Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Laura said:
whitecoast said:
A part of me wonders how this squares up with Collingwood's thoughts in The Idea of History about how the re-enactment of the thoughts of another is a purely mental exercise.

Have you read Collingwood?

Yeah. I'm in the process of rereading them while dividing my time between Anatomy of Violence and another book.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

whitecoast said:
Laura said:
whitecoast said:
A part of me wonders how this squares up with Collingwood's thoughts in The Idea of History about how the re-enactment of the thoughts of another is a purely mental exercise.

Have you read Collingwood?

Yeah. I'm in the process of rereading them while dividing my time between Anatomy of Violence and another book.
I think this may be something Collingwood would bring up as an example of a bad idea via positivism. If the categorizing was just limited to the mental theater outside of rational thought like raw feelings or appetite (urges) then Collingwood might be OK with someone researching it (though it's not what Collingwood himself is into). For the record I'm 2/3rds done with The Idea of History so this comment is based on that part.

Somebody in a Facebook group I'm in posted this meme:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

Scientism is a term generally used to describe the cosmetic application of science in unwarranted situations not covered by the scientific method. In philosophy of science, the term "scientism" frequently implies a critique of the more extreme expressions of logical positivism... the belief that the methods of natural science, or the categories and things recognized in natural science, form the only proper elements in any philosophical or other inquiry...

It may be more that there are bad definitions out there for the "scientific method" (like positivism ones) since good definitions could define the use of different methods as needed.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

whitecoast said:
Later chapters go on to talk about mentalization, or how we develop a theory of mind to help us understand ourselves (frist order intentionality), how others think (second order intentionality), how others think about how others think (third order intentionality), as well as higher orders of intentionality some very bright people can engage in. One item I remember from Thinking Fast and Slow was that theory of mind begins to develop at a preconscous level, which in the words of DiSalvo would mean that this ability to re-enact the thinking of others originates in unconscious system.

A part of me wonders how this squares up with Collingwood's thoughts in The Idea of History about how the re-enactment of the thoughts of another is a purely mental exercise.

In Speculum Mentis Collingwood pretty well lays it out that thought and thinking starts most fundamentally as art or imagination, i.e. thought that doesn't realize it's thought. Which, in other words, means that for Collingwood mind and thinking start at the unconscious or preconscious level, as DiSalvo and Kahneman put it.

Bluelamp said:
It may be more that there are bad definitions out there for the "scientific method" (like positivism ones) since good definitions could define the use of different methods as needed.

Collingwood has a whole section in SM devoted to scientific thought.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Thanks for the explanation A Jay. I think I forgot about some passages in Idea and didn't properly formulate my thinking on it. I'll try again later.

Also, from SM I would actually say that Collingwood contends that the aesthetic mindset is postulation without explicit assertion, while the religious mindset is assertion without explicit thought. So from reading SM I'd say that thinking in the sense of higher order meta-cognition isn't grasped until religion (implicitly) and science (explicitly), which leaves aesthetics (as far as my own understanding goes) to be more or less arational, due to its monadic and acosmic nature. From modern cognitive science I don't think that seems to be the case. Second opinions are welcome.

I think this may be something Collingwood would bring up as an example of a bad idea via positivism. If the categorizing was just limited to the mental theater outside of rational thought like raw feelings or appetite (urges) then Collingwood might be OK with someone researching it (though it's not what Collingwood himself is into). For the record I'm 2/3rds done with The Idea of History so this comment is based on that part.

What specifically are you thinking is a bad idea "via positivism"?
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

whitecoast said:
I think this may be something Collingwood would bring up as an example of a bad idea via positivism. If the categorizing was just limited to the mental theater outside of rational thought like raw feelings or appetite (urges) then Collingwood might be OK with someone researching it (though it's not what Collingwood himself is into). For the record I'm 2/3rds done with The Idea of History so this comment is based on that part.

What specifically are you thinking is a bad idea "via positivism"?

From The Idea of History:

Throughout this essay it has been necessary to engage in a running fight with what may be called a positivistic conception, or rather misconception, of history, as the study of successive events lying in a dead past, events to be understood as the scientist understands natural events, by classifying them and establishing relations between the classes thus defined...

To speak of the psychology of reasoning, or the psychology of the moral self (to quote the titles of two well-known books), is to misuse words and confuse issues, ascribing to a quasi-naturalistic science a subject-matter whose being and development are not natural but historical. But if psychology avoids this danger and renounces interference with what is properly the subject-matter of history, it is likely to fall back into a pure science of nature and to become a mere branch of physiology, dealing with muscular and nervous movements.

But there is a third alternative. In realizing its own rationality, mind also realizes the presence in itself of elements that are not rational... These irrational elements are the subject-matter of psychology... sensation as distinct from thought, feelings as distinct from conceptions, appetite as distinct from will...

I'm thinking Collingwood might not have liked DiSalvo's metacognition classification ideas since they deal with rational thought not just physiology or irrational elements. Some of DiSalvo's mental theater classification ideas though could fit with the irrational elements.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Bluelamp said:
I'm thinking Collingwood might not have liked DiSalvo's metacognition classification ideas since they deal with rational thought not just physiology or irrational elements. Some of DiSalvo's mental theater classification ideas though could fit with the irrational elements.

I agree. And I suggest everyone keep up with the "Hyperdimensional Politics" thread, particularly my post from this morning.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

One of the tricky things about reading this book is that when you have no idea what he's talking about, you don't know whether he will bring it all together to make sense on the next 2 pages, or whether you just need to keep rereading the current page to try and find the meaning.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

A thought in regards to IOH and Collingwood's thoughts about artistic thinking being about imagination, fantasy and beauty that there is some truly horrible and disturbing art depicting cruelty and inhumanity. It occurred to me that those that would commission, create or buy horrible, disturbing art could come from two different motivations - they may be using the art to wake people up to reality and want to disturb. Or they are sicko's and are imagining, fantasising about or find what the art depicts beautiful. 'Tony Podesta's creepy taste in art' and the Denver Airport Murals come to mind.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Laura said:
Bluelamp said:
I'm thinking Collingwood might not have liked DiSalvo's metacognition classification ideas since they deal with rational thought not just physiology or irrational elements. Some of DiSalvo's mental theater classification ideas though could fit with the irrational elements.

I agree. And I suggest everyone keep up with the "Hyperdimensional Politics" thread, particularly my post from this morning.


Pourriez vous nous donner le lien pour accéder à " Hyperdimensional Politics ", je ne le trouve pas... Merci d'avance...

Could you give us the link to access "Hyperdimensional Politics", I can not find it ... Thanks in advance ...
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

PERLOU said:
Laura said:
Bluelamp said:
I'm thinking Collingwood might not have liked DiSalvo's metacognition classification ideas since they deal with rational thought not just physiology or irrational elements. Some of DiSalvo's mental theater classification ideas though could fit with the irrational elements.

I agree. And I suggest everyone keep up with the "Hyperdimensional Politics" thread, particularly my post from this morning.


Pourriez vous nous donner le lien pour accéder à " Hyperdimensional Politics ", je ne le trouve pas... Merci d'avance...

Could you give us the link to access "Hyperdimensional Politics", I can not find it ... Thanks in advance ...

Hyperdimensional Politics
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

PERLOU said:
Laura said:
Bluelamp said:
I'm thinking Collingwood might not have liked DiSalvo's metacognition classification ideas since they deal with rational thought not just physiology or irrational elements. Some of DiSalvo's mental theater classification ideas though could fit with the irrational elements.

I agree. And I suggest everyone keep up with the "Hyperdimensional Politics" thread, particularly my post from this morning.


Pourriez vous nous donner le lien pour accéder à " Hyperdimensional Politics ", je ne le trouve pas... Merci d'avance...

Could you give us the link to access "Hyperdimensional Politics", I can not find it ... Thanks in advance ...

It's good to read this one :) It's really wake me Up. Definetly like a cold shower. I think everyone should to read this :) Have a nice sunday...
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

biala84 said:
PERLOU said:
Laura said:
Bluelamp said:
I'm thinking Collingwood might not have liked DiSalvo's metacognition classification ideas since they deal with rational thought not just physiology or irrational elements. Some of DiSalvo's mental theater classification ideas though could fit with the irrational elements.

I agree. And I suggest everyone keep up with the "Hyperdimensional Politics" thread, particularly my post from this morning.


Pourriez vous nous donner le lien pour accéder à " Hyperdimensional Politics ", je ne le trouve pas... Merci d'avance...

Could you give us the link to access "Hyperdimensional Politics", I can not find it ... Thanks in advance ...

It's good to read this one :) It's really wake me Up. Definetly like a cold shower. I think everyone should to read this :) Have a nice sunday...

I forget to give a link :D https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,45067.msg741045.html#msg741045
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Merci ALANA et BIALA pour les liens...

Thank you ALANA and BIALA for the links ...
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

monotonic said:
One of the tricky things about reading this book is that when you have no idea what he's talking about, you don't know whether he will bring it all together to make sense on the next 2 pages, or whether you just need to keep rereading the current page to try and find the meaning.

There's another alternative: start googling around whenever you encounter a name, a situation or a concept you're not familiar with. Even when Collingwood (or whoever) later on appears to wrap it all up nice and gently, the extra background knowledge you've gathered in the meantime will come to good stead.

And in stead of only 'consuming' the text at hand you enter into some sort of 'dialog' with it, which enhances the learning process considerably.

At least that's been my experience over the years doing this repeatedly. It's grown into a habit along the way which I couldn't do without anymore... ;)
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Palinurus said:
There's another alternative: start googling around whenever you encounter a name, a situation or a concept you're not familiar with. Even when Collingwood (or whoever) later on appears to wrap it all up nice and gently, the extra background knowledge you've gathered in the meantime will come to good stead.

I second that, and I can recommend the Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which contains tons of information about the various philosophical terms and traditions you may come across in Collingwood's work (although thankfully, he avoids jargon most of the time). There's also a detailed entry about Collingwood there which might help: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/collingwood/

Another good apporach I think is this: if you understood something, write it down in your own words to create a framework that you can fall back on. You can even put these thoughts in a forum draft and eventually organize it a bit and post it here, even if you haven't finished the book(s) yet. That way, when you read an argument you don't quite get, you can remember what you grasped and see it in this light. By writing it down, you make the thought "your own".

Personally, it also helps me to visualize things. For example, when Collingwood talks about the different ways of looking at history such as the "scientific way" vs. the "I am a product and part of it" way, I imagine someone looking at a timeline like a scientist looks at an experiment; as opposed to a timeline as "historical mind", which my mind expands to and becomes one with it. Or a circle where I am at some point, trying to expand my viewpoint to engulf the whole thing. Or imagining an abstract concept that is outside the world of fact as two circles as opposed to a circle where everything is combined and intertwined and so on. Once you have such images in mind, you can always come back to them, refine them, check if they make sense in light of what you read and so on.
 
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