instrument. And hopefully have more to reply to you then.

Again thank you for reading and sharing with me!!!

 

[Gawan]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

In search of the miraculous you can read the following (Chapter eleven):

"Every man has a certain feature in his character which is central. It is like an axle round which all his 'false personality' revolves. Every man's personal work must consist in struggling against this chief fault. This explains why there can be no general rules of work and why all systems that attempt to evolve such rules either lead to nothing or cause harm. How can there be general rules? What is useful for one is harmful for another. One man talks too much; he must learn to keep silent. Another man is silent when he ought to talk and he must learn to talk; and so it is always and in everything. General rules for the work of groups refer to everyone. Personal directions can only be individual. In this connection again a man cannot find his own chief feature, his chief fault, by himself. This is practically a law. The teacher has to point out this feature to him and show him how to fight against it. No one else but the teacher can do this."

I think for the word teacher you could use in our case network, because other people can see us much more clearly than we can see ourselves alone since we are creating constantly narratives and justifications for our actions. Maybe this chief so called chief feature is hidden behind several programs and needs to peeled off like an onion, but again for an outside person it maybe isn't that hidden at all :).

 

[sairie]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

Thank you Gawan!!

In search of the miraculous you can read the following (Chapter eleven):

"Every man has a certain feature in his character which is central. It is like an axle round which all his 'false personality' revolves. Every man's personal work must consist in struggling against this chief fault. This explains why there can be no general rules of work and why all systems that attempt to evolve such rules either lead to nothing or cause harm. How can there be general rules? What is useful for one is harmful for another. One man talks too much; he must learn to keep silent. Another man is silent when he ought to talk and he must learn to talk; and so it is always and in everything. General rules for the work of groups refer to everyone. Personal directions can only be individual. In this connection again a man cannot find his own chief feature, his chief fault, by himself. This is practically a law. The teacher has to point out this feature to him and show him how to fight against it. No one else but the teacher can do this."

I'll definitely be taking this book along with me to reread this chapter on the way down and up from this Saturday's outing!

I think for the word teacher you could use in our case network, because other people can see us much more clearly than we can see ourselves alone since we are creating constantly narratives and justifications for our actions. Maybe this chief so called chief feature is hidden behind several programs and needs to peeled off like an onion, but again for an outside person it maybe isn't that hidden at all :).
[/quote]

But to speak a bit now, perhaps recalling what others have said about one's self, but then if they are a person that is pathological in some way, then to not take into consideration what they have said about you. For these things that others say to you could be a possible program to work which could lead to the discovery of one's chief feature?

So to see through our words written, can this be as accurate as in speaking to another or others face to face or a bit less to the what can be seen of another?

Programs such as unhealthy expressions of anger, jealousy, lack of self discipline, a hunger for physical intimacy ie. sex, negativism, defeatism, escapism, delayism, cynicism, self pity or laziness/procrastination?

It seems that it might be not only easier but less time consuming if another or others were to be done face to face in person. But this might be telling something, if NinaMosi is too eager to find out her 'chief feature' instead of the slow process by sharing through posting on the forum, that this may be a program I have to work on?

Further wondering...

But then if it is plain that one does not have the strength to not run away from what could cause one pain, listening to what seems that only another or others can objectively and accurately give, further truth about one's self. Then must they first work on building the strength needed? How would one know if they have the strength to not run away from hearing, listening and accepting further objective truth about themselves? How does one go about building it?

Does NinaMosi have the strength? Is NinaMosi complicating things by asking too many questions, or is she over thinking things, is she making things more difficult to understand?

 

[riclapaz]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

I think you are asking questions very interesting, is looking to understand more this reality and our interaction with it, it could be that you are talking about the word will, in another thread had put this quote, I hope it will help a little:

"So that when a man attains will on the fourth way he can make use of it because he has acquired control of all his bodily, emotional, and intellectual functions.

"In order to understand the interrelation of truth and falsehood in life a man must understand falsehood in himself, the constant incessant lies he tells himself. "These lies are created by 'buffers' In order to destroy the lies in oneself as well as lies told unconsciously to others, 'buffers' must be destroyed. But then a man cannot live without 'buffers.' 'Buffers' automatically control a man's actions, words, thoughts, and feelings.
Consequently, if a man begins to destroy 'buffers' within himself he must at the same time develop a will. And as will cannot be created to order in a short space of time a man may be left with 'buffers' demolished and with a will that is not as yet sufficiently strengthened. The only chance he has during this period is to be controlled by another will which has already been strengthened. "This is why in school work, which includes the destruction of 'buffers,' a man must be ready to obey another man's will so long as his own will is not yet fully developed. Usually this subordination to another man's will is studied before anything else. I use the word 'studied' because a man must understand why such obedience is necessary and he must learn to obey. The latter is not at all easy. A man beginning the work of self-study with the object of attaining control over himself is accustomed to believe in his own decisions.

 

[skycsil]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

I think you are asking questions very interesting, is looking to understand more this reality and our interaction with it, it could be that you are talking about the word will, in another thread had put this quote, I hope it will help a little:

"So that when a man attains will on the fourth way he can make use of it because he has acquired control of all his bodily, emotional, and intellectual functions.

"In order to understand the interrelation of truth and falsehood in life a man must understand falsehood in himself, the constant incessant lies he tells himself. "These lies are created by 'buffers' In order to destroy the lies in oneself as well as lies told unconsciously to others, 'buffers' must be destroyed. But then a man cannot live without 'buffers.' 'Buffers' automatically control a man's actions, words, thoughts, and feelings.
Consequently, if a man begins to destroy 'buffers' within himself he must at the same time develop a will. And as will cannot be created to order in a short space of time a man may be left with 'buffers' demolished and with a will that is not as yet sufficiently strengthened. The only chance he has during this period is to be controlled by another will which has already been strengthened. "This is why in school work, which includes the destruction of 'buffers,' a man must be ready to obey another man's will so long as his own will is not yet fully developed. Usually this subordination to another man's will is studied before anything else. I use the word 'studied' because a man must understand why such obedience is necessary and he must learn to obey. The latter is not at all easy. A man beginning the work of self-study with the object of attaining control over himself is accustomed to believe in his own decisions.

An example of this can be seen in Castaneda's books and how Don Juan interacts with him, OSIT. In the first books Carlo's will is weak, so he has to "obey", just do things he deems as silly, unnecessary or plain dangerous, but that's how his own will is gradually strenghtened.

 

[BHelmet]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

I think it would be difficult to discern unless one was in the presence of the being in question. It is so easy to disguise ourselves and to fool ourselves and others. Even more so when just writing words in a box on a screen. I don't mean so much like intentionally being deceitful, but given the fact that so many people don't know themselves, or they act like they don't, it would seem an outside observer who is at a higher level would be necessary.

How many people are nothing like how their voice sounds? I used to talk on the phone extensively for work to people I never met in person but developed relationships with over the years. But when I would get to meet them in person, it was almost always totally different than they sounded. Ever chat on the internet and then meet someone? There is a 'disconnect' there.

Think of your closest friends and loved ones. Can you name their chief feature? If so, how long did it take to recognize it? Are you sure you got it right? I think this is a very difficult thing to do for a lot of reasons.

 

[Laura]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

I think it would be difficult to discern unless one was in the presence of the being in question. It is so easy to disguise ourselves and to fool ourselves and others. Even more so when just writing words in a box on a screen. I don't mean so much like intentionally being deceitful, but given the fact that so many people don't know themselves, or they act like they don't, it would seem an outside observer who is at a higher level would be necessary.

Exactly. There are many individuals here on the forum who turn out to NOT be as the represent themselves in writing and without direct contact. And it is much more than just not have non-verbal signals such as tone of voice or facial expression.

Interestingly, when people come here to visit for one reason or another, if they are alone in their visit or with a very small group, there is something that happens to them that exposes who they really are. In some cases, it can take awhile especially if one is dealing with pathology and not just conscious deception/game playing. But inevitably, the masks come off and the individual is SEEN.

How many people are nothing like how their voice sounds? I used to talk on the phone extensively for work to people I never met in person but developed relationships with over the years. But when I would get to meet them in person, it was almost always totally different than they sounded. Ever chat on the internet and then meet someone? There is a 'disconnect' there.

Think of your closest friends and loved ones. Can you name their chief feature? If so, how long did it take to recognize it? Are you sure you got it right? I think this is a very difficult thing to do for a lot of reasons.

Yes indeed! It seems to take a network of observers, with face to face interactions, to suss out the deceivers. Those who are sincere have nothing to worry about though certainly, their issues come to the surface rather quickly.

BUT, to some extent, a person who interacts MOSTLY through writing can also be "seen" under the right circumstances, especially if they write one thing to one person and something else to another, and the two individuals happen to compare notes.

 

[MusicMan]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

I am trying to know more about and fully understand more about what G.I. Gurdjieff calls a "chief feature" in relation to self remembering. I have done a search within the forum and so far have found nothing. If anyone can direct me to where there is some thread/posting that has already been made by another that would help in my 'quest' for gaining information/knowledge so that I can gain full understanding, I'd welcome the guided direction toward it.

As I have been reading from the book, THE GURDJIEFF WORK by Kathleen Riordan Speeth, on page 79. G.I.G. says: "Yet although there are many "I's" each person has one central attribute, a pillar on which the personality structure rests or around which it could be said to revolve. This "chief feature" is almost always invisible to one's self but other people can often give accurate enough information about it. ... nicknames are often telling clues to chief features." he then goes onto say that, "The pain of discovering your chief defect is like a shock of receiving a slap in the face. A man must fine in himself the strength not to run away from his pain, but boldly to turn the other cheek; that is to listen and accept further truth about himself." ... "There cannot be proper outward considering while a man is seated in his chief feature"


Questions I have so far come up with that I am unable to answer are:

Can this information concerning what one's "chief features" are, be gotten from the forum members input or is it primarily or best to be gotten/received from face to face interactions from others who are aware and actively engaged in self work?

How are "nicknames" telling clues to chief features in a person?

How does it relate to self remembering?

Does it relate also to self observation and in what way(s)?

Are there exercises one alone can do to gain knowledge of what their chief feature is ?

If anyone has any thoughts or information to share and help me gain knowledge and a full understanding, I'd greatly welcome the assistance!

Thank you!

Hello NinaMosi, I'll put it another way: (from a sailor's point of view)

When a boat (small ship's boat) is in danger of sinking, the coxswain will order the crew out of the boat -over the side. His main job is to save the boat. Crew are expendable.
They can climb back in when the danger is over.

This has happened to me twice; once in Sydney harbour, when a boat I was in began to take water, and it needed bailing out, and we were told to get out to reduce the weight, or make the boat more buoyant.
The other time was when we were traversing the inlet through the reef on an island atoll, and the ocean swell was threatening to tip the boat. Never mind the sharks! Anyway, I survived to tell the tale.

So your main "I" is the coxswain, the one really in charge of your 'self'.
The little "i"'s are the crew.
If 'The Wave' is coming, the main 'self' will take charge, and all the little 'i's will have to fend for themselves.

As for 'nicknames', that would need a whole new post.

 

[mrelectric91]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

Once we recognize the chief feature do we consciously act to overcome e.g. initiating a conversation if I am shy or do you stick to self remembering to really capture how the dynamic feature plays out in reality?

 

[Laura]

Re: Knowing one's "chief feature"

Hello NinaMosi, I'll put it another way: (from a sailor's point of view)

When a boat (small ship's boat) is in danger of sinking, the coxswain will order the crew out of the boat -over the side. His main job is to save the boat. Crew are expendable.
They can climb back in when the danger is over.

This has happened to me twice; once in Sydney harbour, when a boat I was in began to take water, and it needed bailing out, and we were told to get out to reduce the weight, or make the boat more buoyant.
The other time was when we were traversing the inlet through the reef on an island atoll, and the ocean swell was threatening to tip the boat. Never mind the sharks! Anyway, I survived to tell the tale.

So your main "I" is the coxswain, the one really in charge of your 'self'.
The little "i"'s are the crew.
If 'The Wave' is coming, the main 'self' will take charge, and all the little 'i's will have to fend for themselves.

As for 'nicknames', that would need a whole new post.

Good analogy.

In other words, what mode do you go into when threatened?

Gurdjieff spoke of a central feature in man’s psychology around which his entire falsehood revolved. “One man talks too much; he must learn to keep silent,” he said. “Another man is silent when he ought to talk.” This chief feature is custom tailored to each, which makes work on chief feature a personal and practical endeavor.

There is another thread on this topic and I'll merge the two so you might want to begin reading from the beginning.

 

[Can Won]

Thank you and very well put MusicMan :).

I've found descriptions such as that are extremely beneficial when trying to understand or explain something in the simplest terms, from which one is able to open the door to a far deeper understanding of the topic.

Of a similar note, my brother and I were discussing the "broken mirror" and whether it also alluded to the representation of a fragmented individual, but that this had been corrupted over the course of history.
There are numerous interpretations, but we felt that it was certainly useful to use when attempting to paint the picture of the many i's.

(We did wonder though, whether the "7" years was somehow referring to the 7 densities and working your way back to source to get the clear picture? It was getting late though and we left it at that for something to mull over :))