Civil War in Ukraine: Western Empire vs Russia

[Gaby]

Here is a good video from an Ukrainian depute and former presidential candidate (1999 &2004), Nataliya Vitrenko. She tells it as it is and has no illusions as to what is happening. The war is a convenient distraction from the economic situation in Ukraine and the privatization of all assets. The video has English subtitles.

http://<iframe width="560" height="...9s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As she says, she is well aware of the risks she is taking by making this appeal, but at the same time says that she can't keep silent about it.

Kudos to her!

That was very good! So much sanity is so rare these days.

 

[Siberia]

Emotion causes bias (it could even be said, emotion is bias). The sources of emotion are not examined.

You clearly are massively emotional about the situation in Ukraine. Many are. Are you aware that emotion will distort your 'reading machine'?

These statements, and the "reading machine" in particular, remind me of the following from Gurgjieff (quote from In Search of the Miraculous by P.D. Ouspensky):

Small accumulators suffice for the ordinary, everyday work of life. But for work on oneself, for inner growth, and for the efforts which are required of a man who enters the way, the energy from these small accumulators is not enough.

We must learn how to draw energy straight from the large accumulator.

This however is possible only with the help of the emotional center. It is essential that this be understood. The connection with the large accumulator can be effected only through the emotional center. The instinctive, moving, and intellectual centers, by themselves, can feed only on the small accumulators.

This is precisely what people do not understand. Therefore their aim must be the development of the activity of the emotional center. The emotional center is an apparatus much more subtle than the intellectual center, particularly if we take into consideration the fact that in the whole of the intellectual center the only part that works is the formatory apparatus and that many things are quite inaccessible to the intellectual center. If anyone desires to know and to understand more than he actually knows and understands, he must remember that this new knowledge and this new understanding will come through the emotional center and not through the intellectual center.

Being overemotional is draining. But being emotionless is.. being mechanical?

 

[anothermagyar]

Here is a good video from an Ukrainian depute and former presidential candidate (1999 &2004), Nataliya Vitrenko. She tells it as it is and has no illusions as to what is happening. The war is a convenient distraction from the economic situation in Ukraine and the privatization of all assets. The video has English subtitles.

http://<iframe width="560" height="...9s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As she says, she is well aware of the risks she is taking by making this appeal, but at the same time says that she can't keep silent about it.

Kudos to her!

That was very good! So much sanity is so rare these days.

I second that!
Thank you guys for the invaluable infos!


[quote author=Siberia]Being overemotional is draining. But being emotionless is.. being mechanical?[/quote]

Thank you Siberia!
:)

For Be:
Reminds me to: "You can't think the way you think, because the way you think."
We're trying to be OBJECTIVE in here. Get the facts, please.
;)

[quote author=Gurdjieff]Many factors reinforce this sleep. Each of the reactions that proceed in one’s presence is accompanied by a deceptive sense of I—man is many I’s, each imagining itself to be the whole, and each buffered off from awareness of the others. Each of these many I’s represents a process whereby the subtle energy of consciousness is absorbed and degraded, a process that Gurdjieff termed “identification.” Man identifies—that is, squanders his conscious energy, with every passing thought, impulse, and sensation. This state of affairs takes the form of a continuous self-deception and a continuous procession of egoistic emotions, such as anger, self-pity, sentimentality, and fear which are of such a pervasively painful nature that man is constantly driven to ameliorate this condition through the endless pursuit of social recognition, sensory pleasure, or the vague and unrealizable goal of “happiness.”
[/quote]

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

If Goebbels = Nazi = bad guy (the sense you are using him in) then you are close to being hoisted by your own petard. Careful, you'll be calling yourself a Nazi next.

Dude, where are you from? where you live? just answer to this question.

Poisoning the well. Why is tsensor less reliable as a news source than, say, Fortruss?
Butusov is a patriot. Is that a bad thing? Putin is a patriot (amplified because of his position as leader of a state). Are you a patriot?

"censor" - a news source, what?? only for sheeps, which are "patriots" of Ukraine. I live here, if you still do not understand it. If Butusov is a patriot, I am Jesus Christ, then.
you're so naive and stupid 'coz you can not realize fact what is the essence of Ukrainian media, for what they write all this bullshit. but, of course, for you it is holly truth! so continue to eat these slops.

What is a patriot? to call to kill everyone who does not agree with you? It is these "patriots" here in Ukraine. They shout about continuation of war, but "for some reason" they do not go there. why are not you in trenches with the "patriots" in "ATO"? because there is evil Putin kills those whom Ukrainian army want to protect, killing them! how it can be such an idiot? you're a zombie.

It sounds as if anyone who challenges your picture of reality is the cause of conflict and provocation. I guess that's true! What is causing that sense of 'conflict' and 'provocation'?

this is exactly what belongs to you!
"Russian invasion, terrorists, Chechens!" how name for those who launch MISSILES on their OWN cities? terrorists? hence you admit that the Ukrainian army are terrorists? and they "fighting" against poor pensioners and children, "save" them from unseen Putin who always located in Donbas?
if people do not want to live under the dictatorship of Nazis, it means they have to be killed because they dared to insult Nazis by its refusal?

Why do you need Donbas? return it to yourself together with residents? a good way to return! oh yeah, they pray for Kiev annihilates them. to wipe it all off the face of earth? and who will then rebuild Donbas from scratch and work there in mines? citizens of Lviv and Kiev? they do not work in mines, they are "elite of nation". So what the hell goes this war for you?

and thus you dare to insinuate that I am a Nazi? it also do "patriots" of Ukraine - blaming others for what they are doing themselves.

and again you are doing now the same thing that's all "conscious patriots" of Ukraine: you gut-wrenching my words inside out. and so I'm not going to say anything more to you - because it does not make sense, it is a conversation with a pillar. if you understand nothing, you can not see obvious things, all my words here is just empty sound for you. so I'm not going to waste my time and energy here - people like you I see dozens every day.

"when a finger pointing to sky, the fool looks at finger."

I will only say one thing: just go to hell, or to U.S. embassy - because it's one and the same. run to Nuland for cookies, because you're so great and independent Ukrainian, yeap!

 

[Joe]

You clearly are massively emotional about the situation in Ukraine. Many are. Are you aware that emotion will distort your 'reading machine'? Do you have a bias to declare? Why is it you want one side to win so much? Have you tried to find the root of that desire?

Give over with the BS manipulative nonsense Be. Just because someone is emotional about a situation does not necessarily mean they are wrong.

Lumiere is pretty much on the money with everything he has said about Ukraine. The Kiev government is a crassly obvious puppet regime installed by Washington. It is now following the dictates of Washington and the IMF etc. in attempting to prevent Eastern Ukrainian independence by way of a large scale military offensive.

The people of Eastern Ukraine have every right under "international law" (such as it is) to declare independence and it is unconscionable that they are being bombed to try and force them to give up that right.

 

[Niall]

Comment: …The Ukraine war is escalating and not looking good for Kiev.

I know it's a fast-moving war situation and it's difficult to be sure of what's going on, but SOTT are daydreaming at the wheel. Confirmation bias: the war is 'not looking good for Kiev' because SOTT wants the war not to be good for Kiev.

The actual emerging story is that Ukraine is acquitting itself impressively in the recent intense fighting. Despite the much vaunted assaults of a confident and well equipped enemy the Ukrainian line has withstood the assault along the entire length of the front. It is a formidable and significant achievement.

Yuri Butusov 2.2.15 (Butusov is a bright guy, MP on the military staff of the National Guard, often its critic. He is capable of reporting the bad with the good. I believe this report possibly comes from the 'cauldron' of Debaltseve, supposedly encircled according to claims from the Russian side.

<snip>

I don't know when the probable failure of the offensive will filter through to pro-Russian reporters (SOTT included) and if the course of these events will be given their true delineation. The talk on pro-Russian sites has been of a string of 'NAF' victories, leading to the successful sealing of the Debaltseve bridgehead. (The UAF always claimed the 'Road of Life', M-103 was open and under their control.) If the reports above are accurate, Debaltseve, with its 5-10,000 Ukrainian troops has not fallen, nor is it about to. After accusing the Ukrainian side of provoking the escalation, the massive storming operations proclaimed by Zaharchenko have stalled.

My goodness, I had no idea the Brookings Institution was 'pro-Russian'...

7 reasons why Russia-backed separatists are winning in Ukraine

Gus Lubin, Business Insider - Feb. 4, 2015

The situation is Ukraine is bad and getting worse, to the point where the U.S. is considering sending lethal aid as many experts are saying America is running out of time to blunt Russian aggression against Kiev.

A new report by the Atlantic Council, with the Brookings Institution, and the Chicago Council on Global Affairs calls for three billions of dollars in aid, including weapons.

The report details why the Russia-backed separatists are winning:

Here's a look at the military situation in eastern Ukraine:

And here's a look at the casualties over time:

Maybe you should send your sitreps to the White House? It might save them a few billion$. Clearly, according to your assessment, Kiev doesn't need the hardware.

 

[thorbiorn]

Thank you Aeneas for posting the talk by Nataliya Vitrenko. She had been silent for quite a while, and I was happy to learn she is alive and fine.

The other day I found this page about the history of how the Ukraine got into the situation it is in now, I am not convinced the heading is true, nevertheless it is interesting and adds one more layer to what later happened. The organizer was one of the oligarchs I mentioned earlier. His name is Viktor Pinchuk. About him the Wiki says:

[...]
Pinchuk was born in 1960 in Kyiv to Jewish parents[3][4] who moved to the industrial city of Dnipropetrovsk. He graduated from Dnipropetrovsk Metallurgical Institute in 1983, 7 years later he founded Interpipe Company on the basis of his patented innovations which were successfully adopted by leading metallurgical factories in the USSR.
[...]
In 2004 Pinchuk created the Yalta European Strategy (YES) - an international independent organization that is promoting Ukraine joining the European Union. Its annual summer meeting in Yalta has become the main high-level Ukraine-EU forum for debate and policy recommendations development. At the recent annual meetings among others, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Tony Blair, Stefan Fule, Paul Krugman, Alexei Kudrin, Shimon Peres, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Larry Summers and other political and business leaders were present to discuss Ukraine's European perspectives and global challenges. Pinchuk has long promoted closer ties between Ukraine and the EU.[9]
[...]

I thought it was interesting that he apparently earned his initial money from inventions. Anyhow, here is an anlyses of the Yalta meeting just before the Maidan.

Washington’s Iron Curtain
06/09/14
Diana Johnstone

[...]
It Was All Planned at Yalta

In September 2013, one of Ukraine’s richest oligarchs, Viktor Pinchuk, paid for an elite strategic conference on Ukraine’s future that was held in the same Palace in Yalta, Crimea, where Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill met to decide the future of Europe in 1945. The Economist, one of the elite media reporting on what it called a “display of fierce diplomacy”, stated that: “The future of Ukraine, a country of 48m people, and of Europe was being decided in real time.” The participants included Bill and Hillary Clinton, former CIA head General David Petraeus, former U.S. Treasury secretary Lawrence Summers, former World Bank head Robert Zoellick, Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt, Shimon Peres, Tony Blair, Gerhard Schröder, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Mario Monti, Lithuanian president Dalia Grybauskaite, and Poland’s influential foreign minister Radek Sikorski. Both President Viktor Yanukovych, deposed five months later, and his recently elected successor Petro Poroshenko were present. Former U.S. energy secretary Bill Richardson was there to talk about the shale-gas revolution which the United States hopes to use to weaken Russia by substituting fracking for Russia’s natural gas reserves. The center of discussion was the “Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement” (DCFTA) between Ukraine and the European Union, and the prospect of Ukraine’s integration with the West. The general tone was euphoria over the prospect of breaking Ukraine’s ties with Russia in favor of the West.

Conspiracy against Russia? Not at all. Unlike Bilderberg, the proceedings were not secret. Facing a dozen or so American VIPs and a large sampling of the European political elite was a Putin adviser named Sergei Glazyev, who made Russia’s position perfectly clear.

Glazyev injected a note of political and economic realism into the conference. Forbes reported at the time on the “stark difference” between the Russian and Western views “not over the advisability of Ukraine’s integration with the EU but over its likely impact.” In contrast to Western euphoria, the Russian view was based on “very specific and pointed economic criticisms” about the Trade Agreement’s impact on Ukraine’s economy, noting that Ukraine was running an enormous foreign accounts deficit, funded with foreign borrowing, and that the resulting substantial increase in Western imports could only swell the deficit. Ukraine “will either default on its debts or require a sizable bailout”.

The Forbes reporter concluded that “the Russian position is far closer to the truth than the happy talk coming from Brussels and Kiev.”

As for the political impact, Glazyev pointed out that the Russian-speaking minority in Eastern Ukraine might move to split the country in protest against cutting ties with Russia, and that Russia would be legally entitled to support them, according to The Times of London.

In short, while planning to incorporate Ukraine into the Western sphere, Western leaders were perfectly aware that this move would entail serious problems with Russian-speaking Ukrainians, and with Russia itself. Rather than seeking to work out a compromise, Western leaders decided to forge ahead and to blame Russia for whatever would go wrong. What went wrong first was that Yanukovych got cold feet faced with the economic collapse implied by the Trade Agreement with the European Union. He postponed signing, hoping for a better deal. Since none of this was explained clearly to the Ukrainian public, outraged protests ensued, which were rapidly exploited by the United States… against Russia.

That was one and a half year ago and now? One translator and commentator on Fort Russ gives his or her 2 cents about the prospects for this year: http://fortruss.blogspot.dk/2015/02/peace-victory-or-doomsday-ukraines.html

 

[Joe]

Dude, where are you from? where you live? just answer to this question.

Be is most likely English.

 

[thorbiorn]

In an earlier post Be recommended Yuri Butusov This is his latest site report which after yandex looks like this:

The aggravation of the situation on the springboard Debaltsevo.

The military command of Ukraine is under the full influence of the political leadership. We need a competent strategic decisions. But no one engaged in military strategy - it is replaced by a diplomatic strategy. It is very dangerous.

It is necessary to solve the problem Debaltsevo arc. This problem exists, and it escalates. Our troops won a defensive battle and repelled all attempts of the enemy to destroy the bridgehead. But the configuration of the front and the tactical environment is not favourable. The situation on the springboard is complicated, and it requires solutions. Immediate solutions - today. It's all very difficult, and the war continues in full scale. Plus the command ATO and the General staff is not promptly react to changing circumstances. You know, there is a lot of controversy, but the result of exchanges are zero. We have to move and not stand still and wait. Need to take the initiative. In the evening I will write an overview of the situation at the front.

I have no comments to this one, he appears less optimistic than the other day, but quite in tune with what many observers have been writing since the end of January.

From the other posts, I get Yuri Butusov is cheering for the war team. On the homepage he posted that Porshenko says there is enough money to pay each soldier 50 $ for active duty day at the front. I was bit astonished, but that is what they say. I post it using yandex and assuming it is not a complete joke, but I could be wrong.

04.02.15 09:55
Poroshenko: the budget has the money to pay the soldiers a thousand UAH per day in battle
Payment servicemen thousand hryvnia per day in a combat situation will not require changes to the state budget, approved by the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko.

It is reported by the Censor.NOT referring to Interfax-Ukraine.

"We sent (on defense. - Ed.) 5.3% of gross domestic product, is the amount which exceeds 86 billion, and within the current expenses of the Ministry of defence we have planned these payments," said P. Poroshenko said at a briefing in Kharkiv on Tuesday.

He also denied reports that the payments for each day of direct participation in hostilities is not provided in the resolution, adopted by the Cabinet of Ministers on 1 February.

"I'm the President, which actively uses social networks. In the last 1-2 days was a special ballot that the decision taken on my behalf, some of the very inattentive authors could not find phrase about 1000 UAH per day to anyone who participates directly in hostilities. For those who cannot find - Stepan Timofeevich (Poltorak, defense Minister - Interfax) brought a copy of this resolution," said P. Poroshenko.

As reported, on 1 February, the Prime Minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyuk has signed the decree of the Cabinet of Ministers, which provides for additional payments to servicemen for the performance of combat tasks and destruction of military equipment headed militants.

As reported on Sunday, the press service of the Cabinet, the Prime Minister said that this resolution are determined by the total amount of remuneration for all military personnel: "One who takes part in anti-terrorist operations, will receive twice as much cash reward, than if it is outside the territory of the antiterrorist operation. For each day of stay in the battle, that is, the execution of combat missions, each soldier: a soldier or General receives a further 1000 UAH," he said.

Of Yuri Butusov's 115000 followers, this one has got 2529 likes and 457 shares!

At the moment, I read somewhere, the soldiers get 70 USD per month and international mercenaries 2500 USD. Poroshenko is running a country that is in deep trouble, and that has big debts, and and and .... but then, if they privatize everything, and get a bit of money from big daddy then maybe, but will the poor people have a country left to live in when the war is over one day, after they have spent their lives fighting a war for someone else?

 

[griffin]

Dude, where are you from? where you live? just answer to this question.

Be is most likely English.

Check his IP address using the whois command. That will tell you where his ISP is located.

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

Check his IP address using the whois command. That will tell you where his ISP is located.

Yes, but I would like to he answered - how much he is open and honest. I have twice asked this question in a few months, he ignores it.

 

[Lumiere_du_Code]

In an earlier post Be recommended Yuri Butusov This is his latest site report which after yandex looks like this:
<...>

I suppose not everyone here knows who this Butusov. this slippery venal eel, which puts "news" and materials on request of oligarchs, he is them doggy on chain.
once on his website was an article where editors forgot to erase correspondence with him. there was "put to these blockheads [meaning Ukrainians who reads this "media"] our BS, they will swallow it, and after half an hour, remove and publish a completely different nonsense, they will not even notice."
these words were in article itself, which they have published - the same "BS for stupids."

this is Butusov, which Be calls a brillant guy and patriot. there's a lot about him, I will not enumerate all of this, because it's not worth it. I'm just striving for the truth and objectivity, especially when I see that someone is trying to spread lies here. because all these lies kills and causes suffering to thousands of people in Ukraine.

sorry if anywhere my words sound sharply.

 

[Jeremy F Kreuz]

Preparations for a Russian Spring?

Opposition leaders in Russia have announced to the Mayor of Moscow their intention to hold a mass demonstration in Moscow on March 1st.
It is supposed to be called "Anti-crisis march: Spring", among the signatories of the declaration are Alexey Navalny and M. Khodorkovsky. While the action is against the "economical crisis" in Russia, Khodorkovsky gives an explanation of his participation to the initiative completely based on the russian involvement in the war in Ukraine.

An interview by "Echo of Moscow" with Khodorkovsky on the subject of the protest action is here (in Russian):
http://khodorkovsky.ru/mbh/press/razvorot-vesna/

Here are some excerpts - published on his own website:

title: "A significant part of our problems is linked to the war in Ukraine"

the Spring Action March is very important because there is planned another military adventure, expanding it in the spring. And we've already lost a lot, and a lot of people lost a lot of money and lost. And in general, people need to understand that we will lose even more, and consider whether to do it or go to the authorities in order to stop this outrage. (...)

We all know what is going on now in the east of Ukraine, and we all know that an escalation is scheduled for the spring towards Mariupol and Kherson. And I very much hope that the Russian civil society is able to stop, because it is a new loss, new big losses. (...)

In my opinion, we need action. Here is a practical action - to explain to people, our fellow citizens, how much is actually costing us this war in Ukraine and in the human point of view and from a financial point of view; and by enabling people to express themselves, whether they want to spend the lives of our children and the lives of our brothers in Ukraine, our, not so big financial capacity to keep this mess. I personally believe that it is necessary to stop since a long time. This is a very practical specific task given the fact that we see the spring outbreak of hostilities has almost begun."

 

[griffin]

Opposition leaders in Russia have announced to the Mayor of Moscow their intention to hold a mass demonstration in Moscow on March 1st.
It is supposed to be called "Anti-crisis march: Spring", among the signatories of the declaration are Alexey Navalny and M. Khodorkovsky.

These are the leaders of the 'European integrationist' fifth-column political opposition to the Russian government. It's supported by US NGOs, but doesn't have much support among the Russian population.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Opposition leaders in Russia have announced to the Mayor of Moscow their intention to hold a mass demonstration in Moscow on March 1st.
It is supposed to be called "Anti-crisis march: Spring", among the signatories of the declaration are Alexey Navalny and M. Khodorkovsky.

These are the leaders of the 'European integrationist' fifth-column political opposition to the Russian government. It's supported by US NGOs, but doesn't have much support among the Russian population.

Exactly. The more the Empire and its vassals have attacked Russia and Putin, the more his already high popularity has soared. These fifth column elements are on the defensive in Russia now with the BS propaganda they've been spewing all these years. However, it may be good to keep in mind that the totally foreign, non-Russian Bolshevik Revolution happened with a tiny minority supporting/participating....