Civil War in Ukraine: Western Empire vs Russia

[Joe]

I've been thinking about how these shootings e.g. in Mariupol might have been orchestrated. One thing that has been puzzling me is: as is shown in some of the videos, there are "citizens" who shoot (with small hand guns) at the pro-Kiev troops. Now, if these are provocateurs, why would they risk their lives? I mean, they themselves could easily be hit in the crossfire.

I could be totally off, but here's my theory: there are some reports that snipers were seen at the recent events in Mariupol. What if some, or most of the soldiers on the street only had orders to "patrol", and the actual lethal shootings were conducted by the snipers. In the videos, it looks like the soldiers were running around, not having any coordination - perhaps they were confused, too, of we're the shots were coming? This would explain how the provocateurs could act so calmly. They knew that any lethal shots would be shot by the snipers.

In the video you posted above, the soldiers were being shot at, I think it is likely they would return fire unless they were explicitly told not to, which I don't think is the case given the way the Kiev tools are directing the show and calling Eastern Ukrainians "terrorists". In fact, I'd say that the soldiers are under very ill-defined orders to "keep the peace", which usually ends up in nervous, ill-trained recruits shooting civilians.

 

[Joe]

Yes, Aragorn, the pro-Kiev forces use great many ways of deception: we saw it in Kiev, Slavyansk, Odessa and elsewhere in the Ukraine. They dress like the pro-Russian protesters and use their provocations to further blame it on pro-Russians or Russians or both. And then Washington just says to the world "Seeeee? (pro)Russians did it again!"

Despite the obvious fact that the unarmed civilians were shot in Mariupol, here is what Jen Psaki has to say about it:

“Well, we condemn the outbreak of violence caused by pro-Russia separatists this morning in Mariupol, which has resulted in multiple deaths.”

http://www.rt.com/news/157992-mariupol-violence-us-osce/

Sure, blame the victim, especially if the victim is unarmed. :(

I'd say that, by now, Eastern Ukrainians understand the intent of Kiev and its soldiers, and it isn't friendly. Having seen so many killed to date, I think any group of people on the streets to either confront soldiers/kiev paramilitaries or who expect them to arrive, will contain individuals who are armed. There's only so much being shot at that civilians can take before they decide to equip themselves with the means to shoot back. That doesn't preclude the idea that Kiev is using tried and tested provocateur and 'false flag' methods, most likely under the direction of US and EU 'advisers' who have a detailed knowledge of, and history of using, such methods.

 

[Siberia]

Yes, Aragorn, the pro-Kiev forces use great many ways of deception: we saw it in Kiev, Slavyansk, Odessa and elsewhere in the Ukraine. They dress like the pro-Russian protesters and use their provocations to further blame it on pro-Russians or Russians or both. And then Washington just says to the world "Seeeee? (pro)Russians did it again!"

Despite the obvious fact that the unarmed civilians were shot in Mariupol, here is what Jen Psaki has to say about it:

“Well, we condemn the outbreak of violence caused by pro-Russia separatists this morning in Mariupol, which has resulted in multiple deaths.”

http://www.rt.com/news/157992-mariupol-violence-us-osce/

Sure, blame the victim, especially if the victim is unarmed. :(

I'd say that, by now, Eastern Ukrainians understand the intent of Kiev and its soldiers, and it isn't friendly. Having seen so many killed to date, I think any group of people on the streets to either confront soldiers/kiev paramilitaries or who expect them to arrive, will contain individuals who are armed. There's only so much being shot at that civilians can take before they decide to equip themselves with the means to shoot back. That doesn't preclude the idea that Kiev is using tried and tested provocateur and 'false flag' methods, most likely under the direction of US and EU 'advisers' who have a detailed knowledge of, and history of using, such methods.

It's true, by now many Eastern Ukrainians are armed and well-organized, they call such groups "people's self-defence forces."

But the official version of this particular episode is as follows: during the Victory Parade on May 9, Kiev soldiers came to take control over Mariupol police department. The police officers barricaded themselves inside the building. The demonstrators (ordinary unarmed civilians) left the parade and came up to the soldiers who were still outside the building. The demonstrators were shouting "traitors" and "fascists" thus provoking the soldiers to start shooting at them.

Maybe it was more complicated than that, it's hard to say.

 

[Siberia]

A little off-topic: East Ukraine about Eurovision 2014 results.

=> Home
<= to Europe

European ManMaid

Ukraine, you wanted Europe?
Konchita is waiting for the Ukraine {in Russian "Konchita" sounds like "death"}
May 11
You either come to the referendum
Or the Bluebeard is waiting for you

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

seen pictures of people who came to the referendum - a thousand inhabitants, the ballot boxes are filled, all photos I've seen - on the ballot people put answers "Yes." ukrainian Media show another complete lie that referendums in general nobody came that all bins are empty and all such nonsense. actually, the junta rages and hysteria as harmful child.
these are the candid photo spreads false junta:

 

[Joe]

A little off-topic: East Ukraine about Eurovision 2014 results.

Ukraine, you wanted Europe?
Konchita is waiting for the Ukraine {in Russian "Konchita" sounds like "death"}

May 11 - You either come to the referendum Or the Bluebeard is waiting for you

That's the perfect face of the EU. Out of 34 countries that took part in the competition, 26 sang in English and 4 sang in a mix of their native language and English. The American Empire has done a pretty good job in spreading globalisation, wouldn't you say

 

[Siberia]

seen pictures of people who came to the referendum - a thousand inhabitants, the ballot boxes are filled, all photos I've seen - on the ballot people put answers "Yes." ukrainian Media show another complete lie that referendums in general nobody came that all bins are empty and all such nonsense. actually, the junta rages and hysteria as harmful child.

Not only it is a lie, it is one of the most stupid ones: there will be plenty of video evidence of high voter turnout. Russian TV channel "Russia 24" is broadcasting it live since early morning: crowds of families near the voting stations in Mariupol, Donetsk, Lughansk. Lughansk: over 75% turnout already, Donetsk - over 50%, Mariupol: thousands of people standing in the line to vote (due to the lack of voting stations).

 

[Siberia]

Mariupol: huge crowd of people waiting to vote.

http://<iframe width="420" height="...iM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Donetsk: the same.

http://<iframe width="420" height="...F0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[thorbiorn]

A little off-topic: East Ukraine about Eurovision 2014 results.

Ukraine, you wanted Europe?
Konchita is waiting for the Ukraine {in Russian "Konchita" sounds like "death"}

May 11 - You either come to the referendum Or the Bluebeard is waiting for you

That's the perfect face of the EU. Out of 34 countries that took part in the competition, 26 sang in English and 4 sang in a mix of their native language and English. The American Empire has done a pretty good job in spreading globalisation, wouldn't you say

Indeed, and the brainwashing begins at school. At least in Southern Scandinavia the curriculum of English and the textbooks that are available are usually very tilted in favour of Anglo-American culture. In recent years the idea of English as a Lingua Franca, which would justify the inclusion of the ways and manners of non-English speaking countries, has been growing, but it is in most cases a very long way off in practical terms, because it would require teachers, whose time for preparation has been cut, to come up with new material, while they stille get the needed done in terms of listening, pronunciation, speaking, reading and writing. Pupils used to begin in grade five, then grade three and now grade one. On the other hand they have to wait another five years before they begin second foreign language. And just to give an idea of how poor the interest and knowledge of Russian is, there were last year less than 5/1000 students who took classes in Russian. So yes, the American Empire has a huge advantage. And when one looks at the distance it becomes obvious how tilted the view is, since the distance from Pskov in Westren Russia, L'viv/L'vov in Ukraine, Zurich in Switzerland, Paris in France and London in the UK to Copenhagen in Denmark is around a 1000km (995+- 40 km). In any case, the closeness in space to Eastern Europe is most certainly not (yet) reflected in the quality of understanding.

 

[Altair]

Mariupol: huge crowd of people waiting to vote.

http://<iframe width="420" height="...iM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Donetsk: the same.

http://<iframe width="420" height="...F0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm afraid that after publishing the results of the referendum the conflict will be further escalating and cost many innocent lives... :(

 

[thorbiorn]

If one goes to this site there is a short excerpt of an interview with Henry Kissinger

May 10th, 2014
10:37 PM ET
Kissinger: Putin likely didn't plan to bring Ukraine situation to a head

Fareed speaks with former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger about what might be behind Russia’s recent policy toward Ukraine. Watch the full interview on "Fareed Zakaria GPS," this Sunday at 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. ET on CNN

Kissinger: One has to ask oneself this question: He spent $60 billion on the Olympics. They had opening and closing ceremonies, trying to show Russia as a normal progressive state. So it isn't possible that he, three days later, would voluntarily start an assault on Ukraine. There is no doubt that…

So to explain. You're saying you don't think this was a plan. You think he reacted to events that he saw as spiraling out of his control?

Kissinger: Yes. I think at all times he wanted Ukraine in a subordinate position. And at all times, every senior Russian that I've ever met, including dissidents like Solzhenitsyn and Brodsky, looked at Ukraine as part of the Russian heritage.

But I don't think he had planned to bring it to a head now. I think he had planned a more gradual situation, and this is sort of a response to what he conceived to be an emergency situation. Of course, to explain why he did it doesn't mean one approves of annexing part of another country or crossing of borders. But I think we ought to settle the Ukraine issue first, and then have a discussion about relations with Russia.

By the way Kissinger will be 91 years of age on May 27th _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger The question is how does he imagine settling the Ukraine issue when the situation has progressed this far?
A Russian media reaction to what Kissinger says can be found here: _http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_11/Claims-that-Putin-initiated-conflict-in-Ukraine-after-Sochi-Olympics-make-no-sense-Kissinger-8792/

 

[Possibility of Being]

Oligarch Akhmetov calls for suspension of anti-terrorist operation in Donbas

What's up with that? Oligarchs' another clash in action?

Rinat Akhmetov of the Donetsk clan whose fortune is estimated at $16 billion (Fursov)

In English:
_http://zik.ua/en/news/2014/05/11/akhmetov_calls_for_suspension_of_antiterrorist_operation_in_donbas_486761

Akhmetov urged the central government to stop its anti-terrorist operation in Donbas, a May 11 statement on Akhmetov-owned Metinvest group website runs.

“We are calling to stop the use of heavy weapons and large-scale combat activities in Donbas cities. We believe Ukraine military must withdraw from Donbas cities,” it runs.

The potential of peaceful talks has not been fully tapped, it says

“The government can and must hear the voice of Donbas residents. Further military operations will destroy our trust in the regime,the statement runs.

MetInvest proposes to admit the past mistakes made in Mariupol and other Donbas cities, urgently take compromise political decisions to defuse the tensions.

To keep law and order, Metinvest proposes to create brigades of vigilantes from among Metinvest staff jointly with the municipal police.

As of May 12, these brigades will patrol the cities and protect peaceful residents from marauders and criminals, the statement runs.

In Mariupol, marauding is on a very high scale, with shops and businesses looted by armed criminal gangs.

Whatever his interest is in doing that, on Euromaidan FB he's called a traitor who chose his side:

_https://www.facebook.com/euromaidanpr/posts/258213454362464

_https://news.pn/en/public/103812

...the military expert Tymchuk believes that «this scenario differently as provocation not to designate». and: the businessman Akhmetov has no legitimate rights to form private army. ... The expert noted that the statement «Metinvest» about «national teams» is «absolutely unclear and provocative». Tymchuk notes that to «to Akhmetov's scenario» there are very big questions regarding its compliance to national interests of Ukraine.

In Russian, from official Metinvest website:
_http://www.metinvestholding.com/ru/press/news/show/2903

Google translation:

Metinvest Group encourages abandon the bloody methods of "cleansing" Mariupol and other cities of the Donbas
05/10/2014

Events in Mariupol again showed that from the clashes in the territory where they live and work are a peaceful people , especially people suffering . In the city of bloodshed . It happened in the holy day for all of us - the Victory Day on May 9.

Residents of Mariupol , veterans, children hear explosions and gunshots, victims of bloodshed. Urban Life paralyzed Municipal destroyed. Broken quiet work of metallurgical plants , and it is not just a job and salary for Mariupol is the economic foundation of the Donetsk region and the whole Ukraine.

We urge to abandon the practice of conducting peaceful cities Donbass scale battles with the use of the Armed Forces , heavy equipment and weapons. We believe that the Ukrainian military and other armed men must leave the city. Not yet exhausted all the possibilities for peace talks. More power can and must hear the voice of the residents of Donbass. Authorities must ensure peace in the cities, so that people can live and work . To normal city life has been restored and people are not afraid to go out on the street, go to work, walking with children , in short, to live as they used to and are entitled to.

Further military operations on the territory of Donbass will only lead to the fact that most people will lose trust and respect for authority .

Metinvest Group proposes that fatal mistakes committed in Mariupol and other cities of the Donbas , to withdraw , to engage in dialogue with citizens, to take urgent political compromise solutions aimed at the removal of social tensions.

To maintain order in Mariupol Metinvest Group in conjunction with the municipal police creates militias from among the employees mettalurgicheskih plants. Starting tomorrow, these squads will begin patrolling the city and protect civilians from looters and criminals operating in the city.

Yuri Rizhenkov , CEO of Metinvest Group

Yuriy Zinchenko , CEO Works of Mariupol

Enver Tskitishvili , CEO Works "Azovstal"

 

[Aeneas]

If one goes to this site there is a short excerpt of an interview with Henry Kissinger

May 10th, 2014
10:37 PM ET
Kissinger: Putin likely didn't plan to bring Ukraine situation to a head

Fareed speaks with former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger about what might be behind Russia’s recent policy toward Ukraine. Watch the full interview on "Fareed Zakaria GPS," this Sunday at 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. ET on CNN

Kissinger: One has to ask oneself this question: He spent $60 billion on the Olympics. They had opening and closing ceremonies, trying to show Russia as a normal progressive state. So it isn't possible that he, three days later, would voluntarily start an assault on Ukraine. There is no doubt that…

So to explain. You're saying you don't think this was a plan. You think he reacted to events that he saw as spiraling out of his control?

Kissinger: Yes. I think at all times he wanted Ukraine in a subordinate position. And at all times, every senior Russian that I've ever met, including dissidents like Solzhenitsyn and Brodsky, looked at Ukraine as part of the Russian heritage.

But I don't think he had planned to bring it to a head now. I think he had planned a more gradual situation, and this is sort of a response to what he conceived to be an emergency situation. Of course, to explain why he did it doesn't mean one approves of annexing part of another country or crossing of borders. But I think we ought to settle the Ukraine issue first, and then have a discussion about relations with Russia.

It is now up, but in a version from Voice of Russia as it had a couple more details: http://www.sott.net/article/278922-Kissinger-It-is-not-possible-that-Putin-would-voluntarily-start-an-assault-on-Ukraine-just-after-the-Sochi-Olympics

 

[Aeneas]

Oligarch Akhmetov calls for suspension of anti-terrorist operation in Donbas

What's up with that? Oligarchs' another clash in action?

Rinat Akhmetov of the Donetsk clan whose fortune is estimated at $16 billion (Fursov)

In English:
_http://zik.ua/en/news/2014/05/11/akhmetov_calls_for_suspension_of_antiterrorist_operation_in_donbas_486761

Thank you for the link. It is now up on sott: http://www.sott.net/article/278923-Ukrainian-oligarch-Akhmetov-calls-for-suspension-of-anti-terrorist-operation-in-Donbas

Obviously civil war is bad for business and very few workers will show up for work, if they have to protect their family and possessions from the military junta's raids.

 

[thorbiorn]

[...]

I'm afraid that after publishing the results of the referendum the conflict will be further escalating and cost many innocent lives... :(

Yes, I am also not optimistic. Russia may not go in, but it would also not be interested in allowing NATO to take the place either. Besides, the people in the East have a border that, unless this is changed, allows passage of people without much control, and there is also access to the sea. In other words plenty of possibilities to get weapons. Likewise military qualifications are not lacking. There should be sufficient reserve officers and veterans from the Afghan war. One reason is that it at least in the Soviet times used to be so that every young man who entered university received training as an officer. Also, I was told that in the Sovjet times all teenage school children had to pass a test where they had to assemble a Kalashnikov blindfolded. On the other side, NATO, the US, EU, the Oligarchs etc are likely to have soldiers and weapons. What I noticed though, was that the town of Krasnoarmiist or Krasnoarmeysk _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasnoarmiisk where Kijev troops took down four polling stations only has abour 70.000 inhabitants. In other words, it is possible they do not feel confident to go into Donetsk just yet, but if they wish to regain control, they will have to do it. Time will show if they can, and if they can, if they can maintain it.
Fortunately, the nuclear power plants are not located in the present region of conflict.

I have been wondering, if there is anything positive about this whole Ukraine business. Well, one feature is that some people, because of the situation, may begin to look for answers and perhaps stumble onto a site like SOTT and from there onto something else, like EE. diet, Laura's books, knoiwledge about ponerology or something else. If awakening is a possible byproduct, how could one support this? Perhaps by visiting websites and social media where UA is discussed and leave short comments and links to SOTT articles, translated SOTT articles or other articles that put the situation in perspective. In the long run the opportunity offered might be for some people to establish themselves in groups as described in recent sessions here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,34616.0.html and here http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,34655.0.html And why could that not be done in Ukraine with its fertile lands and many good people?