Civil War in Ukraine: Western Empire vs Russia

[Niall]

A little off-topic: East Ukraine about Eurovision 2014 results.

Ukraine, you wanted Europe?
Konchita is waiting for the Ukraine {in Russian "Konchita" sounds like "death"}

May 11 - You either come to the referendum Or the Bluebeard is waiting for you

That's the perfect face of the EU. Out of 34 countries that took part in the competition, 26 sang in English and 4 sang in a mix of their native language and English. The American Empire has done a pretty good job in spreading globalisation, wouldn't you say

It's a double-edged sword though: people from all over the empire are communicating with each other behind the tyrant's back. Just look at this forum!

 

[Joe]

It's a double-edged sword though: people from all over the empire are communicating with each other behind the tyrant's back. Just look at this forum!

Good point, and an example of those intending to do evil actually doing good in another way.

 

[Niall]

Yes, I am also not optimistic. Russia may not go in, but it would also not be interested in allowing NATO to take the place either.

I don't think they'll try to invade and occupy, at least not officially.

But they can try every dirty trick short of that. Apparently Blackwater are now definitely in eastern Ukraine: http://www.sott.net/article/278916-400-US-mercenaries-deployed-on-ground-in-Ukraine-military-op

The Kiev junta is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. They've already played the terror card - and we all know that killing your own people is the worst and most unforgivable crime against humanity, right? - so the people of Donbass are going to become an independent entity some day, then perhaps join the Russian Federation. Each time they shoot more people, the mass of people there become more determined to separate, and to do so more quickly. It's a matter of time.

Putin could intervene militarily now... or he could wait until the Kiev madmen start dropping bombs on people from jets and slaughtering them in large numbers. They won't be able to hide or twist that, or get away with blaming Russia. Global outrage will ensue (fractures in the imperial party line are already appearing among EU countries) and propaganda will become increasingly ineffective.

Throughout this, Putin and the Russian intelligence services/media just need to keep reporting the reality that conflicts so jarringly with the false reality the US is trying to 'make real'. No doubt he prefers to intervene now and save lives, but the alternative is to let Kiev's desperation to keep Ukraine's most industrial region run its course, at least to the point that it's clear as day to most of the world that war crimes are being committed by the Kiev junta.

At which point a ceasefire is brokered, Donetsk and Lugansk (and whichever other regions have decided they've had enough) then do what Kiev was terrified they'd do (and by whose actions have brought about the very thing they did not want to happen)... secede and very probably rejoin Russia.

But there's way more than two small regions at stake here. The splits within the empire will be seismic. Russia will be seen as a righteous victor. Things can go non-linear from there.

 

[Corvus]

Don't think so. I think he was holding a phone (videoing), as several other people were. There is a different guy at 2.55 who clearly fires two shots at the soldiers though.

If he was holding a gun he would have been shot not the men beside him(probably both), not even being able to pull it because soldier was few meters away. If on the other hand he did managed to do it unnoticed that soldier would be laying down in video and there are no any. This other guy shots two rounds at the soldier who is some 10 or more meters away and misses while soldier is only watching(That was ankward), and that guy in black on the right was lucky he did not get bullet from that guy while he was shooting. These people have balls or are not very smart to go being shooting ducks, some of them even not taking any cover and throwing chairs versus bullets. Being nervous is normal thing in such a situations being pro or no pro but shooting civilians is another thing, not so much lack of professionalism(depending on how you define it) that comes here(which is probably the case in combat situations) as US troops and their merceneries do the same thing and they are called professionals, but orders to shoot freely at anything percieved as threat or that is offering any resistance, and there are people in there who can shoot other people for sheer pleasure of it.

 

[Siberia]

Despite their usual rhetoric, NYTimes admits some facts:

Large crowds turned out in some cities to cast votes meant to legitimize the separatists’ declarations of independent “people’s republics” in the two provinces.
...
Nearly everyone who cast a ballot appeared to be voting in favor of greater autonomy from the Ukrainian central government in Kiev. Opponents appeared to be staying away from the polls, as many had said they would. The ballot papers that could be seen in transparent ballot boxes in two cities, Donetsk and Slovyansk, were almost all marked yes.
...
In one town, Ukrainian security forces shot a man to death outside a polling station as an angry crowd, ignoring warning shots, rushed toward a building that the soldiers controlled. In some other cities, voters took ballots that were run off on photocopiers and stuffed them into cardboard boxes that the organizers spirited off quickly, lest they be seized by pro-government forces.

By contrast, the atmosphere at polling places in Donetsk city, the capital of the province, was carnival-like, with balloons decorating the entrances and loudspeakers playing Soviet-era songs. Families with children in tow stood in long lines waiting to vote.

Many people who cast ballots said they hoped the election would solidify the self-styled independent republics in Donetsk and Luhansk enough to tamp down the violence in the region. Roman Agrisov, a 40-year-old steelworker, said he wanted his vote to signal to the central government to pull its troops out of eastern Ukraine. “I am voting because I don’t want war,” he said.
...
But in the afternoon, a Ukrainian national guard unit known as the Dnepr Brigade appeared and broke up the voting. Organizers grabbed the boxes of cast ballots and ran, presumably intending to count them later, and the soldiers took up positions in the City Hall building where a secessionist polling station had been operating on the steps.

With the cardboard and cloth remains of a polling stand littering the ground, the armed men demonstratively cocked their rifles, sometimes leveling them. When a man from the crowd approached the building to block another group of soldiers from entering, he was shot and killed.

Shots were fired in another confrontation in the Luhansk region, the Interfax news agency reported. Ukrainian soldiers there fired into a crowd that was blocking national guard armored vehicles near the village of Baranikovka, the agency said; two people were wounded.
...
Late Sunday, separatist leaders in Donetsk reported that the ballot on “self-rule” had gone in their favor, with almost 90 percent of the vote, and that 75 percent of the region’s eligible voters had gone to the polls. For the province as a whole, another organizer was quoted as saying, “on average, from every 1,000 ballots, only one is against.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-referendum.html?hpw&rref=world

And even the Guardian admits it too:

The referendum in Donetsk and Luhansk regions, which Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, advised local leaders to postpone, came as widespread anger mounted over Ukrainian military moves against armed separatists.

There was a further bloody incident on Sunday as a detachment of Ukraine's National Guard arrived in the town of Krasnoarmeisk. According to witnesses, they were angrily accosted by unarmed locals and subsequently opened fire, killing one and wounding two.

The authorities in Kiev have said these are "anti-terrorist operations", but they have resulted in a number of deaths, most recently in the city of Mariupol on Friday when at least seven people died as Ukrainian forces entered the city.

Only four polling stations opened on Sunday in Mariupol, which is home to 500,000 people. One was in the burned-out city administration building, seized by separatists and scene of fierce clashes in recent days. There were huge queues of people, almost all of whom said they were voting yes to separatism.
...
It is not clear whether Russia has the appetite to annex more of Ukraine, but many of those at polling stations believed that is what they were voting for.

At a polling station in a Donetsk school, Alexander Baturenko, 27, who was one of the volunteers helping to organise the vote, said he hoped the region would become part of Russia. The economics graduate, who now works in as an accountant in a big company, said: "It's much quieter and more peaceful there. Here it's one president after another; there it never changes."

Ludmila Babushkina, 78, said she had cast her voted to protect the region from "fascists" in Kiev. She said that previously there had been a chance to make some kind of compromise with Kiev, but that none of the leading candidates in the election represented the Russian-speaking east of the country and that now she had decided she wanted to join Russia.

She said the referendum was causing divisions. "My neighbour argued with me this morning and told me that I should not vote, that we don't need any of this. To be honest, I was pretty surprised that she had fascist views. She seemed nice."

A Russian journalist said he had been allowed to vote despite not showing any passport, while others reported they were able to vote several times.

Lyagin said the referendum was not perfect but was the best thing possible in the current Ukrainian climate. "We don't have a legitimate government in Kiev. There is a de facto president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, and just because he is not at his desk does not mean that other people can take over," Lyagin said. "We have people who are themselves illegal telling us that we are illegal."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/eastern-ukraine-referendum-donetsk-luhansk

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

It's a double-edged sword though: people from all over the empire are communicating with each other behind the tyrant's back. Just look at this forum!

Good point, and an example of those intending to do evil actually doing good in another way.

Very true! And this also is "you see only what you want to see". Should be part of "creating reality" too. But without them having a conscience, always there will be mistakes (4D sts also must make big mistakes).
Thanks Kniall for sharing how you see the situation.

Despite their usual rhetoric, NYTimes admits some facts:

More and worse news for the empire!.
It is remarkable what the people who wants freedom are doing in the eastern Ukraine. Despite that the PTB turning their lives into a hell, pure continuous stress of survival situations, the people are facing all that with an enviable courage. I see the videos and it's amazing. They do not break, resist. Very braves. And they are determined to be free of the nazis of Kiev.

 

[Siberia]

A little symbolic, IMO: yesterday we celebrated our local holiday here, in Novosibirsk, Siberia - the Day of the Bear. This holiday was planned for May 11 long time ago, long before the crisis in the Ukraine. But somehow it coinsided with the referendum on independence in Donetsk and Lughansk regions.

In fact, the holiday was planned in winter to celebrate the birthday of... a baby polar bear. :)

On 11.12.13 (curious date) a little cub was born in Novosibirsk zoo. For a long time we didn't know whether it was a boy or a girl, but somewhere in February or March we found out that it was a girl. Since then we've been voting to choose a name for her. Yesterday she officially was named Shylka. Thousands of people come from all over Siberia to visit her. Children love her (and her parents) very much. Our polar bears are very popular with the public: they are always active, love to play and swim in their pool.

The curious synchronicity is not only about the date: May 11 became the symbolic "birthday" of a new state and a baby bear, but it may also be about the name: Novosibirsk means "New Siberia" and the new state, as far as I understand, is to become Novorossia which means "New Russia".

Just wanted to share this with you, fwiw.

Here is our baby (the photo was taken in winter):

The link in Russian: http://www.zoonovosib.ru/news/183.

 

[axj]

It seems like there might be a change in tactic on the part of the Western mainstream propaganda.

The fact that 400 Blackwater mercenaries are operating in the Ukraine has been reported in all the mainstream media in Germany and elsewhere. The origin of that was a leaked document from the German intelligence agency BND.

The strange part was that it was initially presented in the "Bild am Sonntag" newspaper, which is one of the main pro-U.S. propaganda outlets. I wondered why they would reveal something as damaging to the cause of the U.S. and Western politicians as that.

Some possibilities:

1) One last desperate effort to get Putin to invade Ukraine.

2) Having analyzed the ineffective propaganda efforts so far, they decided that they need to establish at least some credibility for themselves.

3) Or it may be something as simple as selling more newspapers with a 'sensationalist' story.

Or a combination of all of the above.

 

[Niall]

Some possibilities:

1) One last desperate effort to get Putin to invade Ukraine.

2) Having analyzed the ineffective propaganda efforts so far, they decided that they need to establish at least some credibility for themselves.

3) Or it may be something as simple as selling more newspapers with a 'sensationalist' story.

Or a combination of all of the above.

Maybe they want 1) to happen, but I think their immediate priority is to regain control of the new states. The 'armed forces' of the Kiev junta are inadequate, so private mercenaries who have battle experience - and won't mind shooting people they don't know - were brought in.

If it's true that the locals in Mariupol hung from the nearest street lamp the Kiev militia commander responsible for last weekend's slaughter, then I foresee the same fate for Blackwater types as happened in Somalia in 1994.

 

[Siberia]

If it's true that the locals in Mariupol hung from the nearest street lamp the Kiev militia commander responsible for last weekend's slaughter, then I foresee the same fate for Blackwater types as happened in Somalia in 1994.

Do you mean Valery Andruschuk? I was shocked when I heard this news..

But Russian mass media says he is alive and has been released by the protesters of Mariupol today. The Head of the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, Arsen Avakov, confirmed it.

In Russian:

http://expert.ru/2014/05/12/glava-mvd-ukrainyi-osvobozhden-nachalnik-militsii-mariupolya-valerij-andruschuk/
http://podrobnosti.ua/accidents/2014/05/11/975461.html

 

[anothermagyar]

Two articles from a Hungarian Newspaper: Weekly Global Economy (Heti Vilag Gazdasag)

original(in Hungarian):

http://hvg.hu/vilag/20140512_Megszolalt_a_Kreml_a_keletukrajnai_nepsz

Said the Kremlin in eastern Ukraine referendums

The Kremlin held a respectful attitude to the manner in which residents voted Monday on the referendums held in two Ukrainian Counties.

Russia respects the intent of inhabitants of the Donetsk and Luhansk region in Eastern Ukraine and expects to begin a civilized dialogue with representatives of Kiev authorities -
the Kremlin press service said on Monday.

Preliminary results for the Donetsk County Election Commission on Sunday night indicated that 89.07 per cent of the electorate had voted the area's independence, while 10.19 percent voted against it, and in the
Luhansk region 94 to 98 percent of voters opted for independence - proclaimed the President of the People's Republic of Donetsk.

Authorities in Kiev and several foreign countries do not recognize the results of the so-called East-Ukrainian referendum.

Here is the other one:

http://hvg.hu/vilag/20140512_Szavaztak_keletukrajnaban_minden_szem_Pu

Voted in eastern Ukraine , all eyes stick to Putin

Nearly 90 percent of citizens voted in the Donetsk region for independent status in a referendum held Sunday.

The results of the referendum held in the other East-Ukrainian breakaway - Luhans'ka County - were sent to the local election commission officials to be made ​​public on Monday

In a press conference held by Roman Ljahin, President of the People's Republic of Donetsk separatists, Donetsk County Election Commission preliminary results showed that 89.07 percent of the electorate had voted for the area's independence, while 10.19 percent voted against - Ria Novosti of the Russian news agency said.

0.74 percent of the ballots were invalid. Ljahin said that the turnout was 74.87 percent. .The final results are to be made ​​public on Monday.
Chairman of the Electoral Commission said that "It was surprisingly easy to count all lists because relatively few people voted in the negative, the percentage of spoiled ballots in addition was negligible ."

Oleksandr Malihin , chairman of the local election commission 's press conference in Luhans'ka County just reported that the turnout was 81 percent .

Vasily Nikitin , the so-called south- eastern army spokesman said that a nationwide rally will be held to discuss other duties of the People's Republic of Luhans'ka at five or six o'clock local time when the official results of the referendum are disclosed.

The Kiev news site reported with irony how quickly that the Election Commission of Donetsk listed all the managed aggregate.

The Ukrinform news agency notes that the " terrorists" Electoral Commission was unable to restrain himself , and with " phenomenal speed, " 1 1/2 hours after the close of the polls, published the results.
The UNIAN said that " The separatists whom counted the votes proved to be fast."

The news agency notes reinforced the doubts. Of the population in the Donetsk region , 3.35 million citizens eligible to vote , 21 polling division and 2,425 polling location must operate . Alone in the county town , Donetsk city 706 thousand citizens entitled to vote and live in 371 polling district there .

Russian President Vladimir Putin in the light of the results gave an opinion on the status of Donetsk and the Luhans'ka county referendum held on Sunday
- said presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov the Russian newspaper Kommersant was Commenting.
Peskov said it is difficult to predict what decision Putin will make.

Assistant to the newspaper asked the spokesperson , how will this influence Putin since he had requested the postponement of the referendum of eastern Ukrainian adherents . Peskov drew attention to the fact that Putin had not actually asked them, but only proposed they do so.

"However, this ( the proposal ) , despite the president 's prestige, was difficult to listen to because of the operations of the residents are forced to act along their own plans, based on the real situation. " - Said Peskov .

The United States and the European Union has given its understanding that it does not recognize the Donetsk and Luhans'ka referendum ,
and has warned that further sanctions could lead against Russia , if the eastern Ukrainian referendum causes the Ukrainian presidential election on 25 May to fail.

Peskov said these objections to Russia are "nonsense".

"Why the West was unable to prevent the deployment of armored combat vehicles in Slovyansk and Kramatorsk and killing peaceful citizens? They didn't use their influence to stop killing innocent people, and therefore nothing wrong with them, while Russia is responsible for everything?" - Echoed Putin's spokesman.

Dmitry Peskov said the West is pursuing an hypocritical policy when they threaten Moscow with sanctions . "It is not important for them to implement these agreements correspond to the dialogue, and whether the shooting ends. Important for them to organize the presidential election, and close legal questions related to any organized coup." - said the spokesman.

Jerry helped me to put it in correct English.
Thanks Jerry!

 

[Niall]

If it's true that the locals in Mariupol hung from the nearest street lamp the Kiev militia commander responsible for last weekend's slaughter, then I foresee the same fate for Blackwater types as happened in Somalia in 1994.

Do you mean Valery Andruschuk? I was shocked when I heard this news..

But Russian mass media says he is alive and has been released by the protesters of Mariupol today. The Head of the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, Arsen Avakov, confirmed it.

In Russian:

http://expert.ru/2014/05/12/glava-mvd-ukrainyi-osvobozhden-nachalnik-militsii-mariupolya-valerij-andruschuk/
http://podrobnosti.ua/accidents/2014/05/11/975461.html

Ok, maybe it was just a rumor then.

On the subject of the Mariupol massacre, what is the highest figure you've heard for numbers killed there? I heard 2... then 21... now 'almost 100':

http://ukraine-human-rights.org/massacre-in-mariupol-up-to-100-people-shot-dead-on-day-of-victory-over-fascism/

 

[Possibility of Being]

Do you mean Valery Andruschuk? I was shocked when I heard this news..

But Russian mass media says he is alive and has been released by the protesters of Mariupol today. The Head of the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, Arsen Avakov, confirmed it.

In Russian:

http://expert.ru/2014/05/12/glava-mvd-ukrainyi-osvobozhden-nachalnik-militsii-mariupolya-valerij-andruschuk/
http://podrobnosti.ua/accidents/2014/05/11/975461.html

And what about this piece of 'news' where the kidnapped claims on TV that the hung is alive (they lost me here ) ...but expensive?

_http://podrobnosti.ua/accidents/2014/05/11/975461.html

Yandex traslation, slightly improved:
11 May
People's Deputy of the Verkhovna Rada, the presidential candidate Oleg Lyashko argues that the chief of the city police Mariupol Valery Androshuk alive.

He said this in a live broadcast of the program "Details of the week" on Sunday evening.

"The chief of police of the city of Mariupol, Valery Androschuk alive, but they want large ransom for him. We are negotiating," said Lyashko from Mariupol.

He also denied information about his abduction. On Sunday separatists has spread information that militiamen captured Oleg Lyashko and are taking him to Slavyansk.

 

[Joe]

If it's true that the locals in Mariupol hung from the nearest street lamp the Kiev militia commander responsible for last weekend's slaughter, then I foresee the same fate for Blackwater types as happened in Somalia in 1994.

Or in Fallujah in 2004

 

[thorbiorn]

This is an interview between John Robles and Professor Barry Lituchy, an American-Jewish historian, about US/EU collaboration with Nazi type groups in Ukraine and elsewhere:

US/Nazi collaboration: Ukraine and worldwide – Prof Barry Lituchy
The US government, NATO, European Union countries and their pliant media are all suppressing the truth about what is really occurring in Ukraine, just like in Yugoslavia. And they are supporting and using Nazi groups to fulfill geopolitical objectives, something that they have continued to do since the end of the Great Patriotic War (World War II). It would be understandable if Jews worldwide raised the alarm and took up arms, metaphorically speaking, against the US. However, they are not being informed and the truth is being suppressed. We spoke to Professor Barry Lituchy, the editor and co-author of the book “Jasenovac and the Holocaust in Yugoslavia”. He is also a member of the US-Jewish community and has roots in Ukraine. He spoke about the US support and the continuation of US collusion with Nazis and fascists worldwide.

[...]
Robles: What is the reaction, what is your reaction to Victoria Nuland? She is a member of the Jewish community. I am sure she had Intelligence, I am sure she knew exactly who Svoboda was, who Yatsenyuk was, who Tyganbok was. How could they actually allow these people to come into power?

Lituchy: Yeah, well it’s very hard for me to know exactly what’s in the mind of someone like Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland or much less her husband Robert Kagan, the hardline neo-conservative, theorist and advisor to presidents from Reagan to Clinton.

As far as their Jewish identity and their desire to use political movements with deeply anti-Semitic as well as racist, anti-Russian racist ideas, that is something really for a psychiatrist, I think, to figure out.

[...]

What is not being discussed is the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, but given his position that is maybe less realistic. Other than that, I think there are several useful pieces of information, and it could become a SOTT article.