Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis

[hesperides]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Quote from Luc

What makes it so fascinating I think is that Collingwood doesn't just describe how this or that came into being historically; it's an attempt to describe the very fabric of reality, the structure behind thought, meta-laws that guide the collective thought of humanity that are otherwise invisible. This also makes it a demanding read - what he talks about takes place one level higher than ordinary philosophy, I think. It's not just shuffling around abstract fancies in one's head, it goes beyond that, he really pierces the illusion (or at least attempts to do so) that is our ordinary mental life. Don't know, I can't describe it better.

I couldn't have said it in any better way, Luc. As I finished reading the second chapter of IoH, I suddenly realized that Collingwood was describing and explaining the very core of how our worldview with its ideologies, its sacred cows, came into being along many centuries thanks to the unlimited power of our imagination and mind.

I also finally started to really understand why Laura´s first passion lays in history. Understanding history is understanding life as an ongoing process, nothing is fixed aside of our proverbial needs to control or deny reality as it is. What a waste of time seeing where our collective potential has been leading us in our days. That´s why I agree his books embody the mysterious gems of the non linear life structure in man.

I´m now all excited to read SM. First I wanted to reread part of IoH as I was alternating between the English and Spanish version because of some things I wasn´t sure I had grasped correctly, but I´ve decided to go directly with Collingwood´s second recommended book, and maybe have another read of both once I´ll be even more familiarized with his style of writing and peculiar art of setting step after step his explanations, to say the least, - in certain sense it reminds me of Agatha Christie´s work as a detective

 

[shellycheval]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Quote from: shellycheval on Yesterday at 06:47:44 AM

Laura
Quote

"the most efficient conductor of chemical compounds for low-wave frequency charge."

Fascinating. So I will assume ( ) that this conductor has not been determined yet?

Laura mentioned an idea for that here:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,43133.0.html

Thank you Bluelamp--I'll start catching up with that thread soon.

 

[A Jay]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

I finished Speculum Mentis last night, and IoH a few weeks ago. Both required my full attention to grasp, and were well worth the effort. After reading SM, I have a much better conception and understanding of what the C's were saying here:

Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the world will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future."

The world around us is a reflection of our own minds. In other words, how we see the world around us is a reflection of who we are and what we think. For the artist, the religious, and the scientist the world exists, but only to be overcome, ignored, or shut out. For the scientist the world is to be overcome so as to conform to the abstract concepts he considers to be real. For the religious reality must be ignored as their religious symbols are not real and yet are asserted as such. For the artist reality is to be shut out because what is real for him is not the real world but imagination. They can thus be observed by the philosopher as mind stuck in an underdeveloped state. A dream, as none of these conceptions of reality are real, in the 'past', which isn't (or rather isn't exclusively) temporal but a point of development. Those who see what mind is and mind's ultimate aim, to know itself, and pay strict attention to what the world around them is telling them about themselves become the reality of the 'future', which can be understood as the further developing and expanding of mind's knowledge of itself.

Practically the whole book to me was an expansion of the C's cosmology, and in a similar way IoH was an expansion on G's conception of self-remembering.

For if true history is really the history of mind, then real self-remembering isn't exclusive to the observation of one's own thoughts and actions. Though the observation of one's internal reality is an integral part of self-remembering, this concept must be expanded to incorporate the history of mind as well. For if to know what man is he must know what man has done, then to know what mind is he must know what and how mind has thought. Which is also what makes knowledge of psychology so important for our purposes.

Thank you again for the recommendations, Laura!

 

[Laura]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Practically the whole book to me was an expansion of the C's cosmology, and in a similar way IoH was an expansion on G's conception of self-remembering.

That was exactly the impression I got from it. And yes, it takes attention, but that's all good because it's like a workout for the brain!

For if true history is really the history of mind, then real self-remembering isn't exclusive to the observation of one's own thoughts and actions. Though the observation of one's internal reality is an integral part of self-remembering, this concept must be expanded to incorporate the history of mind as well. For if to know what man is he must know what man has done, then to know what mind is he must know what and how mind has thought. Which is also what makes knowledge of psychology so important for our purposes.

Yes, that's another take-home from these books. And, as you noted, it is a total expansion of the Cs "Life is Religion" statement.

 

[3DStudent]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Just wanted to point out that if you order this copy of Speculum Mentis from Amazon it has some extra pages: part V twice. The one I received has a publishing date of 2011 and is from Read Books Ltd., and the cover is the one attached below this post. https://www.amazon.com/Speculum-Mentis-R-G-Collingwood/dp/1473302676

It stops at page 200 and the next page is 154, part V Science. Then it continues and goes to the end of the book on page 327. So they inserted and extra part V Science, wasting about 4mm of book shelf space :P. But I cross referenced it to the PDF and it seems like it's all there still.

 

[Jones]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Maybe a strange question....but is anyone else getting the heebeejeebeez from the author of Anatomy?

He is writing about some disturbing material and that maybe the cause of my uneasy feelings, but to me he seems to be dealing with it in a light, almost baiting way. Aside from often making positive comparisons between himself and some of his study subjects there is also this comment: "Am I a serial killer? I have never been caught and convicted of homicide" (Pg 75 in Kindle version). An odd comment given that being caught and convicted is not the defining feature of a serial killer - rather it's whether or not he engages in serial killing.

His ability to get into the minds of his study subjects may be a function of his being immersed in the material as discussed elsewhere. But I can't help but wonder if something else is going on here.

 

[Laura]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Maybe a strange question....but is anyone else getting the heebeejeebeez from the author of Anatomy?

He is writing about some disturbing material and that maybe the cause of my uneasy feelings, but to me he seems to be dealing with it in a light, almost baiting way. Aside from often making positive comparisons between himself and some of his study subjects there is also this comment: "Am I a serial killer? I have never been caught and convicted of homicide" (Pg 75 in Kindle version). An odd comment given that being caught and convicted is not the defining feature of a serial killer - rather it's whether or not he engages in serial killing.

His ability to get into the minds of his study subjects may be a function of his being immersed in the material as discussed elsewhere. But I can't help but wonder if something else is going on here.

Just keep reading...

And yes, there is something strange about it all that we can discuss when everyone has finished reading. And, in fact, it will be very helpful, after reading Raine and Samenow to read Fallon.

 

[PERLOU]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

J'ai hâte de lire tous vos commentaires quand vous aurez fini de lire ces livres dont la traduction en Français n'existe pas... Merci à tous pour vos partages qui me mettent l'eau à la bouche...

I can not wait to read all your comments when you finish reading these books whose translation into French does not exist ... Thank you all for your shares that put me in the mouth ...

 

[maxtree]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

"Speculum Mentis" arrived today! I have already read "The Idea of History" so I know that a few days of brain-stretching are awaiting me.
At the moment I am in the middle of "Anatomy of violence" and finished Tamgidi.
Maybe I will reread them all, this time in the right order, which was not possible because the books arrived in random order.

 

[biala84]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology



I will wait till almost middle beginning :D to read a books, but i'm reading another book...... i don't know why, but i can't stay focus doing one thing while knowing everything is changing so fast :D i know i have to cut it slowly, but i like to see the world now in this moment. I'm glad that we can share Our experience and knowledge in very important moment on the planeth eart and All the Universe :) Have a nice day 8)

 

[Laura]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

I will wait till almost middle beginning :D to read a books, but i'm reading another book...... i don't know why, but i can't stay focus doing one thing while knowing everything is changing so fast :D i know i have to cut it slowly, but i like to see the world now in this moment. I'm glad that we can share Our experience and knowledge in very important moment on the planeth eart and All the Universe :) Have a nice day 8)

Just remember, training yourself to STAY focused is part of the cortex building activity. That is, you are building your antenna, your receivership capability.

I've read literally thousands of books, gleaning tons of information that enable me to "see through" texts and know when one or another is special and should be read by everyone. Don't throw that advantage away.

 

[biala84]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Ok i will :) Thank U

 

[biala84]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

I will wait till almost middle beginning :D to read a books, but i'm reading another book...... i don't know why, but i can't stay focus doing one thing while knowing everything is changing so fast :D i know i have to cut it slowly, but i like to see the world now in this moment. I'm glad that we can share Our experience and knowledge in very important moment on the planeth eart and All the Universe :) Have a nice day 8)

Just remember, training yourself to STAY focused is part of the cortex building activity. That is, you are building your antenna, your receivership capability.

I've read literally thousands of books, gleaning tons of information that enable me to "see through" texts and know when one or another is special and should be read by everyone. Don't throw that advantage away.

Yes thank U :) It's my pleasure to hear this kind of advice :) I will have to start, because i have days like i ' m toudly discontrol :/ in the meaning to stay focus on the things and i think this my real weakness :/

 

[whitecoast]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

A lot of the discussion about learning to think about thinking in this thread reminded me of the first part of David DiSalvo's book "Brain Changer", particularly the sections about metacognition and mentalization.

DiSalvo begins by mapping out the standard feedback loop of the mind, which has the stages of evidence, relevance, consequence, and action (which produces new evidence). All our conscious and unconscious processes map to these loops, which form independent modules that we can grow better at choosing between based on our metacognitive ability.

He defines the mind as 3 portions, which are:
the system (basically the same thing as the adaptive unconscious, with some overlap with the conscious),
the mental theater (representation, or epistemic thoughts, feelings, and sensations)
metacognition (also known as metarepresentation, where we have higher order thoughts about things in our mental theater).

In a paper DiSalvo cites, metacognition is divided into the following four categories. (For more details you can go here: _http://www.effectuation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Haynie_et_al-2009-Entrepreneurship_Theory_and_Practice-1.pdf).

Metacognitive knowledge: the extent to which the individual relies on what is already known about oneself, other people, tasks, and strategy when engaging in the process of generating multiple decision frameworks focused on interpreting, planning, and implementing goals.It is the quality and quality of knowledge we are looping into the mental theater..

Metacognitive choice: the extent to which the individual engages in the active process of selecting from multiple decision frameworks the one that best interprets, plans, and implements a response for the purpose of “managing” a changing environment. It is the amount of conscious control we are exerting over our thoughts and feelings in the mental theater.

Metacognitive experience: be the extent to which the individual relies on idiosyncratic experiences, emotions, and intuitions when
engaging in the process of generating multiple decision frameworks focused on interpreting, planning, and implementing goals. It is what we learn from the knowledge in the mental theatre, and how this experience enables us to get even better at the entire process.

Metacognitive monitoring: seeking and using feedback to reevaluate goal orientation, metacognitive knowledge, metacognitive experience, and metacognitive choice. It is the frequency and efficiency with which we are evaluating knowledge in the mental theater.

The more metacognitively aware you are, the less you use autopilot to guide your thinking processes. Another way to think of metacognitive awareness is as the conscious act of coming up with strategies that select among available cognitive responses. One researcher compared metacognitive awareness to a volume control: the higher we can raise the metacognitive volume, the more aware we are of possible thinking responses.

Later chapters go on to talk about mentalization, or how we develop a theory of mind to help us understand ourselves (frist order intentionality), how others think (second order intentionality), how others think about how others think (third order intentionality), as well as higher orders of intentionality some very bright people can engage in. One item I remember from Thinking Fast and Slow was that theory of mind begins to develop at a preconscous level, which in the words of DiSalvo would mean that this ability to re-enact the thinking of others originates in unconscious system.

A part of me wonders how this squares up with Collingwood's thoughts in The Idea of History about how the re-enactment of the thoughts of another is a purely mental exercise.

 

[Laura]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

A part of me wonders how this squares up with Collingwood's thoughts in The Idea of History about how the re-enactment of the thoughts of another is a purely mental exercise.

Have you read Collingwood?